Fashionable foreigners exposing Ohioans to new culinary experiences

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

@jerryskids quotes from the article the horrible accident last year where a Haitian without a drivers license hit a school bus, killing one child and injuring dozens of others. Thats awful, obviously, but it caused Jerry to write this: 

They can’t drive well or read road signs

This is the sort of bigotry that has unfortunately become so popular in the Trump era, especially against migrants of a different skin color. It’s no different from using terrible anecdotes of rapes and murders to argue that migrants are violent criminals. It’s awful, shameful, and I wish that as a society we could move away from it. 

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

That link has already been posted by @TimHauck, and we had a good discussion on it.  Without the asinine assertion of bigotry.

“They don’t drive well”- I don’t regard you as a bigot but this was a bigoted statement. It’s beneath you (but  not beneath some other posters in this forum.) Perhaps you’d like to retract it? 

[HotRod 70]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids quotes from the article the horrible accident last year where a Haitian without a drivers license hit a school bus, killing one child and injuring dozens of others. Thats awful, obviously, but it caused Jerry to write this: 

They can’t drive well or read road signs

This is the sort of bigotry that has unfortunately become so popular in the Trump era, especially against migrants of a different skin color. It’s no different from using terrible anecdotes of rapes and murders to argue that migrants are violent criminals. It’s awful, shameful, and I wish that as a society we could move away from it. 

There are numerous reports of Haitians not being good drivers.  It's not racist.

Just like women in America aren't good drivers, or Asians.  It's not racist.  It's insurance data.

[squistion 2,216]

30 minutes ago, HotRod said:

There are numerous reports of Haitians not being good drivers.  It's not racist.

Just like women in America aren't good drivers, or Asians.  It's not racist.  It's insurance data.

That is a false racist stereotype. I would like to see the so called insurance data on Asians that they aren't good drivers.

As far as women this from a Google search:

 

Quote

Who is statistically worse drivers?

Who Causes More Accidents? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that men cause an average of 6.1 million accidents per year in the US, and women cause 4.4 million accidents per year.

 

 

[jonnyutah 293]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Not to mention that these people aren’t undocumented either. They’re here legally. 
 

The fact that the MAGA folks keep calling them “illegal”, and conflating them with those who come across our borders, is a huge tell. It completely makes a lie of the folks who always argue “I’m for immigration so long as it’s legal.” 

Jesus christ. Historically these nitwits would be illegals. They literally flood the border get "whipped" by agents on horseback and then scream asylum asylum. They slap tps on them and voila, "legal" and in the country. 

So many other ways they bypass long established norms just to get their butts past the border. 

They no longer have to prove they wont be a drain on public services either. In fact democrats prefer them to be drains. 

[HotRod 70]

41 minutes ago, squistion said:

That is a false racist stereotype. I would like to see the so called insurance data on Asians that they aren't good drivers.

As far as women this from a Google search:

 

 

 

I've driven enough to know who the problem drivers are.

[squistion 2,216]

2 minutes ago, HotRod said:

I've driven enough to know who the problem drivers are.

But you have no statistics to back it up, do you?

[HotRod 70]

Just now, squistion said:

But you have no statistics to back it up, do you?

you can google it

[squistion 2,216]

Just now, HotRod said:

you can google it

I did and I found no links to statistics that Asians are bad drivers. 

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

1 minute ago, HotRod said:

you can google it

Google doesn’t always help you link to the racist sites like Stormfront or wherever you hang out when you’re not here. Often it takes a little digging. 

[Horseman 2,470]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

“They don’t drive well”

That's being generous.  There are 3 cars per 1000 people in Haiti.  They don't know how to drive period.  Full Stop.

[jerryskids 6,825]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids quotes from the article the horrible accident last year where a Haitian without a drivers license hit a school bus, killing one child and injuring dozens of others. Thats awful, obviously, but it caused Jerry to write this: 

They can’t drive well or read road signs

This is the sort of bigotry that has unfortunately become so popular in the Trump era, especially against migrants of a different skin color. It’s no different from using terrible anecdotes of rapes and murders to argue that migrants are violent criminals. It’s awful, shameful, and I wish that as a society we could move away from it. 

Again, the quote from your own link:

Quote

Enrollment in Medicaid and federal food assistance and welfare programs surged. So did rents and vehicle accidents, including a collision last year when a Haitian without a U.S. driver's license drove into a school bus, killing 11-year-old Aiden Clark and injuring 26 other children.

