GutterBoy Alleges That: "There Is No Logic Coming From Jordan Peterson" (Let's Explore That)

[jerryskids 6,579]

9 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Yeah and I explained to you why it's not terrible.  If you're leveling the charge of fraud for profit, then it relates across the industry.

Well I said "not exactly" and went on to explain why this is a systemic issue of our society lauding and encouraging people to identify as trans (rather than deal with their true issues of personality disorders, anxiety, depression, hormonal changes, social awkwardness, etc.) and encouraging acceptance of such self-diagnoses by said clinics.

[The Real timschochet 6,480]

Last night Nikki Haley complained about trans athletes and said “no wonder so many of our young girls commit suicide.” 
 

There are probably less than 100 trans athletes in the United States. 

[paulinstl 296]

19 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

WTF? That’s where your sick mind goes? Fockin creep. 

No, I was making a joke at your expense insinuating that you are probably a cheap mofo. Every cop or even people who claimed they were cops are cheap.

[The Real timschochet 6,480]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Well I said "not exactly" and went on to explain why this is a systemic issue of our society lauding and encouraging people to identify as trans (rather than deal with their true issues of personality disorders, anxiety, depression, hormonal changes, social awkwardness, etc.) and encouraging acceptance of such self-diagnoses by said clinics.

There is absolutely no statistical evidence that what you’re talking about here is happening. You’ve got some anecdotes pushed by questionable sources and that’s it. The vast majority of those who undergo gender affirming treatment are happy with the results and have no regrets whatsoever. They don’t have “true issues” other than the dysphoria that caused the need for the treatment in the first place. Society doesn’t talk them into anything, neither do the clinics. 

[RogerDodger 797]

17 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So Gutterboy was for mutilation, then against it, now he’s for it. Miss your meds again? 

Anxiety and depression, probably some sort of dysphoria going on. 

[seafoam1 2,815]

Just now, RogerDodger said:

Anxiety and depression, probably some sort of dysphoria going on. 

yeah.

[seafoam1 2,815]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is absolutely no statistical evidence that what you’re talking about here is happening. You’ve got some anecdotes pushed by questionable sources and that’s it. The vast majority of those who undergo gender affirming treatment are happy with the results and have no regrets whatsoever. They don’t have “true issues” other than the dysphoria that caused the need for the treatment in the first place. Society doesn’t talk them into anything, neither do the clinics. 

Same with this idiot.

[dogcows 1,030]

30 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Children, under no circumstances, should be mutilated. Yes, I know better than doctors.  I’d kill one if they ever did that to my child. And whoever assisted them. 

Are you anti-Semitic? You’re saying that circumcision should be illegal.

[The Real timschochet 6,480]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

Same with this idiot.

The grownups are talking. Go back to the small table. 

[jerryskids 6,579]

6 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids I believe your concern that the number of transgender clinics has exploded in recent years is based on a misconception that the number of those who identify as transgender has also exploded. This is, IMO, is false:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-study-estimates-16-million-us-identify-transgender-2022-06-10/

Based on a study from last year, 1.6 million Americans identify as transgender. That’s a tiny percentage of the population. But my theory is that these folks were always around: because of greater social acceptance in our current day they are willing to admit it openly, both to others and themselves. Before, it was hidden away. It still is for many: you can bet that the actual number is much higher than 1.6 million. But this is why the number of clinics have exploded, to fulfill a need that has always been there, but never revealed until now. 
 

My main concern is that this backlash against trans from conservatives will cause many of them to go back into hiding, will all that entails. And the suicides will increase. 

 

Thanks, and I also want to make sure that folks with true gender dysphoria get the appropriate care and counseling they need.

Looking at your link tho, a few things:

Quote

June 10 (Reuters) - A study published on Friday estimates that nearly 1.64 million people over the age of 13 in the United States identify themselves as transgender, based on an analysis of newly expanded federal health surveys.

The study estimates that about 0.5% of all U.S. adults, some 1.3 million people, and about 1.4%, or 300,000, of youth between 13- and 17-years-old identify as transgender, having a different gender identity than the sex they were assigned at birth.

