Bible Paradox I've always wondered about

[Snoopy1 0]

K-God gave man free will, correct? So how come at the last supper Jesus says 'tonight one of you will betray me". Doesn't that mean that Judas's betrayal was preordained, that Judas didn't have the free will if it's preordained, right? And didn't Judas end up in hell, if he didn't have a choice that seems pretty harsh.

[KSB2424 3,173]

I thought you were gonna ask how in the world a serpent was able to talk to people, like it was one of those Pixxar movies or something.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

K-God gave man free will, correct? So how come at the last supper Jesus says 'tonight one of you will betray me". Doesn't that mean that Judas's betrayal was preordained, that Judas didn't have the free will if it's preordained, right? And didn't Judas end up in hell, if he didn't have a choice that seems pretty harsh.

 

Predestination and human free will are both biblical ideas. It's pretty tough to understand how they fit together, but this is an explanation that I find philosophically satisfying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

It's like me saying that you will post again on FFToday in the geek club. You have free will not to. But you still will and we all know it.

[wiffleball 4,797]

I think it's fairly obvious - Geebus was Psychic.

[NorthernVike 2,095]

I always wondered if the 'burning bush' was a pot plant. That bastard was high as a kite and thought it was talking to him.

[wiffleball 4,797]

I always wondered if the 'burning bush' was a pot plant. That bastard was high as a kite and thought it was talking to him.

[BLS 314]

I think

 

Here's where you fukked up.

[wiffleball 4,797]

Here's where you fukked up.

 

Jealous, Captain Pants on Fire??

[paulinstl 296]

I don't reply to the Debbil asking questions about the Baby Jebus.

[Savage Beast 1]

I thought you were gonna ask how in the world a serpent was able to talk to people, like it was one of those Pixxar movies or something.

 

A serpent never talked to anybody in the Bible numb nuts.

 

Calling Satan a serpent, a dragon, a lion, etc..... like he was called in the Bible in different chapters is just the authors using descriptive language.

 

A serpent is not what Satan "looks like", it's what he "is like".

 

Jesus was called both a lion and a lamb in different Bible passages. Christ neither looks like a lion or a lamb, but he was described as such, in order to communicate what he "was like" in certain instances.

 

Ever heard the term "it's raining cats and dogs"?

 

It's not to describe what the rain "looks like" but what the rain "is like".

 

It's descriptive language, and the Bible is full of descriptive language, in order to communicate most effectively to it's readers. The authors of the Bible did not have photograps of Satan to publish in their manuscripts and scrolls, so they had to describe him in a weay the people could understand what he was like best in character. Serpents and Dragons were mostly feared by the people of Biblical times, so the authors used them to describe what Satan "is like", instead of trying to try to explain in writing his height, weight, eye color, hair color, his skin's melanin level and pigment color, whether he was clean shaven or wore a beard, etc.......

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

A serpent never talked to anybody in the Bible numb nuts.

 

Calling Satan a serpent, a dragon, a lion, etc..... like he was called in the Bible in different chapters is just the authors using descriptive language.

 

A serpent is not what Satan "looks like", it's what he "is like".

 

So does Satan metaphorically crawl on his belly now?

[Savage Beast 1]

So does Satan metaphorically crawl on his belly now?

 

Yes you are correct. Just as Christ metaphorically crushes the serpent's(Satan's) head with his foot. In both cases, descriptive metaphorical language.

[Savage Beast 1]

K-God gave man free will, correct? So how come at the last supper Jesus says 'tonight one of you will betray me". Doesn't that mean that Judas's betrayal was preordained, that Judas didn't have the free will if it's preordained, right? And didn't Judas end up in hell, if he didn't have a choice that seems pretty harsh.

 

Predestination is not preordination. Predestination is contingent upon the "foreknowledge" of God as described in Romans 8:29-30.

 

God sees into the infinite future, and he knows before any human is born whether they will love him and serve him, or hate him and serve themselves or false gods instead. God foreknows who will reject him or who will not reject him before they are born, and he knew this before he created the first man and woman thousands of years ago.

 

People who are saved by the blood of Christ are predestined by God unto salvation, they are pre-justified, and pre-glorified according to Romans 8:29-30. God uses his foreknowledge into the future to make sure the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of all men that there is a living God, but he also knows who will reject the Holy Spirit, and who will not reject the Holy Spirit, and he loves us so much, that he sends the Holy Spirit to wicked men who God knows will reject him, even though God knows beforehand they will reject him. God is just, but mankind is so wicked in their lust for sin, that they refuse to love and serve God as it says in Romans 1:18-32, so God gives those wicked people over to a reprobate mind and heart. God never forces himself on somebody, he wants us to give our love to him of our own free will, and he knows beforehand who will and will not love him, but he still gives those people a chance to change and love him, even knowing they won't before they die. Now that is real love. Love is not forced or bought and sold, it is freely given.

