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Lions at Packers: In-Game Discussion

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37 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Thanks for saying that. I've never understood people who need to spin everything for their team like they're a political consultant spinning for their candidate. I want the Lions to win every game they play, but I also have two eyes and an objective brain and can admit when they get a bad call in their favor.

(Although the funny thing is, I'm 46 and have been a Lions fan for 40 of them, and I literally can't remember a single time where the refs gifted the Lions a win. Not saying it never happened, just that I can't remember it. But in the last few years alone, there's been the KJ Wright batted ball on MNF, the DPI flag that got picked up in the 2014 wildcard game vs. Dallas, the phantom facemask on Rodgers in the 2015 Hail Mary game, and now this. Lions being Lions, they probably would have found a way to blow those games on their own, but bad officiating played a role in all of them.)

The Lions and Stafford lost the game themselves.  It wasn't the refs.  HTH.

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2 hours ago, zftcg said:

Thanks for saying that. I've never understood people who need to spin everything for their team like they're a political consultant spinning for their candidate. I want the Lions to win every game they play, but I also have two eyes and an objective brain and can admit when they get a bad call in their favor.

(Although the funny thing is, I'm 46 and have been a Lions fan for 40 of them, and I literally can't remember a single time where the refs gifted the Lions a win. Not saying it never happened, just that I can't remember it. But in the last few years alone, there's been the KJ Wright batted ball on MNF, the DPI flag that got picked up in the 2014 wildcard game vs. Dallas, the phantom facemask on Rodgers in the 2015 Hail Mary game, and now this. Lions being Lions, they probably would have found a way to blow those games on their own, but bad officiating played a role in all of them.)

  Good point- I can't remember when the Lions ever got a break either! Seems like some teams get all the breaks (Pittsburg) from the refs and some never do. Better days ahead to you.

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17 hours ago, donhaas said:

This was a missed call, too. But c'mon. Detroit sucked in this game. They were gifted two turnovers by a practice-league receiver and another by Jones. The couldn't capitalize. Beyond the first quarter and a trick play or two, they were completely dominated.

Not to single you out, because I hear this kind of thing all the time, even after the missed DPI in the NFCCG last year. But here's my problem with "The refs didn't blow it. The team blew it all by themselves": Every game is decided by a million different variables. Particularly in a close game, you can always point to one thing and identify it as the decisive factor. It's like when Congress passes a bill by a single vote; every vote can be called the "deciding vote".

But the reason games like Saints-Rams -- and, to a lesser extent, Lions-Packers -- rankle is because the vast majority of those variables involve the two teams on the field. When an outside variable like the refs play a decisive role, it seems much worse. Sure, I could point to a million things the Saints did wrong in the Championship Game. But the fact remains that if the refs had made the right call, they would have won. Monday's game wasn't nearly as black and white as that game was, but it's the notion of a blatant missed call at a decisive moment late in the game.

I may be a Lions fan, but I'm the furthest thing from an apologist for them. Hell, there's a part of me that expects them to find a way to blow close games like this. Lions gonna Lion. So I have no argument with your list of all the things they did wrong. And I can't even say for sure they would have won with better reffing. But it definitely had an impact on the game

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13 minutes ago, huskyhater75 said:

  Good point- I can't remember when the Lions ever got a break either! Seems like some teams get all the breaks (Pittsburg) from the refs and some never do. Better days ahead to you.

Thanks (although it says something about the Lions' history that fans of their divisional rivals pity them rather than hate them.) :doh:

I'm reminded of the old Branch Rickey quote: Luck is the residue of design. Maybe if the Lions hadn't been so mismanaged over the past 60 years, they wouldn't constantly be in positions where bad calls don't break their way. Like @donhaas said, Packers got screwed in that playoff game against the Cardinals 10 years ago, but no one remembers it much now since they came back the following year and won the Super Bowl. Lions may have gotten jobbed with a phantom facemask against Rodgers in that 2015 TNF game, but they followed up that play with one of the worst Hail Mary defenses I've ever seen.

Interestingly, Patriots fans for years complained about the Sugar Bear Hamilton roughing the passer penalty in the 1976 playoffs. Twenty-five years later they finally had a postseason call go their way in the Tuck Rule game (also against the Raiders!) and the franchise has led a seemingly charmed life ever since.

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16 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Not to single you out, because I hear this kind of thing all the time, even after the missed DPI in the NFCCG last year. But here's my problem with "The refs didn't blow it. The team blew it all by themselves": Every game is decided by a million different variables. Particularly in a close game, you can always point to one thing and identify it as the decisive factor. It's like when Congress passes a bill by a single vote; every vote can be called the "deciding vote".

But the reason games like Saints-Rams -- and, to a lesser extent, Lions-Packers -- rankle is because the vast majority of those variables involve the two teams on the field. When an outside variable like the refs play a decisive role, it seems much worse. Sure, I could point to a million things the Saints did wrong in the Championship Game. But the fact remains that if the refs had made the right call, they would have won. Monday's game wasn't nearly as black and white as that game was, but it's the notion of a blatant missed call at a decisive moment late in the game.

