If you are a male that dates a biological man, are you gay?

[Strike 3,999]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

In cases where some (medical experts) disagree, listen to the majority and those from this country. 

What?  This is the dumbest response ever.  Did you read the report? 

[jerryskids 5,215]

58 minutes ago, Strike said:

Why don't you practice what you preach?  I posted about the Case report when it was announced but you didn't respond.  For people interested, and that means you Jerry, please read the following.  If really interested download the full report:

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

Thanks.  I've seen summaries, but I don't think I've read the full report.

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

28 minutes ago, Strike said:

What?  This is the dumbest response ever.  Did you read the report? 

Yes. Here is a rebuttal: 

https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/

“Many of the claims in the Cass Report are inaccurate, empirically unsupported, ethically unacceptable, and grounded in prejudice.” 
 

It’s telling you what you want to hear, but the majority of medical experts in THIS country say it’s bullsh!t. 

[Fireballer 2,392]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

OK let’s say that I accepted your logic. What is the alternative? That judges with no medical knowledge rule whether or not a doctor can perform a medical procedure? Thats not acceptable to me. Thats why I say leave it up to the family. The whole thing might disgust you, or me but it’s none of our business. At least that’s the way I see it. 
Im frankly surprised, since this forum is mostly conservative, that I haven’t encountered more libertarian types here. 

I don’t have time right now to put down all my thoughts, but society has generally accepted the fact that courts make decisions if someone isn’t old enough to consent or make an informed decision.  And as far as “medical experts” are concerned, trans people aside, all you have to do is look at our USDA food guide to see that the health care industry doesn’t always have the end users well being as the priority.  

[Fireballer 2,392]

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes. Here is a rebuttal: 

https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/

“Many of the claims in the Cass Report are inaccurate, empirically unsupported, ethically unacceptable, and grounded in prejudice.” 
 

It’s telling you what you want to hear, but the majority of medical experts in THIS country say it’s bullsh!t. 

Do you just find links and post them without vetting?  Your link is not biased at all.  Did you research the author?  The guy who wrote is literally NOT IN THIS COUNTRY.  You’re laughable 

https://hanemaung.weebly.com/

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,545]

21 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes. Here is a rebuttal: 

https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/

“Many of the claims in the Cass Report are inaccurate, empirically unsupported, ethically unacceptable, and grounded in prejudice.” 
 

It’s telling you what you want to hear, but the majority of medical experts in THIS country say it’s bullsh!t. 

NO, they don't. 

That's your fever-dream wish.

[jerryskids 5,215]

20 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes. Here is a rebuttal: 

https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/

“Many of the claims in the Cass Report are inaccurate, empirically unsupported, ethically unacceptable, and grounded in prejudice.” 
 

It’s telling you what you want to hear, but the majority of medical experts in THIS country say it’s bullsh!t. 

Well, not exactly.  I did some googling.  You can find websites like GLAAD that link to all of the 3- and 4-letter lobbying/administrative medical groups like the AMA who strongly oppose state laws preventing evidence-based gender care (understandable, since they share your view that a one-size-fits-all law is bad and prevents them from practicing medicine).    These groups are basically like union heads protecting the rights of their constituents.

The AMA (run by an openly LGBTQ man btw) further points to a clinical guide by the Endocrine Society (Endocrine = hormones) "supporting" such care.  But from the guide:

Quote

Essential Points

• ...
• Hormone treatment is not recommended for pre-pubertal gender-dysphoric /gender-incongruent persons;
• For the care of youths during puberty and older adolescents, an expert multi-disciplinary team comprised of medical professionals and mental health professionals should manage treatment;
• ...

https://www.endocrine.org/clinical-practice-guidelines/gender-dysphoria-gender-incongruence

What you don't understand Tim, and I've said this before:  the more advanced the degree, the more the person presumes (1) that everyone in their field is diligent and responsible, and (2) that they absolutely completely defer to people in adjacent field.