[FeelingMN 273]

It's been a while since I've read up on my Greek philosophy, but I think I remember something about a Platonic theory of the soul. I'm not sure if I'm exactly right about his thinking, but I believe I got the gist of it. Anyway, How do you approach the inclusion of the Platonic soul into Christian thinking? Plato came up with a 'theory' that everything had an essence, but that the essence existed somewhere else. Whereas the concrete stuff that we see all around us only existed in the world of forms. Basically, there were two separate planes of existence: one physical, one more conceptual. He would have derived such a concept several centuries before Christ.

 

I've heard it elsewhere that Christianity borrowed this concept to form their notion of a 'soul'. Which is the basis for eternal salvation/damnation. One of the major tennants of Christianity is therefore borrowed from Plato; not the word of God.

[FeelingMN 273]

Predestination is not preordination. Predestination is contingent upon the "foreknowledge" of God as described in Romans 8:29-30.

 

God sees into the infinite future, and he knows before any human is born whether they will love him and serve him, or hate him and serve themselves or false gods instead. God foreknows who will reject him or who will not reject him before they are born, and he knew this before he created the first man and woman thousands of years ago.

 

People who are saved by the blood of Christ are predestined by God unto salvation, they are pre-justified, and pre-glorified according to Romans 8:29-30. God uses his foreknowledge into the future to make sure the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of all men that there is a living God, but he also knows who will reject the Holy Spirit, and who will not reject the Holy Spirit, and he loves us so much, that he sends the Holy Spirit to wicked men who God knows will reject him, even though God knows beforehand they will reject him. God is just, but mankind is so wicked in their lust for sin, that they refuse to love and serve God as it says in Romans 1:18-32, so God gives those wicked people over to a reprobate mind and heart. God never forces himself on somebody, he wants us to give our love to him of our own free will, and he knows beforehand who will and will not love him, but he still gives those people a chance to change and love him, even knowing they won't before they die. Now that is real love. Love is not forced or bought and sold, it is freely given.

 

But doesn't this all fly in the face of actual free will? If God has always known I would reject Him, then I could have never chosen otherwise. I had no choice. If I truly did, it opens the door that God could have been wrong. It seems as if you've put yourself into a corner with this explanation.

[Savage Beast 1]

But doesn't this all fly in the face of actual free will? If God has always known I would reject Him, then I could have never chosen otherwise.

 

Not so.

 

God simply knows with his foreknowledge whether you will use your own free will to love and serve him, or whether you will not.

 

I have given you the scriptures about what God has told you, and yet with your own free will you are chosing to reject God.

 

When you stand before Christ on your judgement day, you will have no excuse. You have ignored the scriptures I have given you with the keys for salvation(the Bible's teachings on Christ in the 4 gospels), and God knows you are right now this very minute chosing not to believe in Christ.

 

You could get down on your knees right now and ask Christ to come into your heart and cover your sins with his shed blood and make you a new creature in Christ, but instead you use your free will to reject Christ. The predestination is foreknown by God, but God calls all mankind unto salvation, not just some. The problem is that over half of mankind will chose to reject the calling with their free will because they love their selfish wickedness more then they love God.

[FeelingMN 273]

Not so.

 

God simply knows with his foreknowledge whether you will use your own free will to love and serve him, or whether you will not.

 

I have given you the scriptures about what God has told you, and yet with your own free will you are chosing to reject God.

 

When you stand before Christ on your judgement day, you will have no excuse. You have ignored the scriptures I have given you with the keys for salvation(the Bible's teachings on Christ in the 4 gospels), and God knows you are right now this very minute chosing not to believe in Christ.

 

You could get down on your knees right now and ask Christ to come into your heart and cover your sins with his shed blood and make you a new creature in Christ, but instead you use your free will to reject Christ. The predestination is foreknown by God, but God calls all mankind unto salvation, not just some. The problem is that over half of mankind will chose to reject the calling with their free will because they love their selfish wickedness more then they love God.

 

If selfish wickedness = reason/logic, then yeah I guess I'm guilty.

 

But still, if God has always known I would reject Him, then I really had no free will to employ. Sure, on a humam level you can say I chose this over that therefore I exercised free will. Fine. But from God's perspective, He always knew what I was going to choose. Thus it's nothing more than an illusion for us to exercise free will. You can't have it both ways. You can't say my choice was known 260 billion years ago by God, but I could have chosen according to free will.

 

Yours is a logical impossibility: God knows everything before it occurs, but you can still chose for yourself. If God really knows, the choice has already been made.....even before I was born. Therefore did I really choose? Or, free will exists, I exercise it and switch things up on the Big Guy. He'd be wrong then.

 

So the questions you have to ask yourself are: does God err? or is there no such thing as free will?

