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$20M for OBJ?! See ya..


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#41 listen2me 23

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 04:50 PM

I just don't understand the love for expensive top WRs.

Brown. Julio. Fitz. Odell. Evans. AJ Green. Hopkins. Calvin Johnson.

They have zero superbowls between themselves.

#42 cbfalcon

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 06:51 PM

I just don't understand the love for expensive top WRs.

Brown. Julio. Fitz. Odell. Evans. AJ Green. Hopkins. Calvin Johnson.

They have zero superbowls between themselves.


You could make a similar list with RBs. And Tight Ends. And Guards. And Linebackers. And Cornerbacks.
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#43 seafoam1

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:09 PM

You could make a similar list with RBs. And Tight Ends. And Guards. And Linebackers. And Cornerbacks.


Don't the top 10 WRs make more yearly than the top 10 at the other positions you mentioned? I don't know for sure but it seems like it.

#44 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:51 PM

Darrel Revis has one SB. And he had to go to the Patriots to get one. JJ Watt has won what? One playoff game? Joe Thomas? A lot of good he did. Putting it all on Wr's is silly. Was it Julios fault his coach is a moron? Fitzgeralds fault his D couldn't make a stop and Holmes made a great catch?

#45 seafoam1

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 06:43 AM

Darrel Revis has one SB. And he had to go to the Patriots to get one. JJ Watt has won what? One playoff game? Joe Thomas? A lot of good he did. Putting it all on Wr's is silly. Was it Julios fault his coach is a moron? Fitzgeralds fault his D couldn't make a stop and Holmes made a great catch?

True, it's a team game. If you think about it, if each team won 1 superbowl in a 32 year span, that's turning over personnel at minimum 3 times for each team before winning one. But we know it's a lot more than that. That leaves a whole lot of players that can never win one.

But I do think the WR position is a little over valued in terms of payroll. With a hard cap on a team made up of 50+ players, there could be an argument somewhere that says given the cap, everyone that makes $10+ million a year, except for QB, is overpaid given the concept of it being truly a team game. I mean, paying one person so much draws away from other elements of the team.

#46 MDC

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:20 AM

My non scientific look at the past 20 years of SB winners shows that very few elite WRs were on SB winning teams. The last Pro Bowler to win was Cruz in 2012. You really have to go back to 2007 when Wayne / Harrison won with the Colts to find a legitimate superstar receiver on a championship team.

I think this is mostly coincidental but I also think wideouts are vastly overpaid given that their impact on the game is pretty low as compared to linemen and other positions. Theres no way Id pay ODB anywhere near $20m since he wont be worth it on the field and hes a toxic a hole off of it.
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#47 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:12 AM

You could make a similar list with RBs. And Tight Ends. And Guards. And Linebackers. And Cornerbacks.

Who are the consistantly top teams of last 10 years? Packers Pats Seahawks. Where do they get their WRs? Pitt has been good too. But they were long before Brown and Bell. They were good because of Big Ben.

Ill keep going. Randy Moss TO Cris Carter Tim Brown. Zero rings.

WR is just an idiotic position to spend big on. Odell vs the highly touted Packers secondary was basically shut out in his only playoff game. The focking Packers took him out of the game. Thr Packers havent even gotten in anyone else's way in the last 10 years.

#48 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:15 AM

You get your QB then pick WRs in the draft as your QB makes them pro bowlers.

It is idiodic to pay a diva WR top follar with no one to throw to him. Thr Bills traded 2 1sts to move up for Sammy focking Watkins when thry didnt have anyone to throw him the ball.

It is azz backwards.

#49 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:18 AM

And it is hard to pay a real QB real money and at thr same time be strapped for 20 mill a year for 1 WR that can be taken out of the game.

#50 sirensong

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:59 PM

Darrel Revis has one SB. And he had to go to the Patriots to get one. JJ Watt has won what? One playoff game? Joe Thomas? A lot of good he did. Putting it all on Wr's is silly. Was it Julios fault his coach is a moron? Fitzgeralds fault his D couldn't make a stop and Holmes made a great catch?

