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Justina Pelletier

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Where is this consensus among many people?

After what transpired earlier, I am not taking anything that anybody says here seriously anymore. Now I am the one who doesn't know if I have been fooled by a bunch of robots that pass the Turing test :).

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After what transpired earlier, I am not taking anything that anybody says here seriously anymore. Now I am the one who doesn't know if I have been fooled by a bunch of robots that pass the Turing test :).

Wtf is with you and the Turing test? It wasn't funny or interesting the first 800 times you mentioned it, and it isn't funny the 801st time either. Try 802, it might stick on that one.

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I don't feel everybody here is out to "get me". I feel though there seems to be two clearly defined sides here:

 

- Those who blindly believe that BCH doctors could do no wrong and that taking the custody of Justina was justified. These people never provided any actual intellectually compelling argument to back their case other than "because doctors at BCH cannot do any wrong". Somebody described these people as a bunch of "middle school aged girls" which seems consistent with their continuous insults and lack of intellectual rigor. For some reason many of these people find that being a survivor of psychiatric abuse makes me an easy punch bag for their team building exercises. I am used to it, which is why I always post anonymously :).

 

- Those who are interested in arguing the merits of the case.

 

I am primarily in those who hold the second view, even if they disagree with me but the first group is constantly distracting with their "mean middle school aged girls" ways :).

 

You don't seem to understand the word "clearly"...or "blindly"

And I bolded a few things for you...first...the cannot do any wrong line you keep using. How many times are you going to be called on that lie yet still use it?

Then you not only whine about insults again...but then insult a large number of people in the next few words.

 

You are not interested in arguing the merits of the case...you are interested in having a bunch of yes men agree with your opinion of things.

Several have argued the merits...argued their side. That you disagree with them made them useful idiots or intellectually inferior to you in your own mind.

Basically...the only side that can be right to you is one that agrees with you...no matter what the actual facts are.

most here saw long ago that it was pointless even trying to have a civil debate with you because you are a very unreasonable person and have your mind set.

You are the definition of bigot that you threw around to insult others earlier. There is no changing your mind no matter what.

 

One side has admitted to the possibility that their opinions could be wrong...the other side is you.

You can keep up the "middle school girls" line you pulled from one of the hacks here...it only makes you look even worse than you already do.

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And when you've got nothing, you attack.

 

Says the guy who does little more than attack other people here?

Yeah...you were the one who attacked her...doubt you will get that.

Now run along to another thread to try and tell people who they are...while you hide behind this alias you created.

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Wtf is with you and the Turing test? It wasn't funny or interesting the first 800 times you mentioned it, and it isn't funny the 801st time either. Try 802, it might stick on that one.

He gets hung up on things...like he did about Aids, blacks, and gays earlier.

Just a rinse and repeat hoping something with stick.

Whats funny is the two hacks that were all over his jock earlier are still holding on to their new hero.

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After what transpired earlier, I am not taking anything that anybody says here seriously anymore. Now I am the one who doesn't know if I have been fooled by a bunch of robots that pass the Turing test :).

 

In other words...just another false claim of yours that when you are called on it you won't admit to being full of crap.

Congrats.

Funny how you whine about all this burden of proof stuff...but when you get called out for bogus claims...you have nothing to add or no way to prove it.

Face it...you pretty much fail every time you post.

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He gets hung up on things...like he did about Aids, blacks, and gays earlier.

Just a rinse and repeat hoping something with stick.

Whats funny is the two hacks that were all over his jock earlier are still holding on to their new hero.

I like the scientists shtick. That's hysterical. I've asked him his field of study a couple of times, but never got a reply. Shocked I tell you!!!!

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In other words...just another false claim of yours that when you are called on it you won't admit to being full of crap.

Congrats.

Funny how you whine about all this burden of proof stuff...but when you get called out for bogus claims...you have nothing to add or no way to prove it.

Face it...you pretty much fail every time you post.

No, it is that I don't like to waste my time, really :).

