We were so evil at Abu Ghraib

[Spring 0]

Benefit of the doubt? This is the documented truth.

 

Truth about what? Forgive me if I am not as familiar with the actual cases of abuse.

[kpbuckeye 2]

I give the soldiers the benefit of the doubt, actually. I blame leadership, all the way up.

 

Not a good idea to rely on drobeski for much of anything.

 

Just remember, a prominent Republican Senator agrees murder and rape occurred at Abu Ghraib.

 

 

Whats funny is somehow this made it full circle to a group of old men thousands of miles away.

Bush did it, it rests with him and Rummy!!!!!! Using your logic accross the board, every action, every scandal that has ever taken place in our history is the presidents responsibility. We would be voting for new ones daily. What? some guys in Japan got stupid and raped a girl? must rest with the president huh?

it boils down to D vs R w/ everything for you. Kinda pathetic and pitiful.

[TyCobb 0]

I never pegged you as an idiot, but then you write something stupid like this.

"leftist" frenzy? Since when is John McCain a leftist, for example?

 

Since November 6, 2002. The day his ridiculous campaign finance "reform" bill with Feingold went into effect. Thanks for asking.

 

BTW - Insult duly noted.

[Voltaire 4,586]

When you eat sausages, you know better than to ask too many questions about how it's prepared and I think that's kind of my take on terrorist prisoners.

 

I don't want to know the details. I'm a lot happier that the Iraqis are running the prison now. I'm embarassed by the way the US runs these prisons but the damage to our reputation is done. Just get the Americans as far away as possible, I don't want any US fingerprints on what happens there, just let the Iraqis run it and let the International Red Cross criticize them and attempt to keep them in line.

[TyCobb 0]

I'm a lot happier that the Iraqis are running the prison now. I'm embarassed by the way the US runs these prisons but the damage to our reputation is done. Just get the Americans as far away as possible, I don't want any US fingerprints on what happens there, just let the Iraqis run it and let the International Red Cross criticize them and attempt to keep them in line.

 

Am I embarassed by the way the US ran Abu Ghraib? No.

 

Am I right there with you, happy the Iraqis are now in charge? Absolutely.

 

Interesting, though, how the media found our supposed wrongdoing there so frontpage worthy. But with the prisoners now begging for our return, coverage is scattered at best. That's sad.

[Voltaire 4,586]

Am I embarassed by the way the US ran Abu Ghraib? No.

 

Am I right there with you, happy the Iraqis are now in charge? Absolutely.

 

Interesting, though, how the media found our supposed wrongdoing there so frontpage worthy. But with the prisoners now begging for our return, coverage is scattered at best. That's sad.

 

Nobody is shocked or surprised that Arabs do this in prisons. They are shocked and surprised when the US does it. The US is better served by having it's reputation clean and by handling prisoners with respect and dignity. If you care about human rights, and I do, then you don't want your country to participate in these activities.

 

But terrorism enhanced by holy jihad is a dangerous game. We shouldn't lower our standards on prisoner treatment. The FBI has years and years of experience extracting information from uncooperative witnesses without torturing them. They could send a detachment to Iraq.

 

If we're tempted to torture, and feel compelled that it's the only way, we shouldn't play mirky games on the margins of crossing boundries- what's legal, what's humane, what's not. If FBI-esque methods are uneffective then let the Iraqis handle it by other means.

 

Nobody will criticize the Iraqis for torturing prisoners because nobody expects them to treat prisoners humanely to begin with.

[TyCobb 0]

If FBI-esque methods are uneffective then let the Iraqis handle it by other means.

 

Nobody will criticize the Iraqis for torturing prisoners because nobody expects them to treat prisoners humanely to begin with.

 

Theoretically, I agree. I'm just not exactly clear how we get any reliable information that way. But I'm all for letting the Iraqis decide the fate of their own country - a privelidge they didn't enjoy under Saddam, I might add.

[Voltaire 4,586]

Theoretically, I agree. I'm just not exactly clear how we get any reliable information that way. But I'm all for letting the Iraqis decide the fate of their own country - a privelidge they didn't enjoy under Saddam, I might add.

 

Well Saddam was effective at running the place. Maybe that's what it takes. And letting the Iraqis decide their own fate means putting the Shiites in charge since they are the ethnic majority.

 

Also, the article doesn't specify, but I have to imagine "handing over control of the prisons to Iraqis" actually means "handing over Sunni prisoners to Shiite guards".

 

I don't wish bad things on them, I'd like to see a democracy flourish there too. It's just too unrealistic.

