How does organized religion/faith benefit the world? Can we get rid of it? Should we?

[BMoney 0]

would this mean no Notre Dame football on tv every freeking weekend? hmmmm... sounds ok so far..go on

[GobbleDog 1,010]

Atheists are generally more intelligent than religious folks.

[Big Blue 06 196]

How many wars have been faught in the name of religion? How many in the name of atheisim?

 

Then is it your contention that people would stop going to war if religion was removed from the world? People will always have a reason to fight. It may be a racial issue, it may be that we want the land that someone else has, it may be that we want the oil that another country possesses. Whatever the reason, I don't believe that removing religion will eradicate the threat of war. I'm not entirely convinced that it would even cause a move in that direction.

[dbergan 0]

Ask yourself why religion was started, and there you'll find the reasons why we have it and still need it.

 

Read The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis or (better yet) Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton to see the intellectual reasons why these two brilliant atheists converted to Christianity.

 

There is no short answer to the question: How does organized religion/faith benefit the world? Chesterton wrote his whole book to answer it. Of which here is a salient part:

 

I take in order the next instance offered: the idea that Christianity belongs to the dark ages. Here I did not satisfy myself with reading modern generalisations; I read a little history. And in history I found that Christianity, so far from belonging to the dark ages, was the one path across the dark ages that was not dark. It was a shining bridge connecting two shining civilisations. If any one says that the faith arose in ignorance and savagery the answer is simple: it didn't. It arose in the Mediterranean civilisation in the full summer of the Roman Empire. The world was swarming with sceptics, and pantheism was as plain as the sun, when Constantine nailed the cross to the mast. It is perfectly true that afterwards the ship sank; but it is far more extraordinary that the ship came up again: repainted and glittering, with the cross still at the top. This is the amazing thing the religion did: it turned a sunken ship into a submarine. The ark lived under the load of waters; after being buried under the débris of dynasties and clans, we arose and remembered Rome. If our faith had been a mere fad of the fading empire, fad would have followed fad in the twilight, and if the civilisation ever re-emerged (and many such have never re-emerged) it would have been under some new barbaric flag. But the Christian Church was the last life of the old society and was also the first life of the new. She took the people who were forgetting how to make an arch and she taught them to invent the Gothic arch. In a word, the most absurd thing that could be said of the Church is the thing we have all heard said of it. How can we say that the Church wishes to bring us back into the Dark Ages? The Church was the only thing that ever brought us out of them.

 

Atheists are generally more intelligent than religious folks.

 

Con-artists are generally more intelligent than consumers... that doesn't make them right.

[Toro 3]

I find it funny that everyone who is not religious tends to blame the problems with society on organized religion where religious people tend to blame the atheists.

 

Anywho, that being said. I think people are naturally bad and have to work at being nice and good. Why? Being bad is a lot easier.

 

Work Hard for your things is harder then stealing. Being pleasant to people who are in your way and slowing you down is harder than telling them to hurry the fock up. Being good is hard work because it is our natural instinct to look out for #1 and that's it.

 

If I believed that there were no repercussions in the afterlife, that when we died, we just ended up dust and that was that - I would live my life differently.

[edjr 6,898]

If I believed that there were no repercussions in the afterlife, that when we died, we just ended up dust and that was that - I would live my life differently.

 

[Strike 6,023]

Then is it your contention that people would stop going to war if religion was removed from the world? People will always have a reason to fight. It may be a racial issue, it may be that we want the land that someone else has, it may be that we want the oil that another country possesses. Whatever the reason, I don't believe that removing religion will eradicate the threat of war. I'm not entirely convinced that it would even cause a move in that direction.

 

Of course there would still be conflicts even if religion wasn't around. However, there probably wouldn't be conflicts DUE to religion. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that the quantity of conflicts would certainly go down.

 

I find it funny that everyone who is not religious tends to blame the problems with society on organized religion where religious people tend to blame the atheists.

 

Anywho, that being said. I think people are naturally bad and have to work at being nice and good. Why? Being bad is a lot easier.