 

Take what Ken8080 said that "OldMaid" is really a dude who was diagnosed with "schizophrenia" who made up all that stuff about her/his mother :). Do you think that if I had known that earlier I would have spent so much time with him/her?

 

Same with you (and the others). Who knows if you are spewing stuff just for the sake of it.

 

After these 20+ pages is very clear where I stand (and unlike what many others have done I have provided citations from actual experts as well as from respected attorneys when it came to back my claims that what BCH/DCF have done is illegal).

 

I have no intention of wasting my time with lunatics who enjoy hazing newcomers or themselves :).

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So Ken, when she speaks of "her mother being on neuroleptic drugs", is he/she really speaking of him/her being on said drugs? No wonder he/she was upset, to the point of deleting posts, when I sarcastically suggested she might be having a "psychotic episode" :).

OldMaid, you have nothing to worry about with me. I am genuinely anti psychiatry. I do not believe that "the system" is therapeutic in anyway. I would never, ever call the cops to have you committed. If you commit a crime, let the criminal justice system take care of it, but I do not believe that psychiatry is a legitimate area of medicine :).

You keep spewing this, but when asked to provide the proof, you declined.

 

I wonder why... ???

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You keep spewing this, but when asked to provide the proof, you declined.

I wonder why... ???

Glad you came back. A couple of questions (although given your background, I do not know what to make of whatever you will say :) ),

 

- Are you a he or a she? Is it true that you are a male who wants to be a female but who cannot afford it?

 

- Is it true that you made up all that stuff about your mother and that in fact it is you who had the "schizophrenia" diagnosis?

 

See, I am learning the rules of this forum quickly :).

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Glad you came back. A couple of questions (although given your background, I do not know what to make of whatever you will say :) ),

- Are you a he or a she? Is it true that you are a male who wants to be a female but who cannot afford it?

- Is it true that you made up all that stuff about your mother and that in fact it is you who had the "schizophrenia" diagnosis?

See, I am learning the rules of this forum quickly :).

Sadly... you are not.

 

But it's super duper cute that you think you understand. :)

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No sh!t. My mother wasn't even this bonkers.

 

I have no idea what he's talking about at this point. :wacko:

Did I ever tell you guys HIV can be transmitted from keyboards? The safest thing to avoid transmission is to soak all electronics in bleach for several hours, just to be safe.

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Sadly... you are not.

But it's super duper cute that you think you understand. :)

Again, are you a he or a she? (this is binary)

 

Were you or were you not given a label of "schizophrenia" by some psychiatric nut job? (this is also binary)

 

Two simple questions that require simple answers :).

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Her sister did have a muscle biopsy that was indicative of mitochondrial disease. That is one reason that Dr. Korson did not perform that test on Justina. He might have made a different decision had he known about the disaster that was going to befall her at Children's. It is unethical for Children's to say, "You can't "prove" that she has mitochondrial disease because you didn't do a muscle biopsy previously, and now you've lost your chance to prove it because we're in charge and we won't let you." It's also possible that Justina's health is too precarious now to risk doing a muscle biopsy.

I agree BCH should allow it if the diagnosis is in question, but we're not privy to what they do and don't know about her work up.

 

I know you had a friend with a bad experience with muscle biopsy, but it really isn't that big a deal in most cases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21392121

 

 

The development of the percutaneous muscle biopsy technique is recognized as one of the most important scientific contributions in advancing our understanding of skeletal muscle physiology. However, a concern that this procedure may be associated with adverse events still exists. We reported the incidence of adverse outcomes associated with percutaneous muscle biopsy in healthy and diseased subjects. Medical records of 274 volunteers (496 muscle biopsies) were reviewed. This included 168 healthy subjects (330 muscle biopsies) as well as 106 chronically ill patients (166 muscle biopsies). This latter group encompassed patients with type II diabetes (n=28), osteoarthritis (n=39), inclusion body myositis (n=4), polymyositis (n=4), and chronic heart failure (n=31). The most common occurrences were pain (1.27%), erythema (1.27%), and ecchymosis (1.27%). Panic episode, bleeding, and edema were also reported (0.21%, 0.42%, and 0.84%, respectively), while infection, hematoma, inflammation, denervation, numbness, atrophy, and abnormal scarring were not verified. The percent of incidents did not differ between healthy and ill individuals. In conclusion, the incidence of complications associated with percutaneous muscle biopsy is scarce and of minor clinical relevance. Additionally, the rate of adverse events is comparable between healthy and chronically ill subjects.

