Trump goes to Russia to meet Putin

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

10 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

Just pure gibberish with no factual piece to it whatsoever

You don't think trump wants a peace prize?  He says so almost every day.

You think he wants to save lives?  He killed people by shutting down usaid. He also took away healthcare and food.

[Sandy Loam 218]

Just now, Ron_Artest said:

You don't think trump wants a peace prize?  He says so almost every day.

You think he wants to save lives?  He killed people by shutting down usaid. He also took away healthcare and food.

Never mind that it has been reported that he asked for a prize nomination. This is the same clown who wants to add himself to Mount Rushmore and get a third term.

When will MAGA wake up and see Trump for the self-servicing, narcissistic ass clown that he is?

They're already making excuses and whatabouting this terrible deal that would have Ukraine give up unoccupied territy in exchange for nothing.

Big, bad Trump couldn't get Putin to concede anything and is OK with a democracy to give up land to a bloodthirsty, authoritarian regime that started the bloodiest war in Europe since World War II. The latest figures I saw put Russian casualties at 1.2 million.

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

4 hours ago, avoiding injuries said:

 you’re rooting for Putin over Trump. 

They appear to be on the same side. 

[Sandy Loam 218]

21 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

What's the alternative? American boots on the ground to beat the mighty Russian empire? 

How do you see this ending?? 

Is this the end that Trump envisioned when he went to Alaska to give Putin a good talking to and get a ceasefire?

Russia broke a written agreement when it invaded Ukraine, so any new agreement is as useless as teets on a fire ant.

Just admit that your beloved boyo kowtowed to Putin. Ther is no other way around this. WEAK.

Appeasement historically has not worked. Just ask Poland.

Ukraine certainly will not agree to give up unoccupied land, and then Trump will do his TACO thing, and the situation will worsen. 

Where are the "severe consequences" Trump said he would unleash on Russia without that ceasefire he stomped into Alaska to get?

Focking weak, weak, weak.

[Sandy Loam 218]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

They appear to be on the same side. 

You called man, and it's playing out exactly as you said.

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

57 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

No,. because at least it's something. The Democrats never once tried to stop this war. 

Prove me wrong 

Sanctions and defense to get Putin to withdraw.  That stops the war.

The only way you want to stop the war is Russia takes Ukraine.

[thegeneral 3,301]

“Reports” of potential security guarantee in form of Article 5 like agreement. Probably bullshit but if that were to happen Ukraine would need to look at that deal.

[Horseman 2,560]

Imagine being so far gone thinking the only way to stop the war is to get Putin to withdraw.  Also peace prize doesn't mean saving lives.  

 

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

7 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

“Reports” of potential security guarantee in form of Article 5 like agreement. Probably bullshit but if that were to happen Ukraine would need to look at that deal.

Putin would never agree to that.  Putin wants all of Ukraine, and trump is too weak to stop him.

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

Just now, Horseman said:

Imagine being so far gone thinking the only way to stop the war is to get Putin to withdraw.  Also peace prize doesn't mean saving lives.  

 

How would you stop the war?

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

1 minute ago, thegeneral said:

“Reports” of potential security guarantee in form of Article 5 like agreement. Probably bullshit but if that were to happen Ukraine would need to look at that deal.

Yeah two problems with that: first, Trump doesn’t have the ability to offer a long term security guarantee. That would require an act of Congress. And it’s kind of a big deal. It doesn’t mean we aid Ukraine as we’re doing now- it means we go to war if Russia attacks again. I’m as big a supporter of Ukraine as anyone here but I don’t know if I want to do this. 
 

The second problem is for Ukraine and it’s based on history: in 1938 at Munich England offered to have Czechoslovakia give up the Sudetenland in return for a security guarantee, by England, of the rest of Czechoslovakia. Hitler agreed knowing the guarantee was worthless. Czechoslovakia agreed; what choice did they have? Sure enough  few months later Germany occupied the rest of Czech and England did nothing. Zelenskyy knows this history very well. Why should he trust us to keep our word? 

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

Reporter: Is war inevitable, sir? 

 Neville Chamberlain: I would not say so. It’s really up to the Czechs. 
 

Amazing how history has repeated itself. And we now have our new Neville Chamberlain. 

