Justina Pelletier

[psychsurvivor 2]

It was wrong for BCH to refuse to collaborate with Dr. Korson or Justina's other doctors at Tufts. It was wrong for BCH to exclude Dr. Flores, the gastroenterologist, from Justina's treatment team. It was wrong for BCH to refuse to allow Justina to be transferred to Tufts immediately, rather than to wait for over a year.

You are not going to convince the old fart pen. He is immune to reason and facts .

 

He only believes in his own dogmas: BCH doctors are gods, they answer to none except themselves. Constitutional law be damned: if a BCH doctor says that the pain is all in your head, then it is all in your head, period. If a BCH doctor says that you have been mistreated by your parents, then you have been mistreated by your parents, period.

 

Take it from Dr Joseph Biederman, Harvard affiliated, and research collaborator of Dr David DeMaso, the director of psychiatry at BCH,

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/20psych.html?_r=1&

 

In a contentious Feb. 26 deposition between Dr. Biederman and lawyers for the states, he was asked what rank he held at Harvard. “Full professor,” he answered.

 

“What’s after that?” asked a lawyer, Fletch Trammell.

 

“God,” Dr. Biederman responded.

 

“Did you say God?” Mr. Trammell asked.

 

“Yeah,” Dr. Biederman said.

 

[crackattack 520]

Actually, the appropriate reply from me should have been: "MY FATHER STORMED THE BEACH AT NORMANDY!#@!" But "Chopper...Sic Balls!" was the first one to pop into my head.

Good enough. You should've went with the goofy reference. He can't be a dog. He drives a car and wears a hat!

[rollinghills60 0]

I am not acquainted with psychsurvivor. I have seen his (her?) posts about Justina on at least one other site. I do not consider this topic at all obscure, and I ran across this site while googling recent updates on Justina. I did not know until I was about to register that it was a fantasy football site - I thought it had something to do with geeks.

 

As I said, I know someone with mito (who had a very bad experience with a muscle biopsy) and I have a fair amount of experience, both good and bad, with Children's Hospital.

 

I don't think it is true that no physician would make the decision to change the diagnosis and then take the child from her parents lightly. There are a lot of really arrogant physicians at Children's, and elsewhere as well, of course. I've heard physicians prescribe medication at twice the maximum dose recommended by the manufacturer, and then claim it was ok because "if one pill didn't get rid of your headache, wouldn't you take two?" (No, I wouldn't - especially if it were tylenol, since I would prefer not to destroy my liver). I've seen doctors and other medical professionals claim that a patient had injuries not supported by x-rays. I have seen information recorded on charts that was completely imaginary. Medical errors are made frequently. Not all doctors are careful or thorough. Some jump to conclusions.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

FeelingMN, I really like the angle and your overall veiwpoint about this topic.

 

Pyschiatry should be totally re-evaluated on how Dr's treat, laws around it, and how we as society view it. I think both you and this phsch dude agree there. I alos like the thought of there isn't a one size fits all, black or white issue, but a nuanced approach custom for each individual. Great thoughts there.

 

Obviously this physch dude has strong opinons that are on one end of the spectrum, and without trying to rehash this thread I'll try to tidy up in a paragraph or two where I do agree with his general premise (even if I won't go as far as he alludes).

 

To take away a persons freedom, whether that be for criminal trespasses or because somebody deems them crazy, it has to be beyond resonable doubt. There has to be a burdern of proof on those taking away that freedom or from that family. And it has to be overwhelming (beyond reasonable doubt). We have this in place for our criminal justice system the best we can. It seems in phschiatry however the standards are not as high, nor are the standard of controls put in place to limit mistakes. For a person to be taken against their free will due to A doctor or A hospital or A judge simplying saying so where there are official differing opinions and diagnosis (reasonable doubt) goes against this countries values. It just does. Unlike the physcsurvivor, I'm not saying doing so is never justified. I'm saying it HAS to be fully justified based on high standards and beyond any doubt.

 

I think even the most ardent detractors of this particular case can agree there is bunch of reasonable doubt this little girl may have been misdiagnosed and incorrectly taken as a result by the Hospital. When the question arises of taking a persons freedom away, we should always err on the side of caution is all I'm saying. From all I know and have read about this case that was not done, some folks are erroring on the side of themselves and covering their butts instead. And that does irk me.

