Trump defies the courts, Sends migrants to El Sal Prison

[jerryskids 6,557]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Your back must hurt from the goalposts you just moved.   I’ve never said he shouldn’t be deported (because he entered the country illegally).  But the evidence of him being a gang member is flimsy at best, and I think people like JD Vance definitively stating that he is is wrong.

Again, at best, one judge did that.   All the current evidence suggests that the judges saw the same evidence we did, a report filed by a dirty cop based primarily on a claim from a criminal informant and pieces of clothing.

Also, the “80” side of this is the one that respects the Supreme Court.  There are even plenty of Republicans on that side as well. IIRC, didn’t even you say we should ask for him back? 

I didn't move any goalposts.

I've said at least twice in the last page or so that we should get him back.

I was unclear about the 80/20 part:  propping this gang banger up as an awesome guy is the 20 side.  Getting him back is the majority, but I doubt 80/20.

But since you went there:  what do you believe is the motivation of the "dirty cop" to have like about Garcia?  Was he just feeling particularly evil that day?

Also, you seem to think one judge doesn't matter, but one judge issued the stay solely on the statements of the gang banger.  Would you say that is compelling evidence?

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

@jerryskids I appreciate that ultimately, though we might differ on details, you agree that this guy should be returned. 
 

But the question is, if the Trump Administration refuses to do anything about this (and at least so far that is the case) what should the SC do in your opinion? 

[TimHauck 2,603]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

I didn't move any goalposts.

I've said at least twice in the last page or so that we should get him back.

I was unclear about the 80/20 part:  propping this gang banger up as an awesome guy is the 20 side.  Getting him back is the majority, but I doubt 80/20.

But since you went there:  what do you believe is the motivation of the "dirty cop" to have like about Garcia?  Was he just feeling particularly evil that day?

Also, you seem to think one judge doesn't matter, but one judge issued the stay solely on the statements of the gang banger.  Would you say that is compelling evidence?

You just moved them again. Or maybe more accurately, are making a strawman argument.  The main argument isn’t that Garcia “is an awesome guy.”  It’s that we should try to get him back.

I never said the one judge’s decision “didn’t ’matter,” I said they didn’t really rule that he was MS-13.  They basically just said there was a high enough chance he was to deny bail, which I’m fine with.  And yet people like you continue to use that to make definitive statements that he’s a “gang banger.”

Not sure of the dirty cop’s possible motivations.  Based on his name he was Hispanic himself, maybe he didn’t like people coming here illegally making some people judge all Hispanics.  Maybe he demanded money and Garcia didn’t have any.   Maybe Garcia was his weed dealer but he didn’t have any that day for Mendez to get his fix.  Maybe Garcia was focking the same prostitute he was.   Lots of potential reasons, or maybe just a dirty cop being a dirty cop for no reason at all.

[Horseman 2,353]

6 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids I appreciate that ultimately, though we might differ on details, you agree that this guy should be returned. 
 

But the question is, if the Trump Administration refuses to do anything about this (and at least so far that is the case) what should the SC do in your opinion? 

Nobody can force El Salvador to give him back dumbass. Except maybe Trump if he really wanted to.  So sad.  

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

34 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

@jerryskids I appreciate that ultimately, though we might differ on details, you agree that this guy should be returned. 
 

But the question is, if the Trump Administration refuses to do anything about this (and at least so far that is the case) what should the SC do in your opinion? 

They could release Mecha-Rehnquist.  It has been in development for several years.  They have finaly perfected the eye lasers and its photon hand grenades,  not to mention its temporary paralysis bad breath.  Mecha-Rehnquist is an unstoppable force dedicated to enforcing Supreme Court Orders and answerable to no one, except Mecha-Sandra Day O'Connor.  

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

6 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

They could release Mecha-Rehnquist.  It has been in development for several years.  They have finaly perfected the eye lasers and its photon hand grenades  not to mention its temporary paralysis bad breath.  Mecha-Rehnquist is an unstoppable force dedicated to enforcing Supreme Court Orders and anserable to no one, except Mecha-Sandra Day O'Connor.  

Is this kind of like Johnny Sokko and his Giant Robot, except with Supreme Court justices? 
 

 

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Is this kind of like Johnny Sokko and his Giant Robot, except with Supreme Court justices? 
 

 

More akin to mecha-Streisand.

 

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

4 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

More akin to mecha-Streisand.

 

Ahh I had forgotten that. But she is defeated by Mothman Robert Smith, right? 