[thegeneral 3,301]

2 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

Putin would never agree to that.  Putin wants all of Ukraine, and trump is too weak to stop him.

Who knows. They are “reports” so very well me be BS.

If that were to be agreed upon, Ukraine would have to give up the land that was stolen unfortunately but this would be about a good am ending as they could hope for. 

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

5 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Imagine being so far gone thinking the only way to stop the war is to get Putin to withdraw.  Also peace prize doesn't mean saving lives.  

 

Trump two days ago: if I don’t get a ceasefire I will get up and leave the conference and there will be consequences. 
 

Trump today: A ceasefire isn’t necessary.

You want to explain this? 

[thegeneral 3,301]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yeah two problems with that: first, Trump doesn’t have the ability to offer a long term security guarantee. That would require an act of Congress. And it’s kind of a big deal. It doesn’t mean we aid Ukraine as we’re doing now- it means we go to war if Russia attacks again. I’m as big a supporter of Ukraine as anyone here but I don’t know if I want to do this. 
 

The second problem is for Ukraine and it’s based on history: in 1938 at Munich England offered to have Czechoslovakia give up the Sudetenland in return for a security guarantee, by England, of the rest of Czechoslovakia. Hitler agreed knowing the guarantee was worthless. Czechoslovakia agreed; what choice did they have? Sure enough  few months later Germany occupied the rest of Czech and England did nothing. Zelenskyy knows this history very well. Why should he trust us to keep our word? 

The alternative is Ukraine gets no more aide, Ukraine gets pounded, Russia makes all the terms.

Zelenskyy has zero leverage, he should be looking at securing the best deal he can lock down. After Trump’s win I am surprised we have gone this long providing aide.

[Gepetto 1,383]

Trump changes course on ceasefire demand. 

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

A great and very successful day in Alaska! The meeting with President Vladimir Putin of Russia went very well, as did a late night phone call with President Zelenskyy of Ukraine, and various European Leaders, including the highly respected Secretary General of NATO. It was determined by all that the best way to end the horrific war between Russia and Ukraine is to go directly to a Peace Agreement, which would end the war, and not a mere Ceasefire Agreement, which often times do not hold up. President Zelenskyy will be coming to D.C., the Oval Office, on Monday afternoon. If all works out, we will then schedule a meeting with President Putin. Potentially, millions of people’s lives will be saved. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

1 minute ago, thegeneral said:

The alternative is Ukraine gets no more aide, Ukraine gets pounded, Russia makes all the terms.

Zelenskyy has zero leverage, he should be looking at securing the best deal he can lock down. After Trump’s win I am surprised we have gone this long providing aide.

Like the Czechs he may be forced into it. Depends on the rest of Europe. But it’s a surrender, IMO. 

[thegeneral 3,301]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yeah two problems with that: first, Trump doesn’t have the ability to offer a long term security guarantee. That would require an act of Congress. And it’s kind of a big deal. It doesn’t mean we aid Ukraine as we’re doing now- it means we go to war if Russia attacks again. I’m as big a supporter of Ukraine as anyone here but I don’t know if I want to do this. 
 

The second problem is for Ukraine and it’s based on history: in 1938 at Munich England offered to have Czechoslovakia give up the Sudetenland in return for a security guarantee, by England, of the rest of Czechoslovakia. Hitler agreed knowing the guarantee was worthless. Czechoslovakia agreed; what choice did they have? Sure enough  few months later Germany occupied the rest of Czech and England did nothing. Zelenskyy knows this history very well. Why should he trust us to keep our word? 

The security deal would ensure that this won’t happen again in what is left of Ukraine. Putin isn’t attacking any nation with this type of backup, that’s the point.

 

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

3 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

Trump changes course on ceasefire demand. 

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

A great and very successful day in Alaska! The meeting with President Vladimir Putin of Russia went very well, as did a late night phone call with President Zelenskyy of Ukraine, and various European Leaders, including the highly respected Secretary General of NATO. It was determined by all that the best way to end the horrific war between Russia and Ukraine is to go directly to a Peace Agreement, which would end the war, and not a mere Ceasefire Agreement, which often times do not hold up. President Zelenskyy will be coming to D.C., the Oval Office, on Monday afternoon. If all works out, we will then schedule a meeting with President Putin. Potentially, millions of people’s lives will be saved. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

Are you good with this reversal? 

