Justina Pelletier

[OldMaid 1,838]

How's not being crazy working out for you?

 

[psychsurvivor 2]

OMG... You've got to be kidding, right?!?!?!? That's the insult? I'd be laughing my ass off, but somehow I think you're ACTUALLY SERIOUS!

 

I do think that's disrespectful. Remember, we are talking intellectual arguments here, not "middle school aged girls" stuff . It seems to me you haven't met many highly brainy people in your life -pen obviously doesn't make the cut-. I should have understood that the first time I was attacked, but that's a different matter. I usually interact with other highly smart people; I forgot about how middle school aged girls behave, but that's a different matter .

[psychsurvivor 2]

You should take your ball and go home. Oh wait... You can't because you're locked up in a mental ward.

I understand that you read "Lord of The Flies", but you got the wrong lesson. The moral of the novel was that when things come down to the world of "middle school aged girls", the situation is toxic, not something that should be sought after.

 

Continuing to insult me with the idea that I am locked up is not helping your case, really .

[OldMaid 1,838]

I'll take "middle aged school girl" and " useful idiot" over what you are, any day. You've proven to be of no use to anyone. Your parents gave up on you.. And then your wife...

 

It must suck not having anyone who loves you enough to make sure you get the help that you need. You have my deepest condolences.

 

And you're really not that smart... double

[IGotWorms 3,326]

You know, you guys could stop responding to him

[OldMaid 1,838]

You know, you guys could stop responding to him

We tried... he kept inserting himself into the conversion.

 

Plus... at this point it's hilarious to see what irrational thing he'll say next. If we keep going, he's bound to threaten to fly somewhere and threaten to grind someone's face into the cement until he sees bone.

[drobeski 3,061]

This Psych guy has had a bad experience with abuse by the psychiatric community and has done extensive research on abuse in the system.

 

 

Penultimate revealed he has the ability to diagnose people from thousands of miles away. He diagnosed the parents as crazy because they want their daughter back, and chose to accept the recommendation of the Dr that has been treating her over the guy at BCH.

 

He also diagnosed the sister with all kinds of syndromes and afflictions off a quote in an article where she said their home was a loving home.

 

Newbie and his crew of girls predictably have attacked the new guy with middle school insults and offered nothing of value.

 

Repeat for however many pages this thing is....

pretty much sums it up

[drobeski 3,061]

You know, you guys could stop responding to him

sadly they cant, yet he's the mental case

[OldMaid 1,838]

sadly the cant, yet he's the mental case

[psychsurvivor 2]

I'll take "middle aged school girl" and " useful idiot" over what you are, any day. You've proven to be of no use to anyone. Your parents gave up on you.. And then your wife...

It must suck not having anyone who loves you enough to make sure you get the help that you need. You have my deepest condolences.

And you're really not that smart... double

. As always, expert on "appeal to pity", "middle school girl" type of arguments but empty on logic and science.

 

I thank God every day that I disowned my ex-parents (you got that part of the story wrong; they locked me up against my will, true, but I am the one who sent them to hell; after repeated attempts of contact on their side, I told them that they either stopped or that I would file an FBI report accusing them of harassment of a US citizen). They have never called back or attempted to contact me through electronic means . In fact, since this happened several years ago, for all that I know, one or both of them might be dead already.

 

As I have said numerous times, I truly feel for your mother. She might have been able to lead a productive life without any sort of drugging with brain shrinking drugs (based on the results of the study that Tom Insel discussed) but instead you chose to bully her with "chemical imbalances" and psychotropic drugs. I don't know you or your mother, but I do know the effect that taking neuroleptics long term has on people. I bet your mom is one of those fat, absent minded, and disconnected people that long term use of neuroleptics regularly produces. In fact, the statistics say that she will die 25 years earlier than the average member of society because of neuroleptics.

 

So to have love like yours, I say thanks, but no thanks. I enjoy my life in freedom and I am using every single tool at my disposal that comes with my US citizenship to keep my ex family -which are every bit as toxic as you are- at bay .

[psychsurvivor 2]

sadly the cant, yet he's the mental case

I get the typo: "they can't".

 

That is one of the biggest ironies here, isn't it ?