 

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Again, are you a he or a she? (this is binary)

Were you or were you not given a label of "schizophrenia" by some psychiatric nut job? (this is also binary)

Two simple questions that require simple answers :).

I'm a female. I was born a female. Some people like to give me sh!t because I have small boobs. :(

 

No. The story about my mother is 100% true.

 

If you weren't such a guillable dumbass... you'd have figured that out. :)

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You're trying to hard now psycho. For being a genius scientist, you're still not getting it. You are painfully unfunny.

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I'm a female. I was born a female. Some people like to give me sh!t because I have small boobs. :(

No. The story about my mother is 100% true.

If you weren't such a guillable dumbass... you'd have figured that out. :)

What does the size of your boobs have to do with this really :).

 

Bottom line, you claim that the story you told is true but Ken8080 claims it is not from whatever he knows about you in the past.

 

Honestly, I don't know what to make out of the whole thing since I am a new comer and I have no intention of becoming "buddy" with any of the lunatics in residence :).

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What does the size of your boobs have to do with this really :).

Bottom line, you claim that the story you told is true but Ken8080 claims it is not from whatever he knows about you in the past.

Honestly, I don't know what to make out of the whole thing since I am a new comer and I have no intention of becoming "buddy" with any of the lunatics in residence :).

I think I see the problem here... You can reason from A to B... but you've got problems making the leap to C.

 

You must really be a robot that was programmed to pass the Turing test. Too bad it looks like you were programmed by GM. :(

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I think I see the problem here... You can reason from A to B... but you've got problems making the leap to C.

You must really be a robot that was programmed to pass the Turing test. Too bad it looks like you were programmed by GM. :(

Does this mean that Ken8080 has seen your small boobs and that's why he says you are a male :)?

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Can I get a Cliff Notes on this psych guy?

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I agree BCH should allow it if the diagnosis is in question, but we're not privy to what they do and don't know about her work up.

 

I know you had a friend with a bad experience with muscle biopsy, but it really isn't that big a deal in most cases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21392121

 

Unless BCH agrees that Justina does have mito and thinks she also has somatoform, their diagnosis is absolutely in question, because a renowned metabolic specialist does think she has mito. It might not be that big a deal for a healthy person, but that is not necessarily the case for someone who is already in a weakened state.

 

For those who claim that supporting the parents/sisters/Tufts position requires that one thinks there is a conspiracy among BCH/DCF/the judge, the alternative is assuming a conspiracy among the parents, all three siblings, Dr. Korson and the surgeons who operated on her, Justina's Connecticut psychologist, and the psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow. DCF does rely on BCH for their "medical expertise," so it is by no means an independent body. The judge was embarrassed by the negative publicity, especially concerning his gag order.

 

In spite of the fact that Children's is well known for the quality of some areas, such as cardiac surgery, I have been unable, even after a great deal of research, to find any indication that their psychiatry department is anything special. For pediatric psychiatry, by far the most well known facility in eastern Mass is McLean Hospital, with Franciscans probably coming in second.

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Can I get a Cliff Notes on this psych guy?

Besides the fact that he's barking?

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Can I get a Cliff Notes on this psych guy?

He's an HIV+ robot that passed the Turing test, whose parents institutionalized him in Europe. After escaping, he works as an anonymous scientist until he can save up money to become a full-time antipsychiatry activist.

