Why should I become a Democrat?

[BudBro 161]

please don't take this wrongly, it is pure in it's nature to help me understand how and why you feel politically the way you do. it's fun for me to get involved in the political banter threads, but it would be more fun if i knew what drives the other side. i don't want rush or mike reagan to tell me about it, i'd really like to hear from all of you...mdc, wiffleball, edjr, frank m, uh-huh, all of you. whether it be the region of the country you reside, your age, the way your family voted, your race, or a circumstance that affected your choice, it's all important. things like "bush is a liar" isn't a reason you vote democrat, cause clinton was a liar too. i would like to know the fundamentals of the choice.

 

if my politics were for sale, how would you sell it to me to move to the left?

 

b

[Strike 4,604]

Why don't you just vote for the best candidate? Why should the party matter?

[BudBro 161]

because, generally the candidate is a product of the party.

[wiffleball 4,746]

please don't take this wrongly, it is pure in it's nature to help me understand how and why you feel politically the way you do. it's fun for me to get involved in the political banter threads, but it would be more fun if i knew what drives the other side. i don't want rush or mike reagan to tell me about it, i'd really like to hear from all of you...mdc, wiffleball, edjr, frank m, uh-huh, all of you. whether it be the region of the country you reside, your age, the way your family voted, your race, or a circumstance that affected your choice, it's all important. things like "bush is a liar" isn't a reason you vote democrat, cause clinton was a liar too. i would like to know the fundamentals of the choice.

 

if my politics were for sale, how would you sell it to me to move to the left?

 

b

 

Pretty simple. I'm a Registered Republican. I voted for all the things that GOVERNOR Bush said while he was campainging: Small, inobtrusive gummint, didn't believe in "nation building", responsible spending, etc. Hell, I even supported him on the war.

 

Then, he went against everthing he campaigned for - and his justifications for the war turned out to be BS - and he bullied, denied and weasel worded his way around it for far too long. And I'm not some half-wit automotan that just blindly follows the party lead, recites Faux talking points, and refuses to think critically if it hurts "my guy".

 

Odds are pretty damn good I'll vote for McCain or Guiliani. I damn sure won't vote for Hillary. It's all about the candidates for me. - Not the party. Too early to tell who'll be the candidate for either side. But i'll tell you right now - if it's Hillary, I'm voting GOP.

[Strike 4,604]

because, generally the candidate is a product of the party.

 

Sad that you feel that way. And, of course, there are more than two parties to choose from

[itsbigmoni 1]

Voting for the better candidate would be great if that candidate stuck by his ideals and promised and didn't go with the party once he/she is elected. If overall you like the democratic agenda, but you like a republican candidate, that kinda contradicts itself. How are you going to push the democratic agenda if you're helping republicans get the majority power.

 

The reason i'm a "democrat" is because i'm a person who believes in having grass roots programs. Republicans are too fiscally conservative when it comes to social programs IMO. This doesn't mean i think the demo's are doing a good job with social programs, but at least they believe in having them. I'm not talking about things like welfare because that should be cut with only unemployment availabe for a limited amount of time. I like things FDR did during the depression. If a person can't get a decent job, then create a job for him/her. Have them do things like cleaning roads, taking care of parks, planting trees in the city, anything like that. In the long run i think those kinds of things would be beneficial.

 

I'm not a tree-hugger but i don't think its unreasonable to try to cut emissions. We have the ability/technology to do so, so we might as well do it. I think we should have more after-school programs for kids. Have somethin like an afterschool club where kids can play the latest video games, basketball, whatever they want, after they finish their homework. Have transportation provided and i bet kids would show up.

 

Do i think the current democratic party will takes us there? Not by a longshot. These are just some of my views but this is probably already too long-winded.

[BudBro 161]

The reason i'm a "democrat" is because i'm a person who believes in having grass roots programs. Republicans are too fiscally conservative when it comes to social programs IMO. This doesn't mean i think the demo's are doing a good job with social programs, but at least they believe in having them.

 

it's not too long-winded. there's probably more to know.

 

my kid's daycare provider also mentioned social programs. i think the mindset difference here is that liberals feel people are honest and do need the help, and conservatives feel like most are just taking advantage of the system, which was my impression as well. that was a difficult one for me to step outside of myself and see the "harshness" of that stereotype.

[DuckStupid 40]

Cuz you're uneducated and as dumb as a box of rocks? That's the only reason I can think of.

