Caitlin Clark debut

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

10 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Probably.  No one would be paying attention to them.

The MSM would.

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

 

[kilroy69 1,216]

40 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

 

The WNBA literally can not afford for her to get hurt or pregnant. The games she plays in double the home teams attendance. 

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

and Angel Reese is better.. go figure

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

2 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

and Angel Reese is better.. go figure

Not really

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Not really

I was kidding / baiting the easily baited. 

buuuuut... she is averaging like 13 and 12 with under 2 turnovers a game and 75% from the foul line. 

[cyclone24 1,912]

18 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Not really

I could make a number of arguments that Angel Reece is significantly better.
 

Clark is a below average shooter in this league in about mid pack as far as three-pointers. She has the fourth worst plus minus rate in the league and leads the league turnovers by 43 more than the person in second. Also 5th in most fouls.

if we took all the fanboys out of the stands, there’s really nothing that remarkable to go this crazy about. 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

2 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

I could make a number of arguments that Angel Reece is significantly better.
 

Clark is a below average shooter in this league in about mid pack as far as three-pointers. She has the fourth worst plus minus rate in the league and leads the league turnovers by 43 more than the person in second. Also 5th in most fouls.

if we took all the fanboys out of the stands, there’s really nothing that remarkable to go this crazy about. 

Clark is ranked in the top 20 in the league in 5 different categories, 6 if we include turnovers. lol  Reese is playing great and has a good chance at winning it, but it's Clark's to lose yet.

[cyclone24 1,912]

19 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Clark is ranked in the top 20 in the league in 5 different categories, 6 if we include turnovers. lol  Reese is playing great and has a good chance at winning it, but it's Clark's to lose yet.

True true I think the problem is what people come out to watch her do she’s not really that exceptional app at least right now. I mean, nobody’s coming out to watch her grab rebounds. Like the other day she had a logo three that of course got on SportsCenter. What they left out which she was like two for 10 from three that game. I just wonder if that sort of percentage shooting continues if the interest will weigh? I mean it’s going to regardless because it’s just not really sustainable people paying hundreds of dollars to watch women’s game that is not a good product. 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

3 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

True true I think the problem is what people come out to watch her do she’s not really that exceptional app at least right now. I mean, nobody’s coming out to watch her grab rebounds. Like the other day she had a logo three that of course got on SportsCenter. What they left out which she was like two for 10 from three that game. I just wonder if that sort of percentage shooting continues if the interest will weigh? I mean it’s going to regardless because it’s just not really sustainable people paying hundreds of dollars to watch women’s game that is not a good product. 

I'm confident her percentage with improve.  I think it will all improve.  Hopefully they are able to get a lot of practice in during the Olympic break and gel as a team.

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

31 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

I could make a number of arguments that Angel Reece is significantly better.
 

Clark is a below average shooter in this league in about mid pack as far as three-pointers. She has the fourth worst plus minus rate in the league and leads the league turnovers by 43 more than the person in second. Also 5th in most fouls.

if we took all the fanboys out of the stands, there’s really nothing that remarkable to go this crazy about. 

the argument can definitely be made.  Reese is  13-12-2   Clark is 16-6-7    Clark turns the ball over way more. Similar steals numbers. Clark is a better free throw shooter but Reese is not bad (for the WNBA) and Reese doesn't shoot 3's. 

If you take away the college hype of Clark, where we wouldn't even have this thread, Reese is probably the slight front runner for ROY. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,741]

44 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Clark is ranked in the top 20 in the league in 5 different categories,

That's amazing 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

15 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

the argument can definitely be made.  Reese is  13-12-2   Clark is 16-6-7    Clark turns the ball over way more. Similar steals numbers. Clark is a better free throw shooter but Reese is not bad (for the WNBA) and Reese doesn't shoot 3's. 

If you take away the college hype of Clark, where we wouldn't even have this thread, Reese is probably the slight front runner for ROY. 

Clark accounts for almost half of her teams points when looking at her scoring and assists.  Clark is the better overall shooting.  Reese relies on pure volume inside, grabbing boards and chucking it up.