Pretty good post, but I'm not sure why you believe the BCH docs didn't make their decision based on the best available evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. Should all committals be reviewed by our legal system?

[rollinghills60 0]

The first bolded statement was based on:

 

I was commenting on the negative press being predicated by the emotionally charged topic of removing a child from parental custody. The judge's inappropriate gag order (I'll take your word for it, as I have no idea) is irrelevant in determining Justina's underlying diagnosis.

 

The second bold statement is pretty self-explanatory. There are many variables at work here; the medications are only one. FWIW, she has remained on the main treatments for mitochondrial disease, of which there are very few that are scientifically validated. I was mocking the extreme viewpoints of some posters when I described the psychoactive meds which were discontinued.

I was referring to the negative press the judge received in regard to the gag order specifically. If there had been no gag order in place, Lou Pelletier would have been able to speak freely to the press long before he decided to do so in spite of the gag order. '

 

According to an article I read (maybe the Globe?) Justina was also on cardiac medications before she went to Children's.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Pretty good post, but I'm not sure why you believe the BCH docs didn't make their decision based on the best available evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. Should all committals be reviewed by our legal system?

The judge mentioned specifically in his reasoning "clear and convincing evidence". That the evidence presented even met that standard is under question.

 

Certainly, none of the information made public, including the judge's own reasoning, would have been enough to charge the parents with the crime of medical child abuse, where the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". In fact, in the same ruling where he says that HE has determined that Justina suffers from Somatic Symptom Disorder (because, HE IS GOD), HE is says that Justina should go back to Connecticut to, guess what, be close to HER FAMILY.

 

As I said, some random commenter in the Boston Globe said that a chimpanzee could have written a better ruling. I agree. This judge is a petty, small minded creature who deserves to have his career derailed as a result of his handling of this case.

[psychsurvivor 2]

I am not acquainted with psychsurvivor. I have seen his (her?) posts about Justina on at least one other site.

Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings, I am a "he" .

[penultimatestraw 473]

I am not acquainted with psychsurvivor. I have seen his (her?) posts about Justina on at least one other site. I do not consider this topic at all obscure, and I ran across this site while googling recent updates on Justina. I did not know until I was about to register that it was a fantasy football site - I thought it had something to do with geeks.

 

As I said, I know someone with mito (who had a very bad experience with a muscle biopsy) and I have a fair amount of experience, both good and bad, with Children's Hospital.

 

I don't think it is true that no physician would make the decision to change the diagnosis and then take the child from her parents lightly. There are a lot of really arrogant physicians at Children's, and elsewhere as well, of course. I've heard physicians prescribe medication at twice the maximum dose recommended by the manufacturer, and then claim it was ok because "if one pill didn't get rid of your headache, wouldn't you take two?" (No, I wouldn't - especially if it were tylenol, since I would prefer not to destroy my liver). I've seen doctors and other medical professionals claim that a patient had injuries not supported by x-rays. I have seen information recorded on charts that was completely imaginary. Medical errors are made frequently. Not all doctors are careful or thorough. Some jump to conclusions.

I apologize for my earlier assumptions. What term(s) did you enter into what search engine, as psych also found us that way?

 

I, too, have seen doctors make mistakes. And be arrogant and dogmatic. And prescribe doses of meds which exceed those recommended by the FDA. None of those actions are defensible. But I believe the decision to remove parental custody would be taken with such gravity that a mistake is much less likely. Moreover, I think it would be corrected/punished quickly, not a year+ later.

 

That is my opinion. If we find out otherwise, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I was referring to the negative press the judge received in regard to the gag order specifically. If there had been no gag order in place, Lou Pelletier would have been able to speak freely to the press long before he decided to do so in spite of the gag order. '

 

According to an article I read (maybe the Globe?) Justina was also on cardiac medications before she went to Children's.

Yeah, she was on a beta blocker. It would be easy to document whether holding this med resulted in adverse consequences, though not being able to walk wouldn't be one of them.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Moreover, I think it would be corrected/punished quickly, not a year+ later.

