Dem immigration talking points fizzle as dark picture of Abrego Garcia emerges

[Engorgeous George 2,331]

2 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

Just like your hero you frame everything as a W or L.  I read all your posts which is why I asked you to explain your hypocrisy.  You chose not to and went with the personal attack.  Tells me all I need to know.  Enjoy your day.  I'll even let you get the last word in, probably going to point out how I threw the gun

Or not.

[jerryskids 6,797]

7 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Kilmar_Abrego_Garcia

Thanks.  Wiki, as usual the arbiter of non-partisan truth, states the following:

Quote

Abrego Garcia was born in the Los Nogales neighborhood of San Salvador, El Salvador, in July 1995.^[2][24] In El Salvador, the Barrio 18 criminal gang extorted his mother's pupusa business for money and threatened that if she did not pay the money, they would force her eldest son, Cesar, to join the gang; the gang later threatened to kill him.^[2][25] As a result, the family paid the money and hid Cesar, eventually sending him to the United States.^[2][26] Barrio 18 then turned its attention to Kilmar, who was around 12 years old. The gang followed Kilmar and continued to threaten his family.^[2] Eventually, when Kilmar was 16 years old,^[26][27] his family sent him to the U.S. as well.^[2]

But the link to Newsweek, source #2 above from which most of this was derived, contains a key omission from above:

Quote

He testified then that when the Barrio 18 gang realized the business was making money, it tried to extort his mother Cecilia with rent demands. If she couldn't pay, the gang said, Abrego Garcia's older brother Cesar could join the gang instead. The family paid the money and hid the boy, eventually sending him to the U.S.

The gang turned their attention to Abrego Garcia, then around 12 years old, following him and continuing to make threats to the wider family. They eventually sent him to the U.S. as well in around 2011 or 2012. He allegedly crossed the border illegally.

So the source is his testimony.  @TimHauck, you are the expert here:  is he a credible witness in a court hearing about his own deportation?

Also, this wasn't my question.  What did the gang do to the family business after he left?    Also, he was born in 1995 so he's 30 now; is the gang still extorting the family, and they will make a middle-aged man join their gang if he returns?

[Ron_Artest 1,527]

Gang members don't want middle aged men now?  But I thought he was MS13?

Its says so on his knuckles

[jerryskids 6,797]

13 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

Gang members don't want middle aged men now?  But I thought he was MS13?

Its says so on his knuckles

That wasn't my question, and you ignored the part about the family business and what has happened in that time  but you long ago abandoned intelligent discourse.

How's that last word coming?

[Herbivore 1,134]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

That wasn't my question, and you ignored the part about the family business and what has happened in that time  but you long ago abandoned intelligent discourse.

How's that last word coming?

the family business moved a few times but not too long after shut down. i think this has already been posted in this thread. 

[jerryskids 6,797]

5 minutes ago, Herbivore said:

the family business moved a few times but not too long after shut down. i think this has already been posted in this thread. 

So how or why would Barrio 18 make a 30 yr old husband and family man join their gang?

[TimHauck 2,875]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

1. I don't recall.  If you prefer, we can call it "gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang" for now.

2. Gee, no, I've never heard that.

Your turn:

1. Walk me through this logic from your impeccable source, Garcia, since you are an expert on source impeccability:  Gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang threatens the family business, and Garcia's response is to flee the country.  Your argument is that gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang was just doing bizness, and it was nothing personal about him.  Explain to me why his life would be in danger from gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang if he went back to El Salvador.

I believe it’s been posted but here is the ruling, where the judge found Garcia to be credible and that his story was consistent and was supported by affidavits from his family. Yes I know this is just one judge’s opinion, similar to the one (read: not two) that thought he was in MS-13:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815.1.1_3.pdf

According to the story, yes it was just doing bizness, that’s what extortion is Jerry.  And according to the story, it was at the urging of his parents that he flee the country.  Maybe this gang preferred to threaten “military-aged men” and not females or older folks?  Speaking of, according to the story, his brother (who was also being threatened) left for America before Kilmar, so you can stop pretending he’s some coward that just decided on his own to ditch his parents. 

As far as what happened next, the family claimed despite moving twice, they were still being threatened.  It seems his parents and sisters eventually moved to Guatemala, where they say they were still being threatened as of the time of the hearing.

 

[Ron_Artest 1,527]

13 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

That wasn't my question, and you ignored the part about the family business and what has happened in that time  but you long ago abandoned intelligent discourse.

How's that last word coming?

I gave you the last word and ignored your response.  Does that mean I can't post ever again?

[Herbivore 1,134]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

So how or why would Barrio 18 make a 30 yr old husband and family man join their gang?

dei initiatives?

[TimHauck 2,875]

9 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

So how or why would Barrio 18 make a 30 yr old husband and family man join their gang?