 

he's making a cap allocation argument, not one directed at any particular player.  where do championship teams put heavy cap dollars, position-wise?  CB?  yep.  edge rusher?  yep.  OT? yep.

 

WR? i can't think of too many examples.  can you? 



#51 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:03 PM

My non scientific look at the past 20 years of SB winners shows that very few elite WRs were on SB winning teams. The last Pro Bowler to win was Cruz in 2012. You really have to go back to 2007 when Wayne / Harrison won with the Colts to find a legitimate superstar receiver on a championship team.

I think this is mostly coincidental but I also think wideouts are vastly overpaid given that their impact on the game is pretty low as compared to linemen and other positions. Theres no way Id pay ODB anywhere near $20m since he wont be worth it on the field and hes a toxic a hole off of it.


The Eagles just gave Jeffery a big contract.

#52 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:20 PM

Bell said in the past he wanted 15 mill a year. He touches the ball almost 400 times a year. And they wont quite give it to him.

Odell wants 20 mill a year snd touches it maybe 100 times. Talks to field goal nets. Gets shut down in his only playoff appearance. And the Giants probably pay him.

#53 sirensong

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:24 PM

The Eagles just gave Jeffery a big contract.

 

and even with that fat new contract, he's still not even top-10.  he played his SB year between pierre garcon's salary and marquise lee's.



#54 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:27 PM

 
and even with that fat new contract, he's still not even top-10.  he played his SB year between pierre garcon's salary and marquise lee's.


I'd say he's one of the highest paid eagles, who now have no cap room.

#55 cbfalcon

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:32 PM

Who are the consistantly top teams of last 10 years? Packers Pats Seahawks. Where do they get their WRs? Pitt has been good too. But they were long before Brown and Bell. They were good because of Big Ben.

Ill keep going. Randy Moss TO Cris Carter Tim Brown. Zero rings.

WR is just an idiotic position to spend big on. Odell vs the highly touted Packers secondary was basically shut out in his only playoff game. The focking Packers took him out of the game. Thr Packers havent even gotten in anyone else's way in the last 10 years.

 

We've had 4 QBs win 11 of the past 15 Super Bowls. That skews the sample size of what positions can help you win a title.  Look at the decade before these 4 QBs won 11 of 15, and you have HOF WRs like Jerry Rice winning 3, Michael Irvin winning 3, Art Monk winning 2, etc......I mean, someone could have looked at the NBA from 1999-2007 (Duncan or Shaq won 8 of 9 titles) and said guards are of no use. They could have looked at the prior decade (when Isaiah gets 2 and MJ gets 6) and argued that big men are of no use.

 

And it's not just Super Bowl or bust. Someone else could argue:

Drew Brees has made the playoffs in 7 of 17 years (41%)

Moss made the playoffs 7 of 14 years. (50%

Owens made the playoffs 8 of 15 years (53%)

Carter's teams made the playoffs 10 of 16 seasons (62%)

 

 

 


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#56 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 03:14 PM

 
We've had 4 QBs win 11 of the past 15 Super Bowls. That skews the sample size of what positions can help you win a title.  Look at the decade before these 4 QBs won 11 of 15, and you have HOF WRs like Jerry Rice winning 3, Michael Irvin winning 3, Art Monk winning 2, etc......I mean, someone could have looked at the NBA from 1999-2007 (Duncan or Shaq won 8 of 9 titles) and said guards are of no use. They could have looked at the prior decade (when Isaiah gets 2 and MJ gets 6) and argued that big men are of no use.
 
And it's not just Super Bowl or bust. Someone else could argue:
Drew Brees has made the playoffs in 7 of 17 years (41%)
Moss made the playoffs 7 of 14 years. (50%
Owens made the playoffs 8 of 15 years (53%)
Carter's teams made the playoffs 10 of 16 seasons (62%)
 
 
 


So you think the giants should pay him 20 mill a year?