[thegeneral 3,301]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

Like the Czechs he may be forced into it. Depends on the rest of Europe. But it’s a surrender, IMO. 

Yes it’s a surrender. If they were to get a security guarantee it would be the best possible outcome at this point -  doubt it’s a real thing but talking about this if it were a legitimate thing.

 What is the alternative for Ukraine? That land is gone.

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

1 minute ago, thegeneral said:

The security deal would ensure that this won’t happen again in what is left of Ukraine. Putin isn’t attacking any nation with this type of backup, that’s the point.

 

Are you sure? I’m not. 
 

There is a reason, in the nuclear age, that we don’t put too many of these guarantees down on paper. For example we have never officially guaranteed Taiwan, because if we did it would bring us closer to nuclear war. Do you want to fight a nuclear war over the remainder of Ukraine? I’m no isolationist but I don’t. 

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

3 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

 

 What is the alternative for Ukraine? That land is gone.

And we don’t know this either. Russia has lost a million men and this war is killing their economy. If they were a free country there would be thousands of protests there- this is their Vietnam War. 
 

If we were to fully support Ukraine AND sanction Russia (as Trump has threatened but never done) I believe it might force them to withdraw. At the very least it would force Putin to come to the table with a much better offer. But now we’ll never know. 

[thegeneral 3,301]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Are you sure? I’m not. 
 

There is a reason, in the nuclear age, that we don’t put too many of these guarantees down on paper. For example we have never officially guaranteed Taiwan, because if we did it would bring us closer to nuclear war. Do you want to fight a nuclear war over the remainder of Ukraine? I’m no isolationist but I don’t. 

Why has Putin not attacked Poland? Why did he choose Ukraine. Because he could.

One thing we have learned over the past few years of this war is he won’t do shlt when pushed. Putin said he would bomb Paris or Berlin many times starting with if aide was given to Ukraine by the West. Fast forward years later and we have US planes flying out of Kyiv and drones bombing in Russian lands.

He’s a blood thirsty, murderous, shitbird. But he also enjoys living in his palaces throughout Russia.

Putin got over on NATO, he stole this land because he could. He gets to keep it but the only way you don’t allow this to happen again is some type of security guarantee.

You want to do this all over again in 5 years?

 

[thegeneral 3,301]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

And we don’t know this either. Russia has lost a million men and this war is killing their economy. If they were a free country there would be thousands of protests there- this is their Vietnam War. 
 

If we were to fully support Ukraine AND sanction Russia (as Trump has threatened but never done) I believe it might force them to withdraw. At the very least it would force Putin to come to the table with a much better offer. But now we’ll never know. 

Even if that were true the reality is this is not going to happen. It’s been true since day one. The way this war “ends in 24 hours” goes like this.

Don tells Russia he’s going to do what you said (he won’t) he tells Ukraine he will end all funding (he will do that). Russia knows this, Putin doesn’t give a fock if he puts another 100k troops through the meat grinder. 

Zelensky should be cutting any deal he can get. It’s terrible but it’s the reality. Personally surprised it has taken this long to get to this moment after Don won.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,376]

17 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Are you good with this reversal? 

im good with it if it ends the war

 

[Horseman 2,560]

37 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

How would you stop the war?

Both sides need concessions. Tiny Z hasn't shown any willingness.  If and when it happens liberals will be outraged that Putin got a piece of Ukraine. But the make-believe world liberals live in don't understand that sometimes life isn't fair.

Then there will be peace until another weakling like Biden is in office and Putin will invade again.  

[thegeneral 3,301]

1 minute ago, Horseman said:

Both sides need concessions. Tiny Z hasn't shown any willingness.  If and when it happens liberals will be outraged that Putin got a piece of Ukraine. But the make-believe world liberals live in don't understand that sometimes life isn't fair.

Then there will be peace until another weakling like Biden is in office and Putin will invade again.  

What are Russia’s concessions. I haven’t seen them give up anything.

[Horseman 2,560]

35 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Trump two days ago: if I don’t get a ceasefire I will get up and leave the conference and there will be consequences. 
 

Trump today: A ceasefire isn’t necessary.

You want to explain this? 