Now you’re moving the goalposts to what would happen now.  If the gang really doesn’t exist anymore, then yes it’s correct that he shouldn’t be in danger there anymore.

But my recent pushback was the implication that the reason he was afraid of the gang in the first place was because he was “in a rival gang.”  There has been no evidence presented that that is the case, and there has been evidence presented that he was afraid of the gang because of threats they made to his family’s business.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,430]

So he wasn’t trafficking people when he was pulled over in Tennessee? 

[jerryskids 6,797]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Now you’re moving the goalposts to what would happen now.  If the gang really doesn’t exist anymore, then yes it’s correct that he shouldn’t be in danger there anymore.

But my recent pushback was the implication that the reason he was afraid of the gang in the first place was because he was “in a rival gang.”  There has been no evidence presented that that is the case, and there has been evidence presented that he was afraid of the gang because of threats they made to his family’s business.

Fair enough on the first part.  At the time of his hearing, the family business had shut down and they moved to Guatemala, but they were still threatened with what exactly if Garcia went back to El Salvador?  They had no business and were in a different country.

On your second part, I'm reminded again of the difference between evidence and proof.  There is plenty of evidence.  Whether it meets the burden of proof for a non-criminal proceeding is up for interpretation.

[Strike 5,542]

7 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Now you’re moving the goalposts to what would happen now.  If the gang really doesn’t exist anymore, then yes it’s correct that he shouldn’t be in danger there anymore.

But my recent pushback was the implication that the reason he was afraid of the gang in the first place was because he was “in a rival gang.”  There has been no evidence presented that that is the case, and there has been evidence presented that he was afraid of the gang because of threats they made to his family’s business.

But there has been evidence of his membership in a rival gang.  You may not agree with it but that doesn't mean the evidence wasn't presented. 

[Ron_Artest 1,527]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So he wasn’t trafficking people when he was pulled over in Tennessee? 

He wasn't charged.

[TimHauck 2,875]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

But there has been evidence of his membership in a rival gang.  You may not agree with it but that doesn't mean the evidence wasn't presented. 

There is “evidence” he was in a gang in the US, not in El Salvador.

[TimHauck 2,875]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Fair enough on the first part.  At the time of his hearing, the family business had shut down and they moved to Guatemala, but they were still threatened with what exactly if Garcia went back to El Salvador?  They had no business and were in a different country.

So are you giving up on the claim that being afraid of a “rival gang” was why he left El Salvador in the first place?

[TimHauck 2,875]

56 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks.  Wiki, as usual the arbiter of non-partisan truth, states the following:

But the link to Newsweek, source #2 above from which most of this was derived, contains a key omission from above:

So the source is his testimony.  @TimHauck, you are the expert here:  is he a credible witness in a court hearing about his own deportation?

Also, this wasn't my question.  What did the gang do to the family business after he left?    Also, he was born in 1995 so he's 30 now; is the gang still extorting the family, and they will make a middle-aged man join their gang if he returns?

Thanks for calling out his age. So he was only 16 when he left El Salvador.  Which would seem to make it not that likely (but yes, theoretically possible) that he was already in a “rival gang” by then.

[jerryskids 6,797]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

So are you giving up on the claim that being afraid of a “rival gang” was why he left El Salvador in the first place?

Ah, carefully worded I see.  I'll do similarly.  I concede that his testimony is that he left for a gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang.

But given the situation at the hearing, with his family's business gone and them moved to Guatemala, provides further evidence (that word again) that he may have been in a rival gang to Barrio 18 at the time.  Because otherwise, there is no fear.

Yahtzee.   

[TimHauck 2,875]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

Ah, carefully worded I see.  I'll do similarly.  I concede that his testimony is that he left for a gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang.

But given the situation at the hearing, with his family's business gone and them moved to Guatemala, provides further evidence (that word again) that he may have been in a rival gang to Barrio 18 at the time.  Because otherwise, there is no fear.

Yahtzee.   

Huh?  Sure, it’s possible he was making up that he had anything to fear by that point.  Because he wanted to stay in the US with his pregnant wife.  Not because he was afraid for a different reason.  C’mon man…

[Strike 5,542]

8 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

There is “evidence” he was in a gang in the US, not in El Salvador.

The reasoning for him not being deported in 2019 or whenever it was was that he was in danger from a gang.   I'm confused as to what that danger was from if it wasn't a rival gang and his family no longer lived or had a business in El Salvador.

[TimHauck 2,875]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

The reasoning for him not being deported in 2019 or whenever it was was that he was in danger from a gang.   I'm confused as to what that danger was from if it wasn't a rival gang and his family no longer lived or had a business in El Salvador.

According to him, the family was still being threatened even after the business closed, and even after some of them had moved to a different country.  But also:

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Sure, it’s possible he was making up that he had anything to fear by that point.  Because he wanted to stay in the US with his pregnant wife.  Not because he was afraid for a different reason. 