One, the survey is self-identifying.  That's a red flag as I've mentioned several times; it isn't based on professional diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

Two, given that it is based on self-reporting, why do you think 3X of teens identify as trans vs. adults?  Shouldn't those numbers be roughly the same?  My argument is that social contagion explains the additional 2X.  It's an anonymous self-report -- what is your explanation?

 

[dogcows 1,030]

10 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Well I said "not exactly" and went on to explain why this is a systemic issue of our society lauding and encouraging people to identify as trans (rather than deal with their true issues of personality disorders, anxiety, depression, hormonal changes, social awkwardness, etc.) and encouraging acceptance of such self-diagnoses by said clinics.

You don’t know that is really what the problem is. You’re not a doctor or a psychologist. Let’s leave this to doctors and parents.

[dogcows 1,030]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks, and I also want to make sure that folks with true gender dysphoria get the appropriate care and counseling they need.

Looking at your link tho, a few things:

One, the survey is self-identifying.  That's a red flag as I've mentioned several times; it isn't based on professional diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

Two, given that it is based on self-reporting, why do you think 3X of teens identify as trans vs. adults?  Shouldn't those numbers be roughly the same?  My argument is that social contagion explains the additional 2X.  It's an anonymous self-report -- what is your explanation?

 

I can’t speak for Tim, but we know with gay and lesbian people that most were closeted when being gay was socially unacceptable. Many older gay people stayed closeted even after homosexuality gained societal acceptance.

Once it became safe, they stopped hiding. Why would you think this is any different?

[The Real timschochet 6,480]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

Thanks, and I also want to make sure that folks with true gender dysphoria get the appropriate care and counseling they need.

Looking at your link tho, a few things:

One, the survey is self-identifying.  That's a red flag as I've mentioned several times; it isn't based on professional diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

Two, given that it is based on self-reporting, why do you think 3X of teens identify as trans vs. adults?  Shouldn't those numbers be roughly the same?  My argument is that social contagion explains the additional 2X.  It's an anonymous self-report -- what is your explanation?

 

Absolutely they should NOT be roughly the same. All of the social changes in our society, particularly acceptance of LGBTQ, is far more popular with the young people. Us older folks are often trapped by the prejudices we were raised with. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,966]

3 minutes ago, dogcows said:

Are you anti-Semitic? You’re saying that circumcision should be illegal.

Another idiot. That’s the best you can do? Ok. I’ll go for mutilation to the same degree. They can cut off a tiney piece of skin. You people are so Fockin dumb. Imagine talking to someone who spouted such stupidity in real life?  It’s like equating getting your ears pierced to cutting off the whole ear. 

[seafoam1 2,815]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

I can’t speak for Tim, but we know with gay and lesbian people that most were closeted when being gay was socially unacceptable. Many older gay people stayed closeted even after homosexuality gained societal acceptance.

Once it became safe, they stopped hiding. Why would you think this is any different?

You have gender issues too. Maybe Timmy will hold you again tonight.

[seafoam1 2,815]

Gay people don't fit in with nature.  

Trannies even less.

Why do liberals think they are above nature?

[jerryskids 6,579]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is absolutely no statistical evidence that what you’re talking about here is happening. You’ve got some anecdotes pushed by questionable sources and that’s it. The vast majority of those who undergo gender affirming treatment are happy with the results and have no regrets whatsoever. They don’t have “true issues” other than the dysphoria that caused the need for the treatment in the first place. Society doesn’t talk them into anything, neither do the clinics. 

There is certainly statistical evidence correlating the things I listed to trans:

https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/transgender-individuals-at-greater-risk-of-mental-health-problems/

Quote

The study also found that transgender individuals who had undergone gender-affirming surgery were significantly less likely to seek mental health treatment for depression and anxiety disorders as a function of years since the procedure.

This is a great (and unfortunate) example of people undergoing gender-altering surgery in lieu of treating depression and anxiety.

