Is this fair?

[ralphster 274]

 

To each his own, but it sounds like this needs to get clarified for future seasons.

 

After Rob's last post I too agree that what he's trying to do is not cheating. It's pretty savvy actually, save the part about making the trade before all the rules were straight. This experience will likely force his league into better bylaw clarity and should benefit ultimately from it.

[seadog54 20]

This is bullsh*t. Your league needs to clarify this because in my keeper league, if you tried to pull this bullsh*t, you'd get smacked down.

Offseason trades in non dynasty keeper leagues (ie: keep 1 or 2 players) should only allow players kept to be traded. Either for another keeper player straight up, or another keeper + draft picks, or just draft picks.

You should not be allowed to trade bench players (players not being kept) for draft picks because technically once you declare your keepers, you do not own the rest of your roster, therefore they cannot be traded.

[swirvenirvin 25]

 

Okay, I will agree with this if rosters are really yours until the 25th, as the op stated. I guess for me then, it isn't really a 2 keeper league in the most strict sense. I could trade half my team for draft picks before declaring, thus getting value for way more than just two players. This plays more like a dynasty league than true keeper in this rules format. To each his own, but it sounds like this needs to get clarified for future seasons.

Not really 2 keepers isn't a lot. Most teams should have some pretty good options, but it does mean some trades can take place in the off-season. And good for you if you have 3 valuable keepers and get to trade one away for a higher draft pick

[Voltaire 4,564]

To everybody reading this thread, keep it in mind for the rest of your FF existence. Do not let what's happening in Rob's league happen to you.

 

When playing in a keeper league, a huge, huge, one of the most important rule to hash out before season one starts: is WTF is the status of players from last year's roster who are outside the keeper requirements. Situations where one guy has three keepers and another has only one and they want to trade happen all the time. It's unavoidable. Make it very clear and have that agreed to in advance how to handle the situation.

 

Because as we can see here, folks who play with keepers use two very different methods. How I always do it is different from how you always do it and you're a cheating scumbag for not doing it my way.

 

In fact, both methods can be valid, both can be considered fair. Keeper leagues can be and are played successfully either way. Ignoring this difference of opinions -not talking about it when the league is founded- is a ticking time bomb. It'll tear the league apart. The worst time to make that decision is year two's preseason when everybody gets p*ssed off, points fingers, and starts badmouthing each other. Ignore this rule in year one and you're courting disaster in year two.

[BeerBellyBoys 0]

Finally got permission to reply, #1. rules do need to be set prior to this type of crap happening. #2. The keeper league I am in locks out trading in week 12 or 13 and it does not open until the next year after the keepers are named. This rule would not allow this trade. #3. The move is allowed according to the rules so it has to be allowed and you can start looking for new members right after the rule gets changed.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Offseason trades in non dynasty keeper leagues (ie: keep 1 or 2 players) should only allow players kept to be traded. Either for another keeper player straight up, or another keeper + draft picks, or just draft picks.

 

???? This is exactly what he is doing.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Ok so how about this scenario.

 

Last year someone in my league has julio jones to keep in the fifth round. I offer to pick whoever that person wants at my first pick in exchange for julio. If trades arent allowed until after the draft is that considered breaking the rules?

[seadog54 20]

???? This is exactly what he is doing.

No he is not. He is KEEPING McCoy and Martin and trying to trade Rodgers for draft picks in which he is not a keeper

[GreenTD 56]

This is bullsh*t. Your league needs to clarify this because in my keeper league, if you tried to pull this bullsh*t, you'd get smacked down.

 

Offseason trades in non dynasty keeper leagues (ie: keep 1 or 2 players) should only allow players kept to be traded. Either for another keeper player straight up, or another keeper + draft picks, or just draft picks.

 

You should not be allowed to trade bench players (players not being kept) for draft picks because technically once you declare your keepers, you do not own the rest of your roster, therefore they cannot be traded.

Agreed. Voltaire & MFM both bring up the most important points of the discussion. If you are doing either a keeper/dynasty league, bylaws need to be set to prevent these scenarios from happening. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for disaster.

 

I understand Rob's point of view & wouldn't describe this as cheating but I feel it is testing the integrity of the unwritten or perceived rules of the league. Not sure how long this league has been in existence but it seems like the general consensus is that only declared keepers were intended to be the only players eligible to be traded in the offseason. Otherwise, if you truly believe this trade should go through, then it sounds more like a dynasty league.