#57 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 03:45 PM

If you are trying to argue that all positions matter the same besides QB then why does Travis Kelce roughly make 7 million when he is a top 2 TE who catches it a ton and blocks. On several winning teams without real stud WR play and a QB who was written off maybe twice in his career?

Kelce is worth 7 and Odell is worth 20.....riiiiight.

#58 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:01 PM

So you think the giants should pay him 20 mill a year?


Based on his play? Yes. Has the potential to be the greatest WR of all time. Based on his entitled millennial brat persona? Trade him now. A long term contract will not end well. Shame too. Him, Engram and Barkley would be quite a trio to contend with for years.

#59 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:05 PM

Based on his play? Yes. Has the potential to be the greatest WR of all time. Based on his entitled millennial brat persona? Trade him now. A long term contract will not end well. Shame too. Him, Engram and Barkley would be quite a trio to contend with for years.


Without the diva aspect 20 mill is too much in my eyes. He doesnt enhance that team to that number.

With the bagage, I think you have to be insane to pay him that. If he had the personality of Larry Fitz I could at least see it.

If you think Eli has 2 of 3 years left of ability to get this team some where then fine. I do not. And paying any WR that much before you even have a QB to get him the ball is putting the carriage before the horse.

#60 cbfalcon

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:07 PM

So you think the giants should pay him 20 mill a year?

 

Maybe.

 

Overall, I just think the arguments saying GMs should never pay big money to certain positions are shortsighted. And the evidence is so shaky and filtered. Example,If David Tyree doesn't pull of the luckiest big play in sports history, then having a weapon like Randy Moss is maybe considered the single biggest x factor in creating the greatest offense in league history. Another example, you choose to exclude someone like Marvin Harrison from the great WR's of the last 15 years list. And Jerry Rice didn't count. And so on.

 

As for OBJ specifically...I think it's better to look at percentage of the cap than it is straight dollars. Antonio Brown made 10.2% of the cap last season. $20M for OBJ would be 11.3% of the cap next season. That % goes down each season as the cap increases.....But Brown at 10%- of the cap for his age 28-32 seasons, or Beckham at 11%- of the cap for his age 25-29 seasons? ODB makes more sense from a talent standpoint.....and I feel like Wentz, Goff, Wilson, etc have reset the timelines for when you can compete for titles with a young QB. In fact, the BEST time to compete and load up with talent is when your QB is on a rookie contract.


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#61 cbfalcon

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:08 PM

If you are trying to argue that all positions matter the same besides QB then why does Travis Kelce roughly make 7 million when he is a top 2 TE who catches it a ton and blocks. On several winning teams without real stud WR play and a QB who was written off maybe twice in his career?

Kelce is worth 7 and Odell is worth 20.....riiiiight.

 

I'm not arguing that all positions are the same. I'm arguing against your inference that certain positions don't matter at all.


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#62 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:18 PM

Without the diva aspect 20 mill is too much in my eyes. He doesnt enhance that team to that number.

With the bagage, I think you have to be insane to pay him that. If he had the personality of Larry Fitz I could at least see it.

If you think Eli has 2 of 3 years left of ability to get this team some where then fine. I do not. And paying any WR that much before you even have a QB to get him the ball is putting the carriage before the horse.


Eli hasn't had an O line or a running game in years. No pass pro and no play action makes him look a lot worse than he is. I've seen him ground more balls and down himself plenty of times the last few years. He's no MVP, but he can win a super bowl or two.

#63 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:38 PM

 
Maybe.
 
Overall, I just think the arguments saying GMs should never pay big money to certain positions are shortsighted. And the evidence is so shaky and filtered. Example,If David Tyree doesn't pull of the luckiest big play in sports history, then having a weapon like Randy Moss is maybe considered the single biggest x factor in creating the greatest offense in league history. Another example, you choose to exclude someone like Marvin Harrison from the great WR's of the last 15 years list. And Jerry Rice didn't count. And so on.
 