[OldMaid 1,838]

That's exactly what I'd expect someone who is unloved would say. A lot of excuses of what's wrong about the people who don't love them.

 

I'm guessing no one came to see you today on Visitor's day.

[crackattack 513]

I'll take "middle aged school girl" and " useful idiot" over what you are, any day. You've proven to be of no use to anyone. Your parents gave up on you.. And then your wife...

 

It must suck not having anyone who loves you enough to make sure you get the help that you need. You have my deepest condolences.

 

And you're really not that smart... double

Good stuff right here. He was put away against his will by his family, wife left, so now he has an ax to grind. I see a scary movie plot/script in this somewhere.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I'll take "middle aged school girl" and " useful idiot" over what you are, any day. You've proven to be of no use to anyone. Your parents gave up on you.. And then your wife...

 

It must suck not having anyone who loves you enough to make sure you get the help that you need. You have my deepest condolences.

 

And you're really not that smart... double

At least "useful idiots" are useful. Let's move on and take some selfies!

 

Does this post make my butt look fat?

[OldMaid 1,838]

At least "useful idiots" are useful. Let's move on and take some selfies!

 

Does this post make my butt look fat?

[psychsurvivor 2]

That's exactly what I'd expect someone who is unloved would say. A lot of excuses of what's wrong about the people who don't love them.

I'm guessing no one came to see you today on Visitor's day.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that forcing your mother on neuroleptics is an "act of love", really? You say that with a straight face?

 

If instead of spewing your middle school nonsense, you'd had read the numerous references that I have provided about the demonstrated bad side effects of neuroleptics -including brain shrinkage-, the fact that they cut people's lives 25 years on average and the fact that demonstrably people who feel loved and supported by their family and friends do recover from extreme mental states that the APA nuts call "schizophrenia", you'd be less convinced that yours is an act of love. Eleanor Longden said that she was happy with her voices and that her biggest mistake was to tell a psychiatrist about them. She only recovered after she sent the psychiatrist to hell as well (and for the record, in a later interview she said that she heard voices while she was delivering her TED talk ).

 

Maybe you did read all that, and you are still convinced that what you did to your mom was the right thing to do, in which case the only way I would describe what you yourself acknowledged to have done to her is an "act of hate" . Take this from somebody who values his freedom over love like yours .

[psychsurvivor 2]

At least "useful idiots" are useful. Let's move on and take some selfies!

 

Does this post make my butt look fat?

Oh boy, the old fart is back. Still thinking that you are not old at 60 or 70 ?

[OldMaid 1,838]

Let me ask you this. Do you think that forcing your mother on neuroleptics is an "act of love", really? You say that with a straight face?

If instead of spewing your middle school nonsense, you'd had read the numerous references that I have provided about the demonstrate bad side effects of neuroleptics -including brain shrinkage-, the fact that they cut people's lives 25 years on average and the fact that demonstrably people who feel loved and supported by their family and friends do recover from extreme mental states that the APA nuts call "schizophrenia", you'd be less convinced that yours is an act of love. Eleanor Longden said that she was happy with her voices and that her biggest mistake was to tell a psychiatrist about them. She only recovered after she sent the psychiatrist to hell as well (and for the record, in a later interview she said that she heard voices while she was delivering her TED talk ).

Maybe you did read all that, and you are still convinced that what you did to your mom was the right thing to do, in which case the only way I would describe what you yourself acknowledged to have done to her is an "act of hate" . Take this from somebody who values his freedom over love like yours .

And... this right here is why no one will ever love you.

[psychsurvivor 2]

And... this right here is why no one will ever love you.

And as I said, what you call "love" is what I call "hate".

 

Have you ever considered that you might be the result of a dysfunctional family ? There is a rich literature on the topic (wikipedia provides some good summary here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysfunctional_family ) that dysfunctional families have the sense of right/wrong reversed, so that what a non dysfunctional person would call "abuse" (like locking up somebody against his/her will or forcing somebody onto drugs against his/her will), a member of a dysfunctional family sees it as a "necessary act of love". That's how dysfunctional families rationalize their dysfunctional ways .

 

Yes, for the record, my ex-family was highly dysfunctional. Except for sexual abuse and substance abuse by my ex-parents, every other characteristic was present in my upbringing, including, not surprisingly, me being scapegoated for their dysfunction. My locking up was their final insult .