 

In my 2-keeper league I have a wealth of available keepers in J. Charles (2), S. Ridley (5), RGIII (6), D. Wilson (8), AJ Green (8), R. Gronkowski (13). I'm keeping AJ Green for sure (Bengals fan) & a case can be made for every other player. For me it boils down to D. Wilson & J. Charles at this point. If I could trade Charles for a 2nd rounder to get max value & keep Wilson, I'd love to do that but that is essentially keeping 3 players, IMO.

 

Personally, I think the commish himself should use this as a case to implement league bylaws & use it as an example. Otherwise this will disband the league & is that really worth it by trying to test the unwritten rules? Take the high road Rob & rescind the trade so order is restored. My $.02

[AnaheimRams 28]

Who the hell is Marshall Rodgers?

[TimmySmith 2,782]

No he is not. He is KEEPING McCoy and Martin and trying to trade Rodgers for draft picks in which he is not a keeper

I don't think you understand what is going on. Nor do I think you are much interested in understanding it.

 

The OP messed up when he announced his intent to keep certain players. He should have said "I am in a keeper league and I am doing an off-season trade of Rogers for a 2nd round draft pick". His potential keepers have no bearing on the situation.

[seadog54 20]

I don't think you understand what is going on. Nor do I think you are much interested in understanding it.

 

The OP messed up when he announced his intent to keep certain players. He should have said "I am in a keeper league and I am doing an off-season trade of Rogers for a 2nd round draft pick". His potential keepers have no bearing on the situation.

 

 

You are missing the point. Maybe based on his league rules, technically this trade might be legit. But he asked if the trade was fair and if it would mess with the parity of the league.

 

The answer is yes, it will mess with the parity of the league and it isn't fair.

 

Team A (OP) is giving away Rodgers for a 2nd round pick for free. The OP would be Keeping LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + a extra 2nd round pick for Rodgers which he wasn't going to keep anyway. If you think that is fair, then good for you. Try pulling that stunt in your own league and see if people will object.

[crazywhorse 6]

Lets summarize the situation.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy and Doug Martin
Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and next worthy candidate is McFadden.

Team B owner thinks that McFadden isn't a worthy keeper and he wants Aaron Rodgers from team A since Team A isn't keeping Rodgers.

Team B offers Team A his 2nd round draft pick for Rodgers.

The end result is:

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + Team B's 2nd round draft pick
Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers minus their 2nd round draft pick.

Team A comes ahead for giving away Rodgers and getting a free 2nd round draft pick while Team B get's shafted by losing their 2nd round draft pick and only keeping 2 players.

 

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Team A is giving away Rodgers for a 2nd round pick for free. Team A would be Keeping LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + a extra 2nd round pick for Rodgers which he wasn't going to keep anyway. If you think that is fair, then good for you. Try pulling that stunt in your own league and see if people will object.

It's no stunt. Either off-season trades are allowed or they aren't. That is the issue.

[crazywhorse 6]

It's no stunt. Either off-season trades are allowed or they aren't. That is the issue.

 

You can have off-season trades with only keepers that are announced. Or you can trade draft picks.

 

The issue is that the league didn't clarify that ONLY keepers can be traded during the off season.

[dehaven123 31]

Lets summarize the situation.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy and Doug Martin

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and next worthy candidate is McFadden.

 

Team B owner thinks that McFadden isn't a worthy keeper and he wants Aaron Rodgers from team A since Team A isn't keeping Rodgers.

 

Team B offers Team A his 2nd round draft pick for Rodgers.

 

The end result is:

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + Team B's 2nd round draft pick

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers minus their 2nd round draft pick.

 

Team A comes ahead for giving away Rodgers and getting a free 2nd round draft pick while Team B get's shafted by losing their 2nd round draft pick and only keeping 2 players.

 

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

 

this turned into a good thread.

good opinions, all the way around. i appreciate the passion some of you have.

i think the post above sums up the events pretty well and captures the perspective i have on it, too.

at a minimum, team A is pushing the integrity of the game clause to its limits. at its worst, the league could ultimately disband.

[GreenTD 56]

Lets summarize the situation.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy and Doug Martin

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and next worthy candidate is McFadden.

 

Team B owner thinks that McFadden isn't a worthy keeper and he wants Aaron Rodgers from team A since Team A isn't keeping Rodgers.