So in this case, the Endocrine Society, along with saying a big NO to hormone treatment for pre-pubescence, is presuming an expert multi-disciplinary team has thoroughly vetted the patient, and continues to manage it through the experience.  Endocrinology's job is to safely and effectively administer the hormones, not to worry about the other stuff.  

So IMO this is not far off from where we started.  I'm open to continuing how things were before the social contagion and woke acceptance of self-diagnosis took over.  If they do the things laid out above, I do not object to it.

But they aren't, and that's the problem.

[Strike 3,999]

43 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes. Here is a rebuttal: 

https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/

“Many of the claims in the Cass Report are inaccurate, empirically unsupported, ethically unacceptable, and grounded in prejudice.” 
 

It’s telling you what you want to hear, but the majority of medical experts in THIS country say it’s bullsh!t. 

Nope.  As I always say, I look for data.  Looked up one of the first "studies" cited in your link and here is their data:

Quote

 

Data were from an online nonprobability sample collected between October and December 2020 of 34,759 youth aged 13–24 who resided in the U.S. and identified as LGBTQ.

 

 

 

So, a bunch of random surveys.  We need better data than that.  Oh, and I looked up the authors of that study.  They're from something called "The Trevor Project" which is an organization dedicated to suicide prevention for alphabet people.  A worthy cause but not exactly unbiased.

Not to mention that the first thing your link says is:

 

Quote

Over the past decade, the United Kingdom has become an increasingly hostile place for trans people, especially for trans youth

I reject that assertion.  Just because a country is doing the right thing and formulating policy based on data, and trying to collect valid data for future policy decisions, doesn't make them hostile.  There is a marked difference between the tone of the Cass study and the OPINION article you linked.  That should be your first clue that your link isn't credible.   Of course, you go an obviously biased site to get your rebuttal.  I suggest you read the Cass study.  Unlike your link, it's written like an adult, using data and clearly supporting it's conclusions.  It's sad that you refuse to educate yourself. 

Also worth noting - As a result of the Cass report, 16 senior psychologists, some of whom worked in the GIDS clinics, wrote a public letter of apology for their profession and it's contributions to this issue. 

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2024/apr/21/we-are-ashamed-of-role-psychology-played-gender-care-observer-letters

Oh, and I don't believe you read the Cass report.  For one thing, it's 140 someodd pages and I know you don't have the attention span to get past 5, and that's assuming lots of pictures.  Not to mention that the Cass study leaves open the possibility for hormone treatments and puberty blockers, when the right safeguards have been met and the proper protocols have been followed to ensure it's a proper course of treatment.  That's what's missing in other places, especially the U.S.

Keep up with this stance.  I want it clearly documented for the day when the U.S. catches up with the rest of the world and stops trying to mutilate kids.  I don't want you to be able to pretend you weren't at the front of the line leading that witch hunt.

 

 

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Nope.  As I always say, I look for data.  Looked up one of the first "studies" cited in your link and here is their data:

So, a bunch of random surveys.  We need better data than that.  Oh, and I looked up the authors of that study.  They're from something called "The Trevor Project" which is an organization dedicated to suicide prevention for alphabet people.  A worthy cause but not exactly unbiased.

Not to mention that the first thing your link says is:

 

I reject that assertion.  Just because a country is doing the right thing and formulating policy based on data, and trying to collect valid data for future policy decisions, doesn't make them hostile.  There is a marked difference between the tone of the Cass study and the OPINION article you linked.  That should be your first clue that your link isn't credible.   Of course, you go an obviously biased site to get your rebuttal.  I suggest you read the Cass study.  Unlike your link, it's written like an adult, using data and clearly supporting it's conclusions.  It's sad that you refuse to educate yourself. 

Also worth noting - As a result of the Cass report, 16 senior psychologists, some of whom worked in the GIDS clinics, wrote a public letter of apology for their profession and it's contributions to this issue. 