 

It's probably going to take a protracted full out civil war then see whcih side is left standing and pick up the pieces from there. THe place'll contiunue to be focked up for a long time. Whoever 'wins' Iraq runs the place brutally, rewards their friends, uses oppression on the loser and generally -hopefully- runs the place like Saddam did. THe US can be sure to kiss the ass of the winner, help them along the way, and get in good to buy oil from them. Whoever loses will be brutalized and marginalized and commit low scale terrorism every so often but be mostly neutered. But as long as the oil flows, who focking cares?

 

Best case scenario- Saudi Arabia pumps money into the Sunnis, Iran pumps money into the Shiites and they have a big civil war. The US isn't around to referee. Meanwhile, the west develops alternative fuels, oil prices collapse and ruin the Iranian and Saudi economies, Sunnis and Shiites destroy each other and Kurds come in at the 11th hour and wipe them both out and Kurds take over the whole place.

[TyCobb 0]

Whoever 'wins' Iraq runs the place brutally, rewards their friends, uses oppression on the loser and generally -hopefully- runs the place like Saddam did.

 

Hopefully? I don't share your cynicism.

[Voltaire 4,586]

Hopefully? I don't share your cynicism.

 

OK... hopefully Paul Bremmer becomes a duel US/Iraqi citizen and assends the throne as Emperor of Iraq.

 

There's a soda pop slip and slide in every school, the streets are lined with gingerbread houses instead of bombed out buildings, gumdrops line the roads and the Tigres river tastes like milk chocolate while the Euphrates river tastes like caramel. Also, the Kurds, SUnnis, and Shiites all put aside their differences, intermarry, and the whole nation unites into one religion that ... the Sunshiturds.

 

Donald Rumsfeld can be secretary of Defense, George W. Bush as Iraqi ambassador to the UN.

[TyCobb 0]

OK... hopefully Paul Bremmer becomes a duel US/Iraqi citizen and assends the throne as Emperor of Iraq.

 

There's a soda pop slip and slide in every school, the streets are lined with gingerbread houses instead of bombed out buildings, gumdrops line the roads and the Tigres river tastes like milk chocolate while the Euphrates river tastes like caramel. Also, the Kurds, SUnnis, and Shiites all put aside their differences, intermarry, and the whole nation unites into one religion that ... the Sunshiturds.

 

Donald Rumsfeld can be secretary of Defense, George W. Bush as Iraqi ambassador to the UN.

 

Sarcasm aside, I don't think it's naive to shoot for something a bit higher than the mass graves they experienced under Saddam ... even if that doesn't make the Euphrates run over with caramel.

[parrot 789]

Theoretically, I agree. I'm just not exactly clear how we get any reliable information that way. But I'm all for letting the Iraqis decide the fate of their own country - a privelidge they didn't enjoy under Saddam, I might add.

Yeah, that's just focking swell that we took out big bad Saddam so they could sidle up with Iran, the country identified by our leaders as a state sponsor of terror and the biggest threat to our interests in the region.

 

Also, you don't get reliable information through torture either.

[gocolts 300]

Since November 6, 2002. The day his ridiculous campaign finance "reform" bill with Feingold went into effect. Thanks for asking.

 

BTW - Insult duly noted.

Eggzactly

 

You liberals in this thread who keep trashing the military for supposed "Crimes" in Abu Ghraib relize that many people in San Franfreako call that a "Lifestlye" that should be tolerated, don't you????

[paulinstl 295]

We should never stoop to the levels of the bad guys, period! We are a better people than whom we are fighting. It's hard to believe that so many don't get disturbed when we lower our standards to the use of torture.

[TyCobb 0]

We should never stoop to the levels of the bad guys, period! We are a better people than whom we are fighting. It's hard to believe that so many don't get disturbed when we lower our standards to the use of torture.

 

We see pictures of terrorists getting taunted and humiliated, and there's a little part of all of us that delights in it because of what happened on 9/11.

 

We also see video of our own citizens getting beheaded on broadcast TV, and we wonder why there's not more outrage from the left.

[Franknbeans 46]

Eggzactly

 

You liberals in this thread who keep trashing the military for supposed "Crimes" in Abu Ghraib relize that many people in San Franfreako call that a "Lifestlye" that should be tolerated, don't you????

 

again, with the gay stuff

 

 

We see pictures of terrorists getting taunted and humiliated, and there's a little part of all of us that delights in it because of what happened on 9/11.

 

Speak for yourself

[paulinstl 295]

We see pictures of terrorists getting taunted and humiliated, and there's a little part of all of us that delights in it because of what happened on 9/11.

 

We also see video of our own citizens getting beheaded on broadcast TV, and we wonder why there's not more outrage from the left.