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

If Trump defies the Supremes they can issue a show cause order for him to appear and answer why.  If he answers unsatisfactorily he can be placed in their subterranian dungeon, if he does not appear they can issue a writ and have Dog the Bounty Hunter go after him.

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Ahh I had forgotten that. But she is defeated by Mothman Robert Smith, right? 

I believe it was a Mothra, not a Mothman.  Two different things to my understanding though it may be that Mothmen grow into Mothras given time, I really don't know.  Does anybody?.

[jerryskids 6,557]

2 hours ago, TimHauck said:

You just moved them again. Or maybe more accurately, are making a strawman argument.  The main argument isn’t that Garcia “is an awesome guy.”  It’s that we should try to get him back.

I never said the one judge’s decision “didn’t ’matter,” I said they didn’t really rule that he was MS-13.  They basically just said there was a high enough chance he was to deny bail, which I’m fine with.  And yet people like you continue to use that to make definitive statements that he’s a “gang banger.”

Not sure of the dirty cop’s possible motivations.  Based on his name he was Hispanic himself, maybe he didn’t like people coming here illegally making some people judge all Hispanics.  Maybe he demanded money and Garcia didn’t have any.   Maybe Garcia was his weed dealer but he didn’t have any that day for Mendez to get his fix.  Maybe Garcia was focking the same prostitute he was.   Lots of potential reasons, or maybe just a dirty cop being a dirty cop for no reason at all.

Doubling down on Saint Garcia and the 20 side I see...

I've stated at least 3 times in this thread now (make it 4) that I think we should try to get him back.  This part of the discussion is idiotic and I'm done with it.  Take the win you crave, even though I said it before you became a yip yip dog.

The courts ruled that there was sufficient evidence that he was/is MS-13 to withhold bail.  Do we do that willy nilly?  No, it must have been compelling to the judge.

You can invent all of the fantasies about the cop that you want, but Occam's Razor says he was generally a cop doing cop things, other than whatever shady stuff he had going on in that one scenario.  If he just made up stuff all the time, he'd have been found out and removed long ago.  HTH

 

[TimHauck 2,603]

2 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Doubling down on Saint Garcia and the 20 side I see...

I've stated at least 3 times in this thread now (make it 4) that I think we should try to get him back.  This part of the discussion is idiotic and I'm done with it.  Take the win you crave, even though I said it before you became a yip yip dog.

The courts ruled that there was sufficient evidence that he was/is MS-13 to withhold bail.  Do we do that willy nilly?  No, it must have been compelling to the judge.

You can invent all of the fantasies about the cop that you want, but Occam's Razor says he was generally a cop doing cop things, other than whatever shady stuff he had going on in that one scenario.  If he just made up stuff all the time, he'd have been found out and removed long ago.  HTH

 

lol, I literally said maybe he was a weed dealer or focking a prostitute, and somehow that is “doubling down on St Garcia.”  Never change Geek Club.    You do realize someone can not be in a gang but still not be a saint right?  The domestic violence allegations are probably the most credible allegations against him IMO.  

For the record, “Compelling” wasn’t the word the judge used.  It was “appears trustworthy.”  

The cop was suspended LESS THAN A WEEK after the report on Garcia was filed.  Occam’s razor to me would suggest that if he got caught doing something shady, there were probably other shady things he was doing where he didn’t get caught.   And even without him being a dirty cop, the “evidence” was his clothing and simply the word of a criminal informant who wasn’t even there.

[jbycho 583]

6 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

lol, I literally said maybe he was a weed dealer or focking a prostitute, and somehow that is “doubling down on St Garcia.”  Never change Geek Club.    You do realize someone can not be in a gang but still not be a saint right?  The domestic violence allegations are probably the most credible allegations against him IMO.  

For the record, “Compelling” wasn’t the word the judge used.  It was “appears trustworthy.”  

The cop was suspended LESS THAN A WEEK after the report on Garcia was filed.  Occam’s razor to me would suggest that if he got caught doing something shady, there were probably other shady things he was doing where he didn’t get caught.   And even without him being a dirty cop, the “evidence” was his clothing and simply the word of a criminal informant who wasn’t even there.

Timpee guy at work. 

[jerryskids 6,557]

8 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

lol, I literally said maybe he was a weed dealer or focking a prostitute, and somehow that is “doubling down on St Garcia.”  Never change Geek Club.    You do realize someone can not be in a gang but still not be a saint right?  The domestic violence allegations are probably the most credible allegations against him IMO.  

For the record, “Compelling” wasn’t the word the judge used.  It was “appears trustworthy.”  

