Democrats achieved the worst of all worlds with their shutdown strategy

[seafoam1 3,422]

 Even democrats hate democrats. 

Trump is winning big and everyone hates mdpee. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-achieved-the-worst-of-all-worlds-with-their-shutdown-strategy/ar-AA1QaWJP?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6912c40e624b4b3884a187f20f5bccf5&ei=11

 

A group of eight mostly moderate Senate Democrats defected from the party line and struck a deal with Republicans on Sunday to set in motion a likely end to the federal government shutdown. MSNBC reports that the emerging deal “mirrors what Senate Majority Leader John Thune, R-S.D., floated weeks ago during an interview with MSNBC: Reopen the government now, and Republicans will later give Democrats a vote on extending the expiring Affordable Care Act subsidies.”

 

This isn’t a good deal for Democrats. The point of the shutdown was not to force a symbolic vote on extending ACA subsidies, but to get Republicans to agree to support a real extension. There are other elements of the deal as well, including back pay for furloughed federal workers and the rehiring of laid-off workers, but those provisions are mostly cleanup after the shutdown and don’t relate to the premise for triggering it in the first place.

Democrats appear to have achieved the worst of all possible worlds with this conclusion. Their refusal to vote to fund the government set off the longest government shutdown in history, and they held the line long enough that the slowdown of government operations and services became extremely visible. Air traffic dipped due to staffing shortages, and Trump refused to appropriately distribute emergency funds for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), colloquially known as food stamps, to tens of millions of poor Americans. Yet now Democrats have basically nothing to show for it — and have infuriated the parts of the base eager for a sustained fight with President Donald Trump.

[weepaws 3,351]

Shame on dictator trump for holding Americans hostage 

[seafoam1 3,422]

8 hours ago, weepaws said:

Shame on dictator trump for holding Americans hostage 

[MDC 7,889]

Everybody hates Peefoam.  

[Ron_Artest 2,225]

Peafoam achieved the worst of all worlds with his posting strategy.

[seafoam1 3,422]

15 minutes ago, MDC said:

Everybody hates Peefoam.  

 

1 minute ago, Ron_Artest said:

Peafoam achieved the worst of all worlds with his posting strategy.

The girls are hurting again.

Mdpee and gheyartest got nothing else in life.

[seafoam1 3,422]

9 hours ago, seafoam1 said:

 Even democrats hate democrats. 

Trump is winning big and everyone hates mdpee. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-achieved-the-worst-of-all-worlds-with-their-shutdown-strategy/ar-AA1QaWJP?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6912c40e624b4b3884a187f20f5bccf5&ei=11

 

A group of eight mostly moderate Senate Democrats defected from the party line and struck a deal with Republicans on Sunday to set in motion a likely end to the federal government shutdown. MSNBC reports that the emerging deal “mirrors what Senate Majority Leader John Thune, R-S.D., floated weeks ago during an interview with MSNBC: Reopen the government now, and Republicans will later give Democrats a vote on extending the expiring Affordable Care Act subsidies.”

 

This isn’t a good deal for Democrats. The point of the shutdown was not to force a symbolic vote on extending ACA subsidies, but to get Republicans to agree to support a real extension. There are other elements of the deal as well, including back pay for furloughed federal workers and the rehiring of laid-off workers, but those provisions are mostly cleanup after the shutdown and don’t relate to the premise for triggering it in the first place.

Democrats appear to have achieved the worst of all possible worlds with this conclusion. Their refusal to vote to fund the government set off the longest government shutdown in history, and they held the line long enough that the slowdown of government operations and services became extremely visible. Air traffic dipped due to staffing shortages, and Trump refused to appropriately distribute emergency funds for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), colloquially known as food stamps, to tens of millions of poor Americans. Yet now Democrats have basically nothing to show for it — and have infuriated the parts of the base eager for a sustained fight with President Donald Trump.

The poor idiot democrats. Trump is just kicking them around. 

[supermike80 2,084]

10 hours ago, seafoam1 said:

 Even democrats hate democrats. 

Trump is winning big and everyone hates mdpee. 

 

 Their refusal to vote to fund the government set off the longest government shutdown in history, and they held the line long enough that the slowdown of government operations and services became extremely visible. 