The number of affordable housing vouchers fell as landlords moved to market-based rents that were rising in the face of higher demand, a blow to existing residents relying on them.

I bolded for you:  vehicle accidents surged.  To what would you attribute this surge?  I didn't say they were stupid, I said they can't read the signs.  The official languages of Haiti are French and Haitian Creole, as per Google.

Also, this is the driving environment they come from:

Quote

AI Overview
Learn more
…
In Haiti, drivers drive on the right side of the road. However, driving conditions in Haiti can be dangerous and unpredictable, and drivers often use whichever side of the road is open to them: 
Road conditions: Roads are often unmarked, unpaved, and congested. 
Traffic lights: There are very few traffic lights. 
Speed limits: Speed limits are often not posted and rarely enforced. 
Lane indicators: Few roads have lane indicators. 
Driving behavior: Drivers may pass on the left, right, or even in the middle. 
Safety: Road travel in Haiti is dangerous due to aggressive driving and drivers not following traffic laws. 

Does this sound like a driver who would seamlessly adapt to American driving?

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

57 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Again, the quote from your own link:

I bolded for you:  vehicle accidents surged.  To what would you attribute this surge?  I didn't say they were stupid, I said they can't read the signs.  The official languages of Haiti are French and Haitian Creole, as per Google.

Also, this is the driving environment they come from:

Does this sound like a driver who would seamlessly adapt to American driving?

It’s bigoted to collectivize to a large group. It’s bigoted to suggest that they represent a problem or burden on our society because of supposed bad driving skills. I don’t regard you as a bigoted person but these are unintentional bigoted comments IMO. 
 

Let’s bottom line this: none of the reasons you offered is enough to justify not having these people here or reporting them. It’s good for us that they’re here. We should bring more in. 

[Tree of Knowledge 1,868]

6 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s bigoted to collectivize to a large group. It’s bigoted to suggest that they represent a problem or burden on our society because of supposed bad driving skills. I don’t regard you as a bigoted person but these are unintentional bigoted comments IMO. 
 

Let’s bottom line this: none of the reasons you offered is enough to justify not having these people here or reporting them. It’s good for us that they’re here. We should bring more in. 

So it’s not bigoted when you make your comments about MAGA patriots?

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

18 minutes ago, Tree of Knowledge said:

So it’s not bigoted when you make your comments about MAGA patriots?

Nope. And your phrase is a contradiction. 

[jerryskids 6,825]

31 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s bigoted to collectivize to a large group. It’s bigoted to suggest that they represent a problem or burden on our society because of supposed bad driving skills. I don’t regard you as a bigoted person but these are unintentional bigoted comments IMO. 
 

Let’s bottom line this: none of the reasons you offered is enough to justify not having these people here or reporting them. It’s good for us that they’re here. We should bring more in. 

I thought it went without saying that saying they were bad drivers was not implying that every one of them drives, or is even bad.  Heck, maybe there are some savants who instantly adapted to the American way of driving.

Their bad driving is a problem and burden on our society.  That, along with the other items I listed, are part of the equation to determine if they are a net benefit, along with the feelings of the US citizens who've had a 33% invasion of a different culture.

What ISN'T part of the equation is your childish belief that any number of immigrants from any culture is always and completely a good thing.

[IndyColtsFan 325]

1 hour ago, Tree of Knowledge said:

So it’s not bigoted when you make your comments about MAGA patriots?

No more than speaking negatively of Nazis, fascists, homophobes, misogynists and racists.

 

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

I thought it went without saying that saying they were bad drivers was not implying that every one of them drives, or is even bad.  Heck, maybe there are some savants who instantly adapted to the American way of driving.

Their bad driving is a problem and burden on our society.  That, along with the other items I listed, are part of the equation to determine if they are a net benefit, along with the feelings of the US citizens who've had a 33% invasion of a different culture.

What ISN'T part of the equation is your childish belief that any number of immigrants from any culture is always and completely a good thing.

I don’t always say it’s good thing but in truth I don’t know when it’s ever been a bad thing. I can’t think of any historical examples of that and this is a history (immigration to America) that I’ve studied pretty carefully for a long long time. Is that childish? Maybe in your world, not mine. 

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

Here is the incredible sad irony about folks like @jerryskids who are complaining, without real evidence or foundation, that the infusion of Haitian immigrants in Springfield Ohio is a burden on that community: the death threats, the school closures, the festival cancellation- these have cost Springfield millions of dollars, far more than any burden that the immigrants might have caused. If @jerryskids or anyone else here truly cared about the poor folks of Springfield they would call on Trump and Vance to stop the lies, publicly proclaim they were untrue, and demand all the threats stop. But of course they won’t. Because none of these folks really care what happens over there; it’s just a political prop. 