 

Work Hard for your things is harder then stealing. Being pleasant to people who are in your way and slowing you down is harder than telling them to hurry the fock up. Being good is hard work because it is our natural instinct to look out for #1 and that's it.

 

If I believed that there were no repercussions in the afterlife, that when we died, we just ended up dust and that was that - I would live my life differently.

 

It's sad that you need someone to tell you how to be a good person, and apparently you aren't listening considering how much of a douche you are. I suppose that what Ed is laughing about.

[Brad GLuckman 519]

But what I do have a problem with is the fact that a large percentage of religous people are extremely hypocritical.

 

I don't know exactly where you are going with this...but I will add Christians preach what they believe is right. It also preaches that nobody is perfect, and that mistakes and sins are bound to occur in everyone's life. Just because a religion preaches a certain way to live your life...doesn't mean that anyone who makes mistakes along the road are hypocrites. Again, not sure if that's what you meant, just kind of wanted to say that.

 

Just like religious people. I get bashed for being an athiest because my beliefs are diffent from someone elses. Pesonally I don't care what anyone believes as long as it doesn't effect me.

 

Intollerance goes for both groups.

 

I agree with you 100% man. I have family who will talk about atheists as if they're going to hell and they're bad people. I actually have gotten into arguments when I pointed out that an atheist we know lives more of a christian life than many of the christians we know...minus the whole church and god part, but you get the idea.

I think a major problem is that many Christians can't comprehend that someone who doesn't have god in their life can still be a good person.

[KSB2424 3,173]

I've got dbergan ranked first on my cheatsheet.

[edjr 6,898]

If I believed that there were no repercussions in the afterlife, that when we died, we just ended up dust and that was that - I would live my life differently.

 

How can you claim to be smart when you say something like this?

 

I actually feel bad for you now. I'm going to start being nice to you.

[schaef2k 0]

Then is it your contention that people would stop going to war if religion was removed from the world? People will always have a reason to fight. It may be a racial issue, it may be that we want the land that someone else has, it may be that we want the oil that another country possesses. Whatever the reason, I don't believe that removing religion will eradicate the threat of war. I'm not entirely convinced that it would even cause a move in that direction.

 

Not at all. But just think if there were no Islamic extremists comitting horible crimes in the name of Islam. What about the Spanish Inquisition. What about the Jews and the Muslims.

 

It would get rid of at least one reason that people go to war.

[Electric Mayhem 35]

Also I inferred that you believe you are mentally superior because you have figured out that there is no God. I could be wrong I suppose.

 

That's an interesting statement. How do you feel toward Mormons, Scientologists, Native American Shamen etc? I don't think 'superior' is the word. Kind of like if you had a friend that was having trouble reading because he was holding his book upside down. I don't feel 'superior' because I know how to read, i just want to say "no, no... hold the book like THIS". Only it's fustrating because there are so many people that think they should be holding the book that way and are convinced they are right, and you honestly think it would be so much easier if they flipped their book around.

[dbergan 0]

The Torah is supposedly the words of God as directly spoken to Moses. The Bible tells of how it rained for 40 days and nights, and a guy built a big boat that somehow held 2 of every species on the planet and kept them alive until the rain went away. And somehow the meat eating animals lived without eating anything (since they couldn't wipe out a species by eating the last two of anything) and managed to re-populate the Earth.

 

Food for meat eaters: Gen 7:2 - "Take along seven pairs of each animal that I have approved for eating and for sacrifice, and take one pair of each of the others."

 

I'm a Christian and do not believe in a world-wide flood. (How would the kangaroos get back to Australia?) I consider all of Genesis pre-Abraham (and the Book of Job) to be mythological... meaning that it isn't probably historically true, but the concept is accurate. I believe Man disobeyed God, even though I don't believe in a talking snake and magical apple.

 

I also think that everything in the Book of Revelations past the 3rd chapter ought to be cut out of the Bible.

 

But read Matthew chapter 6, and tell me if you still think that all of religion is ridiculous. I have never read anything more profound in all human literature.

[Doyle Redland 0]

Religion is poison, the opiate of the masses.....

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO GO DISSING ON OPIATES?