[Boz/BoFan 0]

it's not too long-winded. there's probably more to know.

 

my kid's daycare provider also mentioned social programs. i think the mindset difference here is that liberals feel people are honest and do need the help, and conservatives feel like most are just taking advantage of the system, which was my impression as well. that was a difficult one for me to step outside of myself and see the "harshness" of that stereotype.

 

What the liberals dont get is what it takes to have a system that will provide for everyone. Capitalism, which has brought this country to its current position as the most dominate, charitable, tech. advanced etc etc superpower the world has ever seen in a measly 200 yrs, is mutually exclusive from Socialism. One cannot coexist with anything more than maybe a 10-15% incursion of the other. There is a tipping point from which you cannot return if you implement too many social programs, the libs will not stop until all is socialized (the nature of feeding the 'progressive' machine), then you will eventually have a gov. resembling communism which is the governing body of a socialist society.

 

Liberals think we can maintain our current levels of success in all fields in a socialist environment, they dont understand that Capitalism, the natural by product of a free society, is the ONLY thing thats gotten us here. Our way of life and the world would suffer horribly if we were to implement the end result of what the libs ultimately desire. Its not that the Cons or the Repubs dont care about people, you'll see they triple the amount of charitable contributions as libs, its just that their philosophy is why give a man a fish to eat for a day when you can teach him to fish and eat for a lifetime....I know, old and cliche but it sums them up perfectly.

 

Libs use these promises of charity to get elected....its the easiest thing going....im shocked they dont dominate the political landscape of the US like they do in the majority of the rest of the world. I think its a testimony to the majority of the Americans who still want to work for a living and and not vote in someone who makes cheap promises to get elected.

[gratefulted 14]

Cuz you're uneducated and as dumb as a box of rocks? That's the only reason I can think of.

He said he wanted to know why he should become a democrat, not some spineless poosay republican!

 

PAY ATTENTION!

[DuckStupid 40]

He said he wanted to know why he should become a democrat, not some spineless poosay republican!

 

PAY ATTENTION!

 

When it comes to the extremes on both sides, I'd have to agree with you. Somewhere down the middle is where most of the country lies, but it seems we can't find/create a party that wants to run on that platform.

[Uh-huh 0]

my kid's daycare provider also mentioned social programs. i think the mindset difference here is that liberals feel people are honest and do need the help, and conservatives feel like most are just taking advantage of the system, which was my impression as well.

 

See Gladstone's quote in my sig.

[Boz/BoFan 0]

See Gladstone's quote in my sig.

 

 

Have you even seen Star Wars ?

[gratefulted 14]

When it comes to the extremes on both sides, I'd have to agree with you. Somewhere down the middle is where most of the country lies, but it seems we can't find/create a party that wants to run on that platform.

[Uh-huh 0]

Have you even seen Star Wars ?

 

Boz/BoFan, when you actually have something meaningful to say, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

 

Unfortunately, your drivel is not meaningful.

[itsbigmoni 1]

What the liberals dont get is what it takes to have a system that will provide for everyone. Capitalism, which has brought this country to its current position as the most dominate, charitable, tech. advanced etc etc superpower the world has ever seen in a measly 200 yrs, is mutually exclusive from Socialism. One cannot coexist with anything more than maybe a 10-15% incursion of the other. There is a tipping point from which you cannot return if you implement too many social programs, the libs will not stop until all is socialized (the nature of feeding the 'progressive' machine), then you will eventually have a gov. resembling communism which is the governing body of a socialist society.

 

Liberals think we can maintain our current levels of success in all fields in a socialist environment, they dont understand that Capitalism, the natural by product of a free society, is the ONLY thing thats gotten us here. Our way of life and the world would suffer horribly if we were to implement the end result of what the libs ultimately desire. Its not that the Cons or the Repubs dont care about people, you'll see they triple the amount of charitable contributions as libs, its just that their philosophy is why give a man a fish to eat for a day when you can teach him to fish and eat for a lifetime....I know, old and cliche but it sums them up perfectly.

 

Libs use these promises of charity to get elected....its the easiest thing going....im shocked they dont dominate the political landscape of the US like they do in the majority of the rest of the world. I think its a testimony to the majority of the Americans who still want to work for a living and and not vote in someone who makes cheap promises to get elected.