[cyclone24 1,912]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Clark accounts for almost half of her teams points when looking at her scoring and assists.  Clark is the better overall shooting.  Reese relies on pure volume inside, grabbing boards and chucking it up.

Couldn’t i say that’s exactly what Clarke does? Her shooting percentage is not great but she piles up points based on volume defensively it’s not even close that Reece is better.

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

Just now, cyclone24 said:

Couldn’t i say that’s exactly what Clarke does? Her shooting percentage is not great but she piles up points based on volume defensively it’s not even close that Reece is better.

Huh?  What volume?  Clark is shooting fewer shots than ever in her career.  Her 2pt% is higher than Reese's.  Her effective fg% is 11 points higher than Reese's.  They average about the same amount of steals per game.  Clark has more blocks, which just seems odd.  I don't think anyone could criticize her assist numbers.

[MLCKAA 546]

12 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

Couldn’t i say that’s exactly what Clarke does? Her shooting percentage is not great but she piles up points based on volume defensively it’s not even close that Reece is better.

Clark is only averaging 12 shots per game.  She’s not a chucker.

[posty 2,613]

32 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

Clark turns the ball over way more.

She also handles the ball many, many, many more times that Reese, since she is, you know, a guard and sometimes runs point...

[cyclone24 1,912]

4 minutes ago, posty said:

She also handles the ball many, many, many more times that Reese, since she is, you know, a guard and sometimes runs point...

No guard should ever have a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio…ever.

[cyclone24 1,912]

7 minutes ago, MLCKAA said:

Clark is only averaging 12 shots per game.  She’s not a chucker.

She’s not now no because not a chance they would let her play the way she did at Iowa, where there were games she shot as many times as her entire team combined.
 

She is a bit of a chucker I mean, you can’t say wow look at all these points and then you show her percent is not good and not get to a place where you say yeah she needs a lot of shots to get there. Her shooting % is not much different than it was in college. It’s nothing that exceptional but people act like it’s Steph Curry out there or something.

[posty 2,613]

1 minute ago, cyclone24 said:

No guard should ever have a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio…ever.

Well 1.3 currently, but yeah, I agree...

As a side note, Reese AST/TO ratio is 1.1...

[TimHauck 2,627]

Wait, the WNBA only has 12 teams and 8 make the playoffs?  Lol

[posty 2,613]

Just now, TimHauck said:

Wait, the WNBA only has 12 teams and 8 make the playoffs?  Lol

It is so they don't have to have top seeds sit for a while as the lower seeds play their series...  They aren't going to have a one-and-done first round...

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

7 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

No guard should ever have a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio…ever.

It's 1.27 right now.  Still more assists than turnovers.

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

22 minutes ago, posty said:

She also handles the ball many, many, many more times that Reese, since she is, you know, a guard and sometimes runs point...

understood. I was very general with that statement but as has already been pointed out, the assist to turnover ratio is key and the guard argument doesn't help Clark when taking that into consideration. 

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

25 minutes ago, posty said:

Well 1.3 currently, but yeah, I agree...

As a side note, Reese AST/TO ratio is 1.1...

but you dont really worry about the ratio as much for someone who plays down low, especially when we are talking low numbers in those categories. Shes not running the point, as you discussed. having the ball stripped or losing the handle 1-2 times a game is palatable for any player who you are not asking or expecting to facilitate. 

 

NBA example... kid of cherry picking but Jalen Duren is a nice young player on a bad team.. averages like 14-11.    2.4 apg, 2.1 topg     Even someone like Gobert, 1.3 apg, 1.6 topg

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

4 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

but you dont really worry about the ratio as much for someone who plays down low, especially when we are talking low numbers in those categories. Shes not running the point, as you discussed. having the ball stripped or losing the handle 1-2 times a game is palatable for any player who you are not asking or expecting to facilitate. 