 

Team B offers Team A his 2nd round draft pick for Rodgers.

 

The end result is:

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + Team B's 2nd round draft pick

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers minus their 2nd round draft pick.

 

Team A comes ahead for giving away Rodgers and getting a free 2nd round draft pick while Team B get's shafted by losing their 2nd round draft pick and only keeping 2 players.

 

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

Slow clap, thanks for stating it more eloquently crazywhorse.

 

It's a case of the commish believing that the whole league understood that only declared keepers can be dealt for other players/picks & didn't think to have that clearly stated to all owners in the league. Not sure if the OP knew/thought this & was trying to exploit the loophole by not having a rule regarding it but who knows. Rob should just let it go so the entire league doesn't disband over a 2nd round pick.

[idiotec 31]

I stopped reading when I got to "fair" and "parity."

[Rob g 1]

My final solution was no trades till after draft however you get to pick your keepers aug 25th and keep your whole roster from previous year just in case preseason injuries occur, I apreciate everyone opinions and advice.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594]

whats the point of a keeper league if you cant make deals for picks in the off season

 

3 man keeper league, there have been 15 trades made during my off season

 

trades like I have done

I give Drew Brees

I get Cam Newton and a 1

 

I give Andre Johnson for a 2

 

I had 4 keepers in Brees, Martin, Miller and Johnson, I have now set my 3 keepers and added 2 draft picks. The teams I traded these players to were happy cause their keepers were Reggie Wayne and Mikel Leshoure before dealing

 

Each team gets to manage their own team, thats the fun of it, wheeling and dealing is part of the game.

 

as to the OP, and the guy that thinks this is so unfair, as long as the deadline isnt set his players are still his, people in the league that are mad are just pissed they didnt offer their 2nd for Rodgers. What if the OP worked out a deal to trade Mccoy for the no 1 pick and keep Rodgers, he still has time to do that as well

[jaxjag 43]

I guess this depends on your view of when you cease to own your roster. And this will likely vary either by rule or tradition. I own my roster up to the moment I post my keepers on the draft board. Up until then I can do whatever I want with those names, short of selling them for money, drugs or sex. And this includes trading any surplus players for an additional draft pick. If whining is the yardstick for measuring fairness, we've never had any. A little groaning, yes. Whining, no. So, at least in our 12-person universe, I reckon what we're doing (and it's not done that often) is considered fair.

 

This is exactly correct. I can't believe people cannot grasp the concept of offseason trading. Is this everyone's first year of keeper/dynasty league play?

 

If keepers are yet to be declared and draft picks are a tradable commodity, you could absolutely trade Rodgers (and a last round pick) for a second rounder. Both teams will have two keepers and both teams will go into the draft with the same number of picks. One player will have moved up in draft position by virtue of having quality, expendable depth and the other will have moved down to improve the strength of his keepers.

 

This is absolutely fair and - get this - a tactic available to everyone in the league equally.

[jaxjag 43]

Lets summarize the situation.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy and Doug Martin

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and next worthy candidate is McFadden.

 

Team B owner thinks that McFadden isn't a worthy keeper and he wants Aaron Rodgers from team A since Team A isn't keeping Rodgers.

 

Team B offers Team A his 2nd round draft pick for Rodgers.

 

The end result is:

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + Team B's 2nd round draft pick

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers minus their 2nd round draft pick.

 

Team A comes ahead for giving away Rodgers and getting a free 2nd round draft pick while Team B get's shafted by losing their 2nd round draft pick and only keeping 2 players.

 

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

 

As I stated above, Team a probably has to throw in a late pick so each team has the same number of players at the end of the draft. Draft "picks" are not keepers.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers

 

Team A Draft Picks: Has acquired a 2nd round pick for a late round pick.

Team B Draft Picks: Has given up a 2nd round pick for a later round pick.

 

This is the essence of trading. And available to everyone equally in the league.

 

Now, if you play with a bunch of widows and orphans, who don't want a challenge and good competition - then feel free to whine about it. You probably already veto every trade after two weeks of nauseating discussion anyway.

[seadog54 20]

It doesn't make any sense in a 1, 2 or 3 player keeper league when you can just trade non keepers away for draft picks. It makes 100% sense in dynasty leagues, but in a 1, 2, or 3 player restricted keeper leagues its just plain dumb. Players can just be traded left and right for draft picks and it makes the redraft pool full of garbage players and there is no point to redraft, might as well make it a dynasty league.