 

 

I agree with that 100%. Why can't we use social programs to teach people necessary skills? I know people will try to take advantage but thats why you have strict rules. Its been a while since i read up about it, but there was this homeless shelter that was the perfect example. They only had limited capacity but breakfast and dinner were provided and i think(not 100% sure) provided the "residents" with jobs. They also had to help take care of the place and each person had a checklist that included even small things like you must make your bed. If they focked up, they were out and they would take one of the next people trying to get in. Simple and effective. It teaches them responsibility and all that good stuff.

 

We've never been a complete capitalistic economy and i'm sure you know that. I'm not sure what "form" of government i want but what i describe sounds a lot like socialism in a way. But i'm not for big government in business and that kind of stuff. Unfortunately we can't trust business. Even if what rockafeller(sp?) did what he did through legal means, that kind of stuff is not good for economy. Businesses like enron prove we need government oversight. In a sense our government is reactionary when it comes to business. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you want something as close as possible to lassie fair. History has proven that it can't work on a landscape as big as the u.s. Too much greed and not enough honesty would ruin the benefits of it.

 

Again, i'm not for government owned business and that kind of thing but i'm in favor of productive social programs. I just think there are too many kids growing up in focked up situations that could use a helping hand. If we start from the ground up, maybe 2-3 generations later we won't need as many social programs.

 

I don't think we're the greatest super power the world has ever seen. The sun sets on our empire. And we got nothin on the roman empire. WWII was one of the biggest reasons why we became a superpower. Before that, i agree we were up there with all the other biggest and baddest nations but after ww2 and the cold war, is when we became what we are. Our country was based on being a bad ass after we whooped up the british with our "army." That gave us a great start.

[Boz/BoFan 0]

I agree with that 100%. Why can't we use social programs to teach people necessary skills? I know people will try to take advantage but thats why you have strict rules. Its been a while since i read up about it, but there was this homeless shelter that was the perfect example. They only had limited capacity but breakfast and dinner were provided and i think(not 100% sure) provided the "residents" with jobs. They also had to help take care of the place and each person had a checklist that included even small things like you must make your bed. If they focked up, they were out and they would take one of the next people trying to get in. Simple and effective. It teaches them responsibility and all that good stuff.

 

We've never been a complete capitalistic economy and i'm sure you know that. I'm not sure what "form" of government i want but what i describe sounds a lot like socialism in a way. But i'm not for big government in business and that kind of stuff. Unfortunately we can't trust business. Even if what rockafeller(sp?) did what he did through legal means, that kind of stuff is not good for economy. Businesses like enron prove we need government oversight. In a sense our government is reactionary when it comes to business. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you want something as close as possible to lassie fair. History has proven that it can't work on a landscape as big as the u.s. Too much greed and not enough honesty would ruin the benefits of it.

 

Again, i'm not for government owned business and that kind of thing but i'm in favor of productive social programs. I just think there are too many kids growing up in focked up situations that could use a helping hand. If we start from the ground up, maybe 2-3 generations later we won't need as many social programs.

 

I don't think we're the greatest super power the world has ever seen. The sun sets on our empire. And we got nothin on the roman empire. WWII was one of the biggest reasons why we became a superpower. Before that, i agree we were up there with all the other biggest and baddest nations but after ww2 and the cold war, is when we became what we are. Our country was based on being a bad ass after we whooped up the british with our "army." That gave us a great start.

 

 

Im not against social programs, we need them. But there is only so much a society can bear fiscally and emotionally before we find ourselves in bread lines....the progress of socialism is not instantaneous, its almost undetectable and begins in the exact climate you will find in the current Dem. party, and those in power who oppose it struggle heavily every day to keep it at bay.

 

We are the direct offspring of the Roman empire and have one upped them in every facet of society. Its no secret, these ideals have been fought over for thousands of years. The reason our chief export is war is not because we are a militant society, its because we know what we've got and understand the movements across the globe that threaten it. Had you been born in the 30's you may have a better understanding. All of this is possible because we have not let the ideological avalanche of social programs stunt our growth, we can keep on keepin on because of our capitalistic nature, strike while the iron is hot so to speak.

 

Anyway, if you dont get it, i prob. cant convince you. Ive spent time in Russia and China and thank the god I dont believe in everyday to be a US citizen. Until you have lived in these places, even the UK and France now, I guess you just cant appreciate it. Our constitution and its amendments are perfect, though some still continue to try to pervert it......its not the Republicans.