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2024/apr/21/we-are-ashamed-of-role-psychology-played-gender-care-observer-letters

Oh, and I don't believe you read the Cass report.  For one thing, it's 140 someodd pages and I know you don't have the attention span to get past 5, and that's assuming lots of pictures.  Not to mention that the Cass study leaves open the possibility for hormone treatments and puberty blockers, when the right safeguards have been met and the proper protocols have been followed to ensure it's a proper course of treatment.  That's what's missing in other places, especially the U.S.

Keep up with this stance.  I want it clearly documented for the day when the U.S. catches up with the rest of the world and stops trying to mutilate kids.  I don't want you to be able to pretend you weren't at the front of the line leading that witch hunt.

 

 

I won’t pretend anything. I side with the medical experts. When the majority change their opinion I will too. 

I don’t have any dog in this hunt other than I believe in respecting people and general acceptance and you seem to want to line up on the intolerant side. 

[Maximum Overkill 681]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

I believe in respecting people and general acceptance and you seem to want to line up on the intolerant side. 

F them and their Liberal Attention seeking BS. 

You're a Man or a Woman, get over it!!! 

Stop coddling crazy people 

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

9 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

F them and their Liberal Attention seeking BS. 

You're a Man or a Woman, get over it!!! 

Stop coddling crazy people 

See @jerryskids and @Strike here is my problem: you guys want to rely on rather controversial (or at the very least highly disputed) medical opinion to prove your point, and yet you’re on the same side as this guy who basically just peddles bigotry and intolerance. Can you see why I’m skeptical? 
 

[jerryskids 5,215]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

See @jerryskids and @Strike here is my problem: you guys want to rely on rather controversial (or at the very least highly disputed) medical opinion to prove your point, and yet you’re on the same side as this guy who basically just peddles bigotry and intolerance. Can you see why I’m skeptical? 
 

You rely on controversial and highly disputed data as well, and I could go find plenty of people on the interwebs that say to medically trans any kid who says they are trans.

I don't get your point.

[Maximum Overkill 681]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Can you see why I’m skeptical? 

Sceptical of what? It's a mental disorder, get them help, don't applaud them like they accomplished something. 

[Fireballer 2,392]

33 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I won’t pretend anything. I side with the medical experts. When the majority change their opinion I will too. 

I don’t have any dog in this hunt other than I believe in respecting people and general acceptance and you seem to want to line up on the intolerant side. 

Tim, in response to @jerryskids, you made a post dismissing medical experts from other countries.  In support of your post, you posted a link to an opinion piece from….England.  Nobody seriously thinks you’ve delved into any real info on this subject.  You’re a headline chaser.

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

6 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Tim, in response to @jerryskids, you made a post dismissing medical experts from other countries.  In support of your post, you posted a link to an opinion piece from….England.  Nobody seriously thinks you’ve delved into any real info on this subject.  You’re a headline chaser.

I don’t dismiss anything from other countries. I wrote that when there is a disagreement I tended to rely more on what our experts here say. 

[Fireballer 2,392]

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t dismiss anything from other countries. I wrote that when there is a disagreement I tended to rely more on what our experts here say.

So, why don’t you default to the American experts that are critical of our trans care over the doctor you linked to? 

[Strike 3,999]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

See @jerryskids and @Strike here is my problem: you guys want to rely on rather controversial (or at the very least highly disputed) medical opinion to prove your point, and yet you’re on the same side as this guy who basically just peddles bigotry and intolerance. Can you see why I’m skeptical? 
 

England's NHS is neither disputed nor controversial.  Most countries have followed the lead of countries pulling back on medical gender affirming care until more research is done.  There is no disputing some of the negative effects of some of these treatments and the positive outcomes ARE disputed.  The recommendations in the Cass report don't even preclude medical treatment of gender dysphoria, which you'd know if you bothered to read it.   The U.S. is the outlier.  Hitching your wagon the stance of people in the U.S. is gonna bite you in the butt. 

[Strike 3,999]

12 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

So, why don’t you default to the American experts that are critical of our trans care over the doctor you linked to? 