Quote

Abstract
Background: Co-morbid psychiatric disorders affect prognosis, psychosocial adjustment and post-surgery satisfaction in patients with gender identity disorder. In this paper, we assessed the frequency of personality disorders in Iranian GID patients.

Methods: Seventy- three patients requesting sex reassignment surgery (SRS) were recruited for this crosssectional study. Of the participants, 57.5% were biologically male and 42.5% were biologically female. They were assessed through the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory II (MCMI- II).

Results: The frequency of personality disorders was 81.4%. The most frequent personality disorder was narcissistic personality disorder (57.1%) and the least was borderline personality disorder. The average number of diagnoses was 3.00 per patient.

Conclusion: The findings of this study revealed that the prevalence of personality disorders was higher among the participants, and the most frequent personality disorder was narcissistic personality disorder (57.1%), and borderline personality disorder was less common among the studied patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Regarding your regret statement "no regrets whatsoever" sounds like your are lapsing back into "full stop" territory.  I will say though, and I can't emphasize this enough:  any data you find on regrets or post-intervention satisfaction in general comes from BEFORE the social contagion of the past few years.  We simply do not know how much damage we are doing now.  Some European countries have started to figure it out, but we unfortunately choose not to learn from them.

[seafoam1 2,815]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

Gay people don't fit in with nature.  

Trannies even less.

Why do liberals think they are above nature?

This. 

[jerryskids 6,579]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

This. 

Did you just quote yourself from two minutes ago?   

[Hardcore troubadour 14,966]

20 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

No, I was making a joke at your expense insinuating that you are probably a cheap mofo. Every cop or even people who claimed they were cops are cheap.

Really? I got worms lost a bet to me for a decent chunk of change. I didn’t take his money, had him donate to a charity, not even for the full amount. When a geek died a few years ago I donated and matched a donation of another geek. I bet you have a Ukraine flag on your apartment door. Donate any money to the refugees ? I have. Now Stfu.  

[RogerDodger 797]

7 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Really? I got worms lost a bet to me for a decent chunk of change. I didn’t take his money, had him donate to a charity, not even for the full amount. When a geek died a few years ago I donated and matched a donation of another geek. I bet you have a Ukraine flag on your apartment door. Donate any money to the refugees ? I have. Now Stfu.  

[seafoam1 2,815]

14 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Did you just quote yourself from two minutes ago?   

Yep. 

Are you still gay?

Hope you got rid of your children diddling habit.

[jerryskids 6,579]

16 minutes ago, dogcows said:

I can’t speak for Tim, but we know with gay and lesbian people that most were closeted when being gay was socially unacceptable. Many older gay people stayed closeted even after homosexuality gained societal acceptance.

Once it became safe, they stopped hiding. Why would you think this is any different?

 

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Absolutely they should NOT be roughly the same. All of the social changes in our society, particularly acceptance of LGBTQ, is far more popular with the young people. Us older folks are often trapped by the prejudices we were raised with. 

The answer is somewhere in between, but this is where we fundamentally differ.  I think the majority is attributable to the social contagion we are experiencing, whereas you both think these numbers have always been this way and people are just more comfortable admitting it.  Basically you believe what Maher shows, although not facetiously concludes.  Watch the first 30 seconds or so:

 

We won't reach 100% of course but, mathematically, it is highly unlikely that this curve goes down for the next generation, given its trajectory.  At best it slows down (or mathematically, the second derivative reverses).  Looking somewhat like his extrapolation, but more severely.  Still, it implies numbers that makes one question how our species continues to exist.

[jerryskids 6,579]

2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Yep. 

Are you still gay?

Good one.  I find your narcissistic need to be seen in threads like this to be funny when I'm just reading them, and annoying when we are attempting to have a debate.  In this case I find it annoying, and distracting unless you have something constructive to add.  

[seafoam1 2,815]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Good one.  I find your narcissistic need to be seen in threads like this to be funny when I'm just reading them, and annoying when we are attempting to have a debate.  In this case I find it annoying, and distracting unless you have something constructive to add.  