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He's an HIV+ robot that passed the Turing test, whose parents institutionalized him in Europe. After escaping, he works as an anonymous scientist until he saves up money to become a full-time antipsychiatry activist.

Except for the fact that I am HIV negative, that probably I am not a robot -although you never know!-, and that I just learned that you guys are a bunch of lunatics that enjoy hazing new comers and each other, the rest is pretty much accurate :).

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He's an HIV+ robot that passed the Turing test, whose parents institutionalized him in Europe. After escaping, he works as an anonymous scientist until he saves up money to become a full-time antipsychiatry activist.

At this point, I think he's a human who wouldn't be able to pass the Turing test. :)

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Except for the fact that I am HIV negative, that probably I am not a robot -although you never know!-, and that I just learned that you guys are a bunch of lunatics that enjoy hazing new comers and each other, the rest is pretty much accurate :).

Dear God... have you been sitting here pushing F5, just waiting for someone to reply?

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Unless BCH agrees that Justina does have mito and thinks she also has somatoform, their diagnosis is absolutely in question, because a renowned metabolic specialist does think she has mito. It might not be that big a deal for a healthy person, but that is not necessarily the case for someone who is already in a weakened state.

 

For those who claim that supporting the parents/sisters/Tufts position requires that one thinks there is a conspiracy among BCH/DCF/the judge, the alternative is assuming a conspiracy among the parents, all three siblings, Dr. Korson and the surgeons who operated on her, Justina's Connecticut psychologist, and the psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow. DCF does rely on BCH for their "medical expertise," so it is by no means an independent body. The judge was embarrassed by the negative publicity, especially concerning his gag order.

 

In spite of the fact that Children's is well known for the quality of some areas, such as cardiac surgery, I have been unable, even after a great deal of research, to find any indication that their psychiatry department is anything special. For pediatric psychiatry, by far the most well known facility in eastern Mass is McLean Hospital, with Franciscans probably coming in second.

I think the biopsy should be performed, but we have no idea if this has been discussed outside the public record. Most people who get muscle biopsies aren't healthy, and the neuropathic pain experienced by those with mitochondrial disease wouldn't necessarily be exacerbated by the procedure.

 

I tend to believe BCH because of the extremely high threshold one would have to exceed to pursue a diagnosis of medical child abuse. And the conflicts/secondary gain of most of those who refute MCA. The presence of more well known psychiatric facilities is irrelevant.

 

I trust the courts will hash this out. Whichever "side" loses should be charged with medical malpractice at the minimum.

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Hey psych...

 

If you want to get a better idea of the board history here... You should scroll down to the bottom of the page, where it says "change theme". Click on that and change it... it will take you to a bunch of really cool old threads. That way you can get to know us a little better.

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Hey psych...

 

If you want to get a better idea of the board history here... You should scroll down to the bottom of the page, where it says "change theme". Click on that and change it... it will take you to a bunch of really cool old threads. That way you can get to know us a little better.

That's how we first met :wub:

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Except I am a pretty sane person :).

 

As I said, my commitment happened in a European country where people are committed very easily. So I haven't experienced what a civil commitment in a genuine American madhouse is like, although it seems I got a taste with you and the other "girls" :).

 

You keep using the word girls as an insult. If you're going to fit in on the bored, the correct insult is "faigs".

 

HTH

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Except for the fact that I am HIV negative, that probably I am not a robot -although you never know!-, and that I just learned that you guys are a bunch of lunatics that enjoy hazing new comers and each other, the rest is pretty much accurate :).

 

This is the first correct thing you've said in this entire abortion of a thread.

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I think the biopsy should be performed, but we have no idea if this has been discussed outside the public record. Most people who get muscle biopsies aren't healthy, and the neuropathic pain experienced by those with mitochondrial disease wouldn't necessarily be exacerbated by the procedure.