[schaef2k 0]

I agree with you 100% man. I have family who will talk about atheists as if they're going to hell and they're bad people. I actually have gotten into arguments when I pointed out that an atheist we know lives more of a christian life than many of the christians we know...minus the whole church and god part, but you get the idea.

I think a major problem is that many Christians can't comprehend that someone who doesn't have god in their life can still be a good person.

 

Good post, I agree completely. Just like there are athiest who look down on people because their beliefs are silly to them.

[Electric Mayhem 35]

But read Matthew chapter 6, and tell me if you still think that all of religion is ridiculous. I have never read anything more profound in all human literature.

 

can you link it/paste it?

 

ETA: I don't think all of religion is ridiculous. I think the morals and teachings of many religions are a great starting point and guide on how to do what's considered 'right' by many civilized cultures. But to act that way in the name of God or fear of God? That is what I have disdain for. The only ridiculous part I see is taking some of the stories as verbatim fact (that goes for many religions), and some of the ludicrous con-'religions' like Mormonism and Scientology.

[Strike 6,023]

can you link it/paste it?

 

I'm pretty sure, in today's day and age, that you have to pay God some royalties before you can post his words.

[Toro 3]

It's sad that you need someone to tell you how to be a good person, and apparently you aren't listening considering how much of a douche you are. I suppose that what Ed is laughing about.

 

I don't need someone to tell me to be a good person but I will say that my belief in a higher power has made some of my choices in life a lot easier.

 

Glad to see that atheists are such great people that they run around message boards calling people douches for discussing their religion. You are a class act, Strike.

[Strike 6,023]

I don't need someone to tell me to be a good person but I will say that my belief in a higher power has made some of my choices in life a lot easier.

 

Glad to see that atheists are such great people that they run around message boards calling people douches for discussing their religion. You are a class act, Strike.

 

You being a douche has nothing to do with your supposed religious beliefs, or your discussion of your supposed religion. And I'm not an atheist. Ed's right. I feel sad for you. HTH.

[Toro 3]

How can you claim to be smart when you say something like this?

 

So tell me this.

 

Do you consider sex with a 14 year old girl to be bad if you are 30?

[GobbleDog 1,010]

Con-artists are generally more intelligent than consumers... that doesn't make them right.

 

Interesting that you chose the con-artist analogy during a religious debate.

[Toro 3]

You being a douche has nothing to do with your supposed religious beliefs, or your discussion of your supposed religion. HTH.

 

Once again, you show us all that you stand above us all with your actions. Bravo, Strike. Way to be a pillar of morality around here.

[dbergan 0]

can you link it/paste it?

 

“Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

“And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

“When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

“Pray then in this way:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name.

Your kingdom come.

Your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

And do not bring us to the time of trial,

but rescue us from the evil one.

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

“And whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces so as to show others that they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

 

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

 

“No one can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

 

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of Godl and hismrighteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

“So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

 

New Revised Standard Version

 

 

 

ETA: I don't think all of religion is ridiculous. I think the morals and teachings of many religions are a great starting point and guide on how to do what's considered 'right' by many civilized cultures. But to act that way in the name of God or fear of God? That is what I have disdain for. The only ridiculous part I see is taking some of the stories as verbatim fact (that goes for many religions), and some of the ludicrous con-'religions' like Mormonism and Scientology.

 

Then we're in agreement. Come to my church with me on Sunday.

 

Interesting that you chose the con-artist analogy during a religious debate.

 

That was the intent... an atheist con-artist could trick an innocent faithful one out of her belief.

[Strike 6,023]

Once again, you show us all that you stand above us all with your actions. Bravo, Strike. Way to be a pillar of morality around here.

 

I simply tell it like it is. If you don't want to be called a douche don't act like one. HTH.

[wiffleball 4,797]

Religion in most forms is at least innocuous. - No real harm done.

 

Extremism is what I think you prolly have in mind. Religous Extremism as we're seeing today is where great harm can be done. Because, unlike other wars, when you're talking about basing your actions on faith and sincerely believe that your warring is God's will, there's no room for compromise. Wars have been fought for many reasons: Land/Territory, wealth, power - all of those leave room for compromise. What we're seeing today, this view of a Holy War wherein all non Muslims are to convert or be killed - THAT leaves no room for compromise.