As for OBJ specifically...I think it's better to look at percentage of the cap than it is straight dollars. Antonio Brown made 10.2% of the cap last season. $20M for OBJ would be 11.3% of the cap next season. That % goes down each season as the cap increases.....But Brown at 10%- of the cap for his age 28-32 seasons, or Beckham at 11%- of the cap for his age 25-29 seasons? ODB makes more sense from a talent standpoint.....and I feel like Wentz, Goff, Wilson, etc have reset the timelines for when you can compete for titles with a young QB. In fact, the BEST time to compete and load up with talent is when your QB is on a rookie contract.

I can agree with this.

If you have the resources to pay a top WR when you are already set at QB go for it. If you dont have a QB then it is fairly useless and a big waste.

In this particular case I think it is crazy to pay Odell that dollar with his bagage and the state of the Giants.

In the end the SB post was rather silly although it is odd that you have to basically go back to Marvin and then Rice to find a real elite WR aith a SB. In an increasing passing game to boot.

I still think WR is overrated in terms of dollars. Bell can touch it 400 times at an elite clip and not see 15. GB with a terrible defense can take Odell out of the game in the playoffs as they hopelessly force it his way and ruin the rest of the offense. And he may get 20.

Kelce to me is just as valuable if not more than Odell yet may make 12 to 13 mill less a year. You are worth what you can get on thr market and if Odell wants 20 mill then go for it. I just think WR is highly skewed in terms of what they get verses some other positions.

#64 listen2me 23

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:43 PM

 
I'm not arguing that all positions are the same. I'm arguing against your inference that certain positions don't matter at all.


Kicker matters. Im not saying WR does not at all. Im saying some of the best teams get a QB in place and surround him with guy who fit the system. Jordy Cobb and Adams were all 2nd rounders. Rodgers elevated them all to pro bowl caliber players at one point.

Not everyone can get a Rodgers. But paying a diva WR before you even try to find a top QB is just azz backwards in my opinion.

Id like them to pay him. Will be an interesting experiement and we can see how it plays out for them as they then look for their next QB.

#65 weepaws

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:15 PM

Eli hasn't had an O line or a running game in years. No pass pro and no play action makes him look a lot worse than he is. I've seen him ground more balls and down himself plenty of times the last few years. He's no MVP, but he can win a super bowl or two.


The draft of the Barkley would change that.

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#66 sirensong

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:57 PM

Eli hasn't had an O line or a running game in years. No pass pro and no play action makes him look a lot worse than he is. I've seen him ground more balls and down himself plenty of times the last few years. He's no MVP, but he can win a super bowl or two.

 

lol.

 

back when romo had no O-line, no running game, and no defense, but was still putting up top-10 numbers, we were assured that it was because he was incompetent.



#67 weepaws

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:19 PM

lol.
 
back when romo had no O-line, no running game, and no defense, but was still putting up top-10 numbers, we were assured that it was because he was incompetent.


I would agree with you about Romo.
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1 John 3:16. Lamentations 3:25. Proverbs 10:27. Ephesians 6:13 Ezekiel 18:21-22
Proverbs 15:29. Proverbs 18:12. 1 John 2:1-2. Ephesians 6:19. 2 Timothy 2:3-4
Proverbs 23:12. Psalm 121:7-8. Ephesians 1:7. Deuteronomy 28:11-13. Romans 10:10.
2 Peter 3:9. Isaiah 5:21. Proverbs 11:2. Matthews 5:16. Romans 12:14
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#68 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 10:38 PM

 
lol.
 
back when romo had no O-line, no running game, and no defense, but was still putting up top-10 numbers, we were assured that it was because he was incompetent.