 

[jerryskids 6,797]

5 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Huh?  Sure, it’s possible he was making up that he had anything to fear by that point.  Because he wanted to stay in the US with his pregnant wife.  Not because he was afraid for a different reason.  C’mon man…

So he lied to the court, either to stay with his family, or he was in MS-13 (or another rival gang to Barrio 18), or both.

Bring him back, undo the stay, then... whatever.  I've already said that I don't support shipping people to El Salvador prisons, but unfortunately, people have dug their heels in on both sides of this, so I don't see how it can be avoided.

I'm moving on. 

 

[TimHauck 2,875]

Just now, jerryskids said:

So he lied to the court, either to stay with his family, or he was in MS-13 (or another rival gang to Barrio 18), or both.

Bring him back, undo the stay, then... whatever.  I've already said that I don't support shipping people to El Salvador prisons, but unfortunately, people have dug their heels in on both sides of this, so I don't see how it can be avoided.

I'm moving on. 

 

He may not have lied.  He said the family was still being threatened even after closing the business and moving.

[Strike 5,542]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

So he lied to the court, either to stay with his family, or he was in MS-13 (or another rival gang to Barrio 18), or both.

Bring him back, undo the stay, then... whatever.  I've already said that I don't support shipping people to El Salvador prisons, but unfortunately, people have dug their heels in on both sides of this, so I don't see how it can be avoided.

I'm moving on. 

 

To be clear, my stance is not that I support sending illegals to El Salvador prisons, especially when they have an order specifically prohibiting it.  I just think that it's done and don't really care that we do anything to get him back.  That would just be a waste of resources IMO.

[Strike 5,542]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

He may not have lied.  He said the family was still being threatened even after closing the business and moving.

Does this really make sense to you?  It doesn't pass the smell test IMO

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

I love his the mystery of a guy with no M-13 connections being defamed across the world as being an MS-13 criminal must have some explanation to it. 

[Strike 5,542]

4 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I love his the mystery of a guy with no M-13 connections being defamed across the world as being an MS-13 criminal must have some explanation to it. 

A court determined he was a member of that gang

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

A court determined he was a member of that gang

At the bond hearing a magistrate accepted an affidavit from a cop to deny bail. At the subsequent determinative hearing it was found he had no gang ties. None, quite the opposite. A gang tried to recruit him when he was 12years old to get at his family.

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

All of this discussion about whether or not he is, was, or should have been a gang member, and whether or not this should affect his deportation,  can and should be resolved with facts presented in a court of law. But that entails him returning to the United States. We cannot guarantee that El Salvador will release him back to U.S. custody, but based on the Supreme Court decision the Trump Administration is legally obligated to formally and publicly request his return. This they have not done, and are publicly refusing to do, which places the Trump Administration in contempt. 
 

At the moment this is the only pressing issue in this matter before us: ultimately will the Trump Administration abide by the decision of the SC and formerly request the return of Abrego Garcia? And if they don’t what happens next? 

[Strike 5,542]

13 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

At the bond hearing a magistrate accepted an affidavit from a cop to deny bail. At the subsequent determinative hearing it was found he had no gang ties. None, quite the opposite. A gang tried to recruit him when he was 12years old to get at his family.

You guys can keep rationalizing all you want.  Doesn't change the court's findings.

[Strike 5,542]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

All of this discussion about whether or not he is, was, or should have been a gang member, and whether or not this should affect his deportation,  can and should be resolved with facts presented in a court of law. But that entails him returning to the United States. We cannot guarantee that El Salvador will release him back to U.S. custody, but based on the Supreme Court decision the Trump Administration is legally obligated to formally and publicly request his return. This they have not done, and are publicly refusing to do, which places the Trump Administration in contempt. 
 

At the moment this is the only pressing issue in this matter before us: ultimately will the Trump Administration abide by the decision of the SC and formerly request the return of Abrego Garcia? And if they don’t what happens next? 

SC didn't say that.  You guys keep mischaracterizing that ruling.  Cut it out Pedo.

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

18 minutes ago, Strike said:

You guys can keep rationalizing all you want.  Doesn't change the court's findings.

I posted the whole finding of facts from the 2nd hearing. My guess is looking at it someone heard Garcia was wanted by Barrio 18 & either the informant or the cop conflated that with being in MS13. 

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

And as for the wife & the claim about him beating her, fine, bring that in Maryland, but the same woman says Garcia was never involved with MS13. So pick your poison.

[Strike 5,542]

9 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

And as for the wife & the claim about him beating her, fine, bring that in Maryland, but the same woman says Garcia was never involved with MS13. So pick your poison.

We don't have to pick a poison.  He has a final order of deportation.  We CAN deport him.  We shouldn't have deported him to El Salvador but I won't lose any tears over it personally. 