[squistion 2,216]

There was a time when strangers were welcome here

Neil Sedaka - The Immigrant (1975)  

 

[lickin_starfish 1,942]

 

[jerryskids 6,825]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Here is the incredible sad irony about folks like @jerryskids who are complaining, without real evidence or foundation, that the infusion of Haitian immigrants in Springfield Ohio is a burden on that community: the death threats, the school closures, the festival cancellation- these have cost Springfield millions of dollars, far more than any burden that the immigrants might have caused. If @jerryskids or anyone else here truly cared about the poor folks of Springfield they would call on Trump and Vance to stop the lies, publicly proclaim they were untrue, and demand all the threats stop. But of course they won’t. Because none of these folks really care what happens over there; it’s just a political prop. 

For the third time:  your own Reuters article listed ways in which the infusion of Haitian immigrants is a burden on that community.  To think that a sudden infusion of 33% of your population, which largely don't speak your language or know your customs, would NOT be some burden on the community... that is not an adult thought.

Also I've informed you numerous times of our actual immigration history, I'm not going to waste my time repeating it because you will ignore it again.

I do not in any way support death threats, bomb threats, etc.  I've heard that most of them are from overseas -- if true, I doubt that Trump and Vance calling off the dogs would do much good.  But I think it would be a good look for them if they did so.

[jonnyutah 293]

Although Haitian law requires that applicants pass both a written and a driving test to qualify for a driver’s license, many Haitian drivers appear unaware of traffic laws. Signaling imminent actions is not widely practiced and not all drivers use turn indicators or international hand signals properly. For instance, many drivers use their left blinker for all actions, including turning right and stopping in the road, and others flap their left arm out the window to indicate that they will be taking an unspecified action. Drivers do not always verify that the road is clear before switching lanes, turning, or merging. When making a left-hand turn, drivers should be aware that traffic may pass on the left while they are attempting to turn. The driver passing on the left has the right of way even when the car being overtaken has its left-hand turn signal on and is attempting to turn left. Speed limits are seldom posted and are generally ignored. Speeding is the cause of many fatal traffic accidents in Haiti, as are overloaded vehicles on winding, mountainous roads and vehicles without brakes. Poor maintenance and mechanical failures often cause accidents as well. Right of way is not widely observed in Haiti, and there are few operational traffic lights or traffic signs.

[TimHauck 2,905]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

For the third time:  your own Reuters article listed ways in which the infusion of Haitian immigrants is a burden on that community.  To think that a sudden infusion of 33% of your population, which largely don't speak your language or know your customs, would NOT be some burden on the community... that is not an adult thought.

Also I've informed you numerous times of our actual immigration history, I'm not going to waste my time repeating it because you will ignore it again.

I do not in any way support death threats, bomb threats, etc.  I've heard that most of them are from overseas -- if true, I doubt that Trump and Vance calling off the dogs would do much good.  But I think it would be a good look for them if they did so.

Do you think they are a net negative?  There’s a big difference between saying they’ve had some negative impacts and saying they’re a net negative.  Of course I don’t think anyone but RealTim would say they’ve added nothing but positive.  Let’s see…

Positive:

Helped bring growth back to a town that was declining

Business owners report they have a strong work ethic

The additional residents have created additional demand for small businesses 

 

Negative:

Increase in car accidents/insurance rates

Taxing to social services, hospitals, schools

Slumlords taking advantage of them and possibly kicking out prior residents to do so 

 

Neutral:

Increased housing prices

 

Unproven:

Eat cats

Took jobs from locals that actually wanted them

 

At worst, I’d say it’s a wash.  And I think there’s a good argument they’ve been a net positive.

 

 

[TimHauck 2,905]

2 hours ago, lickin_starfish said:

 

Hey, you learned how to embed x posts, congrats!!

”Amuse” might be the biggest liar on there, so I’m not surprised you probably follow him.

For the record, it seems the city manager is the guy in this video that says “I’ve heard it too.”  But he also says “we haven’t seen the proof.”  Which aligns with his quoted statement from the debate saying there hasn’t been any verifiable evidence of it.