I've told you all a bunch of times.  Tim forms an opinion and then looks for supporting evidence, regardless of how specious that evidence is.  If I were to support an argument for banning abortion with links to a pro-life site he'd discount it immediately, but he posts links to a site just as questionable to support the opinion he's formed regarding gender affirming care, all the while calling a report commissioned by the NHS in England disputed and controversial, which is ridiculous.  The NHS said the following about the Cass report:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/nhs-englands-response-to-the-final-report-of-the-independent-review-of-gender-identity-services-for-children-and-young-people/

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

31 minutes ago, Strike said:

I've told you all a bunch of times.  Tim forms an opinion and then looks for supporting evidence, regardless of how specious that evidence is.  If I were to support an argument for banning abortion with links to a pro-life site he'd discount it immediately, but he posts links to a site just as questionable to support the opinion he's formed regarding gender affirming care, all the while calling a report commissioned by the NHS in England disputed and controversial, which is ridiculous.  The NHS said the following about the Cass report:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/nhs-englands-response-to-the-final-report-of-the-independent-review-of-gender-identity-services-for-children-and-young-people/

What you just described about me is what you do, not me 

[jerryskids 5,215]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

What you just described about me is what you do, not me 

Uh, you've stopped responding to me in this thread because I'm posting too much data.  Thoughts on my endocrinology post?

All you've posted is op-ed pieces with a lot of mean words.

[Strike 3,999]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

What you just described about me is what you do, not me 

You just love making stuff up.  Love me or hate me, very few people on this forum will dispute that I form my opinions based on data and I back that sh*t up, just as I did today.  I have since the day I joined almost 20 years ago.  Then we have you who I have shown to be factually wrong on at least 10 occasions since you started posting here in earnest, which is what 6 months?  Remember when you thought Trump's civil case in NY was about Taxes, and accused me of clinging to irrelevant details when I told you you were wrong, and then you had to eat crow?  Who had the opinion without the facts in that case?  And rinse and repeat over and over again. 

[Strike 3,999]

8 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Uh, you've stopped responding to me in this thread because I'm posting too much data.  Thoughts on my endocrinology post?

All you've posted is op-ed pieces with a lot of mean words.

Come on man.  "The Trevor Project" is one of the most respected, non partisan think tanks in the world with world renowned scientists doing SERIOUS research!!!

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Uh, you've stopped responding to me in this thread because I'm posting too much data.  Thoughts on my endocrinology post?

All you've posted is op-ed pieces with a lot of mean words.

We’re at a fundamental level of disagreement. I think minors should be allowed to have this treatment in consultation with their doctors and family. I don’t think the state should be involved. 

I really have no opinion on the information you’ve presented. I note that the AMA approves of gender affirming treatment and that’s enough for me. When and if they change their minds then I will too. But not on whether or not the state should be involved. 

I’ve explained all this before. Not sure what the point is in further responding. I like you and I don’t wish to insult you by impugning your views. But I do believe you’ve aligned yourself here with some pretty hateful people. 

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

You just love making stuff up.  Love me or hate me, very few people on this forum will dispute that I form my opinions based on data and I back that sh*t up, just as I did today.  I have since the day I joined almost 20 years ago.  Then we have you who I have shown to be factually wrong on at least 10 occasions since you started posting here in earnest, which is what 6 months?  Remember when you thought Trump's civil case in NY was about Taxes, and accused me of clinging to irrelevant details when I told you you were wrong, and then you had to eat crow?  Who had the opinion without the facts in that case?  And rinse and repeat over and over again. 

You begin with a hard right slant and you look for facts to justify it. I will give you credit that most times you don’t post a fact that isn’t true; that’s a major difference between us because I do that from time to time; I’m lazy and you’ve caught me out on it as you noted. But though your facts are correct, the conclusions you draw from them are almost always flawed (at least IMO). And I think you have a very skewed view of reality and the world. I’d frankly be embarrassed to have some of your views about race, immigration, and homosexuality. I actually feel kind of sad for you. 

[Fireballer 2,392]

6 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

We’re at a fundamental level of disagreement. I think minors should be allowed to have this treatment in consultation with their doctors and family. I don’t think the state should be involved. 