So you're still gay?

Simple question. 

[dogcows 1,030]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

 

The answer is somewhere in between, but this is where we fundamentally differ.  I think the majority is attributable to the social contagion we are experiencing, whereas you both think these numbers have always been this way and people are just more comfortable admitting it.  Basically you believe what Maher shows, although not facetiously concludes.  Watch the first 30 seconds or so:

 

We won't reach 100% of course but, mathematically, it is highly unlikely that this curve goes down for the next generation, given its trajectory.  At best it slows down (or mathematically, the second derivative reverses).  Looking somewhat like his extrapolation, but more severely.  Still, it implies numbers that makes one question how our species continues to exist.

You are certainly welcome to believe this based on your personal experiences. However, some of us have very different lived experiences, which include friendships and working relationships with people who were closeted many years before being gay was acceptable. Maybe you didn’t know many people like that, or maybe you did and just didn’t know it.

I’ve never seen any evidence that homosexuality is a social contagion. They were there the whole time; you just didn’t see them publicly, so you think it’s a new thing or that it’s growing exponentially. Considering how long LGBTQ status has been deemed acceptable by society, the data set is way too small to draw any conclusions. Give it 50 years from the date of Obergefell v Hodges and I think you’ll see a huge spike at the beginning followed by a plateau.

[jerryskids 6,579]

2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

So you're still gay?

Simple question. 

No seafoam1, I am not and never have been gay.

[seafoam1 2,815]

Just now, jerryskids said:

No seafoam1, I am not and never have been gay.

Good one. 

[paulinstl 296]

19 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Really? I got worms lost a bet to me for a decent chunk of change. I didn’t take his money, had him donate to a charity, not even for the full amount. When a geek died a few years ago I donated and matched a donation of another geek. I bet you have a Ukraine flag on your apartment door. Donate any money to the refugees ? I have. Now Stfu.  

A joke, nothing more. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on your back. I'm sure you a great humanitarian, your posts sure point that way. 

[seafoam1 2,815]

5 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

A joke, nothing more. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on your back. I'm sure you a great humanitarian, your posts sure point that way. 

A joke just like all the liberal leaders of St. Louis allowing all the murders in that shlt city you support.

[jerryskids 6,579]

2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

You are certainly welcome to believe this based on your personal experiences. However, some of us have very different lived experiences, which include friendships and working relationships with people who were closeted many years before being gay was acceptable. Maybe you didn’t know many people like that, or maybe you did and just didn’t know it.

I’ve never seen any evidence that homosexuality is a social contagion. They were there the whole time; you just didn’t see them publicly, so you think it’s a new thing or that it’s growing exponentially. Considering how long LGBTQ status has been deemed acceptable by society, the data set is way too small to draw any conclusions. Give it 50 years from the date of Obergefell v Hodges and I think you’ll see a huge spike at the beginning followed by a plateau.

Believe what exactly?  The data which shows 20% and growing exponentially?  I believe that this is the data people are self-reporting, but I question its accuracy.  Where do you think it ends?

As for personal experience, my first cousin was gay (died, hence the "was"), and her niece is gay.  My daughter was a theater kid in HS and our house was the island of misfit toys for those kids, including one boy who moved in and out of trans depending on how sh1tty his sh1tty home life was at the time.  In 1990, one year out of college, a coworker transitioned from male to female, spending a year living and dressing as a female before any medical interventions were performed.

In all cases I treated and continue to treat the individuals with the utmost of personal respect.

Having three adult children including two daughters who survived through puberty and adolescence, in a time of Tumblr defining what seemed like a gender per day and things like cultural appropriation, to me it is clear that there is a social phenomenon at work.  

[GutterBoy 2,898]

12 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

A joke, nothing more. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on your back. I'm sure you a great humanitarian, your posts sure point that way. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,966]

19 minutes ago, paulinstl said:

A joke, nothing more. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on your back. I'm sure you a great humanitarian, your posts sure point that way. 