 

My ex wife thing was different, she was just scared away by the psychs and NAMI.

[OldMaid 1,838]

Have you ever considered you're really insane?

 

Ok... since I'm not an unloved whack job in a padded room, I've got things to do on a Sat. night.

 

Enjoy sitting alone and conversing with the voices in your head.

 

[jerryskids 5,215]

The problem is the diagnosis is still in question, as nobody has pushed to perform one of the most useful diagnostic tests to confirm or refute his suspicion (perhaps because non-invasive tests do not support it)

So since I haven't been following this case until I got a 5 minute summary from my wife after seeing this ginormous thread... why do they not perform this test? Seems like it would answer the question

[psychsurvivor 2]

Have you ever considered you're really insane?

Ok... since I'm not an unloved whack job in a padded room, I've got things to do on a Sat. night.

Enjoy sitting alone and conversing with the voices in your head.

Hahaha, I think I have hit you where it hurts .

 

Your posts have all the traits of somebody who is the result of a dysfunctional upbringing. I bet you see what you did to your mother as some kind of "revenge" for what you feel she did to you while you were growing up. Let me tell you that your reaction is highly immature. You should have taken the high road and live your own life independently, as I have done. Learning from people who were brought up by non dysfunctional parents would be a great first step .

[psychsurvivor 2]

So since I haven't been following this case until I got a 5 minute summary from my wife after seeing this ginormous thread... why do they not perform this test? Seems like it would answer the question

The short answer is that the BCH quacks that called DCF blocked that.

 

The guidelines they gave to Justina's parents explicitly stated that all further, non psychological diagnostic tests were to be excluded. Not only they didn't allow Justina's mito doctor at Tufts to be involved, they didn't even allow the gastroenterologist Justina went to see at BCH to be involved either.

 

This is how it goes with psychiatry, typically. Once a psychiatrist/psychologist is convinced that you are mad, there is no way to convince them otherwise (for the very reason that all psychiatric diagnoses are based on opinion not objective biological tests).

[drobeski 3,061]

I get the typo: "they can't".

 

That is one of the biggest ironies here, isn't it ?

hang around a while its just typical amazingly its always the same group, surprisingly they are all supporters of big government, so its just natural for them to blindly suport a hack org like the mass dcf, speaking of it looks like they just found the body of a 5 yr old boy the dept lost some months back.

[penultimatestraw 473]

So since I haven't been following this case until I got a 5 minute summary from my wife after seeing this ginormous thread... why do they not perform this test? Seems like it would answer the question

That's one of the things I've been advocating. A few possibilities IMO:

 

1. The diagnosis was so obvious they felt pathologic confirmation was unnecessary. If she had specific characteristics of the disease which one would rarely see otherwise, this might be the case. Problem is, the symptoms of mitochondrial disease are generally nonspecific. Now the fact that her sister also has a mitochondrial disorder would increase the chances of her having it, as we inherit our mitochondrial DNA maternally. But mitochondrial disease can also occur sporadically as well, possibly due to environmental exposures. It would be interesting to know if her sister had a biopsy.

 

2. Muscle biopsy can be painful. This doesn't really hold water as the Tufts doctors were willing to perform other painful procedures on her with appropriate anesthesia.

 

3. A non-invasive test was suggestive. There are gene tests which would confirm the diagnosis. But the admitting doc who raised the suspicion of medical child abuse surely would have asked for record of such testing, or perform it if available at BCH. One of the linked articles states that less specific blood testing (amino acid levels IIRC) was not suggestive of mitochondrial disease.

 

4. She could have both a mitochondrial disorder and suffer medical child abuse. This is a bigger stretch I think, and would really require a huge burden of proof that her parents are nutty. But some of BCH's actions (leaving her on vitamins and antioxidant cocktail) suggest this may be their position.

 

What BCH stipulated after she was hospitalized has no bearing on how her "mitochondrial disorder" was diagnosed in the first place...

[psychsurvivor 2]

hang around a while its just typical amazingly its always the same group, surprisingly they are all supporters of big government, so its just natural for them to blindly suport a hack org like the mass dcf, speaking of it looks like they just found the body of a 5 yr old boy the dept lost some months back.