Interesting quote from that article.   And here many liberals here were blaming the republicans.  Hmmmmm

[seafoam1 3,422]

4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Interesting quote from that article.   And here many liberals here were blaming the republicans.  Hmmmmm

Even the true democrats know. The non "get Trump at all costs" ones. Somehow the TDS affected though just can't grasp it. 

[Kopy 593]

10 hours ago, weepaws said:

Shame on dictator trump for holding Americans hostage 

I didn't know he was part of the voting process.

Thanks for the clarity. Now I know.

[The Real timschochet 7,465]

The shutdown benefited the Democrats. Ending the shutdown benefited the Democrats. The Democratic base getting royally pissed off and blaming moderate Dems for caving also benefits the Democrats. 

The goal of the Democrats above all else is to gain control of the House in 2027, possibly the Senate as well, and the Presidency in 2029. This shutdown  helped them do that by making Republicans go on record regarding healthcare and affordability, which will be the two decisive issues coming up. 

[seafoam1 3,422]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

The shutdown benefited the Democrats. Ending the shutdown benefited the Democrats. The Democratic base getting royally pissed off and blaming moderate Dems for caving also benefits the Democrats. 

The goal of the Democrats above all else is to gain control of the House in 2027, possibly the Senate as well, and the Presidency in 2029. This shutdown  helped them do that by making Republicans go on record regarding healthcare and affordability, which will be the two decisive issues coming up. 

Another farcical story from tim. 

So funny. 

[supermike80 2,084]

5 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Another farcical story from tim. 

So funny. 

Yeah.   There isn't much agreement on Tim's position.  From either side.  the shutdown further exposed how fractured the democrats are.   It didn't help their cause at all.  Almost no one agrees this was in anyway good for the dems. Even MSDNC disagrees with Tim.   But remember, he is smarter than literally everyone that lives today.  So keep that in mind

[The Real timschochet 7,465]

1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah.   There isn't much agreement on Tim's position.  From either side.  the shutdown further exposed how fractured the democrats are.   It didn't help their cause at all.  Almost no one agrees this was in anyway good for the dems. Even MSDNC disagrees with Tim.   But remember, he is smarter than literally everyone that lives today.  So keep that in mind

I didn’t come up with it. Been listening a lot to POTUS radio on Sirius- Julie Mason, who is pretty centrist and, I think, thoughtful and objective. 

Also not everyone on MSNBC disagrees with this. Try watching Stephanie Ruhle. She may be the smartest person on that network as she looks at everything from a financial POV. She thinks, as I do, that this is ultimately a huge win for Democrats. 

[Ron_Artest 2,225]

55 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I didn’t come up with it. Been listening a lot to POTUS radio on Sirius- Julie Mason, who is pretty centrist and, I think, thoughtful and objective. 

Also not everyone on MSNBC disagrees with this. Try watching Stephanie Ruhle. She may be the smartest person on that network as she looks at everything from a financial POV. She thinks, as I do, that this is ultimately a huge win for Democrats. 

Lawrence O'Donnell was calling it a huge win for the democrats last night but I don't know how much I agree with him.

I didn't listen to Stephanie last night.  I think she's great.  Smart tough Jersey girl with a history on Wall St.

[squistion 2,539]

21 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

Lawrence O'Donnell was calling it a huge win for the democrats last night but I don't know how much I agree with him.

I didn't listen to Stephanie last night.  I think she's great.  Smart tough Jersey girl with a history on Wall St.

I'm not sure I agree either. But here is his take (video segment and text at link)

https://www.mediaite.com/media/news/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-claims-trump-allies-caved-on-shutdown-and-brought-epstein-files-back-to-life/

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell Claims Trump Allies ‘Caved’ on Shutdown — And Brought Epstein Files ‘Back to Life!

MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell claimed on Monday that it was President Donald Trump and his allies who “caved” to end the government shutdown — and in the process brought the so-called Epstein Files “back to life.”

Democrats and their allies are livid over a deal that a small group of Democratic senators made with Republicans in order to end the government shutdown.

Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA), Sen. Angus King (I-ME), Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D-NV), Sen. Jacky Rosen (D-NV), Sen.  Durbin (D-IL), Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH), and Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) voted to advance a bill that would reopen the government in exchange for some job protections and a promise to hold a vote on Obamacare subsidies in December.

On Monday night’s edition of MSNBC’s The Last Word, O’Donnell argued that it was Trump and 271 GOP members of Congress who were “forced” to change their positions by the five Democrats who moved to make the compromise.