I’ve done plenty for others. You haven’t a clue. And risked a lot more than you ever could. 

[jerryskids 6,579]

So, having somewhat hijacked @Blue Horseshoe's thread, I want to address part of a post he made on page 5 from Peterson, which highlights some points I've been making:

Quote

Subjective feeling is not a negotiated identity of the sophisticated and socially-integrated form. It is instead, something akin to raw emotion – something shallow, impulsive, and mutable; something that does not iterate well, in its hedonic excesses, across social situations or time. Thus, those who argue that that emotion (in its most short-term manifestation) must be, ethically and by law, the determining measure of “identity,” of clinical and medical practice, and of legal personhood, are insisting with force on the adoption of an idea as imprudent and immature as can possibly be conceptualized....

...This is an unquestioned tenet of proper clinical practice, although the APA and the other professional organizations that hypothetically regulate such things have thrown that all out the window in their rush to validate subjective feeling. This is unethical in the extreme, by the standards of practice simultaneously insisted upon by the same organizations. It is simply not appropriate for clinicians to rely solely on the subjective reports of their clients or research subjects. It is in fact clear malpractice for them to do so – and that malpractice is heightened in its unethical pathology when it is further insisted that subjective self-report is not only sufficient but necessarily trumps all other actual and potential sources of evidence....

...Anorexics and bulimics are not too fat despite their belief in their own overweight status. Those who are suicidal do not deserve or have a right to their own death merely because they are depressed and feeling useless to the point of despair. People with obsessive compulsive disorder are not contaminated to the point of using a whole bar of soap during a single shower, despite believing that they have become unacceptably dirty. Paranoid people are not being persecuted by the CIA. Schizophrenics with religious delusions are not the holy figures they imagine themselves to be, and manics are not correct in their assumptions of grandiose destiny. Period. The end. And any therapists who beg to differ – or who are insisting that all that may be true but somehow does not apply in the case of “gender dysphoria” – have abdicated their professional responsibility and are violating the deepest ethics of their profession...This is particularly true when those offering the subjective self-report are children, whose testimony in relationship to self must be considered in light of their comparative immaturity and limited knowledge of self, past, present and future....

I believe that the APA has absolutely rushed to validate subjective feelings on this subject.  The last paragraph is key:  I've tried to argue this before -- "trans" these days is very similar to past contagions of anorexia, bulimia, cutting... all real things in their own right, but they were the method du jour of (mostly) confused/hormonal teens to express their displeasure and want for attention.  The difference now is that we don't attempt to address that, but rather we embrace and encourage it.

[Strike 5,234]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Last night Nikki Haley complained about trans athletes and said “no wonder so many of our young girls commit suicide.” 
 

There are probably less than 100 trans athletes in the United States. 

Each "elite" trans athlete such as Lia Thomas impacts a large number of biological females.  It's not a one to one relationship. 

[dogcows 1,030]

48 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Believe what exactly?  The data which shows 20% and growing exponentially?  I believe that this is the data people are self-reporting, but I question its accuracy.  Where do you think it ends?

As for personal experience, my first cousin was gay (died, hence the "was"), and her niece is gay.  My daughter was a theater kid in HS and our house was the island of misfit toys for those kids, including one boy who moved in and out of trans depending on how sh1tty his sh1tty home life was at the time.  In 1990, one year out of college, a coworker transitioned from male to female, spending a year living and dressing as a female before any medical interventions were performed.

In all cases I treated and continue to treat the individuals with the utmost of personal respect.

Having three adult children including two daughters who survived through puberty and adolescence, in a time of Tumblr defining what seemed like a gender per day and things like cultural appropriation, to me it is clear that there is a social phenomenon at work.  

An expert in systems would know that you can’t draw reasonable conclusions from the dataset you provided there. As I said, you are welcome to believe it if you want. But the dataset is way too small to support such an assertion.

Ask yourself also: where is that data coming from? How long was it collected in that fashion? Did they ask the same questions 50 years ago that they are asking now?