I would have no problem if these people, like the old fart, had said at the beginning of the thread something like "we believe government has a prerogative over parents to make medical decisions on their children and to impose those decisions through the coercive force of government if necessary". It is a stance that is contrary to our constitution and Massachusetts' own laws but it is at least a stance that has merit intellectually speaking.

 

Instead, they have come up with increasingly nonsensical explanations and mental gymnastics about BCH doctors having "magic powers"; they also claim that these doctors are so immaculate and god-like that they would never, ever would do anything wrong, so if they say that Justina was abused by her parents, then it must be true, regardless of any other consideration including Justina's own opinion that she wants to go home with her parents (something that she also made clear back in December as reported by the Boston Globe). They also add some insults here and there as if insulting and reasoning were the same thing .

[jerryskids 5,215]

That's one of the things I've been advocating. A few possibilities IMO:

 

1. The diagnosis was so obvious they felt pathologic confirmation was unnecessary. If she had specific characteristics of the disease which one would rarely see otherwise, this might be the case. Problem is, the symptoms of mitochondrial disease are generally nonspecific. Now the fact that her sister also has a mitochondrial disorder would increase the chances of her having it, as we inherit our mitochondrial DNA maternally. But mitochondrial disease can also occur sporadically as well, possibly due to environmental exposures. It would be interesting to know if her sister had a biopsy.

 

2. Muscle biopsy can be painful. This doesn't really hold water as the Tufts doctors were willing to perform other painful procedures on her with appropriate anesthesia.

 

3. A non-invasive test was suggestive. There are gene tests which would confirm the diagnosis. But the admitting doc who raised the suspicion of medical child abuse surely would have asked for record of such testing, or perform it if available at BCH. One of the linked articles states that less specific blood testing (amino acid levels IIRC) was not suggestive of mitochondrial disease.

 

4. She could have both a mitochondrial disorder and suffer medical child abuse. This is a bigger stretch I think, and would really require a huge burden of proof that her parents are nutty. But some of BCH's actions (leaving her on vitamins and antioxidant cocktail) suggest this may be their position.

 

What BCH stipulated after she was hospitalized has no bearing on how her "mitochondrial disorder" was diagnosed in the first place...

Again, I haven't been following this, so maybe this is a "from the mouths of babes" comment, but... this smells like a pissing match between two medical facilities who have dug their heels in on differing positions. And yet there is a test that can shed light on it, albeit not necessarily definitively. Are the parents pushing for the test? The Tufts doctors? Why the fock isn't somebody insisting they run this focking test?

[OldMaid 1,838]

hang around a while its just typical amazingly its always the same group, surprisingly they are all supporters of big government, so its just natural for them to blindly suport a hack org like the mass dcf, speaking of it looks like they just found the body of a 5 yr old boy the dept lost some months back.

Jesus Drobs... You really will stick up for any one who is on the opposing side of an argument with someone you believe to have liberal beliefs.

 

This is the guy who is advocating that if you can't live with your crazy family member, you should disown them and throw them out into the streets.

 

Think about that...

[OldMaid 1,838]

Hit me where it hurts? Are you kidding?

 

I'm laughing at you... :lol:

 

I stopped trying to have an intellectual debate with you a LONG time ago. When it became clear that you are incapable of having one.

 

FeelingMN has repeatedly pointed out, that the Dr.'s that you hold in such high regard, are not exactly on the same page as you. And of course, we got :crickets: from you. You seem to ignore the fact that even they agree that some people need to be medicated-some even for life.

 

Of course, all of this is normal behavior for a crazy person.

 

I really, really do feel sorry for you. Truly and sincerely.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Again, I haven't been following this, so maybe this is a "from the mouths of babes" comment, but... this smells like a pissing match between two medical facilities who have dug their heels in on differing positions. And yet there is a test that can shed light on it, albeit not necessarily definitively. Are the parents pushing for the test? The Tufts doctors? Why the fock isn't somebody insisting they run this focking test?

I haven't read that anyone is pushing for the test, on either side of the issue. Makes no sense to me.