[Toro 3]

I simply tell it like it is. If you don't want to be called a douche don't act like one. HTH.

 

Cause your opinion means so much.

 

I am sure everyone here is very happy that you can grace us with your opinions.

 

Now, back to the subject.

 

My contention is that the morals of society are largely based in religion. These morals are represented by not only society's norms but also through the laws passed. While some of these morals and values can be construed as common sense in this day and age, the basis for most systems of law is religion.

 

I believe that elimination of religion would take away that baseline of right and wrong and would slowly tear away at the moral fabric.

[schaef2k 0]

I believe that elimination of religion would take away that baseline of right and wrong and would slowly tear away at the moral fabric.

 

I disagree. How do you explain an atheist that lives a moral life? Or do you believe that belief in god or fear of punishment are the only things keep people from killing their neighbor and eating them?

[Toro 3]

I disagree. How do you explain an atheist that lives a moral life? Or do you believe that belief in god or fear of punishment are the only things keep people from killing their neighbor and eating them?

 

I believe that an atheist lives according to the values and norms of society, not morals. Most people learn right and wrong the same way: the repurcussions of their actions.

 

For example, Strike was just calling me a doosh. Now, in this venue, his actions would be considered the norm. Accepted by most everyone and he really has no repurcussions from it. Now, he knows, just as we all know, that if you get into an argument with another man and start calling him a dooshbag, you will end up getting into some sort of physical altercation, which is society's views today, is not acceptable. There would be repercussions in the form of getting his ass beat and the possibility of going to jail.

 

So here is the question: Is it right or wrong to call anyone a doosh? Most organized religions would say absolutely not. No matter what that man did, calling someone a doosh is wrong and you should not do it. But in society's views, calling me a doosh under the right circumstances would be considered normal, if anything, it would be encouraged.

 

I hope this example isn't too confusing but I am trying to illustrate a point: Society's morals and norms, if they are not rooted in what could be considered by a large majority of the people to be absolutes, will bend in a way that will bring more of what could be considered socially unacceptable behavior, or even downright evil, into the norm.

 

There is no absolute truth in someone's personal beliefs of right and wrong. It's all opinion. Without some sort of independent source (whether it be devine or not), the subjectivity could lead to moral decay.

[PackerAttacker 0]

The thing I have noticed most often in this thread is atheists saying that the world would be so perfect without religion. That atheists would have no reason to misbehave and look inward to be a good person etc etc. That fine to say for people like us who are educated and have morals instilled in us. But do you honestly think Joe Schmo will think twice before doing something? I know you and I would.... but Joe Schmo??? Maybe not. He sees a hot 14 year old girl, why cant he just have her? No problems with that right? He is mad at someone, why not kill him? The answer to these questions is obvious to me and you, but I dont think it is to everyone (whether they are atheist or religious). Im not buying that eliminating religion is going to eliminate any problems. Im not saying religion is the answer either... im just saying atheism is by no means any better.

 

And the other thing that is bothering me is the use of the term "fear of God". I think most religious types would tell you they have a "love of God". Not a fear. And thats not the only reason they do good.

[schaef2k 0]

I believe that an atheist lives according to the values and norms of society, not morals.

 

So athiest have no morals? Are the values and norms of society not morals? Are morals only reserved for people who believe in god? What if they believe in a different god and have a different set of morals?

 

What is the difference between morals and values?

 

Society's morals and norms, if they are not rooted in what could be considered by a large majority of the people to be absolutes, will bend in a way that will bring more of what could be considered socially unacceptable behavior, or even downright evil, into the norm.

 

Evil exists within religion as well as outside. I think you have a jaded view athiests and non-believers. It looks like your saying "If someone doesn't believe the way I do then they can't be equally as moral as me or share the same values".

 

If that's what you're saying then it sound like intolerence. Because someone doesn't believe in the same god as you or any god for that matter doesn't exclude them from having the same moral as you. Because values and moral can be different doesn't make them any better or worse than yours either.

[Toro 3]

So athiest have no morals? Are the values and norms of society not morals? Are morals only reserved for people who believe in god? What if they believe in a different god and have a different set of morals?