That is my opinion.

Opinion based on "blind faith" in juvenile courts in Boston -which are rubber stampers of whatever BCH doctors recommend-. This blind faith doesn't square very well with other statements that you agree that these decisions should be taken under the high standard "beyond reasonable doubt" something that DID NOT HAPPEN HERE per the judge's own ruling.

 

You are just and old fart who apparently has been lecturing a lot of scientifically illiterate people in the past and are unable to defend your nonsense when your dogmas are minimally challenged other than by saying "because old fart penultimatestraw says so" .

[psychsurvivor 2]

For the old fart, testimony posted as a response to one of Beau Berman's FB postings - Beau is the journalist that first covered the story for FOX CT,

 

https://www.facebook.com/BeauBermanFOXCT/posts/591126074316749?comment_id=3223219&offset=0&total_comments=9

 

My then 16 yr old daughter as a patient at Children's Hospital in May of 2011. She had Lyme disease and, we eventually found out, an amplified musculoskeletal pain syndrome (AMPS). The drs, including a neurologist, infectious disease specialist and a psychiatrist, told us she had conversion disorder and needed to be treated in a psych hospital. They were adamant and we felt threatened so we got her out of there ASAP. It was Memorial Day weekend so we were able to convince the resident on call that we were going to bring her back to CT and have her admitted to a psych hospital. Thankfully they fell for it, but we didn't breath until we were off the hospital property. We pursued diagnosis at Columbia in NYC. That lead us to Dr Sherry at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Our daughter is now 19 and completely healthy. Ironically, Boston Chikdren's has an outpatient program for AMPS. Our prayers are with the Pelletier family.

 

In the old fart's idyllic world these things are not possible .

[rollinghills60 0]

I apologize for my earlier assumptions. What term(s) did you enter into what search engine, as psych also found us that way?

 

I, too, have seen doctors make mistakes. And be arrogant and dogmatic. And prescribe doses of meds which exceed those recommended by the FDA. None of those actions are defensible. But I believe the decision to remove parental custody would be taken with such gravity that a mistake is much less likely. Moreover, I think it would be corrected/punished quickly, not a year+ later.

 

That is my opinion. If we find out otherwise, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

I found this site when I googled her name and limited the search to the last 24 hours - I think it was on page 2.

 

It's not surprising that Justina is worse. Being locked in a psychiatric ward, or Wayside, away from your parents is terribly stressful, and stress can make mito worse.

 

In my experience, Children's is more likely to discount pain than other hospitals with which I have experience do - both the pediatrics department of another teaching hospital, and in a couple of smaller hospitals (where they kept trying to convince me to accept unwanted pain meds during and after labor and delivery).

[penultimatestraw 473]

I found this site when I googled her name and limited the search to the last 24 hours - I think it was on page 2.

 

It's not surprising that Justina is worse. Being locked in a psychiatric ward, or Wayside, away from your parents is terribly stressful, and stress can make mito worse.

 

In my experience, Children's is more likely to discount pain than other hospitals with which I have experience do - both the pediatrics department of another teaching hospital, and in a couple of smaller hospitals (where they kept trying to convince me to accept unwanted pain meds during and after labor and delivery).

Stress will make many conditions worse. And even under the best conditions, a psych ward isn't exactly comforting. The challenge is determining whether Justina risks more under the care of her parents. I know the competitive skater confined now to a wheelchair argument, but that doesn't allow for the passage of time changing her underlying condition.

 

Doctors aren't trained to discount pain - it was made the "fifth vital sign" a few years back. We are taught to exclude all alternative diagnoses before thinking about psych ones.

[rollinghills60 0]

Maybe you were taught to exclude all alternative diagnoses first, but that doesn't mean that all doctors do so. That has not been my experience at Children's even when there is an obvious physical injury such as a broken bone, it has not been the experience of a couple of my acquaintances with a relatively rare disease/botched sterilization. I was shocked that their attitude was so completely the opposite of my very recent experience at another hospital, where apparently the doctors did listen to their professors in medical school.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Very well said. Do not expect an intelligent rebuttal from the sage in residence, old fart penultimatestraw. He expressed his views very clearly: BCH doctors are immaculate gods who cannot do any wrong and so is incompetent judge Johnston .