 

If your league allows this, it's a retarded league full of retarded owners.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594]

It doesn't make any sense in a 1, 2 or 3 player keeper league when you can just trade non keepers away for draft picks. It makes 100% sense in dynasty leagues, but in a 1, 2, or 3 player restricted keeper leagues its just plain dumb. Players can just be traded left and right for draft picks and it makes the redraft pool full of garbage players and there is no point to redraft, might as well make it a dynasty league.

 

If your league allows this, it's a retarded league full of retarded owners.

 

uh you just must be a jackass, in a 2 man keeper, the best 24 players should be kept, its obvious you've never actually played in a legit keeper league. How bout last year, the dude trying to make a superbowl push, trading his first round pick to acquire Jimmy Graham cause he was short at TE. obviously you play in a girls league, where trades are probably vetoed every time, you can obviously see you are in the extreme minority. Whats the point of a keeper league if you arent always making moves to better your position, better your keepers, and adding draft picks

[Voltaire 4,564]

It doesn't make any sense in a 1, 2 or 3 player keeper league when you can just trade non keepers away for draft picks. It makes 100% sense in dynasty leagues, but in a 1, 2, or 3 player restricted keeper leagues its just plain dumb. Players can just be traded left and right for draft picks and it makes the redraft pool full of garbage players and there is no point to redraft, might as well make it a dynasty league.

 

If your league allows this, it's a retarded league full of retarded owners.

Um... you do realize that no team can keep more than 2?

[chroniciguana 13]

It seems we're back to the mindset that unless you operate your league exactly like I operate my league, then everything you're doing is wrong and you're a moron. Or a maroon. Or something.

 

Keepers don't exist to create parity. Just the opposite. If I somehow managed to put together a roster at the end of 2012 that leaves me with the NFL's projected top three 2013 RBs, you're starting the season in a pretty deep hole if all you got is Bubby Brister and a bunch of waiver wire refugees. And odds are you're going to stay in that hole unless you work like hell to create your own parity by finding the next Doug Martin or Alfred Morris. And if you believe the way to make that happen is by trading away a draft pick, that's your choice and you get to live with it. I'm not your nanny. I'm the guy who simply wants to add you to my win column, move on to the next week and cash a big check at the end of the season. That is still the reason we do this, right?

 

We give owners the option of keeping up to three players because that's how we decided we wanted to play the game. We allow owners to trade any surplus talent they might have for a bonus draft pick because that's how we decided we wanted to play the game. And for all I know, that guy I give you in exchange for your third-rounder might wind up leading the NFL in scoring. Meanwhile, those three guys I kept could be watching the game in street clothes by Thanksgiving. Last year, the owner who dumped a "questionable" Peterson (who SI ranked 27th among RBs going into the season) for a second-rounder figured he'd just robbed the bank. Instead, he and his studs wound up on the sofa come playoff time. The AP owner wound up endorsing a check. Go figure.

 

If Rodgers somehow winds up averaging six TDs and 500 yards per game this season, spotting the "maroon" in this deal won't require X-ray vision. If he busts, it's not as if the guy who traded away that pick had all that much to lose. But why deny him the chance? And if you think the deal is somehow unfair to you, stop whining and offer up something better.

[chroniciguana 13]

 

uh you just must be a jackass, in a 2 man keeper, the best 24 players should be kept ...

Uh ... this only works if those "best" 24 players somehow manage to figure out a way to equally distribute themselves among those 12 teams and everyone agrees with your definition of "best." If so, you're spot on and he is, indeed, a jackass. If not ...

[heavy-set 39]

wrong bored

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,594]

Uh ... this only works if those "best" 24 players somehow manage to figure out a way to equally distribute themselves among those 12 teams and everyone agrees with your definition of "best." If so, you're spot on and he is, indeed, a jackass. If not ...

what I was getting at, if I see a team that has 3 players in the top 24, I am going to target one of his guys if I have a guy who is around no 35+ as my second keeper.

[MDC 5,895]

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

This.

[swirvenirvin 25]

Lets summarize the situation.

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy and Doug Martin

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and next worthy candidate is McFadden.

 

Team B owner thinks that McFadden isn't a worthy keeper and he wants Aaron Rodgers from team A since Team A isn't keeping Rodgers.

 

Team B offers Team A his 2nd round draft pick for Rodgers.

