Illegal Immigration - This chased torridjoe!

[Hitfreak 0]

I LIKE POSTING IN THREADS!!!

 

[torridjoe 48]

Not under the context we are using it here. Let's recap.

 

Premise: "Illegal" is not a good way to describe undocumented immigrants

 

Counter: "Illegal" is perfect because they are violating the law.

 

Counter: But it's not a crime

 

The original counter argument is refering specifically to the the connection between "illegal" and "law."

 

The premise is not, however. The premise was based on "illegal" being both poorly explicative (relative to "undocumented") and ideologically tinged.

 

The premise of the counter is that to say they are violating the law is technically true, but practically irrelevant, since they are not charged.

 

You keep saying that the law is not enforced, yet there are people sitting in jail for these crimes (see prior posts in this thread). Where exactly is your proof that these laws are not being prosecuted and where is your proof that this somehow means that the acts themselves are "decriminalized"?

 

Is this more "torrid-speak" or do you have something that will refute the mountains of evidence in this thread against you?

 

I've not seen anyone post a link to people who have been convicted of the crime of being here illegally.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

The premise is not, however. The premise was based on "illegal" being both poorly explicative (relative to "undocumented") and ideologically tinged.

 

The premise of the counter is that to say they are violating the law is technically true, but practically irrelevant, since they are not charged.

I've not seen anyone post a link to people who have been convicted of the crime of being here illegally.

 

Is this the law that you said did not exist or the law that you said did not denote a crime? You have me confused, but apparently not as much as you have confused yourself.

[torridjoe 48]

Admit it torrid, you were hanging your hat on the admittedly false premise that there were no laws governing undocumented immigration and now you are using this whole semantic mess to hide the fact that you don't want to call undocumented immigrants "illegal aliens"

 

ADMIT IT!!!!!!

 

How can I be hiding it, when it was the entire precipitate of the discussion at hand? I said up front I didn't think "illegal immigrant" was the right term. "alien" is even worse.

[Strike 6,024]

Muhammad,

 

Are you now saying that you weren't wrong earlier when you admitted you were wrong to say that being an illegal alien wasn't a crime?

[torridjoe 48]

Is this the law that you said did not exist or the law that you said did not denote a crime? You have me confused, but apparently not as much as you have confused yourself.

the law I suggested didn't exist.

[Birdseed 1]

 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

the law I suggested didn't exist.

 

The law that we pointed out did, in fact, exist and is so inconsequential (in your eyes) that it has been amended 3 times since 1990. Got it.

[torridjoe 48]

The law that we pointed out did, in fact, exist and is so inconsequential (in your eyes) that it has been amended 3 times since 1990. Got it.

 

You can amend it 100 times if you like. If you don't enforce it, it's as good as not being there.

[Strike 6,024]

My brain doesn't exist.

 

Fixored.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

You can amend it 100 times if you like. If you don't enforce it, it's as good as not being there.

 

Again, are you going to substantiate that the law is never enforced? I think that you would have a better chance of saying that the entire weight of the law is not brought onto each individual and that we take the lowest cost route of deporting the alien, putting the offense on their record for next time, and moving on. But that is just me.

[Toro 3]

Great--where are you showing a conviction for being here illegally? I've pointed out twice now that "conviction" refers to ADDITIONAL infractions, and have nothing to do with being found unlawfully in the country.

 

English, MF....Do YOU speak it????

 

Read Here: §2L1.2. Unlawfully Entering or Remaining in the United States

 

I can't tell if you are being serious anymore or you are just yanking my chain because I can't believe anyone in the world is this stupid. Even you.

[Strike 6,024]

English, MF....Do YOU speak it????

 

Read Here: §2L1.2. Unlawfully Entering or Remaining in the United States

 

I can't tell if you are being serious anymore or you are just yanking my chain because I can't believe anyone in the world is this stupid. Even you.

 

I don't think he's THAT stupid, just obstinant. I notice he won't answer my question about whether he was wrong when he said he was wrong earlier in this thread. LOL. Can't believe he's still trying to weasel his way out of this one. Reminds me of my dog trying to dig under the fence....

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

English, MF....Do YOU speak it????

 

Read Here: §2L1.2. Unlawfully Entering or Remaining in the United States

 

I can't tell if you are being serious anymore or you are just yanking my chain because I can't believe anyone in the world is this stupid. Even you.

