**2023 Masters Thread**

[edjr 6,580]

6 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Agreed.   The pro bowl has names but I haven't watched that in 20 years because it doesn't matter.   

And the Valspar did?  Taylor Moore and Adam Schenk 1st and 2nd.  

[bostonlager 2,665]

19 hours ago, edjr said:

How much do you think the LIV guys practice? They were given 100 million just to show up

Mike McClure has DJ ranked 5. 

[bostonlager 2,665]

1 minute ago, bostonlager said:

Mike McClure has DJ ranked 5. 

Scratch that. Latest update has him 15. 

[edjr 6,580]

7 minutes ago, bostonlager said:

Mike McClure has DJ ranked 5. 

misses cut

[listen2me 23 1,873]

11 minutes ago, edjr said:

And the Valspar did?  Taylor Moore and Adam Schenk 1st and 2nd.  

Valspar did what?   Have names?  I wasn't the one saying I was here for the names.  

Valspar matters.  Everyone is trying.  World ranking pts are awarded.  A spot in majors is awarded.   Off thr top of my head those are things on the line at the crumby Valspar that are not on thr LIV Tour.   Plus PGA is easier and better to bet on from what I have came across.  

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

I find it hard to believe that these guys, who before last year did not have the option of LIV golf, just all of the sudden don't care at all about the most important golfing events they grew up watching. So I do believe they care about these majors they still qualify for. Obviously if they care about getting OWGR points for LIV it means they care about the majors. 

It really just comes down to form and I understand that argument. I don't think I could bet any of them but i'll certainly be hoping for a few to be in the mix come Sunday. the amount of heads that would roll if a LIV golfer won a major that the PGA feels only it's players have a right to play in would be amazing. 

[edjr 6,580]

Just now, listen2me 23 said:

Valspar matters.  Everyone is trying. 

trophies for all!

[listen2me 23 1,873]

9 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I find it hard to believe that these guys, who before last year did not have the option of LIV golf, just all of the sudden don't care at all about the most important golfing events they grew up watching. So I do believe they care about these majors they still qualify for. Obviously if they care about getting OWGR points for LIV it means they care about the majors. 

It really just comes down to form and I understand that argument. I don't think I could bet any of them but i'll certainly be hoping for a few to be in the mix come Sunday. the amount of heads that would roll if a LIV golfer won a major that the PGA feels only it's players have a right to play in would be amazing. 

It isn't necessarily don't care.  It is losing an edge.  Even if it is slight.  Margins are slim in elite level athletics.   If the Olympian swimmer doesn't cross every single T and dot every single I.....they have little chance at a gold or even medaling.  If you don't care just enough to skip over things....anything... that you would normally do to prepare....you lost an edge.  

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

1 hour ago, listen2me 23 said:

It isn't necessarily don't care.  It is losing an edge.  Even if it is slight.  Margins are slim in elite level athletics.   If the Olympian swimmer doesn't cross every single T and dot every single I.....they have little chance at a gold or even medaling.  If you don't care just enough to skip over things....anything... that you would normally do to prepare....you lost an edge.  

yeah, I wasn't debating that. ... I guess my thought is that we are deciding that the LIV players have lost an edge because their league only plays 3 rounds and doesn't need to grind for cuts and has fewer events (even though the elite PGA players don't play every week). Guys who got 100-200 million up front may not be preparing for their LIV events but we have no way of knowing what they are doing back home in terms of preparation for the majors. 

Like I said, I wouldn't be able to bet them because of form. We really have no idea... but augusta is also a place where historically guys who have not been in great current form but know the course well and have played it well are able to flip the switch as they drive down magnolia lane so to speak. 

Outside of DJ and Cam, I probably wouldn't be betting any of the LIV guys if they were still on the PGA. Maybe someone like Neimann? Sergio in a DFS lineup just because it's Augusta? That might not change. 

[Cruzer 1,995]

DJ, Cam Smith, Niemann. Ancer, Leishman, Reed, Casey - LIV golfers worth betting on in any event still, including majors. 

[Reality 3,121]

Wouldn't be shocked at all if Cam Smith wins, he was the best player in the world 6 months ago after winning The Open & PGA. Think he was ranked 2nd overall but, he was on his way to being #1.

Rory, whatever, get it done or don't. Over it. Most likely to disappoint.

[bostonlager 2,665]

1 minute ago, Reality said:

Wouldn't be shocked at all if Cam Smith wins, he was the best player in the world 6 months ago after winning The Open & PGA. Think he was ranked 2nd overall but, he was on his way to being #1.