I may be a Lions fan, but I'm the furthest thing from an apologist for them. Hell, there's a part of me that expects them to find a way to blow close games like this. Lions gonna Lion. So I have no argument with your list of all the things they did wrong. And I can't even say for sure they would have won with better reffing. But it definitely had an impact on the game

 Right... but at some point you're going to need to move past the reffing and examine the nuts and bolts of this game.... And that, unfortunately, for Lions fans is that the Packers completely dominated this game after the beginning.  The Packers back-up running back and weird, raw practice guys like Lazard, Shepard, and some long-haired white Jesus hippie dude from UW-Whitewater were going up and down and up and down and up and down the field on your defense. That should be your concern.

Just imagine what Davante Adams would do. Think about that for a second.

And offensively. after the 70-yard gadget play worked on the Packers back-up safety and another long play worked, the Lions were completely stoned on offense. Zilch. Nada. Johnson : 2 yards a carry. Offense: 10 yards a drive for the last 8 possessions. The Packer defense dominated the game (say that out loud; that's weird to hear😀 as a Packers fan). That also should be your concern.

 

But your concern is the refs. Not, however, the refs gave Detroit 7 points that they never got. The initial guy that called touchdown was 60 feet away and out of position. Nothing showed that he hit that line. But of course refs are too proud to reverse themselves.

I don't really care about that bad call in the long run. How did the Packers play? They dominated yardage (with practice league receivers, mind you) 466-290. The drove the ball consistently. Detroit was stoned 8 times in a row from the 2nd quarter to the end of the game.

It's unfortunate that last call was made. But after Crosby instead makes as chip-shot 35 yard FG, why is it a guarantee that Detroit would march the field with no timeouts and a minute left to score after they got stoned the previous 8 times? So how bad are you really getting jobbed? Is it worse than Rusty Wilson throwing an INT on the last play of the game and a Seattle player coming over and touching the ball in the defender's hands and the refs calling that a touchdown? I doubt it. Stuff happens, though

 If Detroit would have dominated the game and lost because of bad calls, I would be much more pissed as a fan. As it was, they probably never deserved to win. They were dominated for most of the game.

The Packers didn't deserve to win either with all the stupid mistakes they made.

 

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1 minute ago, remote controller said:

I don't think there was any doubt which team was and is better.

Sounds good. Let's move on to the next game then!:music_guitarred:

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File  this away if the Pack ever finally gets screwed in a big spot. 

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6 hours ago, zftcg said:

Thanks for saying that. I've never understood people who need to spin everything for their team like they're a political consultant spinning for their candidate. I want the Lions to win every game they play, but I also have two eyes and an objective brain and can admit when they get a bad call in their favor.

(Although the funny thing is, I'm 46 and have been a Lions fan for 40 of them, and I literally can't remember a single time where the refs gifted the Lions a win. Not saying it never happened, just that I can't remember it. But in the last few years alone, there's been the KJ Wright batted ball on MNF, the DPI flag that got picked up in the 2014 wildcard game vs. Dallas, the phantom facemask on Rodgers in the 2015 Hail Mary game, and now this. Lions being Lions, they probably would have found a way to blow those games on their own, but bad officiating played a role in all of them.)

Man, I can't believe I forgot the Calvin Johnson Rule game! It's like there are too many to keep track of!

(Though to be fair, that was the correct application of a dumb rule, not an officiating mistake.)

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13 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

File  this away if the Pack ever finally gets screwed in a big spot. 

That was why I invoked the Fail Mary upthread, but apparently that game was so traumatic that long-time Packer fans have completely blocked it from their memories.

(For the record, I read a very convincing account a couple years ago of why it was a legit catch by Tate.* The part I found most convincing was this video, which clearly shows the ball hit Tate's left hand before Jennings touched it, and from that moment on Tate's hand never lost contact with the ball.)

* Well, other than the uncalled OPI when he tossed Shields to the ground

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43 minutes ago, zftcg said:

That was why I invoked the Fail Mary upthread, but apparently that game was so traumatic that long-time Packer fans have completely blocked it from their memories.

Yeah, you keep saying that.  Maybe you need to read this post instead of blaming refs:

Detroit got a TD they didn't deserve and were not called on a plainly obvious illegal use of hands penalty.  Stop making it out like the two calls on Flowers were THE ONLY bad calls/non-calls in the game and they were the only ones that affected the final outcome.

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44 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Yeah, you keep saying that.  Maybe you need to read this post instead of blaming refs:

I keep saying that because you have yet to indicate that you know what the Fail Mary was, which I find absolutely astounding. I would have figured by this point you would have at least Googled it so you could pretend you knew what I was talking about all along. The one comment you made indicated that you thought it was the Dez Bryant game. :doh:

44 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Detroit got a TD they didn't deserve and were not called on a plainly obvious illegal use of hands penalty.  Stop making it out like the two calls on Flowers were THE ONLY bad calls/non-calls in the game and they were the only ones that affected the final outcome.

Strawman much? Could you please point to my post where I said the Flowers calls were the only bad ones, or where I said that they determined the final outcome? What I did say was that the second penalty was the only one that the league officially declared was called incorrectly, which is indisputably true.