He also noted with relish that the end of the shutdown opens the way for Democrats to press Trump and his administration on issues related to deceased sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell.

[WhiteWonder 2,928]

20 minutes ago, squistion said:

I'm not sure I agree either. But here is his take (video segment and text at link)

https://www.mediaite.com/media/news/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-claims-trump-allies-caved-on-shutdown-and-brought-epstein-files-back-to-life/

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell Claims Trump Allies ‘Caved’ on Shutdown — And Brought Epstein Files ‘Back to Life!

MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell claimed on Monday that it was President Donald Trump and his allies who “caved” to end the government shutdown — and in the process brought the so-called Epstein Files “back to life.”

Democrats and their allies are livid over a deal that a small group of Democratic senators made with Republicans in order to end the government shutdown.

Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA), Sen. Angus King (I-ME), Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D-NV), Sen. Jacky Rosen (D-NV), Sen.  Durbin (D-IL), Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH), and Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) voted to advance a bill that would reopen the government in exchange for some job protections and a promise to hold a vote on Obamacare subsidies in December.

On Monday night’s edition of MSNBC’s The Last Word, O’Donnell argued that it was Trump and 271 GOP members of Congress who were “forced” to change their positions by the five Democrats who moved to make the compromise.

He also noted with relish that the end of the shutdown opens the way for Democrats to press Trump and his administration on issues related to deceased sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell.

so if democrats and their allies are livid based on what a small group of dem senators did in exchange for "some job protections" and a promise to vote on obamacare subsidies, how does an msnbc host paint that as Trump and his allies "caved"?   interesting, unbiased take. 

[Ron_Artest 2,225]

23 minutes ago, squistion said:

I'm not sure I agree either. But here is his take (video segment and text at link)

https://www.mediaite.com/media/news/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-claims-trump-allies-caved-on-shutdown-and-brought-epstein-files-back-to-life/

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell Claims Trump Allies ‘Caved’ on Shutdown — And Brought Epstein Files ‘Back to Life!

MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell claimed on Monday that it was President Donald Trump and his allies who “caved” to end the government shutdown — and in the process brought the so-called Epstein Files “back to life.”

Democrats and their allies are livid over a deal that a small group of Democratic senators made with Republicans in order to end the government shutdown.

Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA), Sen. Angus King (I-ME), Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto (D-NV), Sen. Jacky Rosen (D-NV), Sen.  Durbin (D-IL), Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH), and Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) voted to advance a bill that would reopen the government in exchange for some job protections and a promise to hold a vote on Obamacare subsidies in December.

On Monday night’s edition of MSNBC’s The Last Word, O’Donnell argued that it was Trump and 271 GOP members of Congress who were “forced” to change their positions by the five Democrats who moved to make the compromise.

He also noted with relish that the end of the shutdown opens the way for Democrats to press Trump and his administration on issues related to deceased sex criminal Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell.

Where I do agree with him is let's move back to Epstein.  He did a lot of good reporting on Epstein up to the shutdown, we can move back to that with the new rep being sworn in and getting that vote complete to release the files.

 

[Fnord 2,524]

There's some steam out there that this will be an even bigger win for the younger, more progressive Dems, for better or worse. The senators that broke ranks are all old (except Fetterman) and mostly on their way out. We'll have to see what happens when the healthcare stuff comes back up.

In the meantime, let's see some Epstein dirt!

[The Real timschochet 7,465]

The Epstein stuff is an added plus but not really part of my argument. My argument is based on putting heath care front and center, which benefits Democrats. 

 

[Frozenbeernuts 2,332]

2 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Interesting quote from that article.   And here many liberals here were blaming the republicans.  Hmmmmm

The pea brains who were the most upset about SNAP are mad that a deal was reached. They will never get it.

[supermike80 2,084]

24 minutes ago, Fnord said:

There's some steam out there that this will be an even bigger win for the younger, more progressive Dems, for better or worse. The senators that broke ranks are all old (except Fetterman) and mostly on their way out. We'll have to see what happens when the healthcare stuff comes back up.

In the meantime, let's see some Epstein dirt!

Im all for anyone connected with epsteins illegal crap being exposed.

That being said. These two have nothing to do with each other.  

The dems are getting killed over their deliberately shutting down the government.  Then giving in and gaining absolutely nothing.  It was a childish play that of course backfired on them massively.