 

He has never said what you just claim he said "clearly".

For as smart as you kept telling us you are...you suck at reading comprehension and have resorted to little more than insults and personal attacks to go along with your copying and pasting

 

And the only ones who appear to be on the "one side is for sure right and everyone else is wrong" is you and now the other "new" guy.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

If this is Mike's attempt at recruiting, I definitely disapprove. We have enough whacko's that we don't need anymore.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

For a minute there

I lost myself

I lost myself

 

Phew for a minute there

I lost myself

I lost myself

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

He has never said what you just claim he said "clearly".

For as smart as you kept telling us you are...you suck at reading comprehension and have resorted to little more than insults and personal attacks to go along with your copying and pasting

 

And the only ones who appear to be on the "one side is for sure right and everyone else is wrong" is you and now the other "new" guy.

Psych obviously has issues. The new guy is OK so far, albeit jaundiced a bit when it comes to BCH, though psych started off that way too.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Maybe you were taught to exclude all alternative diagnoses first, but that doesn't mean that all doctors do so. That has not been my experience at Children's even when there is an obvious physical injury such as a broken bone, it has not been the experience of a couple of my acquaintances with a relatively rare disease/botched sterilization. I was shocked that their attitude was so completely the opposite of my very recent experience at another hospital, where apparently the doctors did listen to their professors in medical school.

How was the broken bone misdiagnosed?

[Sho Nuff 720]

Psych obviously has issues. The new guy is OK so far, albeit jaundiced a bit when it comes to BCH, though psych started off that way too.

 

Not sure much about the new guy yet.

Since he came right out and thought someone was arrogant for believing a doctor and courts right now.

At this point I have an open mind about him, but his first few posts show he likely also has a pretty strong bias against BCH for some reason in the past and buys into anything against them.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

Not sure much about the new guy yet.

Since he came right out and thought someone was arrogant for believing a doctor and courts right now.

At this point I have an open mind about him, but his first few posts show he likely also has a pretty strong bias against BCH for some reason in the past and buys into anything against them.

Yeah, it's a little odd to insult someone right off the bat. But this is the internet after all.

[crackattack 520]

Pen. Keep up the good work. I believe in what you guys do. I do believe it is an illness. Maybe we haven't found it yet scientifically, but medicine changes daily....almost. I've seen first hand what a quality doctor and proper medications can do. You're work and help to others is greatly appreciated.

 

Oldmaid. I think you did a wonderful thing for/with your mom. I understand the hard work and dedication it takes to try and help mentally ill people. Turning your back on her and leaving her to her own demise could've turned out deadly for your mom or worse, somebody else. I'm sickened by the notion of not helping those who truly need it. Congrats to you and keep up the good fight.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Psych obviously has issues. The new guy is OK so far, albeit jaundiced a bit when it comes to BCH, though psych started off that way too.

Sure I have issues! I have admitted to them myself:

 

- Guilty as charged of not having blind faith on old farts who have MD degrees .

 

- Guilty as charged of believing that psychiatry is a dangerous pseudoscience that should be avoided at all costs and that should be stripped of all its coercive powers, including having higher deference, as in the Justina case, over genuine biological diagnoses when it comes to making custody decisions. .

 

I would like to note that while I have elaborated in detail how I came to have the above convictions :

 

- My own experience.

 

- Studies that show that SSRIs are active placebos -using psychiatry's own measures of efficacy- that increase the risk of suicide on some people.

 

- Studies that show that neuroleptics prevent recovery for people diagnosed with so called "schizophrenia".

 

- Plenty of anecdotal evidence of individual people -like John Nash- whose recovery was possible only after rejecting psychiatry.

 

- Several legally proved cases -including one at Harvard- of so called "top psychiatrists" accepting bribes by pharmaceutical companies to promote both invented diseases and drugs for said diseases.

 

- Statements by the leaders of mainstream psychiatry criticizing the field for the above and also saying that none of the DSM labels has scientific validity.

 

...the old fart has only provided as reason to back his dogmas: "trust me, I have an MD degree".

 

People are smart enough to recognize who has real "issues", ie narcissism, here .