Learn your history. In 2007 the cowboys had 3 pro bowl O lineman and a pro bowl RB. In 2008 he had 3 pro bowl O lineman. Shouid I keep going? Lol

#69 Hardcore troubadour

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 11:38 PM

One thing I will say on Odell's behalf: He hasn't ever shown up his QB or threw teammates under the bus, unlike TO, Moss, Chad Johnson, Chris Carter and a lot of the Divas. Never see him waving his arms or jawing at his QB. He appears to be a good teammate, and they don't say anything bad about him. A big problem with him though, which was hinted at in this past season, is that he has gotten away with some team rules like being late. It was rumored and probably true that the issues with the guys that got disciplined like Jenkins and DRC stemmed from a double standard. Mcadoo and Reese never reigned him in. And Coughlin couldn't when he had him because he was fighting for his job and ODB was his only hope to win. The Giants didn't spend and had bad drafts after 2011, not much talent was on the roster by the time ODB got there. They finally spent in 2016 and won 11 games with a fool for a head coach, and ODB was the whole offense.

#70 cbfalcon

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:59 AM

Learn your history. In 2007 the cowboys had 3 pro bowl O lineman and a pro bowl RB. In 2008 he had 3 pro bowl O lineman. Shouid I keep going? Lol


Yes actually.
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#71 ROCKFORD

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:59 PM

fitz has been good with out a consistant qb.  but even he can be shut out, i suppose.


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#72 sirensong

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:25 AM

 

We've had 4 QBs win 11 of the past 15 Super Bowls. That skews the sample size of what positions can help you win a title.  Look at the decade before these 4 QBs won 11 of 15, and you have HOF WRs like Jerry Rice winning 3, Michael Irvin winning 3, Art Monk winning 2, etc......I mean, someone could have looked at the NBA from 1999-2007 (Duncan or Shaq won 8 of 9 titles) and said guards are of no use. They could have looked at the prior decade (when Isaiah gets 2 and MJ gets 6) and argued that big men are of no use.

 

And it's not just Super Bowl or bust. Someone else could argue:

Drew Brees has made the playoffs in 7 of 17 years (41%)

Moss made the playoffs 7 of 14 years. (50%

Owens made the playoffs 8 of 15 years (53%)

Carter's teams made the playoffs 10 of 16 seasons (62%)

 

 

 

 

 

all of which happened before the salary cap.  if no cap was involved, or even a soft cap, the conversation changes.  but we're talking about one player at one position costing over 10% of a team's entire hard cap.  QB does, but he handles virtually every snap on offense, vs a WR at ~100 of the teams ~1000 snaps for a season.  edge rusher is close, but he's a tremendous influence on the opposing QB.  and of course the blindside tackle is required in order to negate the edge.

 

so where does the WR fall in that hierarchy?  is he as important as a QB?  obviously not.  how about edge rusher?  what about OT?  so that's now 5 guys who combine to earn half the salary cap, leaving the other half to split 48 ways.  let's throw in CB, so 47 guys split 40% of the cap.

 

like i said, i dearly hope NY pays beckham a mint, which will be great for the cowboys.



#73 MDC

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:51 AM

The Eagles just gave Jeffery a big contract.


Jeffrey is not a superstar or an elite receiver. HTH
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#74 TimmySmith

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:54 AM

Jeffrey is not a superstar or an elite receiver. HTH

I'd say he is, just not with the Eagles. 


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#75 MDC

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 07:15 AM

I'd say he is, just not with the Eagles. 


Jeffry hasnt had an elite season since 2014. He is a very good wideout but not a star.

He is however a Super Bowl Champion. :first:
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#76 Bills04

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

Well - OBJ is NOT going to the Rams.  They just traded their 1st rounder to NE for WR1 B. Cooks.

 

BUT - NE now has TWO 1st rounders - Rams' 23 and their own 31.  The NYG said it would take two 1st rounder to get OBJ.  NE has the ammo to do it.



#77 RaiderHater's Revenge

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:44 PM

yep, watch the Pats get him


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#78 sirensong

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 03:58 AM

Was thinking about this today.  IMO, it's important to evaluate a team's entire cap situation, rather than merely pegging a number as unsustainable.  What occurred to me is that any team making that kind of deal will have to have a QB on a rookie deal, or a combination of youth at other key positions such that a 5-year deal with beckham gives at least a 2-year window of...I guess you could call it prime overlap.  The reasoning is that it's unrealistic to envision a $20M WR and $20M (at least) QB, given the pay scales at the other key positions--LT, EDGE, CB--all of which are 8 figures per year for competent veterans.  That would be approximately half the cap for 5 players, so any team that wants to sign ODB has to find value within that group.  