The cop was suspended LESS THAN A WEEK after the report on Garcia was filed.  Occam’s razor to me would suggest that if he got caught doing something shady, there were probably other shady things he was doing where he didn’t get caught.   And even without him being a dirty cop, the “evidence” was his clothing and simply the word of a criminal informant who wasn’t even there.

Lets start slow.  Do you acknowledge that you missed the multiple times I said we should bring him back, or more likely, intentionally ignored it?

[TimHauck 2,603]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Let’s start slow.  Do you acknowledge that you missed the multiple times I said we should bring him back, or more likely, intentionally ignored it?

I may have missed you say it “multiple times,” but I literally said “IIRC you agree he should be brought back,” so clearly I wasn’t ignoring it.

So we agree.  Bringing him back is the main issue here.  Whether or not he’s a saint is irrelevant, and I never said he was. But it seems a main reason the administration is saying we shouldn’t bring him back is because “he’s a terrorist.”  But that is based on extremely flimsy evidence.  That’s all I’m saying.  I’m not even saying he’s definitely not in a gang.  But it is extremely irresponsible to say he definitely is, like you and JD Vance and countless others have done.  A singular (read: not multiple) judge thought the evidence he was in a gang was credible enough to deny him bail.  That’s it.  It did not declare him a gang member.

[Maximum Overkill 1,739]

16 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

 It did not declare him a gang member.

Thank God he wasn't a Trump voter. You'd have him dead to rights, hypocrite! 

[seafoam1 2,799]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Thank God he wasn't a Trump voter. You'd have him dead to rights, hypocrite! 

That dude tim is so stupid. Then again, aren't they all?

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

9 hours ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Thank God he wasn't a Trump voter. You'd have him dead to rights, hypocrite! 

He just wore Bulls hats because he likes Jordan. The marijuana leaf and the smiley face tats don’t represent the letters M and S. His $1200 cash at the time of arrest with other MS13 members is normal.  The 8 guys in the van were just friends he was road tripping without any luggage. He’s innocent.

[TimHauck 2,603]

16 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

His $1200 cash at the time of arrest

Fake news 

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

Remember when Obama suspended Habeas Corpus and the leftist retards mocked and dismissed anyone who was outraged by NDAA? And before any of the rabid leftist say that was different. The ACLU also says you’re retarded. 

“President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.”
 

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

1 hour ago, Dizkneelande said:

Remember when Obama suspended Habeas Corpus and the leftist retards mocked and dismissed anyone who was outraged by NDAA? And before any of the rabid leftist say that was different. The ACLU also says you’re retarded. 

“President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.”
 

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law

The ACLU was right then and right now. They usually are. You should support them with money as many of us do, they are fighting for your rights. 

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

The ACLU was right then and right now. They usually are. You should support them with money as many of us do, they are fighting for your rights. 

Show us on the fbg site where you opposed the suspension of Habeas Corpus by Obama. I won’t hold my breath. 

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

7 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

Show us on the fbg site where you opposed the suspension of Habeas Corpus by Obama. I won’t hold my breath. 

I wasn’t a fan of Obama’s policies on undocumented inmigration. Or Biden’s. Or any President since Ronald Reagan. Those who have read me for a while know I am generally in favor of open immigration and amnesty for most people already here. 
That being said. No other President has been quite as awful as Trump on this issue. It’s not close. 

[The Real timschochet 6,406]

It’s also important to note that what Obama did, reprehensible as it was, was within the law. Trump is breaking the law. 

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I wasn’t a fan of Obama’s policies on undocumented inmigration. Or Biden’s. Or any President since Ronald Reagan. Those who have read me for a while know I am generally in favor of open immigration and amnesty for most people already here. 
That being said. No other President has been quite as awful as Trump on this issue. It’s not close. 

Such a clown. You don’t even know what you are arguing yet you continue to bath in hypocrisy. What due process did Anwar al-Awlaki receive when Obama droned him out of existence? Weird you didn’t care about that either. 

[TimHauck 2,603]

14 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

Such a clown. You don’t even know what you are arguing yet you continue to bath in hypocrisy. What due process did Anwar al-Awlaki receive when Obama droned him out of existence? Weird you didn’t care about that either. 

Way more evidence this guy was a terrorist than Abrego Garcia

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

6 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Way more evidence this guy was a terrorist than Abrego Garcia

What about his 16 year old son? Both were American citizens executed without due process. You’re shonuff level retarded. Due process is only an issue for the left when there is a Republican administration running things. 