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

48 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Do you think they are a net negative?  There’s a big difference between saying they’ve had some negative impacts and saying they’re a net negative.  Of course I don’t think anyone but RealTim would say they’ve added nothing but positive.  Let’s see…

Positive:

Helped bring growth back to a town that was declining

Business owners report they have a strong work ethic

The additional residents have created additional demand for small businesses 

 

Negative:

Increase in car accidents/insurance rates

Taxing to social services, hospitals, schools

Slumlords taking advantage of them and possibly kicking out prior residents to do so 

 

Neutral:

Increased housing prices

 

Unproven:

Eat cats

Took jobs from locals that actually wanted them

 

At worst, I’d say it’s a wash.  And I think there’s a good argument they’ve been a net positive.

 

 

I would never argue they’ve added nothing but positive. I say they’re a net positive but @jerryskids is right: I say that about ALL immigrants because unless you’re a Native American it’s been largely true. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,484]

18 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I would never argue they’ve added nothing but positive. I say they’re a net positive but @jerryskids is right: I say that about ALL immigrants because unless you’re a Native American it’s been largely true. 

 Except that 11 year old that was killed. 

[jerryskids 6,825]

3 hours ago, TimHauck said:

Do you think they are a net negative?  There’s a big difference between saying they’ve had some negative impacts and saying they’re a net negative.  Of course I don’t think anyone but RealTim would say they’ve added nothing but positive.  Let’s see…

Positive:

Helped bring growth back to a town that was declining

Business owners report they have a strong work ethic

The additional residents have created additional demand for small businesses 

 

Negative:

Increase in car accidents/insurance rates

Taxing to social services, hospitals, schools

Slumlords taking advantage of them and possibly kicking out prior residents to do so 

 

Neutral:

Increased housing prices

 

Unproven:

Eat cats

Took jobs from locals that actually wanted them

 

At worst, I’d say it’s a wash.  And I think there’s a good argument they’ve been a net positive.

 

 

I appreciate the post and question.  Short answer is that I don't know if it is a net positive or negative.  Clearly there are constituents on each side -- many locals, particularly manufacturing people, and people impacted by housing price increases, might view it as a negative.  Business owners and service people in certain sectors might view it as a positive.

My general concern with an analysis like yours is that it is presented to look like "there are three of these, three of those, ergo it's a wash."  This presumes that each factor is equally weighted, which they aren't.  Also, the unknown to me which is important (and you listed) is the extent to which some locals would have taken jobs given to the Haitian migrants.

What I will say I feel strongly about, and this is my opinion:  adding 33% to the population of a city with migrants from the same place, in a short period of time, is a red flag.  Something is wrong -- locals won't work, or locals are getting focked over, or some combo.  I believe that the visibility by Trump's "eating the cats" is bringing this to the national forefront, if the Left can get over the cat part and see the real issue.  For Springfield and for future places which find themselves in a similar situation.

[Tree of Knowledge 1,868]

12 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

 Except that 11 year old that was killed. 

I hope Tim is reincarnated as a stray cat in a Haitian community.  

[The Real timschochet 6,815]

39 minutes ago, Tree of Knowledge said:

I hope Tim is reincarnated as a stray cat in a Haitian community.  

I owe it to the moonlight on a hot summer night. 

[jonnyutah 293]

12 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

 Except that 11 year old that was killed. 

Dint forget about the grandma run over and killed too. 

They covered that up quite well. 

[TimHauck 2,905]

10 hours ago, jerryskids said:

I appreciate the post and question.  Short answer is that I don't know if it is a net positive or negative.  Clearly there are constituents on each side -- many locals, particularly manufacturing people, and people impacted by housing price increases, might view it as a negative.  Business owners and service people in certain sectors might view it as a positive.

My general concern with an analysis like yours is that it is presented to look like "there are three of these, three of those, ergo it's a wash."  This presumes that each factor is equally weighted, which they aren't.  Also, the unknown to me which is important (and you listed) is the extent to which some locals would have taken jobs given to the Haitian migrants.

What I will say I feel strongly about, and this is my opinion:  adding 33% to the population of a city with migrants from the same place, in a short period of time, is a red flag.  Something is wrong -- locals won't work, or locals are getting focked over, or some combo.  I believe that the visibility by Trump's "eating the cats" is bringing this to the national forefront, if the Left can get over the cat part and see the real issue.  For Springfield and for future places which find themselves in a similar situation.

I didn’t mean to imply that my conclusion was based on the number of items in each list.  It was based on my opinion of the weightings.

It’s worth noting that some of the negatives can likely be solved without deporting them.  IMO, the #1 complaint from residents is the driving.  If they aren’t already, they should absolutely be ticketing and/or towing cars being driven illegally.   Boom!  Revenue source to help with the increased social services.   I know some have suggested increased availability of driving lessons. Boom! Business opportunity. 