[psychsurvivor 2]

Pen. Keep up the good work. I believe in what you guys do. I do believe it is an illness. Maybe we haven't found it yet scientifically, but medicine changes daily....almost. I've seen first hand what a quality doctor and proper medications can do. You're work and help to others is greatly appreciated.

 

As long as they don't kill them, that is. http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals

 

"Now comes a of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher — between each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death.

 

That would make medical errors the , behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second."

 

Think about it, doctors' arrogance kills more people than AIDS!

 

Oldmaid. I think you did a wonderful thing for/with your mom. I understand the hard work and dedication it takes to try and help mentally ill people. Turning your back on her and leaving her to her own demise could've turned out deadly for your mom or worse, somebody else. I'm sickened by the notion of not helping those who truly need it. Congrats to you and keep up the good fight.

 

If I were Oldmaid I would seriously consider the question of whether she was brainwashed by NAMI for the detriment of her mother. The evidence is there that people diagnosed with so called "schizophrenia", even severe cases like John Nash's, do recover over time precisely because of refusing psychotropic drugs that are known to shrink the brain. If I were her I would ask myself whether her mom could have come out of whatever mental state she was going through the same way John Nash did: by having the support of people who never stopped seeing him as a human being. The mathematical community that supported Nash probably understands better than the average NAMI zealot that the demarcation between madness and normality is not as clear cut as the NAMI propagandists like Oldmaid proclaim.

[crackattack 520]

All I see is blah blah blah. Nowhere in my post did I say "hey nutjob dooshbag what's your opinion" but hey thanks for posting words I won't read. Outstanding work there psycho.

[psychsurvivor 2]

All I see is blah blah blah. Nowhere in my post did I say "hey nutjob dooshbag what's your opinion" but hey thanks for posting words I won't read. Outstanding work there psycho.

I report the facts, you decide whether you want to remain ignorant about them. There is nothing I can do if you have decided that you prefer to live in an alternate universe rather than in the universe of reason, facts and science .

[crackattack 520]

Blah blah blah I'm crazy blah blah blah I'm the ex crazy house inpatient blah blah blah I have an anti psychology agenda blah blah blah did I say I was an inpatient to a mental hospital. That sums it up for me.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Blah blah blah I'm crazy blah blah blah I'm the ex crazy house inpatient blah blah blah I have an anti psychology agenda blah blah blah did I say I was an inpatient to a mental hospital. That sums it up for me.

Because as I said, you have voluntarily chosen to ignore what Tom Insel (director of the NIMH), David Kupfer (chairman of the DSM-5 task force) or Allen Frances (chairman of the DSM-IV task force) have to say about the non validity of DSM labels. You have chosen to ignore the studies by Irving Kirsch and EH Turner that show that SSRIs are placebos, you have chosen to ignore the FDA black box warning that SSRIs increase the suicide risk in young people, you have chosen to ignore Tom Insel's discussion (and later APA new guidelines) on a study that shows that being on neuroleptics can be for some people a bar to full recovery, you have chosen to ignore the evidence that shows that neuroleptics shrink the brain.

 

Instead of accepting the above, you have chosen to continue to live in fantasy land and to call me names. Speaking of having issues... .

[crackattack 520]

Blah blah blah lots of other peoples words blah blah blah but I'm a scientist blah blah blah I have no opinion of my own blah blah blah I believe everything anti psychology blah blah blah have I mentioned I was a looney admitted against my will. Thats how crazy I am. I'm so crazy and was so destructive to others, they had to lock me up. To bad they didn't throw away the key.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Blah blah blah lots of other peoples words blah blah blah but I'm a scientist blah blah blah I have no opinion of my own blah blah blah I believe everything anti psychology blah blah blah have I mentioned I was a looney admitted against my will. Thats how crazy I am. I'm so crazy and was so destructive to others, they had to lock me up. To bad they didn't throw away the key.

What's truly tragic is that people like you are allowed to vote .

 

If there was ever a statement in which somebody openly proclaimed his love of dogma and "magical thinking" over facts, reason and science, this is it.