 

I think that he is somehow under the impression that we want to give Jose three squares and a bed in one of our jails in order for him to be characterized as being convicted of this crime. Just because Jose is not jailed under the law and we choose to deport him instead, that does not mean that we did not enforce the law. If we did not enforce the law, then NO ONE would ever be deported unless they had come here legally.

[torridjoe 48]

English, MF....Do YOU speak it????

 

Read Here: §2L1.2. Unlawfully Entering or Remaining in the United States

 

I can't tell if you are being serious anymore or you are just yanking my chain because I can't believe anyone in the world is this stupid. Even you.

 

I read it. Did you? You tried to pretend that leaving the country means you were convicted for being here illegally. That's not the case.

[Toro 3]

I don't think he's THAT stupid, just obstinant.

 

I am just chalking this one up to a weird day. He usually isn't like this.

[torridjoe 48]

Again, are you going to substantiate that the law is never enforced? I think that you would have a better chance of saying that the entire weight of the law is not brought onto each individual and that we take the lowest cost route of deporting the alien, putting the offense on their record for next time, and moving on. But that is just me.

 

Are you going to substantiate that it is?

[GutterBoy 2,900]

He usually isn't like this.

 

He's always been like this.

[Toro 3]

I think that he is somehow under the impression that we want to give Jose three squares and a bed in one of our jails in order for him to be characterized as being convicted of this crime. Just because Jose is not jailed under the law and we choose to deport him instead, that does not mean that we did not enforce the law. If we did not enforce the law, then NO ONE would ever be deported unless they had come here legally.

 

That is what I am thinking too. Deportation is the penalty for being convicted of being here illegally. Doesn't he understand that?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

I read it. Did you? You tried to pretend that leaving the country means you were convicted for being here illegally. That's not the case.

 

Do you honestly think that we send them back on their merry way and never convict them of entering illegally? Don't you think that we convict them which gives us the right to deport them, we put the conviction on their record, and then we drive them to the border?

[Toro 3]

He's always been like this.

 

I know he can be stubburn, but I have never seen him take a stance as idiotic as this. Maybe he needs some loving.

[torridjoe 48]

I think that he is somehow under the impression that we want to give Jose three squares and a bed in one of our jails in order for him to be characterized as being convicted of this crime. Just because Jose is not jailed under the law and we choose to deport him instead, that does not mean that we did not enforce the law. If we did not enforce the law, then NO ONE would ever be deported unless they had come here legally.

 

I don't believe the law cited refers to deportation; it refers to fines and imprisonment. If there's no fine or imprisonment (which is not the same as DHS detention), it's not being enforced.

 

Do you honestly think that we send them back on their merry way and never convict them of entering illegally? Don't you think that we convict them which gives us the right to deport them, we put the conviction on their record, and then we drive them to the border?

 

Nope. We just send them back.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Are you going to substantiate that it is?

 

Nice try. I have shown you a law that allows us to deport illegal aliens and that said law has enough influence that we actually have a border patrol to enforce said law. Why should I have to show you the statistics, when you are the person with the crazy accusation that it is never enforced. In fact, you have taken that argument to such an extent as to suggest that the illegal aliens (notice how I dismiss your term) are not even committing a crime!

[GutterBoy 2,900]

I know he can be stubburn, but I have never seen him take a stance as idiotic as this. Maybe he needs some loving.

 

I've seen him take some really, really dumb stances before. This one ranks up there. The dumbest might have been the fumble argument.

[Toro 3]

I've seen him take some really, really dumb stances before. This one ranks up there. The dumbest might have been the fumble argument.

 

What was that?

[torridjoe 48]

That is what I am thinking too. Deportation is the penalty for being convicted of being here illegally. Doesn't he understand that?

 

show me where the word "deportation" appears in the law cited:

 

"...shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

 

Nice try. I have shown you a law that allows us to deport illegal aliens and that said law has enough influence that we actually have a border patrol to enforce said law. Why should I have to show you the statistics, when you are the person with the crazy accusation that it is never enforced. In fact, you have taken that argument to such an extent as to suggest that the illegal aliens (notice how I dismiss your term) are not even committing a crime!

 

When did the border patrol become attorneys and judges?

 

Deportation is not part of the penalty for the crime cited.

[GutterBoy 2,900]

What was that?