Now, does that mean the younger dems are happy about all of this?  Sure.  Liberal thinking is bad enough, childish liberal thinking is outright dangerous.

 

[Fnord 2,524]

33 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Im all for anyone connected with epsteins illegal crap being exposed.

That being said. These two have nothing to do with each other.  

The dems are getting killed over their deliberately shutting down the government.  Then giving in and gaining absolutely nothing.  It was a childish play that of course backfired on them massively.

Now, does that mean the younger dems are happy about all of this?  Sure.  Liberal thinking is bad enough, childish liberal thinking is outright dangerous.

So this is how I know we get our information from different sources. In some quarters no doubt the Dems are getting roasted. In others, it's the Reps. Some are killing the Dems for capitulating, some hailing them for doing the right thing. Ultimately, both were at fault since D's could have voted for the CR, and R's could have pinched the filibuster to push it through like they've done in the past. Where one casts the majority of the blame will no doubt be determined by one's own biases which are shaped, at least in part, by where one gets their information. 

You aren't wrong in your position blaming the Dems, but what, if any, responsibility falls on the Rs? They could have opened the gov't. Instead they let SNAP benefits lapse, hurting a bunch of people, including many, many MAGA voters. Then Trump specifically targeted Democratic projects in Democratic states to be cut, strictly out of spite. That's never happened before. In the past, these disruptions did not occur during shutdowns. Why did they this time? And why is it wrong for Democrats to stand for affordable health care? And at what point does it become counterproductive to watch POTUS continually set (often illegal) precedents, all of which serve to further consolidate his own power?

[jonnyutah 547]

7 minutes ago, Fnord said:

And why is it wrong for Democrats to stand for affordable health care

Wish they were doing that!

They arent. They are standing for what ultimately only has a major effect on a very small percentage of the population at the expense of everybody else 

The biggest demographic influenced by what they are standing on are people that retired early because of these subsidies. 

They could just go back to the way it was in 2021 and have the means to do so. 

[supermike80 2,084]

1 hour ago, Fnord said:

So this is how I know we get our information from different sources. In some quarters no doubt the Dems are getting roasted. In others, it's the Reps. Some are killing the Dems for capitulating, some hailing them for doing the right thing. Ultimately, both were at fault since D's could have voted for the CR, and R's could have pinched the filibuster to push it through like they've done in the past. Where one casts the majority of the blame will no doubt be determined by one's own biases which are shaped, at least in part, by where one gets their information. 

You aren't wrong in your position blaming the Dems, but what, if any, responsibility falls on the Rs? They could have opened the gov't. Instead they let SNAP benefits lapse, hurting a bunch of people, including many, many MAGA voters. Then Trump specifically targeted Democratic projects in Democratic states to be cut, strictly out of spite. That's never happened before. In the past, these disruptions did not occur during shutdowns. Why did they this time? And why is it wrong for Democrats to stand for affordable health care? And at what point does it become counterproductive to watch POTUS continually set (often illegal) precedents, all of which serve to further consolidate his own power?

They didn't pinch the filibuster because of the ramifications it could have in the future.  More SC justices, Puerto Rico and DC statehood etc.  I said this before, why should the R's have to change the law in order to get this done when all the D's had to do was vote to continue--as they had before.   The dems tried to strong arm this and  they came out of it looking exceptionally weak.  Yeah, you're right...depending on the media, either side will claim the others lost here.   Not a shocking thing.   But I am going with my opinion, saying the R's failed the people because they didn't change the law in order to work around a D hissy fit is absurd.  .   Unlike like what I see from most D's, the R's were using reason and understanding that blowing up the filibuster would be very bad in the long term.   Strategic thinking...Something I feel is lacking with the D's.

Now, the spite thing?  Yeah not a fan.  But the thing is, others have done it in the past and would do it again.  What the D's are struggling with is Trump will actually say the quiet part out loud.  He has no filter.  

Affordable health care?  It's only affordable because the gubbermint is subsidizing it.  That's why.  Now if you are in the camp of the subsidies are ok in your world, I respect that.  But the ACA has cause MASSIVE increases in health care costs.  So now the gubbermint has to spend more and more and more to cover what was a poorly designed health plan.  And that's generally how gubbermint works, throw more money at a bad problem.   Amtrak and the postal service immediately come to mind.    