 

 

And most people get sickened by the people who are "delighted" by others being tortured and by beheaded, no matter whom they are.

[kpbuckeye 2]

And most people get sickened by the people who are "delighted" by others being tortured and by beheaded, no matter whom they are.

 

geeze torrid, trying to twist his words? I believe he said humiliated, not beheaded.

[parrot 789]

You liberals in this thread who keep trashing the military for supposed "Crimes" in Abu Ghraib

"supposed"Crimes""? This is an interesting spin on the infamous torridjoe crime quote.

 

There is nothing "supposed" about the crimes that went on in Abu Ghraib, multiple soldiers were tried, convicted, and sentenced.

[wiffleball 4,679]

I think far worse crimes likely occured outside of Abu Giraffe. I for one, do NOT view 'embarassment' as torture. Nor do I view having to be in uncomfortable positions for extended periods of time torture. If that were the case, I spent my entire Catholic School life in 'torture'. I think the world overreacted to the pictures of nekkid twister and underreacted in other far more heinous cases.

[Snuff 10]

I think far worse crimes likely occured outside of Abu Giraffe. I for one, do NOT view 'embarassment' as torture. Nor do I view having to be in uncomfortable positions for extended periods of time torture. If that were the case, I spent my entire Catholic School life in 'torture'. I think the world overreacted to the pictures of nekkid twister and underreacted in other far more heinous cases.

 

You better hope torrid doesn't see this.

[wiffleball 4,679]

You better hope torrid doesn't see this.

 

 

Heck, I'm still waiting on Torrid to show me the Abu Giraffe Family Day Care and Rape/Murder viewing room!

[parrot 789]

I think far worse crimes likely occured outside of Abu Giraffe. I for one, do NOT view 'embarassment' as torture. Nor do I view having to be in uncomfortable positions for extended periods of time torture. If that were the case, I spent my entire Catholic School life in 'torture'. I think the world overreacted to the pictures of nekkid twister and underreacted in other far more heinous cases.

How about sever beatings, do they qualify? Charles Graner admitted in his trial to beating detainess nearly to death inside Abu Ghraib.

 

Were all the Abu Ghraib photos ever released? I know Lindsay Graham talked about scenes of rape and murder.

[wiffleball 4,679]

How about sever beatings, do they qualify? Charles Graner admitted in his trial to beating detainess nearly to death inside Abu Ghraib.

 

Yep. Sever beatings count as torture. - and crime.

[kpbuckeye 2]

How about sever beatings, do they qualify? Charles Graner admitted in his trial to beating detainess nearly to death inside Abu Ghraib.

 

Were all the Abu Ghraib photos ever released? I know Lindsay Graham talked about scenes of rape and murder.

 

you should teach us all a lesson by packing your bags and moving. Since all you ever do here is cry about how bad things are, show us you want and deserve better. move to france or wherethefockever and you can post updates here on how great it is there.

good luck

[parrot 789]

you should teach us all a lesson by packing your bags and moving. Since all you ever do here is cry about how bad things are, show us you want and deserve better. move to france or wherethefockever and you can post updates here on how great it is there.

good luck

Oh no, the fft attack poodle is nipping at my ankles.

 

You have any thoughts on Abu Ghraib? Do you ever have any thoughts on anything, you focking diIdo?

[kpbuckeye 2]

Oh no, the fft attack poodle is nipping at my ankles.

 

You have any thoughts on Abu Ghraib? Do you ever have any thoughts on anything, you focking diIdo?

 

 

will you be posting your new address?

[gocolts 300]

"supposed"Crimes""? This is an interesting spin on the infamous torridjoe crime quote.

 

There is nothing "supposed" about the crimes that went on in Abu Ghraib, multiple soldiers were tried, convicted, and sentenced.

 

I know they have, and that is a tragedy. They should all be pardoned by Bush.

 

What some of you call "Torture," many call a lifestyle that we are supposed to accecpt.

[MDC 5,963]

Speaking of torture, check out this Matt Lauer interview of Bush:

 

Bush starts pointing his finger at Lauer and getting all indignant when asked simple questions about torture. He won't confirm the interrogation techniques we're using, he won't confirm even that he knows what techniques we're using, and he starts poking his finger and getting PO'd that Lauer won't give him a free pass. Remember when Republicans used to say that Democrats want a "nanny" government? Now you've got a President who routinely breaks the law and acts like a petulent monarch when people have the nerve to ask questions, and they defend him.

[TyCobb 0]

And most people get sickened by the people who are "delighted" by others being tortured and by beheaded, no matter whom they are.

 

Never said I delighted in people being tortured. So don't twist my words, sport.