[itsbigmoni 1]

Ok you win. I just don't get it. You are intellectually superior and of course my simple brain will never be able to comprehend what you said. Republicans are perfect. Spying on citizens, lying to its citizens, taking away constitutionally guaranteed rights like habeus corpus, and all of that non-sense does not undermine the constitution.

 

I guess there goes the debate/discussion. Don't blame me for it, you're the one trying to belittle other people by saying "if you dont get it, i prob. cant convince you." Its not a matter of difference of opinion, its you are right, and i just dont get it.

[Boz/BoFan 0]

Ok you win. I just don't get it. You are intellectually superior and of course my simple brain will never be able to comprehend what you said. Republicans are perfect. Spying on citizens, lying to its citizens, taking away constitutionally guaranteed rights like habeus corpus, and all of that non-sense does not undermine the constitution.

 

I guess there goes the debate/discussion. Don't blame me for it, you're the one trying to belittle other people by saying "if you dont get it, i prob. cant convince you." Its not a matter of difference of opinion, its you are right, and i just dont get it.

 

I was not saying that at all. I was saying your mind kinda seems made up about social programs in the least, and possible sweeping social programs at worst.....nothing to do with intellect, only mindset. There are a number of brilliant individuals who for some reason or another choose to side with a flawed ideology eg Marx, Ted Kazinski, Hitler (140+ IQ) etc etc. Im not saying you are dumb. Im saying you MIGHT be wrong as I detect the slightest hint that you may still be thinking on these issues.

[cmh6476 885]

democrats are ghey

[teejay booker 0]

Legalized marijuana

[PackerAttacker 0]

Democrats = People are entitled to what they get from the gov

Republicans = People must work for what they are given

[Peens 0]

Democrats = People are entitled to what they get from the gov

Republicans = People must work for what they are given

 

Democrats dislike the Military, they are always trying to cut Defense and raise taxes. Boy, dont they just love rasing taxes. That is why they have NEVER gotten my vote. I like my taxes low, im just weird like that.

[MDC 6,570]

I'm not a registered Democrat, but I've been voting for them more and more over the past few years because the Republican party has been hijacked by its worst fringe elements and the Dems are now the lesser of two evils.

 

The biggest thing that's offended me over the past six years is the GOP's total deference to the President. I don't care what your party is, Bush just sucks. He is running the biggest, most expensive and intrusive government in history; he has stretched executive powers way too much, to the point where he disregards inconvenient laws and repeatedly lies to the public; and the war in Iraq is a proven failure. The GOP has not stood up to the President at all, and all the corruption in Congress over the past six years was disgusting. In the midterms, for the first time in my life I pulled the lever for the Democratic party - it was more of a giant "fock you" to the Republican party than anything else.

 

Far as their party platforms go I see very little difference between the Reps and the Dems. Mainly I think a divided government with one party controlling Congress and the other controlling the executive branch is best. I also think most of the criticisms of the Dems coming from the right are just bluster. You'll often here that they don't "trust you with your money" and want to raise taxes. Just look at the mess the Republican party has created in Iraq and the record deficits Bush has rung up and ask yourself who is going to pay for that? These foreign policy escapades are going to cost you one hell of a lot more than the Dems spending ever would. And after enacting the single biggest entitlement program in decades (Medicare Rx) and jacking domestic, non-military spending up around 15% over Clinton levels, no Republican has the moral high ground when it comes to spending anymore.

 

Both parties are the suck but the Republican party right now is much worse. HTH.

[Peens 0]

The Dems seem to be way too "PC" for me. Hilary has already been on record as saying she hates the military. I dont know bout you but any Commander in Chief that doesnt like the Military makes me feel a bit uneasy.

[Isotopes 1]

The Dems seem to be way too "PC" for me. Hilary has already been on record as saying she hates the military. I dont know bout you but any Commander in Chief that doesnt like the Military makes me feel a bit uneasy.

 

I would be very interested to see a link to where Hillary went on the record saying she "hates" the military.

[surferskin 30]

are you...

poor?

whiny?

colored?

a poosay?

ghey?

 

there may be other reasons but i think that's about it.

[Peens 0]

A good example of how the military views Hilary.

 

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hillary-soldier.htm

[KSB2424 3,096]

are you...

poor?

whiny?

colored?

a poosay?

ghey?

 

there may be other reasons but i think that's about it.

 

 

You show me one poor, black, lesbian that votes GOP and I'll show you a herd of pink unicorns.

[Artist Formerly Known as Big O 0]

I have never voted along party lines, nor do I adhere to an absolute ideological stance.