 

What is the difference between morals and values?

Evil exists within religion as well as outside. I think you have a jaded view athiests and non-believers. It looks like your saying "If someone doesn't believe the way I do then they can't be equally as moral as me or share the same values".

 

If that's what you're saying then it sound like intolerence. Because someone doesn't believe in the same god as you or any god for that matter doesn't exclude them from having the same moral as you. Because values and moral can be different doesn't make them any better or worse than yours either.

 

You are getting defensive. I am not judging one's morality as being better than the others. They just have different sources of truth.

 

Let me go a little slower.

 

I hate to use the Bible as a reference because people can get off topic so easily, but please bear with me and I am not speaking from a person that believes anything in particular, just observations.

 

Let's take stealing. Is stealing right or wrong? Why is it right or wrong?

[dolfan06 1]

Have all of these issues been resolved yet?

[Electric Mayhem 35]

The thing I have noticed most often in this thread is atheists saying that the world would be so perfect without religion. That atheists would have no reason to misbehave and look inward to be a good person etc etc. That fine to say for people like us who are educated and have morals instilled in us. But do you honestly think Joe Schmo will think twice before doing something? I know you and I would.... but Joe Schmo??? Maybe not. He sees a hot 14 year old girl, why cant he just have her? No problems with that right? He is mad at someone, why not kill him? The answer to these questions is obvious to me and you, but I dont think it is to everyone (whether they are atheist or religious). Im not buying that eliminating religion is going to eliminate any problems. Im not saying religion is the answer either... im just saying atheism is by no means any better.

 

And the other thing that is bothering me is the use of the term "fear of God". I think most religious types would tell you they have a "love of God". Not a fear. And thats not the only reason they do good.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that Joe Schmo doesn't rape and kill because he fears god, and then you say that religious people are all about love and there is no fear.

 

And I really don't think it's religion that keeps Joe Schmo for beig a d1ck. I think it's the fear of the police/jail etc. I never said we can do away with the laws of the countries.

 

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't (and don't) need religion to find the good in you if you want to be good. And you shouldn't ony be a good person if you are after tangible rewards like an afterlife with a Supreme Being. We should use the religious texts as a starting point to morality, not the end-all-be-all.

[Rybo5 0]

Let's take stealing. Is stealing right or wrong? Why is it right or wrong?

 

I think stuff like that depends on your point of view. Personally, I think in most cases stealing is wrong. Why do I think that?

 

1. It's already been deemed as wrong by our society, and laws have been created accordingly.

 

2. I would feel kind of guilty taking someone elses's stuff that they either paid for or earned.

 

3. Even in a society without laws, it would be kind of stupid to steal continuously, because eventually you would piss off the wrong person and end up limbless or dead.

 

there may be several more...

 

That being said, when it comes to an opinion, someone may not always have an answer as to why they feel a certain way. If I said I thought sunsets looked cool, and you asked me why I thought that, I wouldn't be able to answer that.

[PackerAttacker 0]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that Joe Schmo doesn't rape and kill because he fears god, and then you say that religious people are all about love and there is no fear.

 

And I really don't think it's religion that keeps Joe Schmo for beig a d1ck. I think it's the fear of the police/jail etc. I never said we can do away with the laws of the countries.

 

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't (and don't) need religion to find the good in you if you want to be good. And you shouldn't ony be a good person if you are after tangible rewards like an afterlife with a Supreme Being. We should use the religious texts as a starting point to morality, not the end-all-be-all.

 

Ahh... you are putting words in mouth. Reread my post. I never say Joe Schmo doesnt kill because he fears God. My point was just that removing religion would not change this urge at all. There are bad people that will have bad morals with or without religion. All I was trying to prove was that removing religion does not make society better off

[schaef2k 0]

You are getting defensive. I am not judging one's morality as being better than the others. They just have different sources of truth.

 

Let me go a little slower.

 

I hate to use the Bible as a reference because people can get off topic so easily, but please bear with me and I am not speaking from a person that believes anything in particular, just observations.

 

Let's take stealing. Is stealing right or wrong? Why is it right or wrong?