 

While two medical facilities digging in their heels is a posssibility, I think it is more likely we aren't privy to the whole story regarding behavior which prompted the diagnosis of medical child abuse in the first place. Remember this has been going on for over a year and reviewed by the Mass courts, who have thus far sided with BCH.

 

If you want to join the side that thinks the courts and BCH are all in collusion to effectively imprison this poor girl, more power to you. Just realize the evidence which prompted BCH's actions can't be revealed by the BCH docs, lest they violate HIPAA. Meanwhile, the parents can make as many emotional appeals to the public as they want.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Jesus Drobs... You really will stick up for any one who is on the opposing side of an argument with someone you believe to have liberal beliefs.

 

This is the guy who is advocating that if you can't live with your crazy family member, you should disown them and throw them out into the streets.

 

Think about that...

It is pretty sad. I hope he is joking. Drobeski, I mean, as I think psychsurvivor really believes all the venom he spews.

[Sho Nuff 719]

hang around a while its just typical amazingly its always the same group, surprisingly they are all supporters of big government, so its just natural for them to blindly suport a hack org like the mass dcf, speaking of it looks like they just found the body of a 5 yr old boy the dept lost some months back.

A. Where am I or pen or OM supporters of big government?

B. Where did anyone blindly support mass dcf?

Typical drobs making this discussion completely polititical and proving thatit us you who is the blind gack yet again.

[Sho Nuff 719]

I would have no problem if these people, like the old fart, had said at the beginning of the thread something like "we believe government has a prerogative over parents to make medical decisions on their children and to impose those decisions through the coercive force of government if necessary". It is a stance that is contrary to our constitution and Massachusetts' own laws but it is at least a stance that has merit intellectually speaking.

 

Instead, they have come up with increasingly nonsensical explanations and mental gymnastics about BCH doctors having "magic powers"; they also claim that these doctors are so immaculate and god-like that they would never, ever would do anything wrong, so if they say that Justina was abused by her parents, then it must be true, regardless of any other consideration including Justina's own opinion that she wants to go home with her parents (something that she also made clear back in December as reported by the Boston Globe). They also add some insults here and there as if insulting and reasoning were the same thing .

HOw many more times are you going to try these lies?

I get that they fool people like gp and drobs...but its funny watching you flail away.

[penultimatestraw 473]

To be fair... we did indeed start with the insults first. Of course that was after we found out how crazy he really was and there was no reasoning with him. But he threw the first punch with Pen and Pen even asked him to stop.

 

Correct. He insulted me first with no provocation:

Either you don't know enough psychiatrists/psychologists or you are still blinded by your own bias as "professional".

 

Unless one thinks mocking one's professional expertise is complimentary?

[drobeski 3,061]

Happy easter mean girls god bless

[IGotWorms 3,326]

Again, I haven't been following this, so maybe this is a "from the mouths of babes" comment, but... this smells like a pissing match between two medical facilities who have dug their heels in on differing positions. And yet there is a test that can shed light on it, albeit not necessarily definitively. Are the parents pushing for the test? The Tufts doctors? Why the fock isn't somebody insisting they run this focking test?

Not sure you're aware of this jerry, but patient records are confidential. HIPAA and all that

[jerryskids 5,215]

I haven't read that anyone is pushing for the test, on either side of the issue. Makes no sense to me.

 

While two medical facilities digging in their heels is a posssibility, I think it is more likely we aren't privy to the whole story regarding behavior which prompted the diagnosis of medical child abuse in the first place. Remember this has been going on for over a year and reviewed by the Mass courts, who have thus far sided with BCH.

 

If you want to join the side that thinks the courts and BCH are all in collusion to effectively imprison this poor girl, more power to you. Just realize the evidence which prompted BCH's actions can't be revealed by the BCH docs, lest they violate HIPAA. Meanwhile, the parents can make as many emotional appeals to the public as they want.

I don't want to join a side, at least yet. Clearly there are a lot of layers to this onion. To the bolded part, I offered a partial solution to why it hasn't been run -- ginormous egos on both sides who are afraid that their positions might be compromised by the results of the test. I know, I know, doctors aren't supposed to operate that way.