 

On most issues I simply prefer to error on the side of compassion and typically, this results in a vote for a Democrat.

 

Example: I am pro death penalty in concept, but cannot support a system which costs us so much money, wastes time and has a significant % of innocent people killed.

 

Example 2: Hate welfare abuse, realize there is a legitimate need for some social services, so I support the current systemin the hope that it does aid those in true need. Give me something that works better for less $$$, Repub or Democrat sponsored, and I'd take it in a heartbeat.

[resser2 0]

good posts in this thread. I really pictured this turning into a name calling fight between 2 or 3 people.

[BudBro 161]

See Gladstone's quote in my sig.

 

"Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of the people, tempered by fear." -- William Gladstone

 

this is tough one for me, uh-huh. i have trouble believing liberals really trust us since they want to use our money to spend it their way. if they trusted us, and used prudence, they would allow me to use it how i feel best. i do think there is a distrust of people by conservatives, though i don't think there is fear. again, stereotypical, but conservatives are usually the risk takers. i think the fear is having somebody else reap the rewards for the risks they are willing to take.

 

i talked again for a bit last night with my daycare provider and want to run some things past all of you.

 

she mentioned the democratic party was the working class people. i'm not sure that's the case any longer. maybe 50 years ago, but not now. do you guys feel the liberal leadership of your party really represents you? do the rich kerrys, edwards, and rich hollywood elites really represent you and the way you live and think on a daily basis? you're on a fantasy football website, so i have my doubts that you think like they do. i'm getting the impression, and i appreciate it, that most of the friction comes from the current administration and times that we're in right now. i'm having trouble with bush having to stand on an island all alone for this war and for our protection when they all voted and proceeded on the same information. i know the buck stops with him, but if he had the same information then that he has now, he may have chosen a different course also. do you really think pres. bush wakes up every day and says to himself, "what can i do today to insure that i'm the worst president ever?" i don't know, maybe he does, but i doubt it.

 

i know that not everyone here is affiliated with or grew up in church. i guess i had separated the business of america to the government and the social care of the people with the church. but, since there are those who don't trust the church and don't want to help in that way, the government must fill that void, i suppose. it's a misgiving on my part, and a depressing state of the nation we've evolved into.

 

there's some personal responsibility missing in america that may never be recoverable. i suppose i should resign myself to the fact that the government is going to always be the babysitter.

 

b

[BudBro 161]

What the liberals dont get is what it takes to have a system that will provide for everyone. Capitalism, which has brought this country to its current position as the most dominate, charitable, tech. advanced etc etc superpower the world has ever seen in a measly 200 yrs, is mutually exclusive from Socialism. One cannot coexist with anything more than maybe a 10-15% incursion of the other. There is a tipping point from which you cannot return if you implement too many social programs, the libs will not stop until all is socialized (the nature of feeding the 'progressive' machine), then you will eventually have a gov. resembling communism which is the governing body of a socialist society.

 

Liberals think we can maintain our current levels of success in all fields in a socialist environment, they dont understand that Capitalism, the natural by product of a free society, is the ONLY thing thats gotten us here. Our way of life and the world would suffer horribly if we were to implement the end result of what the libs ultimately desire. Its not that the Cons or the Repubs dont care about people, you'll see they triple the amount of charitable contributions as libs, its just that their philosophy is why give a man a fish to eat for a day when you can teach him to fish and eat for a lifetime....I know, old and cliche but it sums them up perfectly.

 

Libs use these promises of charity to get elected....its the easiest thing going....im shocked they dont dominate the political landscape of the US like they do in the majority of the rest of the world. I think its a testimony to the majority of the Americans who still want to work for a living and and not vote in someone who makes cheap promises to get elected.

 

maybe we have to try and figure out why the liberals aren't concerned with capitalism. why do they feel it isn't necessary any longer? somebody here has an idea, and i'd like to hear it.

 

have we lost our boldness as a society? it seems like we're playing with scared money.

[BudBro 161]

I'm not a registered Democrat, but I've been voting for them more and more over the past few years because the Republican party has been hijacked by its worst fringe elements and the Dems are now the lesser of two evils.

 

The biggest thing that's offended me over the past six years is the GOP's total deference to the President. I don't care what your party is, Bush just sucks. He is running the biggest, most expensive and intrusive government in history; he has stretched executive powers way too much, to the point where he disregards inconvenient laws and repeatedly lies to the public; and the war in Iraq is a proven failure. The GOP has not stood up to the President at all, and all the corruption in Congress over the past six years was disgusting. In the midterms, for the first time in my life I pulled the lever for the Democratic party - it was more of a giant "fock you" to the Republican party than anything else.