 

I tend to believe BCH because of the extremely high threshold one would have to exceed to pursue a diagnosis of medical child abuse. And the conflicts/secondary gain of most of those who refute MCA. The presence of more well known psychiatric facilities is irrelevant.

 

I trust the courts will hash this out. Whichever "side" loses should be charged with medical malpractice at the minimum.

I think you are very wrong about there being an extremely high threshold for a diagnosis of medical child abuse. I have read of so many instances of parents of children with rare diseases being accused of medical child abuse. At least one medical school source included "being overly anxious about a child's illness" under the far reaching umbrella of medical child abuse - even when the child had a confirmed medical diagnosis. How anxious is "overly anxious?" How would a parent know precisely how anxious they are expected to be? If they are not anxious enough, then they run the risk of being accused of medical neglect.

 

Do you have a citation for your assertion that there is an extremely high threshold for this diagnosis? What about the conflicts of interest of those psychologists who see it everywhere? What about all those parents of autistic kids back when a lot of doctors believed in the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis? I am sure most of them refuted that - and they were probably ignored because they "had something to gain" - but yet, they were correct. Obviously anyone who has been accused has something to gain by refuting the diagnosis. Anyone who is a parent of minor children has the potential to have something to gain, since one's child could come down with a difficult-to-diagnose illness. I am just grateful that all my children are adults now.

 

I certainly hope that the appeal process vindicates this family, and I think it probably will if they can receive a hearing in federal court, but you obviously have far more trust in Massachusetts' judiciary and DCF than I do. I have lived in Mass almost all my life and know people who have had experience with the family court, with DCF as an employee or a client, with a number of the doctors at Children's and at Tufts. I am not anti-government - I have been a government employee for much of my life. I consider myself strongly liberal - but this is a human rights issue, not a political one.

 

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Is it possible that my diabolical plan worked? :unsure:

 

No sign of the whack-a-doodle so far!!!

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I think you are very wrong about there being an extremely high threshold for a diagnosis of medical child abuse. I have read of so many instances of parents of children with rare diseases being accused of medical child abuse. At least one medical school source included "being overly anxious about a child's illness" under the far reaching umbrella of medical child abuse - even when the child had a confirmed medical diagnosis. How anxious is "overly anxious?" How would a parent know precisely how anxious they are expected to be? If they are not anxious enough, then they run the risk of being accused of medical neglect.

 

Do you have a citation for your assertion that there is an extremely high threshold for this diagnosis? What about the conflicts of interest of those psychologists who see it everywhere? What about all those parents of autistic kids back when a lot of doctors believed in the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis? I am sure most of them refuted that - and they were probably ignored because they "had something to gain" - but yet, they were correct. Obviously anyone who has been accused has something to gain by refuting the diagnosis. Anyone who is a parent of minor children has the potential to have something to gain, since one's child could come down with a difficult-to-diagnose illness. I am just grateful that all my children are adults now.

 

I certainly hope that the appeal process vindicates this family, and I think it probably will if they can receive a hearing in federal court, but you obviously have far more trust in Massachusetts' judiciary and DCF than I do. I have lived in Mass almost all my life and know people who have had experience with the family court, with DCF as an employee or a client, with a number of the doctors at Children's and at Tufts. I am not anti-government - I have been a government employee for much of my life. I consider myself strongly liberal - but this is a human rights issue, not a political one.

 

There is no citation concerning the high threshold for inciting the diagnosis for MCA, nor is there one implying it is overdiagnosed. The single link complaining about Mass DCF notes 5 cases of MCA which were reviewed, 4 of which were upheld by the courts. I think the emotional nature of taking one's child promotes a level of media scrutiny which magnifies the problem, and this is probably a good thing in the rare cases where the medical community oversteps their bounds. Misdiagnosis of rare diseases (usually for other medical diagnoses) is likely far more common, but standard medical training insists all physical causes be excluded before psychiatric ones are considered - they are diagnoses of exclusion everywhere, including Mass.