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

7 minutes ago, Strike said:

We don't have to pick a poison.  He has a final order of deportation.  We CAN deport him.  We shouldn't have deported him to El Salvador but I won't lose any tears over it personally. 

I know I'm missing something, these are the orders I'm familiar with:

• Bond hearing 2019 - ordered held.
• Hearing on asylum and removal - request for removal denied, Trump DHS released him.
• USSC and prior district and appeals courts, ordered feds return him.
• Judge Xini, enforcing the USSC order, strictly ordered him returned.

[SaintsInDome2006 441]

These were the facts found by the court in 2019.

Quote

 

The Respondent is a 24-year old native of El Salvador. He was born in 1995 in Los Nogales neighborhood, San Salvador, El Salvador. The Respondent testified that he fears returning to his country because the Barrio 18 gang was targeting him and threatening him with death because of his family ' s pupusa2 business. The Respondent's mother, Cecilia, ran the business out of her home. Although the business had no formal storefront, everyone in the town knew to get their pupusas from "Pupuseria Cecilia."

The Respondent's father, brother and two sisters all helped run the family business. The Respondent's job was to go to the grocery store to buy the supplies needed for the pupusas, and then he and his brother would do deliveries four days a week to the people in the town that ordered pupusas from Cecilia. At some point, Barrio 18 realized the family was making money from their family business and they began extorting the Respondent's mother, Cecilia. They demanded a regular stipend of "rent" money from the business, beginning with a monthly payment and then requiring weekly payments.

The gang threatened to harm the Respondent, his older brother Cesar, and the family in general if their demands were not met. Alternatively, they told Cecelia that if she could not pay the extortion money, she could tum Cesar over to them to become part of their gang. The Abrego family paid the money on a regular basis, whenever they could, and hid Cesar from the gang. On one occasion, the gang came to the family's home and threatened to kill Cesar if the family did not pay the rent.

The family responded by sending Cesar to the U.S. After Cesar left, the gang started recruiting the Respondent. They told Cecilia that she would not have to pay rent any more if she let him join the gang. The mother refused to let this happen. The gang then threatened to kill the Respondent. When the Respondent was around 12- years old, the gang came to the home again, telling Cecilia that they would take him because she wasn't paying money from the family's pupusa business. The Respondent's father prevented the gang from taking the Respondent that day by paying the gang all of the money that they wanted. During the days, the gang would watch the Respondent when he went back and forth to school. The members of the gangs all had many tattoos and always carried weapons. Eventually, the family had enough and moved from Los Nogales to the 10th of October neighborhood. This town was about 10 minutes away, by car, from Los Nogales. Shortly after the family moved, members of Barrio 18 from Nogales went to the 10th of October and let their fellow gang members know that the family had moved to that neighborhood. Barrio 18 members visited the house demanding the rent money from the pupusa business again.

They went to the house twice threatening to rape and kill the Respondent's two sisters and threatening the Respondent. The Respondent's parents were so fearful that they kept the Respondent inside the home as much as possible. Finally, the family decided they had to close the pupusa business and move to another area, Los Andes, about a 15 minute drive from their last residence. Even at this new location, the family kept the Respondent indoors most of the time because of the threats on his life. After four months of living in fear, the Respondent's parents sent the Respondent to the U.S. Even though the Respondent's father was a former policeman, they family never reported anything to the police regarding the gang extorting the family business.

The gang members had threatened Cecilia, telling her that if she ever reported anything to the police that they would kill the entire family. The family believed them, because they were well aware of the rampant corruption of the police in El Salvador and they believed that if they reported it to the police, the police would do nothing. At present, even though the family has now shut down the pupusa business, Barrio 18 continues to harass and threaten the Respondent's two sisters and parents in Guatemala. Additionally, they have targeted a brother-in-law who now lives with the family.

 

 

[TimHauck 2,875]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Does this really make sense to you?  It doesn't pass the smell test IMO

Depends how successful the business was IMO.  If the gang knew it was very successful and thus allowed the family to no longer need to work and live off the past money they made from the business, then yes it would make sense to me if they were still making threats to get more money even after the business closed.

[jbycho 754]

On 5/5/2025 at 12:05 PM, Strike said:

Banned alias making a bunch of excuses for a wife beating illegal alien gang banger.  Gee, I wonder why you've been banned 10+ times?

Truth. 

[TimHauck 2,875]

27 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I posted the whole finding of facts from the 2nd hearing. My guess is looking at it someone heard Garcia was wanted by Barrio 18 & either the informant or the cop conflated that with being in MS13. 

I don’t think the cop knew anything about Barrio 18.  He just arrested a bunch of guys and asked if his informant knew any of them.

[jbycho 754]

5 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I don’t think the cop knew anything about Barrio 18.  He just arrested a bunch of guys and asked if his informant knew any of them.