What I think many that are complaining about them are forgetting is what the town was like before they arrived.  I’ve read articles citing that it had the biggest decline in median income of any town following the 2008 recession.   And I’m sure home prices followed suit (that’s why I put housing prices in the neutral column - I understand why it’s bad for those with low and fixed incomes, but it’s generally a sign of a strong economy).

But sure, maybe it’s not known exactly how much of the town’s turnaround is because of the Haitians or kinda just coincided with it.   

I do have a feeling the 20k number is being overstated, even though I believe it may have originated from the mayor or something.  Written statements from the government estimate that it is 12-15K for the entire county which has a population of 136K.  So it’s more like 10-15% and not 33%.  Also the articles I’ve read have said they’ve been coming for about 5 years, so it’s not like they all came at once.

I know you are focused on the job issue.  I guess we don’t know, but do you think factories are employing 100% Haitians or something?  Even the CEO that gave the interview and kinda criticized the local population, said only about 10% of his employees were Haitian.  So for one, I’d have a hard time believing factories are paying Haitians less than Americans doing the exact same job, and if they are they should absolutely be investigated.  But everything I’ve seen indicates that the Haitians aren’t really taking jobs that other people willingly wanted to do.  But to our earlier conversation, it’s not really clear if that is more due to there just not being enough local people, or the local people choosing not to take those jobs.

[Tree of Knowledge 1,868]

Great Trump Campaign Ad!!!

 

 

[jonnyutah 293]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

do have a feeling the 20k number is being overstated, even though I believe it may have originated from the mayor or something.  Written statements from the government estimate that it is 12-15K for the entire county which has a population of 136K.  So it’s more like 10-15% and not 33%.  Also the articles I’ve read have said they’ve been coming for about 5 years, so it’s not like they all came at once.

Buried in one of the links that you posted showed the massive swell in medicaid numbers in a much shorter time frame. I think it is pretty obvious there was a massive influx to springfield.

 

[TimHauck 2,905]

1 hour ago, jonnyutah said:

Buried in one of the links that you posted showed the massive swell in medicaid numbers in a much shorter time frame. I think it is pretty obvious there was a massive influx to springfield.

 

The only mention of that I recall is in the one RealTim also posted, but it just said “enrollment surged” with no specific numbers

[squistion 2,216]

https://x.com/ddale8/status/1837186971392741818

Sen. JD Vance claimed VP Kamala Harris and the immigrant influx have caused a big increase in murder in Springfield.

Except…Springfield had significantly more murders under President Donald Trump than it has had under Biden-Harris:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/20/politics/fact-check-springfield-had-more-murders-under-trump-than-under-biden-harris/index.html (link to fact check). 

[jonnyutah 293]

57 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

The only mention of that I recall is in the one RealTim also posted, but it just said “enrollment surged” with no specific numbers

There was a chart. Went from like 1000 to 8000. 

[TimHauck 2,905]

Hey @jonnyutah, here’s a guy that probably does need to be investigated, not the mayor.

Apparently the CEO of a staffing agency dependent on Haitians, and owns 40+ rentals under the name “Ten Enterprises”:

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/375011/feds-and-state-ag-investigate-an-alleged-human-trafficking-empire-run-in-springfield-ohio/

[Mike Honcho 5,287]

On 9/7/2024 at 8:42 AM, The Psychic Observer said:

A tale of disinformation... spread by hateful individuals.  Social media spreads lies through the weakest of the weak.  True patriots seek the truth and fight against the lies.  Click below if you care about the truth.

https://www.npr.org/2024/08/12/nx-s1-5055784/immigration-vance-trump-migration-president-migrants-election-ohio

 

https://www.daytondailynews.com/local/springfields-haitian-population-evolving-from-strangers-to-neighbors/EIDJWZQGQFGINAW62HYSDZTWI4/

https://haitiantimes.com/2024/08/30/springfield-ohio-haitian-immigrants-racism/

 

Story debunked post 10, Geek Club argues for 17 more pages. 

[shadrap 228]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:30 AM, jonnyutah said:

Buried in one of the links that you posted showed the massive swell in medicaid numbers in a much shorter time frame. I think it is pretty obvious there was a massive influx to springfield.

 

try going to an emergency room in the Phoenix area with a broken arm.  You Might get in within 2 hours.  Illegals without insurance compromise roughly 60% of those waiting.  probably more.