Police Kill Another

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

I try to side with the police as much as possible but sometimes it can be hard.  Here's another case where a person is shot by police and it never should have happened.  I feel terrible for the family and I try to understand the position those officers were in but it's hard.  What really bothers me is that it looks like the police tried to protect themselves by lying about what really happened.  The guy should not have resisted but shooting him on school grounds seems too far.

 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Another smoking related death.

 

Really bad police work there.  Inexcusable.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

After they shoot him then one officer says "hold on real quick, just let us figure out what;s going on."  Maybe they could have figured out what was going on before shoting the person for putting something in his mouth.  At best that was destruction or concealment of evidence, hardly a capital offense, at worse it was entirely innocent behavior.

 

When they arrived on scene there was no crime in progess, no imminent danger.  They brought the danger with them.

[Gladiators 2,032]

This one doesn't bother me.

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

7 minutes ago, Gladiators said:

This one doesn't bother me.

I didn't see a need for shooting him that quickly.  He looked and acted pretty sketchy but they decided to shoot him pretty fast.

[Fireballer 2,677]

Dude would have been subdued in about 10 seconds with BJJ.  

[jerryskids 7,083]

2 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Dude would have been subdued in about 10 seconds with BJJ.  

Are you allowed to choke out these days?

[Fireballer 2,677]

8 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Are you allowed to choke out these days?

It depends on the jurisdiction. The PD I worked closely with allowed it only if your life was in danger.

[Fireballer 2,677]

27 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Are you allowed to choke out these days?

Some of the Gracies teach LE specific BJJ and it’s proven to be a very effective alternative to lethal force.  

 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

The complainant was safe when the police arrived. The subject of inquiry was present, not trying to flee nor conceal himself from police observation and inquiry and had an understandable explanation for his behavior. He behaved nervously, but not inherently suspiciously as he responded to police inquiry. He had a reasonable explanation for his nerves.  He took a pill during the interaction.  He was not instructed to not move, to keep his hands out of his pockets, or to not take a pill..  He was not under suspicion for, nor did they have probable cause to believe he was in possession of or dealing or using illegal narcotics.  His taking the pill under those circumstances did not amount to probable cause he was destroying or concealing evidence.  They had no sufficient legal justification for going hands on at that point. They went hands on without explaining he was under arrest, nor for what offense.  They precipitated a crises and confused the individual.  There were a few of them and only one of him.  They tried to control him for only seconds.  They allege he reached for their weapon, but not that he got their weapon.  They shot him while they were standing and he was prostrate on his back.  They were not then in mortal danger.  Bad police work from start to finish.  Definitely a bad shoot. 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

A dumb person got confused by cars that all look the same and got into one which resembled his, instantly recognixzed his mistake, exited, and then got into the correct car.  i get that folks are concerned when it comes to their kids and unusual things occurring  around their kids.  I mean there are kidnappings, car jackings, and school shootings in the news, but innocent mistakes do occur.  The situation was static and controlled when the police arrived and their poor investigatory technigues, their poor inquiry, lead to the situation where they went for a forcible arrest without probable cause and then shot an innocent person who was prostrate before them when they had multiple officers available to control the one individual.  They went up the force continuum far too precipitously. In my opinion this was a criminal application of force.  They are definitely civilly liable and should be dismissed from employment and criminally charged.

 

BTW, like the original poster i too strongly support the police whenever i reasonable can do so.

[HellToupee 2,214]

Don’t get in a wrestling match with a cop. After the shooting them not providing medical assistance seems inexcusable. And what’s with the 2 idiots in the front seat

 

 

[League Champion 1,926]

Here's a tip to all you wanna be thugs out there. STAY OFF OF THE POLICE'S RADAR!. 

Nobody I know has to worry about this because we are law biding citizens. If you get pulled over obey the Police order and do what they say. ITS THAT SIMPLE. Don't resist, don't get mouthy, don't run and definitely don't wrestle with a cop. 

If you think it's easy being a cop, especially in the hood then think again. 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

People reflexively tense up and go into defensive postures when manhandled.  that is not the same as resisting or wrestling with the cops.  Had the officers explained what they were doing, and had they allowed the individual an opportunity to process that information this may well have gone differenty.

 

it is ine thing when the polcie arrive on scene with a violent felony in progress, and quite anothe when the iundertake a violent arrest without probable cause and without explanation as to their inappropriate and violent application of force.  i am aware that the concept of a force continuum is being replaced, but it still has application.  The police here acted without cause and unreasonably. 

[jerryskids 7,083]

58 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

It depends on the jurisdiction. The PD I worked closely with allowed it only if your life was in danger.

Thanks, and thanks for the videos.  I'm a big fan of LEOs learning ground control/submission tactics, I'm just wondering what handcuffs (pardon the pun) are put on the officers when implementing such techniques.   

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks, and thanks for the videos.  I'm a big fan of LEOs learning ground control/submission tactics, I'm just wondering what handcuffs (pardon the pun) are put on the officers when implementing such techniques.   