Rory, whatever, get it done or don't. Over it. Most likely to disappoint.

Open and Players. JT won the PGA

[Reality 3,121]

2 minutes ago, bostonlager said:

Open and Players. JT won the PGA

My bad.

[Fumbleweed 547]

2 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

I find it hard to believe that these guys, who before last year did not have the option of LIV golf, just all of the sudden don't care at all about the most important golfing events they grew up watching. So I do believe they care about these majors they still qualify for. Obviously if they care about getting OWGR points for LIV it means they care about the majors. 

It really just comes down to form and I understand that argument. I don't think I could bet any of them but i'll certainly be hoping for a few to be in the mix come Sunday. the amount of heads that would roll if a LIV golfer won a major that the PGA feels only it's players have a right to play in would be amazing. 

I never said they didn't care about the majors. They just don't have a great deal of incentive to grind anymore at regular tournaments and that's what it takes to be great. They're no longer in the cauldron of true competition week in and week out. 

I have no doubt that we'll head into the weekend at Augusta with some LIV guys in contention. But, I think they'll all fall away in the end for reasons already noted. In essence, they did sell their competitive souls to join LIV. 

[listen2me 23 1,873]

25 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

I never said they didn't care about the majors. They just don't have a great deal of incentive to grind anymore at regular tournaments and that's what it takes to be great. They're no longer in the cauldron of true competition week in and week out. 

I have no doubt that we'll head into the weekend at Augusta with some LIV guys in contention. But, I think they'll all fall away in the end for reasons already noted. In essence, they did sell their competitive souls to join LIV. 

I agree with this.  I never said they don't care.  They just logically lost some edge. 

I dont doubt a few of them circled the Masters and have been gearing towards that all year while showing up to LIV events that they are already paid for.  Some could come out firing.  It will be interesting.  

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

2 hours ago, Fumbleweed said:

I never said they didn't care about the majors. They just don't have a great deal of incentive to grind anymore at regular tournaments and that's what it takes to be great. They're no longer in the cauldron of true competition week in and week out. 

I have no doubt that we'll head into the weekend at Augusta with some LIV guys in contention. But, I think they'll all fall away in the end for reasons already noted. In essence, they did sell their competitive souls to join LIV. 

 

2 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

I agree with this.  I never said they don't care.  They just logically lost some edge. 

 

my post that both of you quoted was a singular post. I had not quoted either of you or mentioned either of you. Did not mean to infer that anyone was saying the LIV golfers didn't care. That was my own thought about it. I think around the golf world there is a general sentiment that guys who took upfront money to be contracted with LIV no longer care how they perform, because they got that upfront money. This may be true for some but I would wager the guess that a good deal still care an awful lot about the sport and its most prestigious events. A lot of LIV golfers didn't agree with being banned from the PGA (not to rehash stuff from the Saudi Golf thread but I don't agree with it either. It's the PGA's call but it makes them look like babies).... A lot of LIV golfers also want a way to earn OWGR points, which they should eventually have the right to do. So I think some might be playing a more normal schedule if they had the chance.

 

[Fumbleweed 547]

How could they have played both tours? The PGA has always required its members to play a certain number of events and I don't think LIV guys could do that anyway. 

[listen2me 23 1,873]

10 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

 

 

my post that both of you quoted was a singular post. I had not quoted either of you or mentioned either of you. Did not mean to infer that anyone was saying the LIV golfers didn't care. That was my own thought about it. I think around the golf world there is a general sentiment that guys who took upfront money to be contracted with LIV no longer care how they perform, because they got that upfront money. This may be true for some but I would wager the guess that a good deal still care an awful lot about the sport and its most prestigious events. A lot of LIV golfers didn't agree with being banned from the PGA (not to rehash stuff from the Saudi Golf thread but I don't agree with it either. It's the PGA's call but it makes them look like babies).... A lot of LIV golfers also want a way to earn OWGR points, which they should eventually have the right to do. So I think some might be playing a more normal schedule if they had the chance.

 

I think they may not care a ton about the LIV events, the ones who were paid handsomely.    Ed put up DJs 2 tournys earlier.   He was great until last round of each and put up a terrible number both events.  To me that says hes looking to win for pay or go down in flames.   I feel it is more of a if I don't win this thing I don't really care sort of subconscious idea.  