Most important thing in negotiation,  especially if you're the mediator, is to remain flexible. 

Man you really suck at real life.  

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

5 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Both sides need concessions. Tiny Z hasn't shown any willingness.  If and when it happens liberals will be outraged that Putin got a piece of Ukraine. But the make-believe world liberals live in don't understand that sometimes life isn't fair.

Then there will be peace until another weakling like Biden is in office and Putin will invade again.  

You think Putin is willing to make concessions?  How did that work out last night?

[Ron_Artest 1,675]

9 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Most important thing in negotiation,  especially if you're the mediator, is to remain flexible. 

Man you really suck at real life.  

I demand a cease fire or there will be several consequences.

Ok no ceasefire, no consequences, let's just keep talking.

That's not being flexible.  That is Trump bending the knee and kissing Putins ring.

[Gepetto 1,383]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Are you sure? I’m not. 
 

There is a reason, in the nuclear age, that we don’t put too many of these guarantees down on paper. For example we have never officially guaranteed Taiwan, because if we did it would bring us closer to nuclear war. Do you want to fight a nuclear war over the remainder of Ukraine? I’m no isolationist but I don’t. 

I wasn't there for the discussion. I would need more info. On the surface it doesn't seem good.

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

41 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Most important thing in negotiation,  especially if you're the mediator, is to remain flexible. 

Man you really suck at real life.  

Apparently to you real life means giving in to a murderous dictator without getting anything in return. You’re right I would suck at that. Sounds like it might be right up your alley though. 

[Voltaire 5,350]

Its all being kept quiet for now. We'll see how it plays out.

You have to figure that if an agreement is ever reached, it'll be some variation of Russia keeps what they have conquered by that point and both sides end the hostilities end.

[Sean Mooney 1,994]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Apparently to you real life means giving in to a murderous dictator without getting anything in return. You’re right I would suck at that. Sounds like it might be right up your alley though. 

The only negotiation Horsesh!t knows is when the customer says "Can you take pickles off my Big Mac?"

[Voltaire 5,350]

1 minute ago, Sean Mooney said:

The only negotiation Horsesh!t knows is when the customer says "Can you take pickles off my Big Mac?"

No we can't. And we won't let you take them off either. You will either eat this Big Mac with pickles willingly or we will be compelled to find some other way to force these pickles down your throat.

Your Bill is $13.42. Thank You. Come back again.

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

25 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Its all being kept quiet for now. We'll see how it plays out.

You have to figure that if an agreement is ever reached, it'll be some variation of Russia keeps what they have conquered by that point and both sides end the hostilities end.

Are you willing to give a security guarantee to Ukraine? I know I sound like an isolationist here but I kind of don’t. Giving them aid is one thing. A security guarantee, the equivalent of NATO, that’s something else. Neither Biden nor Obama was willing to do that for good reason. 

[The Real timschochet 6,955]

See the thing is, a security guarantee goes way beyond Putin (and Trump and Zelenskyy for that matter.) Russia is ALWAYS going to want Ukraine. They always have. 50 years from now this is going to be an issue. Like China and Taiwan, like the two Koreas, it’s never going away. Unlike many of you I do think we need to be involved. But not a military guarantee. I just don’t think we can. 

[thegeneral 3,301]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

See the thing is, a security guarantee goes way beyond Putin (and Trump and Zelenskyy for that matter.) Russia is ALWAYS going to want Ukraine. They always have. 50 years from now this is going to be an issue. Like China and Taiwan, like the two Koreas, it’s never going away. Unlike many of you I do think we need to be involved. But not a military guarantee. I just don’t think we can. 

If there is no military guarantee then there is nothing. We have already seen what happens without that. 

[Sandy Loam 218]

2 hours ago, thegeneral said:

Yes it’s a surrender. If they were to get a security guarantee it would be the best possible outcome at this point -  doubt it’s a real thing but talking about this if it were a legitimate thing.

 What is the alternative for Ukraine? That land is gone.

There was a security guarantee in the deal that Russia broke when it invaded Ukraine. We provided arms as we agreed to do. 

What makes you think Russia won't break any new deal?

Any security guarantee would basically be like being in NATO to have any hope of being effective.

[Tree of Knowledge 1,925]

Shine up that Nobel Peace Prize.