Since George Floyd most departments have revived their Departmental directives to prohibit choke and carotid holds.  That is in line with them also prohibiting hobbling as positional asphixiation studies have come out the last decade or so.  Fatal incidents under either scenario were always extremely rare, yet they have been judged by society as unacceptable.  Whether society made that judgment with full understanding of the remaining techniques available and the relative risks associated with those techniques is anothe question.  I would argue the changes were not rationally and well considered.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Let this be a lesson kids, don't smoke, it can lead to death.

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

17 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Don’t get in a wrestling match with a cop. After the shooting them not providing medical assistance seems inexcusable. And what’s with the 2 idiots in the front seat

 

 

He was just sitting in the car and doing nothing wrong.  The police ripped him out of the car after he took an anxiety pill(from what I read.)  I don't know why they felt they needed to pull him out of the car and wrestle him to the ground.

[Alias Detective 1,459]

2 hours ago, Engorgeous George said:

After they shoot him then one officer says "hold on real quick, just let us figure out what;s going on."  Maybe they could have figured out what was going on before shoting the person for putting something in his mouth.  At best that was destruction or concealment of evidence, hardly a capital offense, at worse it was entirely innocent behavior.

 

When they arrived on scene there was no crime in progess, no imminent danger.  They brought the danger with them.

Please.  Popping the pill wasn’t the reason he was shot.  The tussle and POSSIBLY going for the LEO’s weapon was why he was shot.

The pill popping is why he was being placed under control.  Again, follow orders and stay alive 99.98% of the time.

[Alias Detective 1,459]

21 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Don’t get in a wrestling match with a cop. After the shooting them not providing medical assistance seems inexcusable. And what’s with the 2 idiots in the front seat

 

 

The only plausible excuse is he was clearly dead.  Decapitation or damn near it.  Otherwise, that’s what is disgusting to me.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Just now, Alias Detective said:

Please.  Popping the pill wasn’t the reason he was shot.  The tussle and POSSIBLY going for the LEO’s weapon was why he was shot.

The pill popping is why he was being placed under control.  Again, follow orders and stay alive 99.98% of the time.

I am going to respectfully disagree.  i have stated my reasons in follow on posts and will not trouble you with reiterating them here.  I am gratified with your general support of cops.  

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

3 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Please.  Popping the pill wasn’t the reason he was shot.  The tussle and POSSIBLY going for the LEO’s weapon was why he was shot.

The pill popping is why he was being placed under control.  Again, follow orders and stay alive 99.98% of the time.

Was taking a pill a good enough reason to pull him from the car and try to detain him?  I don't know the right answer but I think it could have been handled better than that.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Here’s the issue: he put something in his mouth. Perps often do that to destroy evidence. But whatever he put in his mouth was not a threat to the cop. At best it was some drugs. BFD. No need to roll around on the ground with a guy for that. Cops need and get a lot of leeway when it comes to use of force when they are threatened. This wasn’t the case. Bad use of force.Now  I can’t see what went on on the ground. Maybe there was a struggle for the weapon.  But if we blame people for not cooperating with police, we also have to call out police for escalating the use of force when it’s just not necessary. Kick ass when warranted. But it has to be warranted. I couldn’t imagine getting nuts because some guy put something in his mouth. I never did. 

[HellToupee 2,214]

 

if cops could still give backhanders this tweeker is still alive

[jerryskids 7,083]

5 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Since George Floyd most departments have revived their Departmental directives to prohibit choke and carotid holds.  That is in line with them also prohibiting hobbling as positional asphixiation studies have come out the last decade or so.  Fatal incidents under either scenario were always extremely rare, yet they have been judged by society as unacceptable.  Whether society made that judgment with full understanding of the remaining techniques available and the relative risks associated with those techniques is anothe question.  I would argue the changes were not rationally and well considered.

This is one of my concerns:  much of BJJ is manipulating people into submission positions.  In such positions, the person either submits or... not, where "not" means a choke, or broken bone/ligament/etc.  Many of the fine upstanding suspects who end up in a ground fight with the police seem to not prefer the submission route.  So, what is an officer to do?

Exacerbating this is the fact that these officers are getting a little training, not spending 5+ years of constant training to become a black belt.  For instance, IMO that arm bar transition to a handcuff that the Gracies demonstrated is probably too complicated to expect a minimally-trained person to pull off in a street situation.  KISS.

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

8 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Here’s the issue: he put something in his mouth. Perps often do that to destroy evidence. But whatever he put in his mouth was not a threat to the cop. At best it was some drugs. BFD. No need to roll around on the ground with a guy for that. Cops need and get a lot of leeway when it comes to use of force when they are threatened. This wasn’t the case. Bad use of force.Now  I can’t see what went on on the ground. Maybe there was a struggle for the weapon.  But if we blame people for not cooperating with police, we also have to call out police for escalating the use of force when it’s just not necessary. Kick ass when warranted. But it has to be warranted. I couldn’t imagine getting nuts because some guy put something in his mouth. I never did. 

Well said.