I don’t doubt for a moment that you treat all people with respect. Despite our various disagreements, that is definitely consistent with your posts here.

[jerryskids 6,579]

17 minutes ago, dogcows said:

An expert in systems would know that you can’t draw reasonable conclusions from the dataset you provided there. As I said, you are welcome to believe it if you want. But the dataset is way too small to support such an assertion.

Ask yourself also: where is that data coming from? How long was it collected in that fashion? Did they ask the same questions 50 years ago that they are asking now?

I don’t doubt for a moment that you treat all people with respect. Despite our various disagreements, that is definitely consistent with your posts here.

Interestingly, by objective measures I'm somewhat of an expert in systems from a scientific perspective.  Which is not to say I've dug into the Maher data, because I haven't.  But more importantly, I understand at a high level how systems work, and the numbers and trajectory for the trans stuff here just don't work.

I appreciate the acknowledgment of treating people with respect.  I would never do otherwise.  That doesn't mean I don't object to the systems which enable/create the issues I've described. 

Do you honestly not see social contagion going on?  To me it is obvious to anyone who has or has had teens (particularly girls) that it is happening.  But at the end of the day it is my opinion.  

[dogcows 1,030]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Interestingly, by objective measures I'm somewhat of an expert in systems from a scientific perspective.  Which is not to say I've dug into the Maher data, because I haven't.  But more importantly, I understand at a high level how systems work, and the numbers and trajectory for the trans stuff here just don't work.

I appreciate the acknowledgment of treating people with respect.  I would never do otherwise.  That doesn't mean I don't object to the systems which enable/create the issues I've described. 

Do you honestly not see social contagion going on?  To me it is obvious to anyone who has or has had teens (particularly girls) that it is happening.  But at the end of the day it is my opinion.  

I do agree that social contagion exists. Look at the haircuts in the 80s. But one other way to look at it? Being something other than heterosexual was taboo for so long that many forced themselves to believe they weren’t.

Perhaps heterosexual monogamy was the social contagion for centuries, and people are just now expressing their real selves more often?

There was a time not long ago that divorce was considerably more rare. Then, after years of gradual increases, in 10 years … from 1967 to 1977, the divorce rate doubled - thanks to laws allowing no-fault divorce. If one were to look at that chart in 1980, it would have appeared that divorce would double every year and become inevitable for every couple… but it eventually plateaued and divorce actually went down in the past decade.

So, I think the answer on LGBTQ is probably a bit of both. In the divorce story, a lot of people probably wanted divorces but couldn’t get one, so there was a flood of them when laws changed. But there were probably a small percentage of people who hadn’t considered divorce but saw what was happening and decided to get one.

I don’t doubt there are some people who might “explore their sexuality” now that homosexuality/bisexuality is more acceptable. But I believe the numbers will normalize to something like the 10% that has been estimated for many, many years. As for transgender people, while I suppose some non-trans people might try cross-dressing or experimenting with their identity, I think people who are not actually transgender are highly unlikely to take steps such as hormone therapy or surgery. IMO, it’s just not worth worrying about.

[avoiding injuries 1,517]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Each "elite" trans athlete such as Lia Thomas impacts a large number of biological females.  It's not a one to one relationship. 

Interestingly enough, my 13yo daughter played a soccer game against a boy transitioning this past weekend. We must have hit the lottery playing against 1 of the ~100 in the country. 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

3 hours ago, jerryskids said:

So, having somewhat hijacked @Blue Horseshoe's thread, I want to address part of a post he made on page 5 from Peterson, which highlights some points I've been making:

I believe that the APA has absolutely rushed to validate subjective feelings on this subject.  The last paragraph is key:  I've tried to argue this before -- "trans" these days is very similar to past contagions of anorexia, bulimia, cutting... all real things in their own right, but they were the method du jour of (mostly) confused/hormonal teens to express their displeasure and want for attention.  The difference now is that we don't attempt to address that, but rather we embrace and encourage it.

Saying that anorexia, bulimia and cutting are just confused teens looking for attention just proves you don't know what you're talking about