 

Not sure you're aware of this jerry, but patient records are confidential. HIPAA and all that

I don't understand this comment. I've seen HIPAA used as reasoning that we haven't learned all of the reasons BCH did what they did. Are you saying that they may have run the test and we don't know? If not, I think you are presuming I'm taking some side here, because I just asked why they didn't run the test.

 

But since we've brought up HIPAA: the girl is 15, right? Which means her parents control her HIPAA rights. Or has MASS removed those parental rights and taken them over?

[IGotWorms 3,326]

I don't want to join a side, at least yet. Clearly there are a lot of layers to this onion. To the bolded part, I offered a partial solution to why it hasn't been run -- ginormous egos on both sides who are afraid that their positions might be compromised by the results of the test. I know, I know, doctors aren't supposed to operate that way.

 

I don't understand this comment. I've seen HIPAA used as reasoning that we haven't learned all of the reasons BCH did what they did. Are you saying that they may have run the test and we don't know? If not, I think you are presuming I'm taking some side here, because I just asked why they didn't run the test.

 

But since we've brought up HIPAA: the girl is 15, right? Which means her parents control her HIPAA rights. Or has MASS removed those parental rights and taken them over?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Or there is some reason they haven't run that test and went with a different line of diagnosis.

 

As many of us have been saying from the start, the only version of the events you've heard is the parents'. The doctors can't call a press conference and talk about the details of this girl's care. They can't release the records to the public. The only thing we would've heard from the doctors is through the court system, and the courts would also refrain from making confidential patient information public record.

 

That's why I have to laugh a bit when people say "the judge didn't even have any reasoning for his/her decision!" I assure you that the judge did, but to discuss diagnosis and treatment in great length in a matter of public record would amount to a severe violation of the patient's privacy rights.

 

That's why we resolve these things in the legal system and not the court of public opinion. Certainly transparency would be great but I see no way to square that with the privacy rights of the minor patient

[penultimatestraw 473]

I don't want to join a side, at least yet. Clearly there are a lot of layers to this onion. To the bolded part, I offered a partial solution to why it hasn't been run -- ginormous egos on both sides who are afraid that their positions might be compromised by the results of the test. I know, I know, doctors aren't supposed to operate that way.

 

I don't understand this comment. I've seen HIPAA used as reasoning that we haven't learned all of the reasons BCH did what they did. Are you saying that they may have run the test and we don't know? If not, I think you are presuming I'm taking some side here, because I just asked why they didn't run the test.

 

But since we've brought up HIPAA: the girl is 15, right? Which means her parents control her HIPAA rights. Or has MASS removed those parental rights and taken them over?

I know you're being sarcastic, but the egos of the doctors probably played little role in the initial suspicion for medical child abuse. The usual protocol is to trust an obscure diagnosis made by a specialist, not question it as happened in this case. And nobody wants to take a child from their parents. The fact that the admitting physician started the evaluation for medical child abuse suggests something was terribly awry with her presentation and/or parents' behavior.

 

Once committed to the child abuse path, egos may stand in the way of re-considering the initial diagnosis, however. But the courts found enough evidence to remove custody indefinitely. Instead of invoking a larger conspiracy, why not consider another plausible position: the BCH docs are right?

 

And yeah, I bet there are many unreported things the BCH docs did to ensure their initial suspicion.

[psychsurvivor 2]

I stopped trying to have an intellectual debate with you a LONG time ago.

 

Hehehehe! Don't be shy, it shows that you were raised in a dysfunctional family, that's OK . I insist that the way you have reacted with your mother doesn't speak well of you. That your family was dysfunctional doesn't mean that you yourself have to be.

 

It is very funny that then you claim to have tried to have some intellectual discussion when your dismissed Tom Insel commentary that there is indeed a significant portion of people diagnosed with so called "schizophrenia" for which doing what you did to your mother prevents them from full recovery. You have also dismissed as genuine experiences like those who are part of the Voice Hearing Movement saying that nobody can be considered recovered if they hear voices. After expressing your narrow mindedness on this issue, you went on to repeat dogmatically NAMI talking points about "chemical imbalances" and the need to drug people against their will, never mind that the leaders of American psychiatry have abandoned the "chemical imbalance" model.

 

I guess that it is not surprising that somebody with the intellectual development of a "middle school girl" would think that that's "intellectual quality" .