 

I remind you that "magical thinking" gets people killed. At the end of the day, you will have to face facts, reason and science. Don't expect me to show any tears for you if you become any of the hundreds of thousands of people that gets killed every year by medical errors in the US. In fact, as cynical as it might sound, don't expect any from Mr old fart pen either. He would see your possible death as collateral damage for the "good work" he and his pals do.

[OldMaid 2,134]

I absolutely love how he keeps trotting John Nash out like a show pony. Yes, it's an exceptional story... but the key word there is: EXCEPTION.

 

I saw the movie, and you have no idea how it tore me up inside. I can't tell you the amount of tears and heartache the situation with my mother brought me. I would have loved nothing more than for her to be able to cure herself. But sadly, it wasn't the case. She wasn't a John Nash... if fact, most people aren't. The guy had the mind of a mathematical genius. I have no doubt that it aided him in being able to distinguish between reality and his delusions.

 

It's kinda akin to treating addicts. Some people can do it on their own, and some can't.

[crackattack 520]

Blah blah blah same crazy talk blah blah blah I'm crazy blah blah blah I hear voices blah blah blah they call me norman bates blah blah blah I think my opinion matters blah blah blah what I post is law blah blah blah did I mention I'm certifiably crazy. Still sound about right?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

What's truly tragic is that people like you are allowed to vote .

This sounds like jealousy, Norman.

[psychsurvivor 2]

I absolutely love how he keeps trotting John Nash out like a show pony. Yes, it's an exceptional story... but the key word there is: EXCEPTION.

I saw the movie, and you have no idea how it tore me up inside. I can't tell you the amount of tears and heartache the situation with my mother brought me. I would have loved nothing more than for her to be able to cure herself. But sadly, it wasn't the case. She wasn't a John Nash... if fact, most people aren't. The guy had the mind of a mathematical genius. I have no doubt that it aided him in being able to distinguish between reality and his delusions.

It's kinda akin to treating addicts. Some people can do it on their own, and some can't.

Two things:

 

- The movie is a dramatized, and misleading, version of his life. By his own testimony John Nash did not take any psychotropic drugs since 1970. Also his now wife later regretted deeply having done to John Nash what you did to your mother. Her acceptance for who he was (she allowed him to live with her even though they led separate lives for 20 years) was also part of his recovery process. The movie gives you the impression that John Nash only recovered after buying the NAMI koolaid that you have spewed here, although the truth is just the opposite. The book and the American experience documentary are pretty clear about this.

 

- You seem immune to facts, reason and logic. I brought you this commentary by Tom Insel http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/antipsychotics-taking-the-long-view.shtml which deals with the results of a study that shows that people in the discontinuance group had better recovery rates than the people on the regime you have your mother under, and you even called Tom Insel names. That is how the mind of the zealot works. If you want to listen to the stories of individual ordinary people who recovered the John Nash way, here you have a few http://openparadigmproject.com/ .

 

Get over. When you are in a hole: stop digging, then start climbing. In your case, "stop digging" would be to stop listening to NAMI propaganda. "Start climbing" would be to read about facts, reason and science .

[OldMaid 2,134]

Two things:

- The movie is a dramatized, and misleading, version of his life. By his own testimony John Nash did not take any psychotropic drugs since 1970. Also his now wife later regretted deeply having done to John Nash what you did to your mother. Her acceptance for who he was (she allowed him to live with her even though they led separate lives for 20 years) was also part of his recovery process. The movie gives you the impression that John Nash only recovered after buying the NAMI koolaid that you have spewed here, although the truth is just the opposite. The book and the American experience documentary are pretty clear about this.

- You seem immune to facts, reason and logic. I brought you this commentary by Tom Insel http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/antipsychotics-taking-the-long-view.shtml which deals with the results of a study that shows that people in the discontinuance group had better recovery rates than the people on the regime you have your mother under, and you even called Tom Insel names. That is how the mind of the zealot works. If you want to listen to the stories of individual ordinary people who recovered the John Nash way, here you have a few http://openparadigmproject.com/ .

Get over. When you are in a hole: stop digging, then start climbing. In your case, "stop digging" would be to stop listening to NAMI propaganda. "Start climbing" would be to read about facts, reason and science .