There are a lot of things about this President I do not like.  Lots.  But I will not agree that this was the R's fault for the shutdown.  The D's rolled the dice and came up craps.  

[Fnord 2,524]

6 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

They didn't pinch the filibuster because of the ramifications it could have in the future.  More SC justices, Puerto Rico and DC statehood etc.  I said this before, why should the R's have to change the law in order to get this done when all the D's had to do was vote to continue--as they had before.   The dems tried to strong arm this and  they came out of it looking exceptionally weak.  Yeah, you're right...depending on the media, either side will claim the others lost here.   Not a shocking thing.   But I am going with my opinion, saying the R's failed the people because they didn't change the law in order to work around a D hissy fit is absurd.  .   Unlike like what I see from most D's, the R's were using reason and understanding that blowing up the filibuster would be very bad in the long term.   Strategic thinking...Something I feel is lacking with the D's.

Now, the spite thing?  Yeah not a fan.  But the thing is, others have done it in the past and would do it again.  What the D's are struggling with is Trump will actually say the quiet part out loud.  He has no filter.  

Affordable health care?  It's only affordable because the gubbermint is subsidizing it.  That's why.  Now if you are in the camp of the subsidies are ok in your world, I respect that.  But the ACA has cause MASSIVE increases in health care costs.  So now the gubbermint has to spend more and more and more to cover what was a poorly designed health plan.  And that's generally how gubbermint works, throw more money at a bad problem.   Amtrak and the postal service immediately come to mind.    

There are a lot of things about this President I do not like.  Lots.  But I will not agree that this was the R's fault for the shutdown.  The D's rolled the dice and came up craps.  

Well if they've already done it once with the filibuster, why not do it again? It was just a procedural thing (reconciliation). They wouldn't have had to open themselves up to all the other shenanigans that come along with permanently nuking it. I would argue that Trump wanted that because it's part of his plan to remain in office for as long as he possibly can, but I know you consider that tinfoil hat stuff (I do too, and have said many times I hope I'm wrong). 

I believe that you are VERY wrong about the bolded and would like to see some links verifying that other POTUS's have shut down pet programs from the other party during a previous shutdown. This is a great illustration of why us anti-Trumpers legitimately consider him to be an EXISTENTIAL THREAT (I know everyone is sick of hearing that term). So much of what he does is flat-out unprecedented. Much of it is illegal. But he understands that by the time it winds through the courts, the damage will be done, and he has immunity for official actions. From where I sit, he's an authoritarian that's removed literally everyone that would ever tell him no, which allows him to indulge his worst instincts. It has nothing to do with what he says, other than being exasperated that he's literally telling us what he plans to do and 50 million people or so agree with him while being completely ignorant of the law and precedent.

This is not normal. This is not the way our country is supposed to work. 

[Maximum Overkill 2,449]

4 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

Lawrence O'Donnell

[The Real timschochet 7,465]

More and more Democrats (and those opposed to Trump) are coming to the conclusion that this result is good for Democrats. Latest is Nicole Wallace. 
 

Look the public doesn’t care about process. The reason they’ve been on the Democrats side in this whole affair is that they believe the Democrats want lower healthcare premiums and are fighting for it. It’s that simple. Now a reasonable, somewhat nuanced argument can be made that Republicans are also fighting for lower healthcare premiums- but Republicans aren’t making it. They’re losing the messaging war on this. 

[Maximum Overkill 2,449]

DEMOCRATS VOTED TO END HEALTHCARE FOR MILLIONS!!! 

[The Real timschochet 7,465]

One thing that I DO disagree with Wallace on- she thinks that the infighting among Dems over this (she called it “a circular firing squad”) is unhelpful. I disagree. The struggle between older moderate establishment party leaders and young, passionate radicals in one of the oldest stories in all of politics. It almost always serves to strengthen the party for the fight ahead. Another word for a “unified party” is a cult. 

[seafoam1 3,422]

50 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

One thing that I DO disagree with Wallace on- she thinks that the infighting among Dems over this (she called it “a circular firing squad”) is unhelpful. I disagree. The struggle between older moderate establishment party leaders and young, passionate radicals in one of the oldest stories in all of politics. It almost always serves to strengthen the party for the fight ahead. Another word for a “unified party” is a cult. 

[weepaws 3,351]

4 hours ago, seafoam1 said:

Your mommy, what was his name