 

Far as their party platforms go I see very little difference between the Reps and the Dems. Mainly I think a divided government with one party controlling Congress and the other controlling the executive branch is best. I also think most of the criticisms of the Dems coming from the right are just bluster. You'll often here that they don't "trust you with your money" and want to raise taxes. Just look at the mess the Republican party has created in Iraq and the record deficits Bush has rung up and ask yourself who is going to pay for that? These foreign policy escapades are going to cost you one hell of a lot more than the Dems spending ever would. And after enacting the single biggest entitlement program in decades (Medicare Rx) and jacking domestic, non-military spending up around 15% over Clinton levels, no Republican has the moral high ground when it comes to spending anymore.

 

Both parties are the suck but the Republican party right now is much worse. HTH.

 

you make valuable points, but seem to lean left in deference to the right, not really because the left has anything to offer. the same sort of reasoning that wiffleball gave.

 

we can't pay for any of the programs you mentioned, and haven't been able to pay for any of them for about 30 years. we're printing money as fast as possible and judging by the way the rest of the world values our currency, the citizens of the united states are the only ones that don't know we're in trouble.

 

the tire is flat with regards to this war and it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to waste time and resources debating how the tire got flat. it's time to fix it, air it up, and move forward. i don't know how to do that, but i'd rather see obama author some legislation on his proposal now and see how everyone votes on it than have him hem and haw for another year about how he would do it. egos just get in the way of productivity. i'm waiting for somebody to go to work.

[MDC 6,570]

you make valuable points, but seem to lean left in deference to the right, not really because the left has anything to offer. the same sort of reasoning that wiffleball gave.

 

I replied because you put my name in the first post - I'm not a registered Democrat and before '06 I'd probably voted for as many Reps as Dems over the years. Just giving you my best answer.

 

we can't pay for any of the programs you mentioned, and haven't been able to pay for any of them for about 30 years. we're printing money as fast as possible and judging by the way the rest of the world values our currency, the citizens of the united states are the only ones that don't know we're in trouble.

 

the tire is flat with regards to this war and it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to waste time and resources debating how the tire got flat. it's time to fix it, air it up, and move forward. i don't know how to do that, but i'd rather see obama author some legislation on his proposal now and see how everyone votes on it than have him hem and haw for another year about how he would do it. egos just get in the way of productivity. i'm waiting for somebody to go to work.

 

In regards to this war I really think it's time to pull back and let the Iraqis sort it out. If they want civil war, let them have it. I am convinced we're going to end up backing out of Iraq anyway, so I'd rather do it sooner and save lives and money. The war was a failure and staying there out of pride isn't going to make it any better. Nothing we are doing over there is making the situation any better.

[BudBro 161]

I replied because you put my name in the first post - I'm not a registered Democrat and before '06 I'd probably voted for as many Reps as Dems over the years. Just giving you my best answer.

 

In regards to this war I really think it's time to pull back and let the Iraqis sort it out. If they want civil war, let them have it. I am convinced we're going to end up backing out of Iraq anyway, so I'd rather do it sooner and save lives and money. The war was a failure and staying there out of pride isn't going to make it any better. Nothing we are doing over there is making the situation any better.

 

i included you based upon many of the posts that i've read. please don't take offense to being associated one way or the other.

 

i, too, think there will be a pullout. politicians are too sensitive to their constituency in their bid for re-election and will pressure the administration to give up early. it didn't end in the time it took the soccer mom to get the happy meal in the drive thru, so it's probably never going to happen. i truly don't think the iraqis care to make their country a better place and we probably shouldn't either, but we've been doing it through 4 or 5 other wars where we shouldn't have cared either. france seems to be pretty grateful for the help we provided. removal of saddam certainly weakens iran, syria, and hamas, but the bigger picture often gets lost in the details and the costs.

[parrot 789]

i included you based upon many of the posts that i've read. please don't take offense to being associated one way or the other.

 

i, too, think there will be a pullout. politicians are too sensitive to their constituency in their bid for re-election and will pressure the administration to give up early. it didn't end in the time it took the soccer mom to get the happy meal in the drive thru, so it's probably never going to happen.