[TimHauck 2,603]

1 minute ago, Dizkneelande said:

What about his 16 year old son? Both were American citizens executed without due process. You’re shonuff level retarded. Due process is only an issue for the left when there is a Republican administration running things. 

So you agree we should try to get Abrego Garcia back here?

[Dizkneelande 1,085]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

So you agree we should try to get Abrego Garcia back here?

I agree you’re retarded. 

[TimHauck 2,603]

5 minutes ago, Dizkneelande said:

What about his 16 year old son? 

He wasn’t the target.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,829]

34 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

So you agree we should try to get Abrego Garcia back here?

When Obama killed Alakwari in a drone strike back in 2011 where were you then?  Didn't hear anything about "due process" from the left at all. 

All you liberals complaining about "due process" now are ONLY doing it because it's Trump.  You were completely fine with not giving citizens due process when your side was in power.

Time for all of you to get to the back of the bus and just enjoy the ride. The ride that YOU set precedent for.

[TimHauck 2,603]

4 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

When Obama killed Alakwari in a drone strike back in 2011 where were you then?  Didn't hear anything about "due process" from the left at all. 

All you liberals complaining about "due process" now are ONLY doing it because it's Trump.  You were completely fine with not giving citizens due process when your side was in power.

Time for all of you to get to the back of the bus and just enjoy the ride. The ride that YOU set precedent for.

I was not long out of college and didn’t follow politics.  Don’t think I had even heard of this guy until a few days ago when I saw a different righty somewhere else also bring him up as a whataboutism.

So I just did a few minutes of research about it from various sources.  I really don’t see any similarities with him and Abrego Garcia. That guy was a legit terrorist, and we had been investigating him for years, we didn’t arbitrarily decide he was a terrorist based on the word of a criminal informant and a report by a dirty cop. He helped inspire the Fort Hood attack.  I know that sometimes when fighting terrorists we need to do things that might not totally follow due process.  But we have no evidence Abrego Garcia is a terrorist, even if he is in MS-13.  MS-13 hasn’t attacked the US like Al-Qaeda did.

So yeah, I really don’t get this comparison.  And it’d be especially ironic if anyone thought Awlaki should have gotten due process while simultaneously didn’t care what happened to Abrego Garcia.  What’s even more ironic is a couple months ago right wing news outlets such as the NY Post criticized USAID for “bankrolling” Awklaki’s college tuition.  Yet that was before he showed any signs of being radicalized…

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,829]

49 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I was not long out of college and didn’t follow politics.  Don’t think I had even heard of this guy until a few days ago when I saw a different righty somewhere else also bring him up as a whataboutism.

So I just did a few minutes of research about it from various sources.  I really don’t see any similarities with him and Abrego Garcia. That guy was a legit terrorist, and we had been investigating him for years, we didn’t arbitrarily decide he was a terrorist based on the word of a criminal informant and a report by a dirty cop. He helped inspire the Fort Hood attack.  I know that sometimes when fighting terrorists we need to do things that might not totally follow due process.  But we have no evidence Abrego Garcia is a terrorist, even if he is in MS-13.  MS-13 hasn’t attacked the US like Al-Qaeda did.

So yeah, I really don’t get this comparison.  And it’d be especially ironic if anyone thought Awlaki should have gotten due process while simultaneously didn’t care what happened to Abrego Garcia.  What’s even more ironic is a couple months ago right wing news outlets such as the NY Post criticized USAID for “bankrolling” Awklaki’s college tuition.  Yet that was before he showed any signs of being radicalized…

He was a US f****** citizen. What do you mean you don't get the comparison? 

You're defending an illegal alien who's a gang member and beats his wife, but somehow you don't see the difference between him and an actual US citizen?

So what you're telling me it's okay to kill US citizens as long as you consider them a terrorist? They don't get due process at all?

If you are going to sit here and cry about due process for and illegal alien, then you must certainly sit here and cry about it for a US citizen.  And yet, here you are, making excuses as to why it's okay for your side to ignore due process.

Thanks for confirming and validating my post. It was never about due process, but it was always about Trump.

[TimHauck 2,603]

10 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

He was a US f****** citizen. What do you mean you don't get the comparison? 

You're defending an illegal alien who's a gang member and beats his wife, but somehow you don't see the difference between him and an actual US citizen?

So what you're telling me it's okay to kill US citizens as long as you consider them a terrorist? They don't get due process at all?

If you are going to sit here and cry about due process for and illegal alien, then you must certainly sit here and cry about it for a US citizen.  And yet, here you are, making excuses as to why it's okay for your side to ignore due process.