I do think guys like Bryson and Brooks have mailed it in a bit.   But I also think some of these guys could be creeping in thr shadows gearing for the majors they will play.  I am sure some of them would love nothing more than to stick it to the PGA.   What does gearing up entail? Not sure maybe not really caring about scouting the LIV courses they are playing abd always practicing for the demands of Augusta.  

It will be interesting to say the least.    I have nothing against the LIV guys other than taking away from my own viewing.  I still watch most any PGA tournament at least until I am out there golfing regularly.    I still bet them.  But only thing I have against them is it would and was more fun when everyone was under one roof.  Masters should br a ton of fun this year.   

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

2 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

I think they may not care a ton about the LIV events, the ones who were paid handsomely.    Ed put up DJs 2 tournys earlier.   He was great until last round of each and put up a terrible number both events.  To me that says hes looking to win for pay or go down in flames.   I feel it is more of a if I don't win this thing I don't really care sort of subconscious idea.  

I don't disagree but the same can sort of be said for a lot of the top tier golfers on the PGA. A lot of the top guys don't care about winning lesser events OR at least they care about winning and if they don't win then they are not sweating 3rd versus 25th. I'm talking about the Rahms, Rorys, Spieths etc of the world. The guys who have a ton of endorsement deals and would need a Hunter Mahan type collapse to lose their relevance or not be financially set. 

[listen2me 23 1,873]

Just now, WhiteWonder said:

I don't disagree but the same can sort of be said for a lot of the top tier golfers on the PGA. A lot of the top guys don't care about winning lesser events OR at least they care about winning and if they don't win then they are not sweating 3rd versus 25th. I'm talking about the Rahms, Rorys, Spieths etc of the world. The guys who have a ton of endorsement deals and would need a Hunter Mahan type collapse to lose their relevance or not be financially set. 

I know the very top guys may not.  But you still get pts for finishing 3rd.  Pay is different especially when you dont have a bag of 100mil in the car.  

Maybe I shouldn't speak before watching.   I watched a tiny bit of LIV last year and none this year.   

It will be interesting.   The majors they can play will tell a lot.   

[Fumbleweed 547]

Again, what other choice did the PGA have on the "bannings"? It's not like the guys could have met the requirements for both tours anyway.

[bostonlager 2,665]

Our draft next week will be much more interesting than the previous few. 

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

1 hour ago, Fumbleweed said:

Again, what other choice did the PGA have on the "bannings"? It's not like the guys could have met the requirements for both tours anyway.

I didn’t want to get into it in this thread when it’s been done to death in the Saudi thread but the PGA could have done nothing. LIV is just another tour who decided to operate a little differently by giving contracts (that don’t keep their players from playing on other tours if allowed).
PGA doesn’t care when their players go play a Euro tour event. Why? Because no PGA star is going to start playing Euro full time… but top Euro talent will wind up jumping to the PGA full time, moving to the USA etc… we’ve seen it time and again. But with LIV the PGA has nothing to gain so it uses bans as a threat out of spite because it hasn’t had to face any type of competition before. LIV has 14 events. PGA needs what? 15 to keep their cards? So a LIV guy would have to play 29 weeks to play both. We would certainly see which guys just wanted the money and which really cared about the time off / less rounds etc.

In my opinion PGA should not have gone the ban route and maybe just increased their event requirement to keep their status. That would have weeded some out. But really the PGAs best way to combat LIV is by contracting. Currently their response is too convoluted. Elevated events, night golf series, the PIP that no one understand, etc. 

[Fumbleweed 547]

I don’t think anyone this side of Sungjae Im plays 30 times a year, though. 

[edjr 6,580]

17 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

I didn’t want to get into it in this thread when it’s been done to death in the Saudi thread but the PGA could have done nothing. LIV is just another tour who decided to operate a little differently by giving contracts (that don’t keep their players from playing on other tours if allowed).
PGA doesn’t care when their players go play a Euro tour event. Why? Because no PGA star is going to start playing Euro full time… but top Euro talent will wind up jumping to the PGA full time, moving to the USA etc… we’ve seen it time and again. But with LIV the PGA has nothing to gain so it uses bans as a threat out of spite because it hasn’t had to face any type of competition before. LIV has 14 events. PGA needs what? 15 to keep their cards? So a LIV guy would have to play 29 weeks to play both. We would certainly see which guys just wanted the money and which really cared about the time off / less rounds etc.