How long would be long enough? If you're right and the Iraqis really don't care about making their country a better place, do we really think we're just going to make that magically happen? At some point does it become allowable - i.e. not defeatist or treasonous - to start thinking "Hey, maybe we should just get the fock out of there..."?

 

You realize we've been in the Iraq war longer than we were in WWII, right?

[MDC 6,570]

i included you based upon many of the posts that i've read. please don't take offense to being associated one way or the other.

 

I'm not offended at all. Just telling you why I think you should vote Democrat now. I can't tell you why you should become a Democrat because I'm a registered Independent.

 

i, too, think there will be a pullout. politicians are too sensitive to their constituency in their bid for re-election and will pressure the administration to give up early. it didn't end in the time it took the soccer mom to get the happy meal in the drive thru, so it's probably never going to happen. i truly don't think the iraqis care to make their country a better place and we probably shouldn't either, but we've been doing it through 4 or 5 other wars where we shouldn't have cared either. france seems to be pretty grateful for the help we provided. removal of saddam certainly weakens iran, syria, and hamas, but the bigger picture often gets lost in the details and the costs.

 

We disagree on some of this stuff.

 

I think the big reason why people are tired of this war is that it's not the war the admin said it would be. The primary justification was WMD and not only did Saddam not have them, it looks an awful lot like the WH knew their case was a lot weaker than the one they were presenting. It didn't help that Rumsfeld and Cheney were making perdictions about the war taking six months or less, or claiming it'd cost about $30B, most of which would be paid for by oil revenues (I've linked to this stuff at least 10 times and don't plan to do it again). Even aside from all that, the war was a military disaster from the get-go - poor planning and not enough troops.I honestly think the public would be willing to tolerate a much longer and more expensive war in terms of $$$ and casualties if it were just and in our best interests.

 

I also think the removal of Saddam, if anything has strengthened Iran in particularly and anti-American regimes in the ME in general. For years, bin Laden and his kind have been saying we want to launch a Crusade to indefinitely occupy their holy lands for oil. So what do we do? Our Bible beating President invades a soveign nation and one of Islam's religious lands based on false intelligence, claiming WMD in stark good vs. evil terms, killing tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and the ones getting rich are the defense and oil industries. We've just stoked anti-American sentiment all over the world, particularly in the middle east, and arguably made ourselves less safe by demonstrating the limits of American military might and overextending ourselves. Of course North Korea and Iran are rattling the saber - this administration has blown its credibility wad and couldn't pull off another invasion even if it was justified.

 

It was just a blunder from start to finish - the wrong country, sold on bad intelligence, based on lowball figures, etc. At one time maybe a year ago or longer a troop surge of 20K might have meant something. At this point, I really think it's Bush's attempt to appear to be doing something without doing anything. The man is stalling until he gets out of office and can pass the buck onto our next President. God help him whoever that poor man is.

 

In fairness, the Democratic Congress should really be defunding the invasion and mandating troop withdrawls, but you know they would take all of the blame for the inevitable chaos. I personally think we should pull back to a strategic position and let the Iraqis fight out their civil war, but if Congress pulls the trigger on that plan you know we're going to be hearing how we were on the verge of victory until they cut and ran, etc. It's cowardly and pragmatic but it's the truth. The only reason I blast Bush more is that this stupid escapade was his idea and if the GOP won last November we wouldn't even be talking about benchmarks, much less a phased withdrawl.

 

So there you go. I can't tell you to become a Democrat, but I think these are pretty good reasons to vote Dem, if for no other reason than to send a message to the GOP that gross incompetence and dishonesty will not be tolerated. And if the Dems suck, vote them out too.

 

My cynical two cents.

[Flashover 0]

Republicans = for corporations

Democrats = for the people

 

Republicans seem to be good at campaigning but not good at governing.

Democrats seem to be good at governing but not good at campaigning.

 

Democrats are more tolerant and open minded

Republicans are less tolerant and closed minded

 

Recently I have gotten tired of Republicans relying on slogans & smearing. Saying things like Democrats hate the military or the Democrats want the terrorists to win etc. is just absurd but yet a lot of sheeple believe that cr*p. I guess this kinda fits into the campaigning thing. The other main negative I have of the Republican party is how they have been taken over by the Religious right which kinda fits into the no tolerance thing.

 

As others have stated when it comes down to it, you have to look at the issue not the party. Both the Republicans & Democrats have changed and a lot of people should take a moment and reevaluate their views of the two parties.