You haven't brought sh!t and you know it. At least not in regards to my mother.

 

You know... I do think you had a few valid points... but too bad you buried it under all this over-the-top nonsense. People stop listening when you heap on a litte too much crazy and convienently overlook things that don't support your vision.

 

I would appreciate it if you stop replying to me. I would also be eternally grateful, if you would stop talking about my mother like you know better than me, on how to best treat her.

 

In lieu of that... please fock off!

[rollinghills60 0]

How was the broken bone misdiagnosed?

It was not that the broken bone was misdiagnosed as something else - but if you fall and land on a broken bone that has not yet completely healed, it is probably going to hurt. Broken bones can cause considerable discomfort even when you don't fall - yet several of the nursing staff at BCH made it clear that pain management, or even empathy, is not part of their repertoire. If it had been just one nurse, on one occasion, I would just think that she/he was a jerk - but it was several, on a couple of occasions.

 

If you have reached middle age, surely you know how many diagnoses and standard medical practices from not too long ago have been abandoned. It wasn't that long ago that Bettelheim convinced the medical establishment that autism was the fault of "refrigerator mothers." When I gave birth to my oldest child, they expected both my baby and me to share a room with someone who was smoking in the room (I refused). My child's pediatrician prescribed fluoride drops for her, even though our water was fluoridated. Every time my child's ear looked a little red at a routine checkup, he would prescribe antibiotics. He thought we were odd to not want him to give our child the live virus polio vaccine, but rather use the killed virus vaccination. All of these, with the exception of the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis, were still standard medical practice in the 80's, but none of them are today. Doctors are wrong frequently. Why do you assume that somatoform will even be considered a valid diagnosis in 10 or 20 years? Or that SSRI's will still be used? Remember Miltown? Mito will likely turn out to be secondary to other disease processes, probably at least several of them.

 

There are two competing diagnoses. Children's refused to collaborate with Dr. Korson - based on what he himself has said, not just what the family has said. There would have been no downside to having the Tufts and Children's doctors talk to each other.

 

By the way, in case it wasn't obvious from my second paragraph, this particular "new guy" is not a guy.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

It was not that the broken bone was misdiagnosed as something else - but if you fall and land on a broken bone that has not yet completely healed, it is probably going to hurt. Broken bones can cause considerable discomfort even when you don't fall - yet several of the nursing staff at BCH made it clear that pain management, or even empathy, is not part of their repertoire. If it had been just one nurse, on one occasion, I would just think that she/he was a jerk - but it was several, on a couple of occasions.

 

If you have reached middle age, surely you know how many diagnoses and standard medical practices from not too long ago have been abandoned. It wasn't that long ago that Bettelheim convinced the medical establishment that autism was the fault of "refrigerator mothers." When I gave birth to my oldest child, they expected both my baby and me to share a room with someone who was smoking in the room (I refused). My child's pediatrician prescribed fluoride drops for her, even though our water was fluoridated. Every time my child's ear looked a little red at a routine checkup, he would prescribe antibiotics. He thought we were odd to not want him to give our child the live virus polio vaccine, but rather use the killed virus vaccination. All of these, with the exception of the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis, were still standard medical practice in the 80's, but none of them are today. Doctors are wrong frequently. Why do you assume that somatoform will even be considered a valid diagnosis in 10 or 20 years? Or that SSRI's will still be used? Remember Miltown? Mito will likely turn out to be secondary to other disease processes, probably at least several of them.

 

There are two competing diagnoses. Children's refused to collaborate with Dr. Korson - based on what he himself has said, not just what the family has said. There would have been no downside to having the Tufts and Children's doctors talk to each other.

 

By the way, in case it wasn't obvious from my second paragraph, this particular "new guy" is not a guy.

Can size?

[psychsurvivor 2]

A bunch of pathetic rantings...

 

Let's be clear that I kept the discussion with you to facts, reason and science until you started calling me names and making a mockery of my own experience of psychiatric abuse. Then you yourself brought your own mother to the discussion in an attempt to shutdown the debate (a technique in fallacious reasoning known as Appeal to Pity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity ). Anybody looking at the 20 pages can see that. So it is very pathetic that you now come asking others to be civil.