 

I'd rather not get into it again. Send me a PM if you really want to know, or sign up for the sanctuary to read the thread.

[Strike 6,024]

So Muhammad, when you said

 

I just pointed out where I was wrong

 

were you lieing? If not, why are you now defending the same stance that led you to say you were wrong?

[torridjoe 48]

So Muhammad, when you said

 

I just pointed out where I was wrong

 

were you lieing? If not, why are you now defending the same stance that led you to say you were wrong?

 

Where am I defending the stance that no laws exist against being here illegally?

[Strike 6,024]

Where am I defending the stance that no laws exist against being here illegally?

 

Never mind. One can only go around in a circle so many times. Thanks for proving what an asshat you are, again, and for the entertainment. I'm sure we all enjoyed it, at your expense of course.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

show me where the word "deportation" appears in the law cited:

 

"...shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

When did the border patrol become attorneys and judges?

 

Deportation is not part of the penalty for the crime cited.

 

Oh, hell torrid. You are really being an ass right now.

 

Suggest you look at more than just Title 8 Section 1325 (which was cited) and perhaps go through the sections that also refer to that section.

 

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/us...01----000-.html

 

You may want to look at some sections like this:

an offense described in section 1325 (a) or 1326 of this title committed by an alien who was previously deported on the basis of a conviction for an offense described in another subparagraph of this paragraph;

 

It sure seems like it has all of the stuff that you are looking for there. We convict them and we deport them and we do it under different sections of the law, but we also have Section 1325, just in case we need some extra weight to throw at this individual.

 

One other point that I think people forgot to mention with you. Why do you think that we have chosen to not enforce the immigration laws as well as we could? I would suggest to you that we have been spending the limited resources for the enforcement of those laws on illegal aliens (there's that phrase again) who pose a danger to the community. Look it up.

[Snuff 10]

All these links that have been provided, yet torrid still remains stubborn here. Yet "links!" is the one thing that he uses when arguing any other stance. Oh the irony.

[torridjoe 48]

Never mind. I made sh!t up about what you said, and now I'm too much of a puss to admit it.

 

fixed.

[TerrySilver 0]

i usually dont open the political threads but i am sure happy i opened this one. funny stuff

 

 

this thread reminds me alot of the 49ers/chargers superbowl of a few years back, with torrid being the chargers

[Strike 6,024]

fixed.

 

LOL. the thing about quote manipulation, is that people who know what was said won't fall for it. And since everyone who has been reading this thread knows you backtracked on your original statement, then admitted you were wrong, and then went back to trying to defend an indefensible position, I'm pretty sure this won't have much effect but to make more people laugh at your lunacy.

[t.j 35]

No, you must have missed some of the posts. I'm saying that a statute on the books that is not enforced may as well not exist. Since undocumenteds are not charged with a crime, but are simply detained and/or deported, I'm comfortable in saying that simply being here illegally is not a crime.

 

Are you one of the idiots that kept saying during the 2004 NFL season that they "changed the rule" or "added a rule" on illegal contact downfield, when what they actually did was make more of an effort to enforce the existing rule?

[torridjoe 48]

Oh, hell torrid. You are really being an ass right now.

 

Suggest you look at more than just Title 8 Section 1325 (which was cited) and perhaps go through the sections that also refer to that section.

 

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/us...01----000-.html

 

You may want to look at some sections like this:

It sure seems like it has all of the stuff that you are looking for there. We convict them and we deport them and we do it under different sections of the law, but we also have Section 1325, just in case we need some extra weight to throw at this individual.

 

One other point that I think people forgot to mention with you. Why do you think that we have chosen to not enforce the immigration laws as well as we could? I would suggest to you that we have been spending the limited resources for the enforcement of those laws on illegal aliens (there's that phrase again) who pose a danger to the community. Look it up.

 

I've been through this twice with Toro now. Where does it say we convict them for being here illegally? Nowhere, right? Because the conviction is for OTHER offenses, as laid out by example in that section (ie drugrunning, smuggling, etc).

 

How can they be convicted if they're not even booked?

So you're admitting here that we don't charge people who simply come across or overstay their visas, finally. We go after those who commit some OTHER crime.