I really have no opinion on the information you’ve presented. I note that the AMA approves of gender affirming treatment and that’s enough for me. When and if they change their minds then I will too. But not on whether or not the state should be involved. 

I’ve explained all this before. Not sure what the point is in further responding. I like you and I don’t wish to insult you by impugning your views. But I do believe you’ve aligned yourself here with some pretty hateful people. 

Tim are you of the stance that no matter how harmful gender affirming care is proven to be for minors, that the  families wishes should over ride that?  In 10 years, if this is exposed as a terrible mistake, would your stance be a libertarian one, or would you wish that more was done to prevent it?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,713]

If it’s not a mental health issue then why should mental health professionals manage the care? If a kid gets his broken leg operated on do we call in mental health “experts” ? 

[Fireballer 2,392]

57 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

If it’s not a mental health issue then why should mental health professionals manage the care? If a kid gets his broken leg operated on do we call in mental health “experts” ? 

I’m sure Tim will be along shortly to tell us about the extensive research he’s done on why gender nonconformity was removed from the DSM in 2013.

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

1 hour ago, Fireballer said:

Tim are you of the stance that no matter how harmful gender affirming care is proven to be for minors, that the  families wishes should over ride that?  In 10 years, if this is exposed as a terrible mistake, would your stance be a libertarian one, or would you wish that more was done to prevent it?

Probably both. I’d still have a libertarian stance (I always do on all medical decisions except those that affect public health) but I’d also wish more was done to prevent it- but socially and culturally, not legally: But I’m skeptical this will be the case. 

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

12 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

I’m sure Tim will be along shortly to tell us about the extensive research he’s done on why gender nonconformity was removed from the DSM in 2013.

You and others keep trying to attack me for claiming I’m some sort of expert on this subject. My position is based on principle. 

[Maximum Overkill 681]

7 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

We’re at a fundamental level of disagreement. I think minors should be allowed to have this treatment in consultation with their doctors and family. I don’t think the state should be involved. 

Tim, be 100% honest, have you EVER had sexual relations with another Man? In any form?  Or Tranny 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,545]

22 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

I’m sure Tim will be along shortly to tell us about the extensive research he’s done on why gender nonconformity was removed from the DSM in 2013.

The extensive research he's done on Vox, Pravda, MSNBC and the DNC Official website. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,130]

14 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

We’re actually not that far apart. I agree with you on the sports issue. On the under 18 stuff, I would allow it with parental permission, while you would make it completely illegal under 18. That’s not the same thing but it’s not that big a difference. We both agree that a minor should not be allowed to have gender surgery of his or her own accord.

Should a minor be allowed to have hormone treatments (not surgery) of his or her own accord? I’m not sure of this but I lean towards yes.  

Under 18, never.  Period.  Just like every other thing in this country.  Over 18, do what you want... it's your body.  As long as you don't force me to participate in your delusion.

If any policy that is put forward that supports Under 18, then I don't care what else is in the policy, it gets 100% ignored and the answer is "No".  Period.  There will forever be pushback on this.

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

27 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Tim, be 100% honest, have you EVER had sexual relations with another Man? In any form?  Or Tranny 

Are you asking me out? 

[TBayXXXVII 2,130]

27 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Are you asking me out? 

Good one. 

[jerryskids 5,215]

11 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

We’re at a fundamental level of disagreement. I think minors should be allowed to have this treatment in consultation with their doctors and family. I don’t think the state should be involved. 

I really have no opinion on the information you’ve presented. I note that the AMA approves of gender affirming treatment and that’s enough for me. When and if they change their minds then I will too. But not on whether or not the state should be involved. 

I’ve explained all this before. Not sure what the point is in further responding. I like you and I don’t wish to insult you by impugning your views. But I do believe you’ve aligned yourself here with some pretty hateful people. 

I've aligned myself on the side of protecting children who are going through normal childhood explorations, and who get caught up in the social contagion which is causing our medical lobbying groups (not necessarily doctors) to endorse unnecessary and destructive treatments which the rest of the civilized world, having led us into such an approach, has ,to a country, backed off those positions.