 

That really narrows down the list of teams that could make a realistic play for him.  What's interesting to me is that NYG is one of them...if they draft a QB this season.  If they don't (and take an RB instead), then they're kind of trapped into paying him for a lost season, given that they're not going to be able to rebuild everything in 2018.  It would be reasonable, however, to redshirt a QB expecting him to start in 2019, and concentrate on a 2-year turnaround.  Assuming that any new deal is going to be around 5 years, this gives 3 solid years of overlap between Beckham and the incoming QB.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, especially with the JPP move.



#79 lesjroza

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 07:23 AM

Was thinking about this today.  IMO, it's important to evaluate a team's entire cap situation, rather than merely pegging a number as unsustainable.  What occurred to me is that any team making that kind of deal will have to have a QB on a rookie deal, or a combination of youth at other key positions such that a 5-year deal with beckham gives at least a 2-year window of...I guess you could call it prime overlap.  The reasoning is that it's unrealistic to envision a $20M WR and $20M (at least) QB, given the pay scales at the other key positions--LT, EDGE, CB--all of which are 8 figures per year for competent veterans.  That would be approximately half the cap for 5 players, so any team that wants to sign ODB has to find value within that group.  

 

That really narrows down the list of teams that could make a realistic play for him.  What's interesting to me is that NYG is one of them...if they draft a QB this season.  If they don't (and take an RB instead), then they're kind of trapped into paying him for a lost season, given that they're not going to be able to rebuild everything in 2018.  It would be reasonable, however, to redshirt a QB expecting him to start in 2019, and concentrate on a 2-year turnaround.  Assuming that any new deal is going to be around 5 years, this gives 3 solid years of overlap between Beckham and the incoming QB.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, especially with the JPP move.

 

 

This is all true and a realistic way of looking at things in the NFL today generally, but...............

 

Tom Brady is not your typical NFL QB.

 

Brady previously "restructured" his contract so that his cap hit in '16 and '17 would be 13.7 and 14 mil respectively.

 

He has a cap hit of 22 this year and next but in order to accommodate an acquisition of Beckham it would not be shock me personally, if he is willing to "restructure" his current contract.

 

These things are not that hard to accomplish under the current system if the player and team are on the same page.

 

Brady obviously has made the bulk of his NFL career money, can probably make as much as he is willing to put his name on going forward in endorsements, is nearing the end of his career, and has a good sense of bigger picture.

 

I have no idea if Beckham to NE happens but where most teams are constrained in the ability to pay because of roster construct as you note, I think Brady makes the Pats uniquely flexible.

 

 

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#80 seafoam1

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 08:06 AM

 
 
This is all true and a realistic way of looking at things in the NFL today generally, but...............
 
Tom Brady is not your typical NFL QB.
 
Brady previously "restructured" his contract so that his cap hit in '16 and '17 would be 13.7 and 14 mil respectively.
 
He has a cap hit of 22 this year and next but in order to accommodate an acquisition of Beckham it would not be shock me personally, if he is willing to "restructure" his current contract.
 
These things are not that hard to accomplish under the current system if the player and team are on the same page.
 
Brady obviously has made the bulk of his NFL career money, can probably make as much as he is willing to put his name on going forward in endorsements, is nearing the end of his career, and has a good sense of bigger picture.
 
I have no idea if Beckham to NE happens but where most teams are constrained in the ability to pay because of roster construct as you note, I think Brady makes the Pats uniquely flexible.
 
 
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Brady and the Pats are about winning and that's it. Brady has made more money than he feels he needs and knows it will keep coming for years if he wants it to. What he wants is to win superbowls. Gotta love that from one of the best if all time. Who knows if he wants Beckham or not. If he does, they may just get him except I don't know if Belichick wants the individual unless he can go in and not be a "me guy".