 

If you didn't want to be mocked you had it easy, you should have kept the conversation civil and you should have stuck to the facts, reason and science.

 

The moment you started the name calling (for God's sake, you didn't even spare Tom Insel, the director of the NIMH, of that!), and started to spew unscientific NAMI propaganda is the moment you brought incivility to the discussion. You have only yourself, and the other name callers, to blame that the discussion turned uncivil. I am not one who starts uncivil discussions, but when I am attacked I do not remain silent putting up with name calling and nonsense.

[FeelingMN 273]

- You seem immune to facts, reason and logic. I brought you this commentary by Tom Insel http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/antipsychotics-taking-the-long-view.shtml which deals with the results of a study that shows that people in the discontinuance group had better recovery rates than the people on the regime you have your mother under, and you even called Tom Insel names. That is how the mind of the zealot works.

Get over. When you are in a hole: stop digging, then start climbing. In your case, "stop digging" would be to stop listening to NAMI propaganda. "Start climbing" would be to read about facts, reason and science .

Per your NIMH link:

 

It appears that what we currently call “schizophrenia” may comprise disorders with quite different trajectories. For some people, remaining on medication long-term might impede a full return to wellness. For others, discontinuing medication can be disastrous.

 

NIMH is supporting research on interventions that focus on a combination of approaches—symptom remission, family engagement, and functional recovery. The Recovery After Initial Schizophrenia Episode (RAISE) project combines low-dose medication with family psycho-education, supported education/employment, individual resilience training, and other interventions to focus on more than just the psychotic symptoms.4Combining current treatments, as done in RAISE, looks like a promising approach.5,6,7

 

We realize that for too many people, today’s treatments are not good enough. New, better treatments are essential if we are to improve outcomes for all – that is the promise of research. But in the meantime, we need to be thoughtful about the treatments we have. Clearly, some individuals need to be on medication continually to avoid relapse. At the same time, we need to ask whether in the long-term, some individuals with a history of psychosis may do better off medication. This is a tough call, where known risks need to be balanced against potential benefits. As the RAISE project has emphasized, shared decision-making between patients, families, and providers is essential for long-term management of psychotic disorders.

Some people need to be on medication continually....

 

What were you saying about zealots?

[OldMaid 2,134]

Let's be clear that I kept the discussion with you to facts, reason and science until you started calling me names and making a mockery of my own experience of psychiatric abuse. Then you yourself brought your own mother to the discussion in an attempt to shutdown the debate (a technique in fallacious reasoning known as Appeal to Pity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity ). Anybody looking at the 20 pages can see that. So it is very pathetic that you now come asking others to be civil.

If you didn't want to be mocked you had it easy, you should have kept the conversation civil and you should have stuck to the facts, reason and science.

The moment you started the name calling (for God's sake, you didn't even spare Tom Insel, the director of the NIMH, of that!), and started to spew unscientific NAMI propaganda is the moment you brought incivility to the discussion. You have only yourself, and the other name callers, to blame that the discussion turned uncivil. I am not one who starts uncivil discussions, but when I am attacked I do not remain silent putting up with name calling and nonsense.

Sweet Jesus...

 

This has nothing to do with anyone being uncivil. It has to do with you being focking nuts. I've asked you to stop responding... and you can't even follow that simple instruction. The truth is, you can't seem to be able to stop yourself. You've demonstrated a very troubling display of lacking self control. Even when people stopped responding to you, you kept trying to insert yourself into the conversation. Replying to stuff that wasn't even directed at you-over and OVER. That's what a focking nut job does. You can say all you want that you were abused by the psychiatric system, but it's clear that you have problems. Keep trying to tell yourself that you don't need help, but we all see the writing on the wall here.

 

As far as your reasoning and facts go... You've done nothing but bring an argument of semantics, and conveniently overlook facts-while spouting that others are doing the exact same thing. You've contradicted yourself on several occasions- which has already been pointed out, and showed a lack of understanding or empathy for what I've gone through. And you also pretend to know what would be best for my family without even meeting either one of us.

 

Please, please, PUH-LEASE stop responding... I beg you. Of course, I doubt you have enough control of your mental faculties to do that.