I've never watched a game, no real interest or intension of watching any... but as a former Phoenix Suns fan and loved watching Steve Nash, my guess is that Clark's passing/ball handling game is much like his.  Lots of movement, fast paced, quick decision passing.  Turnovers can be a plenty in that environment with little to time to acclimate to your team and also, if you have crappy teammates.  My guess is both are possible, considering the turnaround from college to WNBA season was like a month and her team had the #1 overall pick.  Note, I said "my guess".  LOL

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

4 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I've never watched a game, no real interest or intension of watching any... but as a former Phoenix Suns fan and loved watching Steve Nash, my guess is that Clark's passing/ball handling game is much like his.  Lots of movement, fast paced, quick decision passing.  Turnovers can be a plenty in that environment with little to time to acclimate to your team and also, if you have crappy teammates.  My guess is both are possible, considering the turnaround from college to WNBA season was like a month and her team had the #1 overall pick.  Note, I said "my guess".  LOL

I think that's a pretty accurate assessment.

[TimHauck 2,627]

29 minutes ago, posty said:

It is so they don't have to have top seeds sit for a while as the lower seeds play their series...  They aren't going to have a one-and-done first round...

Well I guess it’s good for the WNBA that the Fever have a shot at the playoffs despite apparently sucking 

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

33 minutes ago, posty said:

It is so they don't have to have top seeds sit for a while as the lower seeds play their series...  They aren't going to have a one-and-done first round...

Is it 4 & 4 or the best 8 teams overall?  Looks like the West has a pretty balanced conference where the East is 2 great teams and 4 crappy teams.

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think that's a pretty accurate assessment.

ugh, dude... no offense but his post is littered with "my guess", which he points out. There is no evidence that Clark's playstyle is like Steve Nash in terms of movement / pace / decision making. I had read something maybe a week ago that the Fever GM didn't even view her as a true PG.  the second half of it is back to what's been discussed ad nauseam in terms of the turnaround time.... She's like halfway through the regular season now. 

you think it's a pretty accurate statement because you want it to be and for whatever reason you seem to be very invested in Clark and hold her near and dear. 

[listen2me 23 1,831]

2 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

I was kidding / baiting the easily baited. 

buuuuut... she is averaging like 13 and 12 with under 2 turnovers a game and 75% from the foul line. 

I dont watch so I am talking out of my ass.  I did catch a bit of their college games against eachother.  

Reese doesnt seem that skilled.  Shes avg a double double  ut shooting under 40% as a put back "big man".   Put backs in girls basketball reminds me of youth basketball.  Just chucking it at the basket from 4 feet away.  Biggest person keeps getting offensive rebound.  

Watching Clark in those games she actually looked fairly skilled.  Not only with her shot but she looked like a safisticated passer for that level.  

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

3 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

ugh, dude... no offense but his post is littered with "my guess", which he points out. There is no evidence that Clark's playstyle is like Steve Nash in terms of movement / pace / decision making. I had read something maybe a week ago that the Fever GM didn't even view her as a true PG.  the second half of it is back to what's been discussed ad nauseam in terms of the turnaround time.... She's like halfway through the regular season now. 

you think it's a pretty accurate statement because you want it to be and for whatever reason you seem to be very invested in Clark and hold her near and dear. 

I disagree but that's your opinion.  You're right, I am invested in Clark.  She's an Iowa girl that stayed in state and attended my favorite school.  I've been watching her since she was a freshman at Iowa.  My wife is a girls basketball coach and we watch all her games together.  We went to watch her play in college.  It's been a lot of fun.

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

2 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

I dont watch so I am talking out of my ass.  I did catch a bit of their college games against eachother.  

Reese doesnt seem that skilled.  Shes avg a double double  ut shooting under 40% as a put back "big man".   Put backs in girls basketball reminds me of youth basketball.  Just chucking it at the basket from 4 feet away.  Biggest person keeps getting offensive rebound.  

Watching Clark in those games she actually looked fairly skilled.  Not only with her shot but she looked like a safisticated passer for that level.  

I don't disagree at all. I guess in a sense, if a WNBA player is good enough at grabbing boards from all the missed shots and finishing them off at a good enough clip to average a double double, it has to be somewhat impressive in the context of it being the WNBA. 

If we compare the WNBA to youth basketball to negate those numbers, does that not make it look even worse that Clark has been fairly unspectacular and certainly not dominant, given her collegiate accolades? 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

5 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

I dont watch so I am talking out of my ass.  I did catch a bit of their college games against eachother.  