[porkbutt 897]

maybe because we've lowered the bar so much to become a cop... and now we're going to complain how much they suck. libtards created this mess along with pretty much everything.

great job.

best practice is to stay out of trouble and you won't need interactions with cops. its kinda pretty easy.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

How it should have gone.

 

Good afternoon sir.  The lady in the car up ahead says you got into her car for a moment and that scared her.  I am just here to make sure everything is O.K.  I have a few questions, but for my safety and yours while I ask them I need you to,place your hands on the seat back in front of you and to not move them.  Do you understand?  please repeat what I just said.

Did you get into her car?

Why?

What are you doing here?

Who is your brother?  What grade is he in?  When will he be out?

Are you in need of medical assistance, you seem nervous and confused?

I am going to have to stay here to confirm you have a brother at this school, please exit the car for just a moment keeping your hands in plain sight and out of your pockets.

I am going to pat you down for officer safety while I clear up what looks like an innocent misunderstanding.  You are not under arrest or even under suspicion of a crime at this time.  Do you understand?  I will not be reaching inside yoir pockets or searching for anything other than weapons, do you understand?

Thank you Sir.  Please stand right there while we wait for your brother.  If you need another smoke to calm down while we wait you go right ahead.

Seems everything was  just as it should be.  Hell, I can't tell half these cars apart either.  They do look all the same.  You have a nice day sir.  We will let the woman up ahead know it was just an innocent mistake.  

 

 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

2 minutes ago, porkbutt said:

maybe because we've lowered the bar so much to become a cop... and now we're going to complain how much they suck. libtards created this mess along with pretty much everything.

great job.

best practice is to stay out of trouble and you won't need interactions with cops. its kinda pretty easy.

I'm curious to see what the average experience is for the cops who have killed people when it wasn't warranted.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm curious to see what the average experience is for the cops who have killed people when it wasn't warranted.

You might google Elijah McClain,  Officers and paramedics are on criminal trial right now.  The civil suit was settled for 15 million.  The Department is under a consent decree. I don't know if this is representative, but it may be the new average with the demarcation timeline starting with George Floyd.  One average experience befor then and one after.  Policing has two time frames now, BGF (before george Floud) and AGF (after George Floyd).

[Alias Detective 1,459]

35 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Was taking a pill a good enough reason to pull him from the car and try to detain him?  I don't know the right answer but I think it could have been handled better than that.

Maybe, at what point did the cops know it was a pill?  After the sketchy dude said so?  Cause weird people doing weird crap, hiding taking a nerve pill,  people always speak truth?

[Mr Fantasy 67]

24 minutes ago, porkbutt said:

maybe because we've lowered the bar so much to become a cop

It’s going to be fun flying in a couple of years 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

5 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Maybe, at what point did the cops know it was a pill?  After the sketchy dude said so?  Cause weird people doing weird crap, hiding taking a nerve pill,  people always speak truth?

What could he have possibly put in his mouth that warranted what happened?

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

7 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

Maybe, at what point did the cops know it was a pill?  After the sketchy dude said so?  Cause weird people doing weird crap, hiding taking a nerve pill,  people always speak truth?

Maybe the guy was lying, and maybe not. The thing is officers have to act on probable cause.  Yes perps try to dispose of evidence.  But equally true innocent people put things in their mouths.  The cops had no direct evidence narcotics were in any manner an issue and only the sketchiest suspicion based on behavior.  No court would find probable cause under the circumstances then known for an arrest.  That being the case there was no justification for any force at that time.  The cop acted precipitously and then again after the brief struggle when he shot the prone unarmed suspect while he was standing, with backup,  

[Gladiators 2,032]

The guy wasn't cooperative.  He made it clear that he doesn't like cops.  The police asked him if he had a weapon and it wasn't a direct "No" response.  Then he starts pulling stuff out of his pocket, puts something in his mouth, and reaches inside his coat pocket.  They pull him out and he's combative from what I saw.  I don't have any sympathy on this one.

[Alias Detective 1,459]

Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

What could he have possibly put in his mouth that warranted what happened?

drugs he is peddling on school grounds?  

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

Just now, Alias Detective said:

drugs he is peddling on school grounds?  

Not sure that's enough to do what they did.

[Alias Detective 1,459]

3 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Maybe the guy was lying, and maybe not. The thing is officers have to act on probable cause.  Yes perps try to dispose of evidence.  But equally true innocent people put things in their mouths.  The cops had no direct evidence narcotics were in any manner an issue and only the sketchiest suspicion based on behavior.  No court would find probable cause under the circumstances then known for an arrest.  That being the case there was no justification for any force at that time.  The cop acted precipitously and then again after the brief struggle when he shot the prone unarmed suspect while he was standing, with backup,  

Fair points.  Time will tell based on how it shakes out.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Just now, Alias Detective said:

drugs he is peddling on school grounds?  

Do you believe they had probable cause to suspect that?  Any reliable information? Could they have articulated a reasonable suspicion on the information known to them at that time such that a court would have agreed their suspicion was reasonable?

[Alias Detective 1,459]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Not sure that's enough to do what they did.

Fair enough.  Time will tell.