 

From the link:

 

(A) The term “conviction” means, with respect to an alien, a formal judgment of guilt of the alien entered by a court or, if adjudication of guilt has been withheld, where—

(i) a judge or jury has found the alien guilty or the alien has entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendere or has admitted sufficient facts to warrant a finding of guilt, and

(ii) the judge has ordered some form of punishment, penalty, or restraint on the alien’s liberty to be imposed.

[remote controller 143]

I didn't say they weren't here illegally. I said they weren't committing a crime.

If it's a crime, tell me this:

 

*is it a misdemeanor or a felony? All criminal offenses are one or the other, are they not?

*in which US criminal court are the offenses tried?

*how many detained border jumpers have been convicted of the specific crime of being here illegally, for the last year in which such statistics are available?

*why is the US House seeking to make it a crime?

 

[Snuff 10]

You sure don't go down gracefully. More like a big flaming ball of fire!

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

I've been through this twice with Toro now. Where does it say we convict them for being here illegally? Nowhere, right? Because the conviction is for OTHER offenses, as laid out by example in that section (ie drugrunning, smuggling, etc).

 

How can they be convicted if they're not even booked?

So you're admitting here that we don't charge people who simply come across or overstay their visas, finally. We go after those who commit some OTHER crime.

 

No, that is completely untrue. Read the link that I provided, since you are so hung up on the complete links. We convict illegal aliens for entering the country illegally and they get due process.

 

(A) The term “order of deportation” means the order of the special inquiry officer, or other such administrative officer to whom the Attorney General has delegated the responsibility for determining whether an alien is deportable, concluding that the alien is deportable or ordering deportation.

( The order described under subparagraph (A) shall become final upon the earlier of—

(i) a determination by the Board of Immigration Appeals affirming such order; or

(ii) the expiration of the period in which the alien is permitted to seek review of such order by the Board of Immigration Appeals.

(48)

(A) The term “conviction” means, with respect to an alien, a formal judgment of guilt of the alien entered by a court or, if adjudication of guilt has been withheld, where—

(i) a judge or jury has found the alien guilty or the alien has entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendere or has admitted sufficient facts to warrant a finding of guilt, and

(ii) the judge has ordered some form of punishment, penalty, or restraint on the alien’s liberty to be imposed.

( Any reference to a term of imprisonment or a sentence with respect to an offense is deemed to include the period of incarceration or confinement ordered by a court of law regardless of any suspension of the imposition or execution of that imprisonment or sentence in whole or in part.

 

Under our immigration laws, we have the right to deport individuals or assign any other punishment applicable under our laws (Section 1325 included) for other things that they have committed. The fact that we choose to enforce the cheapest law for the crime of entering illegally (deportation) does not make the crime any less of a crime.

 

Entering the country illegally is:

- illegal

- a crime

- punishment requires due process

- punishment can be a fine and jail along with deportation

- is in addition to any other crimes that the individual may have been detained for

 

You are focusing on the fact that the majority of the illegal aliens are found because of other crimes. That does not mean that we are not searching out others (Operation Vanguard, for example) under the provisions of the laws that I have referenced before.

 

ETA: As far as people never being prosecuted under Section 1325 (am I piling on here), here is some interesting info. This does not include people who are caught by Interior authorities (state and local governments) as those folks need to go through a different process.

 

http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/141/

 

What Happens After Apprehension?

 

In considering the deterrence potential of any enforcement agency, a second component that requires reflection is the question of what happens when the individual is arrested by the police officer or the alien is apprehended by the agent. If an arrest or apprehension is probable and the resulting outcome significant, the deterrent effect will be multiplied. But if capture is not certain and the resulting outcome relatively mild, the promise of deterrence is reduced.

 

For those apprehended illegally crossing the border, the government and the alien have several options that can be followed: criminal prosecution, "voluntary departure," an asylum claim, or an order of removal. Each of these paths results in significantly different consequences for the apprehended alien as discussed below.

 

Sort of to your point, less than 2% of all aliens at the border go through criminal prosecution and over 90% go through "voluntary departure". For the folks that have voluntary departure, we do track who they are and how many times they have attempted to come over the border. However,

According to accounts published in the press, as confirmed by TRAC conversations with Border Patrol offices along the southern border, there are frequently formal or informal policies requiring an illegal alien to be apprehended five to ten times before the BP will seek to have the individual criminally prosecuted for illegal entry.

 

So you say that we never prosecute and that is not true.