Thanks for confirming and validating my post. It was never about due process, but it was always about Trump.

Before I respond:

1) Do you think Abrego Garcia should get (or did get) due process?

2) Do you think Awlaki should have gotten due process? 

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

Illegals flooded in with no effort to interdict them and no vetting whatsoever.  Coming in there was no process because liberals wanted no process to slow the dreams of both themselves and the migrants.  Now, on the way out there has to be vetting, due process, and that is correct, it is our system, but the asymetrical nature of proces and effort required between entry and deportation show a breakdown in the system.  The system can be overwhelmed and it was intentionally so, and even evilly so by progressives.  There is one lesson from all of this.  We absolutely need to diligently, and even brutally and ruthlessly protect our border because once these illegals get here they take an inordinant amount of effort to get rid of.  They are like squatters or ex-wifes.  The next time a Tim tries to argue we shold let them in,  push back since the cost of momentary humanitarianism is a world of legal cost when they turn out to not be worthy of the human dignity they were presumptively afforded.  I am tired of shields being forged into swords.  I am tired of being abused for my tolerance. I am tired of non-citizns and non-contributors demanding more of me as if by right.

 

All that said, honor due process as that is a precious heritage, just remember the cost so the situation never arises again.  Oh, and hold the cost against those who enabled this situation.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,829]

38 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Before I respond:

1) Do you think Abrego Garcia should get (or did get) due process?

2) Do you think Awlaki should have gotten due process? 

Hey, I'm the consistent one. I don't necessarily disagree with what Obama did but I'm not the one crying about "due process".   If you're going to cry about "due process" then you most certainly need to cry about for ACTUAL American citizens, not just illegal aliens.

Also, on a more general note, I don't think illegal aliens should get any due process at all.  ZERO.

[Strike 5,185]

53 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Before I respond:

1) Do you think Abrego Garcia should get (or did get) due process?

2) Do you think Awlaki should have gotten due process? 

1) Al-Alwaki was an American citizen.  You can look through the threads about this is incident on this forum and you will see that I strongly denounced his death.  IIRC there wasn't even an indictment against him for any crime when he was killed.  How can you kill an American citizen without even an indictment?  That was murder.  Here we're simply talking about deportation.

2). Al-Alwaki had a 16 year old son, also bombed in to oblivion by Obama.  There wasn't even a suggestion that he was a terrorist.  Also an American citizen.  You gonna justify that one too?

3). Garcia got due process   He had a valid deportation order at the time he was deported.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

This is just common sense. Send them all back ASAP. The establishment wanted to use CIA trained and US taxpayer funded gangs to cause chaos in the US. The Daniel Penny case was just a preview of what they were planning.

https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1913564074559914319?s=19

"A nation in which one administration can allow millions of unvetted illegal migrants into the country, but requires that a court vet each deportation decision in an individually adjudicated case will soon lose the values our democratic system was intended to preserve."

 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,829]

17 minutes ago, Strike said:

1) Al-Alwaki was an American citizen.  You can look through the threads about this is incident on this forum and you will see that I strongly denounced his death.  IIRC there wasn't even an indictment against him for any crime when he was killed.  How can you kill an American citizen without even an indictment?  That was murder.  Here we're simply talking about deportation.

2). Al-Alwaki had a 16 year old son, also bombed in to oblivion by Obama.  There wasn't even a suggestion that he was a terrorist.  Also an American citizen.  You gonna justify that one too?

3). Garcia got due process   He had a valid deportation order at the time he was deported.

I didn't even know about #2. Wow.

But let's cry about "due process" for a wife beater, gang member and illegal alien who, in fact, actually got his due process anyways (#3).

[TimHauck 2,603]

12 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Hey, I'm the consistent one. I don't necessarily disagree with what Obama did but I'm not the one crying about "due process".   If you're going to cry about "due process" then you most certainly need to cry about for ACTUAL American citizens, not just illegal aliens.

Also, on a more general note, I don't think illegal aliens should get any due process at all.  ZERO.

I don’t think I’ve even said much about “due process” in regards to this topic.  My biggest complaint here is not following the direction of the Supreme Court.  

I disagree with due process being dependent on what country you’re a citizen of though.   Anyone that is here is entitled to due process.  But yes, I understand and accept that there might be some people killed without due process when fighting actual terrorists.  As far as I can tell there was a lot of evidence that Al-Awlaki was an actual terrorist and was involved in specific plots.  There has been no claim of any specific action that Garcia did that would make him a terrorist, other than simply being a member of MS-13, which as we know there is very flimsy evidence of to begin with.