Reese doesnt seem that skilled.  Shes avg a double double  ut shooting under 40% as a put back "big man".   Put backs in girls basketball reminds me of youth basketball.  Just chucking it at the basket from 4 feet away.  Biggest person keeps getting offensive rebound.  

Watching Clark in those games she actually looked fairly skilled.  Not only with her shot but she looked like a safisticated passer for that level.  

Reese does get a lot of rebounds that way but she's not getting them because of height.  She really is a very skilled rebounder.

[listen2me 23 1,831]

7 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I don't disagree at all. I guess in a sense, if a WNBA player is good enough at grabbing boards from all the missed shots and finishing them off at a good enough clip to average a double double, it has to be somewhat impressive in the context of it being the WNBA. 

If we compare the WNBA to youth basketball to negate those numbers, does that not make it look even worse that Clark has been fairly unspectacular and certainly not dominant, given her collegiate accolades? 

Not that she cant drive some but an outside shooter with the defensive assignments against her seems like a harder transition than just big girl put back type.  This is all spitballing I suppose I am just looking for some banter.  Id imagine Clark is the best player on her team?  Opponents game plan for her defensively.  Do teams game plan Reese?  Is she thr best player?  Or do they just send their PF against her and say make sure you box out?  

Id assume Clarks degree of difficulty is much higher than what Reese sees.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

21 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

ugh, dude... no offense but his post is littered with "my guess", which he points out. There is no evidence that Clark's playstyle is like Steve Nash in terms of movement / pace / decision making. I had read something maybe a week ago that the Fever GM didn't even view her as a true PG.  the second half of it is back to what's been discussed ad nauseam in terms of the turnaround time.... She's like halfway through the regular season now. 

you think it's a pretty accurate statement because you want it to be and for whatever reason you seem to be very invested in Clark and hold her near and dear. 

Nope, none.  Just going off of what I saw in a few games at Iowa.  Nothing more.

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

1 minute ago, listen2me 23 said:

Not that she cant drive some but an outside shooter with the defensive assignments against her seems like a harder transition than just big girl put back type.  This is all spitballing I suppose I am just looking for some banter.  Id imagine Clark is the best player on her team?  Opponents game plan for her defensively.  Do teams game plan Reese?  Is she thr best player?  Or do they just send their PF against her and say make sure you box out?  

Id assume Clarks degree of difficulty is much higher than what Reese sees.  

I assume Clark is viewed as their best player... as she should be given the hype. So yes, I assume she sees tougher defense.  

I do know for a fact that Reese is 6'3. I guess that counts as a big for the WNBA even though there are obviously some super tall women playing. I just quickly looked and she leads the league in Rebounding and is really no taller than other players in the top 15-20 in the category. Some being as tall as 6'6"

Reese's team is 7-11 and doesn't appear to be very good. She is their 3rd leading scorer and obviously leading rebounder. I would think there would be some defensive game planning toward her. 

[listen2me 23 1,831]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Reese does get a lot of rebounds that way but she's not getting them because of height.  She really is a very skilled rebounder.

Shes not super tall but shes a big girl.  What 6'3?  Not rail thin.  Probably above average athleticism for her size?  At that level that can be all it takes.  But I dont watch the games so ill defer to you on the game Reese has and what skills she displays.  

 She averages more offensive boards than the NBA leader.  .8 more per game than the 2 NBA players tied for 2nd.  

[WhiteWonder 2,681]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Nope, none.  Just going off of what I saw in a few games at Iowa.  Nothing more.

yeah, i'm not knocking your opinion or saying it's wrong.  I have no clue.  Maybe she is a female steve nash.  I was just pointing out to Hawkeye that it was your guess and more anecdotal than anything. 

[Hawkeye21 2,382]

2 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Shes not super tall but shes a big girl.  What 6'3?  Not rail thin.  Probably above average athleticism for her size?  At that level that can be all it takes.  But I dont watch the games so ill defer to you on the game Reese has and what skills she displays.  

 She averages more offensive boards than the NBA leader.  .8 more per game than the 2 NBA players tied for 2nd.  

She's good.  She gets after it as a rebounder.  Her ball handling skills are poor and so is her shooting though.