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9 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I keep saying that because you have yet to indicate that you know what the Fail Mary was, which I find absolutely astounding. I would have figured by this point you would have at least Googled it so you could pretend you knew what I was talking about all along. The one comment you made indicated that you thought it was the Dez Bryant game. :doh:

Strawman much? Could you please point to my post where I said the Flowers calls were the only bad ones, or where I said that they determined the final outcome? What I did say was that the second penalty was the only one that the league officially declared was called incorrectly, which is indisputably true.

I'm not sure why my knowing about the Fail Mary or not is so important to you or this conversation.  Let me help you - it isn't.  You keep distracting the conversation with these side tangents like you want to play some game of "GOTCHA" but I'm telling you it's not working.  So let's move on.

As far as the "strawman", it's that Flowers penalties MAY HAVE NEVER EVEN HAPPENED had those earlier calls been penalized and/or reversed.  Then what would you complain about instead of putting the blame where it belongs - on the Lions?

 

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25 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I keep saying that because you have yet to indicate that you know what the Fail Mary was, which I find absolutely astounding. I would have figured by this point you would have at least Googled it so you could pretend you knew what I was talking about all along. The one comment you made indicated that you thought it was the Dez Bryant game. :doh:

Strawman much? Could you please point to my post where I said the Flowers calls were the only bad ones, or where I said that they determined the final outcome? What I did say was that the second penalty was the only one that the league officially declared was called incorrectly, which is indisputably true.

I've read the conversation. It's obvious that Eternal knows the game to which the 'Fail Mary' reference applies; he indicated as much immediately.

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3 hours ago, IMMensaMind said:

I've read the conversation. It's obvious that Eternal knows the game to which the 'Fail Mary' reference applies; he indicated as much immediately.

Seriously? Here was his initial response after I mentioned Fail Mary:

On 10/15/2019 at 8:44 AM, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with the current conversation. I can't even remember that game other than that non-catch.  You're talking about the Dallas-Green Bay game, correct?

How could you interpret that as anything other than him thinking I was talking about the Dez Bryant game?

Anyway, he is right that I keep bringing it up for reasons having nothing to do with the thread. That's because I'm completely gobsmacked that any NFL fan would not know about one of the most famous regular-season games of this decade, much less a fan of the team that was involved in it. It would be like if you asked a Lions fan about the Calvin Johnson Rule game and he said, "You mean the wildcard loss to the Cowboys?" Except that the Fail Mary was about 10 times more famous; it was a national story and led directly to the end of the refs' work stoppage.

For the record, though, my original point was relevant to the conversation; I was asking if, after a game that the Packers lost due to a controversial officiating decision, he was saying the same thing about how it was really the Packers' fault for not executing earlier in the game rather than blaming it on the replacement refs. But since he apparently went all "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" and had the entire game wiped from his memory, I guess my question is moot. :dunno:

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6 hours ago, remote controller said:

I am very pleased to be 5-1 considering the schedule so far.  I like the way Rodgers put it.   “I think it equals out pretty good over the years,” Rodgers said, according to Matt Schneidman of The Athletic.

what a crock.......the Puckin' Fackers almost always win the call.

  • Thanks 1

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4 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

As far as the "strawman", it's that Flowers penalties MAY HAVE NEVER EVEN HAPPENED had those earlier calls been penalized and/or reversed.  Then what would you complain about instead of putting the blame where it belongs - on the Lions?

Ah, so you don't know what "strawman" refers to either? Why am I not surprised?

OK, I'll do everyone a favor this time and not drag it out. A "strawman argument" is when you refute an argument that your opponent never made. You ascribed positions to me that I never stated; in fact, I said the exact opposite in terms of not attributing the loss solely to the ref's mistakes. Anyway, we have gotten away from my original point, which was that your blatant homerism prevents you from viewing the situation with anything resembling objectivity. But honestly, at this point that's taken a backseat to your sheer ignorance.

And with that, I'm out. Arguing with someone where you have to explain the most basic concepts is exhausting, and I have better things to do with my time. For future reference, though, Google is your friend.

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1 hour ago, zftcg said:

Ah, so you don't know what "strawman" refers to either? Why am I not surprised?

OK, I'll do everyone a favor this time and not drag it out. A "strawman argument" is when you refute an argument that your opponent never made. You ascribed positions to me that I never stated; in fact, I said the exact opposite in terms of not attributing the loss solely to the ref's mistakes. Anyway, we have gotten away from my original point, which was that your blatant homerism prevents you from viewing the situation with anything resembling objectivity. But honestly, at this point that's taken a backseat to your sheer ignorance.

And with that, I'm out. Arguing with someone where you have to explain the most basic concepts is exhausting, and I have better things to do with my time. For future reference, though, Google is your friend.

I'll take that as a win since you were the one that brought up erroneous points to distract from the real conversation at hand.  

Maybe next time you'll watch the whole game instead of watching the highlights on the local Detroit news channel. Had you watch the whole game, you would have realized the Lions lost that game with their lousy play. 

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1 hour ago, remote controller said:

poor lil guy has packer envy

lol.......not a chance

The name "Packer" and the dumb G on the helmet are both ridiculous. 

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