 

I said there is a "little part in all of us which delights" in terrorists being humiliated. And I think I'm correct in that statement.

[MDC 5,963]

Never said I delighted in people being tortured. So don't twist my words, sport.

 

I said there is a "little part in all of us which delights" in terrorists being humiliated. And I think I'm correct in that statement.

 

Speak for yourself. There's a part in my that delights in terrorists being killed. There is no part of me that delights in watching terrorists be humiliated. Actually it makes me kind of sad, because all it does is demonstrate the sadism of the torturers. I don't like to think those kind of people find their way into our military.

[TyCobb 0]

Speak for yourself. There's a part in my that delights in terrorists being killed. There is no part of me that delights in watching terrorists be humiliated. Actually it makes me kind of sad, because all it does is demonstrate the sadism of the torturers. I don't like to think those kind of people find their way into our military.

 

Okay to kill em. Just don't laugh at em. Gotcha.

[MDC 5,963]

Okay to kill em. Just don't laugh at em. Gotcha.

 

Well, yeah. We supposedly kill them in self defense. The only reason you humiliate a defenseless man is out of sadism.

[Strike 4,092]

Speak for yourself. There's a part in my that delights in terrorists being killed. There is no part of me that delights in watching terrorists be humiliated. Actually it makes me kind of sad, because all it does is demonstrate the sadism of the torturers. I don't like to think those kind of people find their way into our military.

 

LOL. Not that there isn't something valid about your point, but what kind of people do you think are going to join the military? Torrid would never even consider it but if he did I'm sure he'd never humiliate another human being

[MDC 5,963]

LOL. Not that there isn't something valid about your point, but what kind of people do you think are going to join the military? Torrid would never even consider it but if he did I'm sure he'd never humiliate another human being

 

I'd hope the people who join the military do so out of a sense of patriotism and duty to their country - not as an outlet for their sadistic tendencies. I also wouldn't be happy to learn that the military is full of white supremicists. Maybe I'm being naive but it's true. There's a difference IMO between shooting a man on the battlefield and torturing him for pleasure. I'd like to think better of all our men and women in uniform.

[Strike 4,092]

I'd hope the people who join the military do so out of a sense of patriotism and duty to their country - not as an outlet for their sadistic tendencies. I also wouldn't be happy to learn that the military is full of white supremicists. Maybe I'm being naive but it's true. There's a difference IMO between shooting a man on the battlefield and torturing him for pleasure. I'd like to think better of all our men and women in uniform.

 

Patriotism and duty are not mutually exclusive from sadistic tendencies. Also, I'm not suggesting that all who join the military have those tendencies. Remember, these are isolated incidents that become international scandals. What percentage of our military do you really think are prone to this type of action? And do you really think it's possible to create a militia that is 100% people who would never ever do something like that? Again, not condoning it but I realize it's an unfortunate byproduct of war and doubt we'll ever eradicate that type of behavior 100%. I bet it's a lot better than WWII or Vietnam though. So you prosecute when you can prove it but live with the reality.

[TyCobb 0]

All these rebuttals only further magnify my original point. The prisoners are BEGGING US TO RETURN!

 

Do you naysayers not see an irony in that?

[MDC 5,963]

Patriotism and duty are not mutually exclusive from sadistic tendencies. Also, I'm not suggesting that all who join the military have those tendencies. Remember, these are isolated incidents that become international scandals. What percentage of our military do you really think are prone to this type of action? And do you really think it's possible to create a militia that is 100% people who would never ever do something like that? Again, not condoning it but I realize it's an unfortunate byproduct of war and doubt we'll ever eradicate that type of behavior 100%. I bet it's a lot better than WWII or Vietnam though. So you prosecute when you can prove it but live with the reality.

 

I never said it was a high percentage of our troops. And you can't ever eliminate that kind of thing, but I do think having no official policy on the treatment of prisoners and condoning forms of torture is going to increase the chances that it happens.

[Strike 4,092]

I never said it was a high percentage of our troops. And you can't ever eliminate that kind of thing, but I do think having no official policy on the treatment of prisoners and condoning forms of torture is going to increase the chances that it happens.

 

Last time I checked people were prosecuted for their actions at Abu Ghraib. I missed the memo where we condoned it. Thanks for informing me

[MDC 5,963]

Last time I checked people were prosecuted for their actions at Abu Ghraib. I missed the memo where we condoned it. Thanks for informing me

 

When did I ever say their actions were condoned? I said the lack of a clear policy on the treatment of prisoners probably contributes to the kind of thing you see at Abu Ghraib. Your smarmy sarcasm makes you sound like a defensive jerk.