I am on the right side of history.  I think I've said this before, but someday you will look back on how wrong all of this is and think... oh well, I meant well, I was doing what the children wanted.  This is the insidious evil of liberalism; it feels nice and good.  Unfortunately, sometimes to do right, you have to do things that don't make people happy in the moment.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and you and your side are barreling down it like it is the Autobahn.   

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,545]

Imagine supporting castrating children, grooming children, pumping them up full of drugs, taking them to drag shows and indoctrinating them and then having the audacity to call everyone else opposed to this as hateful. 

[The Real timschochet 2,992]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

I've aligned myself on the side of protecting children who are going through normal childhood explorations, and who get caught up in the social contagion which is causing our medical lobbying groups (not necessarily doctors) to endorse unnecessary and destructive treatments which the rest of the civilized world, having led us into such an approach, has ,to a country, backed off those positions.

I am on the right side of history.  I think I've said this before, but someday you will look back on how wrong all of this is and think... oh well, I meant well, I was doing what the children wanted.  This is the insidious evil of liberalism; it feels nice and good.  Unfortunately, sometimes to do right, you have to do things that don't make people happy in the moment.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and you and your side are barreling down it like it is the Autobahn.   

OK. Well then if we’re both still posting here in a few years we can revisit it. 
I don’t think liberalism is evil- or conservatism for that matter. I think evil, in terms of politics,  should be reserved for truly awful stuff like Communism, fascism, radical Islam, etc. Most American politics don’t fall into that. Even nativism and MAGA, which i detest, doesn’t approach the evil meter. I used to see a t-shirt around that read “I disagree with you but I don’t think you’re Hitler.” Basically my mantra. 

[jerryskids 5,215]

11 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

OK. Well then if we’re both still posting here in a few years we can revisit it. 
I don’t think liberalism is evil- or conservatism for that matter. I think evil, in terms of politics,  should be reserved for truly awful stuff like Communism, fascism, radical Islam, etc. Most American politics don’t fall into that. Even nativism and MAGA, which i detest, doesn’t approach the evil meter. I used to see a t-shirt around that read “I disagree with you but I don’t think you’re Hitler.” Basically my mantra. 

I don't think all liberalism, or conservatism, is evil either.  The bad of conservatism is that it sometimes stops good progress.  The bad of liberalism is that it sometimes pushes bad progress.

The difference I tried to point out is that the bad in conservatism is easy to see:  you are being mean by not allowing [xxx].  The bad in liberalism is less easy to see (hence "insidious") because it seems like you are just trying to be nice in all cases.

[nobody 2,052]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

I've aligned myself on the side of protecting children who are going through normal childhood explorations, and who get caught up in the social contagion which is causing our medical lobbying groups (not necessarily doctors) to endorse unnecessary and destructive treatments which the rest of the civilized world, having led us into such an approach, has ,to a country, backed off those positions.

I am on the right side of history.  I think I've said this before, but someday you will look back on how wrong all of this is and think... oh well, I meant well, I was doing what the children wanted.  This is the insidious evil of liberalism; it feels nice and good.  Unfortunately, sometimes to do right, you have to do things that don't make people happy in the moment.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and you and your side are barreling down it like it is the Autobahn.   

That's what they did with the covid jab mandates.  

"Oh well, we did our best."  Well if your best is trash, maybe sit back and leave decisions to the people who were telling you in real time that shìt is going sideways.

[jerryskids 5,215]

28 minutes ago, nobody said:

That's what they did with the covid jab mandates.  

"Oh well, we did our best."  Well if your best is trash, maybe sit back and leave decisions to the people who were telling you in real time that shìt is going sideways.

Yeah... and to me the more egregious thing was keeping kids out of school.  People like me said from day 1 that they were going to significantly impair their growth and development.  "Nah," we were told, "kids are resilient."  We had many such debates here.  And now there is universal recognition of exactly that happening.  

But hey, they meant well, right?