 

Defensive, not at all. I actually wanted answers to those questions that's why I asked.

 

You get all pissy about someone calling you a douch earlier and then you come back at me with "let me go a little slower". That is very condescending.

 

I would really like your opinions on the questions that I asked earlier. Maybe if you'd answer those I'll give you my opinion on why sealing is right or wrong. Thats how a discussion works (also condescending).

 

While we are on the subject, what about treat others as you would like to be treated? Did that one escape you?

[Electric Mayhem 35]

Ahh... you are putting words in mouth. Reread my post. I never say Joe Schmo doesnt kill because he fears God. My point was just that removing religion would not change this urge at all. There are bad people that will have bad morals with or without religion. All I was trying to prove was that removing religion does not make society better off

 

I agree that those that would do 'wrong' things will do them regardless of the presence of religion. However those that do good will also do good without religion, and not only that, but without the other religious albatrosses around our necks we can better ourselves as a species.

 

- stem cell research

- birth control

- medicine

- education

- equality

 

When you look at the religious rules that govern different parts of the world and the atrocities they cause, I don't see how removing them could NOT be beneficial. As an example, AIDS is running rampant in South Africa, where they have converted the locals to Christianity and banned all birth control. Brilliant.

[Toro 3]

"let me go a little slower". That is very condescending.

 

I was saying I should go slower for myself to make sure I was expressing my point of view correctly.

 

While we are on the subject, what about treat others as you would like to be treated? Did that one escape you?

 

The golden rule is subjective. What is your point?

 

So athiest have no morals?

 

I did not say that. I said atheists morals and values are based on a combination of their own opinion and societal norms.

 

Are the values and norms of society not morals?

 

Yes and no. Morals can be based on societal norms but could also be personal.

 

Are morals only reserved for people who believe in god? What if they believe in a different god and have a different set of morals?

 

I did not say this. People based their morals on different things. Religious people *supposedly* base theirs on absolute truths from an independent source. Atheists don't base their morals in anything in particular. I am not saying that the two different people might not reach the same conclusions, such as rape being wrong, but the way they went about their decision and their justification for these morals is different.

 

What is the difference between morals and values?

 

None really, I was just using them both to encompass the entire spectrum of the personal decision making process.

[edjr 6,898]

The thing I have noticed most often in this thread is atheists saying that the world would be so perfect without religion. That atheists would have no reason to misbehave and look inward to be a good person etc etc. That fine to say for people like us who are educated and have morals instilled in us. But do you honestly think Joe Schmo will think twice before doing something? I know you and I would.... but Joe Schmo??? Maybe not. He sees a hot 14 year old girl, why cant he just have her? No problems with that right? He is mad at someone, why not kill him? The answer to these questions is obvious to me and you, but I dont think it is to everyone (whether they are atheist or religious). Im not buying that eliminating religion is going to eliminate any problems. Im not saying religion is the answer either... im just saying atheism is by no means any better.

 

And the other thing that is bothering me is the use of the term "fear of God". I think most religious types would tell you they have a "love of God". Not a fear. And thats not the only reason they do good.

 

 

Religion sure kept all them Priests from diddling those 14 year old boys. great point by you.

[Groundhog 24]

The only way to get rid of extremist religious nuts is as follows:

 

Using super-advanced hologram technology, create the appearance of the deity (Muhammad, Jesus, Yahweh, whatever, take your pick) and invite the true believers to ask questions of them. Standing behind the curtain would be religious moderates who are well-schooled in all the verses and whatnot. You'd need at least four of these guys - one who can speak Arabic, Farsi, Hebrew, and English. AND EVERY FOCKING TIME THAT ONE OF THESE NUTJOBS ASKS ABOUT EXACTING VENGEANCE ON NON-BELIEVERS, THE DEITY SHOULD TELL HIM THAT HE HAS COMPLETELY MISINTERPETED HIS WORDS, THAT HE DOESN'T ADVOCATE VIOLENCE AND TO STOP SHOOTING.

 

Oh, and the winner of Jerusalem gets decided by a rock-paper-scissors tourney.

 

You're welcome.