 

The end result is:

 

Team A Keepers: LeSean McCoy, Doug Martin + Team B's 2nd round draft pick

Team B Keepers: Brandon Marshall and Aaron Rodgers minus their 2nd round draft pick.

 

Team A comes ahead for giving away Rodgers and getting a free 2nd round draft pick while Team B get's shafted by losing their 2nd round draft pick and only keeping 2 players.

 

Rob, be a man, withdraw the trade offer, and work with the commish and the league to clarify the bylaws of off season trading.

Huh he chooses to trade a draft pick, and he gets shafted? What? You statement can't even be explained.

 

Waaaaa let's all be fair and make sure we all start off on equal terms.

[swirvenirvin 25]

 

uh you just must be a jackass, in a 2 man keeper, the best 24 players should be kept, its obvious you've never actually played in a legit keeper league. How bout last year, the dude trying to make a superbowl push, trading his first round pick to acquire Jimmy Graham cause he was short at TE. obviously you play in a girls league, where trades are probably vetoed every time, you can obviously see you are in the extreme minority. Whats the point of a keeper league if you arent always making moves to better your position, better your keepers, and adding draft picks

This

[Teren 2]

I would think that you couldn't trade after the trade deadline from the previous year until the keeper selection deadline or draft.

[jaxjag 43]

Ok so how about this scenario.

 

Last year someone in my league has julio jones to keep in the fifth round. I offer to pick whoever that person wants at my first pick in exchange for julio. If trades arent allowed until after the draft is that considered breaking the rules?

 

I didn't see this answered so I'll give you my take.

 

If trades aren't allowed until AFTER the draft is complete, then you could have an agreement in place to trade whoever you pick in the 1st round for Julio. The trade is simply completed after the draft.

 

ETA: I'm sure some of you will find this to be yet another egregious breaking of rules certain to plunge your league into certain demise, but essentially it is just two teams makeing a straight-up trade.

 

Personally, I believe in keeping your "n" best players and having a draft - I've always thought that tying the player to the round he was drafted was lame.

[lostsoulny 2]

As long as keepers aren't locked and your league allows the trade draft picks option this should go through. We allow trade draft picks prior to our keepers locking (we lock 6 days prior to draft day) the player receiving Rodgers is in his opionion upgrading his keepers and feels that trading a draft pick (while receiving a lower one so every team has the same amount of picks in the draft) is beneficial. Other teams shouldn't be upset because a team is improving their keepers or in the other teams case Improving his draft picks. I did something similar a few years ago where I traded Andre Johnson to a team that wanted to keep him (we keep 2) and I wasn't keeping him so I was glad to pick up a higher pick for my trouble. In my opinion fantasy leagues should run similar to real leagues and as this isn't collusion it is legit. The people saying he now has 3 keepers simply don't understand what keepers are, as you can only keep as many as the rules allow. So plain and simple if the league didn't want to allow for trading of draft picks they should have disabled it in the first place not because they think one team may be getting a better deal.

[pipeman 16]

In our keeper, your players are locked from the trade deadline of the prior year, until the start of the draft. Keepers must be given one week prior to the draft, so your only tradable assets are your three keepers, as well as draft picks from the current draft and next years draft. Seems to work pretty well for us.

[BeerBellyBoys 0]

I would think that you couldn't trade after the trade deadline from the previous year until the keeper selection deadline or draft.

This

[BeerBellyBoys 0]

Any chance someone could set up a poll and we could vote just to see how many people are of what opinion? I could do it outside this topic but I think it should be set up within this line of conversation.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

In our keeper, your players are locked from the trade deadline of the prior year, until the start of the draft. Keepers must be given one week prior to the draft, so your only tradable assets are your three keepers, as well as draft picks from the current draft and next years draft. Seems to work pretty well for us.

 

And if that were the rule in the OP's league, then his trade would be "unfair" (since it violates league rules). But that's not the case from everything the OP has said.

[jaxjag 43]

Any chance someone could set up a poll and we could vote just to see how many people are of what opinion? I could do it outside this topic but I think it should be set up within this line of conversation.

 

The problem is... opinions can be worthless. People want to answer within the context of how their league does it or what they perceive as fair. You have to more objective and draw your conclusion from the league's rules or trade precedents. The league manager didn't lock rosters or prohibit trading of draft picks. So, can you or can't you? This is something the league manager has to answer... we can vote on it but it means nothing.