 

For the umpteenth + 1 time, it wasn't a psychiatrist who started down this path. It was a neurology resident I believe, whose impression would need to be confirmed by an attending physician before psychiatry would even be consulted. What would motivate this initial suspicion???? Not an incestuous relationship between mental health professionals, the DCF and Mass courts. But we don't have these critical details.

 

I also think the excuses for no muscle biopsy are poor. Pain is a potential complication of the procedure, but it is rare and manageable.

 

I am not dismissing your scenario altogether, just acknowledging a more probable one in my professional opinion. The longer this drags on the less likely your alternative is correct. We are all just making our best guess at this point, but I appreciate you civility in acknowledging differing opinions. We both want the truth to prevail and Justina to live her life happily.

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I certainly hope that the appeal process vindicates this family, and I think it probably will if they can receive a hearing in federal court, but you obviously have far more trust in Massachusetts' judiciary and DCF than I do. I have lived in Mass almost all my life and know people who have had experience with the family court, with DCF as an employee or a client, with a number of the doctors at Children's and at Tufts. I am not anti-government - I have been a government employee for much of my life. I consider myself strongly liberal - but this is a human rights issue, not a political one.

 

Back to the serious stuff for a moment, I agree that this issue, and the general anti psychiatry struggle, are very much politics agnostic. While it might be true that a majority of supporters of Justina are conservatives (although I have communicated with many others who are liberals like you), the opposition to the Tim Murphy bill comes mostly from liberals (with a minority of conservatives like yours truly, opposing it as well),

 

http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/04/mental-health-social-justice-issue/

 

And there is more. Now the NRA seems to realizing that blaming gun violence on "mental health issues" wasn't such a great idea after all,

 

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2014/3/colorado-oppose-misguided-mental-health-legislation.aspx

 

The notion of having self appointed, unaccountable mind guardians with their parallel system of social control is something that alarms anybody who believes in freedom regardless of any other political consideration.

 

Now the majority of psychiatrists are left leaning (which is probably why the NRA has backpedaled) but in the future the situation might be the opposite (imagine an APA populated mostly by people like a-hole Tim Murphy).

 

The only legitimate system of social control is the criminal justice system, period. And that unites people from both right and left :).

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Is it possible that my diabolical plan worked? :unsure:

No sign of the whack-a-doodle so far!!!

Actually it didn't. I am interested in knowing whether somebody here has seen your small boobs :).

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Actually it didn't. I am interested in knowing whether somebody here has seen your small boobs :).

Ask to see if you can visit with her in the hallway.

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Actually it didn't. I am interested in knowing whether somebody here has seen your small boobs :).

I told you... the answer is at the bottom of the page. Go down and switch your theme. It will take you to a previous version of this board, where there are a bunch of "get to know you" type of threads.

 

There's a ton of great info in there...

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We both want the truth to prevail and Justina to live her life happily.

Actually you don't. You want to believe that BCH is right -and you are rooting for them to prevail whatever it takes- because otherwise your worldview would be seriously threatened. The notion that because the judge is kicking the can down the road it means that you are probably right is complete baloney.

 

Take the unconstitutional gag order. It lasted as long as the coward judge understood that the extra scrutiny was painting him in a bad light. Sunlight made it go away not its unconstitutional nature. Had it not been because Lou violated it, the gag order would still be in place. If you had actually read the leaked opinion there is nothing there to justify the judge's actions other than his own desire that by kicking the can further down the road people will forget. Well, we will NOT forget.

 

With respect that you want Justina to live her life happily, you are absolutely pathetic.

 

After 14 months of brainwashing by BCH psychiatrists and limited contact with her family, Justina has made it clear in no uncertain terms that she wants to go home now, period. You can watch the video by yourself. She has also accused the hospital of abusing her in a secret message to her parents.

 

Since you are a pathetic old fart who believes that BCH doctors are gods, of course you are siding with the notion that gods know better than Justina what's best for her. Again, it says more about your own worldview than about what's best for Justina :).

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