In my opinion PGA should not have gone the ban route and maybe just increased their event requirement to keep their status. That would have weeded some out. But really the PGAs best way to combat LIV is by contracting. Currently their response is too convoluted. Elevated events, night golf series, the PIP that no one understand, etc. 

 

 

Quote

 

SI's Alex Miceli reported that LIV contracts have a penalty clause that would require players to pay two, three or four times their signing bonuses in order to break agreements. Do the math: a contract with a $100 million signing bonus may cost $400 million to get out of.

Even as LIV players compete for $25 million purses at each event with $4 million individual first-place prizes, plus a $50 million team championship at season's end, one could see why that clause virtually assures there will be no early departures from the Saudi-backed league.  

 

 

 

 

[edjr 6,580]

18 hours ago, bostonlager said:

Our draft next week will be much more interesting than the previous few. 

1. Rory McIlroy-

2. Jon Rahm- 

3. Patrick Cantlay

[bostonlager 2,665]

1 minute ago, edjr said:

1. Rory McIlroy-

2. Jon Rahm- 

3. Patrick Cantlay

14. Cam Smiff??

18. Dustin Johnson???

44. Byrson DeChambeau ???

[edjr 6,580]

Just now, bostonlager said:

14. Cam Smiff??

18. Dustin Johnson???

44. Byrson DeChambeau ???

I was quoting Fumble

 

[bostonlager 2,665]

1 minute ago, edjr said:

I was quoting Fumble

 

Got you. 

[listen2me 23 1,873]

Lets talk bets.  The market will reset again here Sunday or Monday.   No one bets long shots here and the top of the board gets squeezed.  

I through a flier on Conners 80 to 1 thr other day.  He has good history here so jumped at that number.  

Otherwise having a hard time picking guys I like.  I usually bet numbers not golfers but thats probably not a good idea at the Masters.  Having trouble pulling the trigger because it just seems one of the big 3 will probably win.   One of them will be dialed in.  But I don't bet those types of numbers in golf.  

Avoiding Speef.  Hes great here and can randomly get in sync.  But he can't be trusted over putts.  Tons of clean up 5 or 6 footers here.  I can't watch him miss all week.  

Big Zal and HOV guy usually.   But unfortunately can't bet them. Had planned on Zal but after watching his putting stroke in thr match play.  Pass.  HOV just doesn't set up well here with tricky short game shots.  He can't hit straight forward chips well.  

Hard to watch JT putt as well but on my radar at 22 to 1.  Masters isn't his jam necessarily but he has a couple nice finishes as of late.  

Day 33 to 1.  I have a rule not to bet Day who will just WD on me but like this number.   

Im 40 to 1.  Never know what to do with Im.  I play him a lot.  He is better than this number and has played well here.  

[edjr 6,580]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:58 PM, Fumbleweed said:

How could they have played both tours? The PGA has always required its members to play a certain number of events and I don't think LIV guys could do that anyway. 

How many does Tiger play per year? I will hang up and listen

[Fumbleweed 547]

4 hours ago, edjr said:

How many does Tiger play per year? I will hang up and listen

Lifetime membership. He's not subject to anything anymore. 

[edjr 6,580]

4 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

Lifetime membership. He's not subject to anything anymore. 

Phil has that too no?

 

Quote

If a PGA Tour player wins 20 PGA Tour events in their career, they instantly obtain lifetime membership whenever they hit that milestone. They can never lose PGA Tour status, no matter how they play for rest of their career,

 

[dain11279 976]

Spoiler alert: I will not be drafting any LIV guys

[BufordT 434]

Made my donation on Justin Rose at +6000. & Tom Hoge at +11000

[Bert 1,128]

Just when you think Gary Player can't be a bigger self-promoting, worthless, POS he raises the bar.  

[dain11279 976]

Weather gonna be ass on the weekend. Is it too much to ask for it to be nice for our favorite golf tourney of the year?

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:44 AM, Fumbleweed said:

I don’t think anyone this side of Sungjae Im plays 30 times a year, though. 

Just saying, it’s doable. And a better idea than slapping bans. If guys don’t want to play that much than the tour doesn’t have to worry about them anyway, no?

[Fumbleweed 547]

11 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

Just saying, it’s doable. And a better idea than slapping bans. If guys don’t want to play that much than the tour doesn’t have to worry about them anyway, no?

That would have been a better look, yes. Force them to play 15 to keep membership as has always been the case instead of a ban

[Cruzer 1,995]

Rory played 9 with Brooks today? Wow, pretty cool.