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

Yours is a logical impossibility: God knows everything before it occurs, but you can still chose for yourself. If God really knows, the choice has already been made.....even before I was born. Therefore did I really choose? Or, free will exists, I exercise it and switch things up on the Big Guy. He'd be wrong then.

 

So the questions you have to ask yourself are: does God err? or is there no such thing as free will?

 

Ah, but what if God is outside of time?

[Savage Beast 1]

If selfish wickedness = reason/logic, then yeah I guess I'm guilty.

 

But still, if God has always known I would reject Him, then I really had no free will to employ. Sure, on a humam level you can say I chose this over that therefore I exercised free will. Fine. But from God's perspective, He always knew what I was going to choose. Thus it's nothing more than an illusion for us to exercise free will. You can't have it both ways. You can't say my choice was known 260 billion years ago by God, but I could have chosen according to free will.

 

Yours is a logical impossibility: God knows everything before it occurs, but you can still chose for yourself. If God really knows, the choice has already been made.....even before I was born. Therefore did I really choose? Or, free will exists, I exercise it and switch things up on the Big Guy. He'd be wrong then.

 

So the questions you have to ask yourself are: does God err? or is there no such thing as free will?

 

Again, God has predestined and called all of mankind unto salvation, including you and me, but he allows us to use our own free will as to whether we accept the call or reject the call. Because we as humans are finite creatures living inside of time restrictions, we can't fully comprehend infinite things that exist outside of time like God's foreknowledge, and how it works according to our free will. We can only apprehend it to a certain degree. How does God's infinite foreknowledge not conflict with mankind's free will? I can apprehend it, and I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp. Just know that God is 100% just, and he can make no mistakes, even though it makes no sense in human terms, because humans are not infinite, sinless, and always just to each other. We are not perfect, and we operate in an imperfect finite world, with imperfect ways. God is infinite and perfect, which is why we can barely apprehend God, and we can never fully comprehend God.

[Blitzen 1]

Predestination is not preordination. Predestination is contingent upon the "foreknowledge" of God as described in Romans 8:29-30.

 

God sees into the infinite future, and he knows before any human is born whether they will love him and serve him, or hate him and serve themselves or false gods instead. God foreknows who will reject him or who will not reject him before they are born, and he knew this before he created the first man and woman thousands of years ago.

 

People who are saved by the blood of Christ are predestined by God unto salvation, they are pre-justified, and pre-glorified according to Romans 8:29-30. God uses his foreknowledge into the future to make sure the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of all men that there is a living God, but he also knows who will reject the Holy Spirit, and who will not reject the Holy Spirit, and he loves us so much, that he sends the Holy Spirit to wicked men who God knows will reject him, even though God knows beforehand they will reject him. God is just, but mankind is so wicked in their lust for sin, that they refuse to love and serve God as it says in Romans 1:18-32, so God gives those wicked people over to a reprobate mind and heart. God never forces himself on somebody, he wants us to give our love to him of our own free will, and he knows beforehand who will and will not love him, but he still gives those people a chance to change and love him, even knowing they won't before they die. Now that is real love. Love is not forced or bought and sold, it is freely given.

 

So what happens to the people who die not loving him?

 

See, I could buy your argument if not for the "fact" that there's apparently a penalty for those who end up not loving him.

 

Here's my experiment: I will breed a huge number of dogs and try each and everyone of them at catching frisbees. I know for a fact that a few will be able to catch them on the first go but most won't. But I choose to cage and treat badly those who can't for the rest of their lives. Wouldn't that make me worst than M. Vick?

 

Basically, God set up a system where some folks are predestined to fail and will be punished for doing so. Cruel isn't it?

[Blitzen 1]

Again, God has predestined and called all of mankind unto salvation, including you and me, but he allows us to use our own free will as to whether we accept the call or reject the call. Because we as humans are finite creatures living inside of time restrictions, we can't fully comprehend infinite things that exist outside of time like God's foreknowledge, and how it works according to our free will. We can only apprehend it to a certain degree. How does God's infinite foreknowledge not conflict with mankind's free will? I can apprehend it, and I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp. Just know that God is 100% just, and he can make no mistakes, even though it makes no sense in human terms, because humans are not infinite, sinless, and always just to each other. We are not perfect, and we operate in an imperfect finite world, with imperfect ways. God is infinite and perfect, which is why we can barely apprehend God, and we can never fully comprehend God.

 

So God creates Man to not generally be intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game and then punishes those who don't understand the rules? That's an odd God you follow...

[Snoopy1 0]

If God has always known I would reject Him, then I could have never chosen otherwise. I had no choice. If I truly did, it opens the door that God could have been wrong.

 

 

God = Vincenzo Coccotti from True Romance.

 

Take comfort in the fact you never had a choice.

[IrishDrunk 0]

K-God gave man free will, correct?

 

Is K-God any relation to A-Rod?

[edjr 6,898]

all i needed to read was bible, in order to fall down laughing.

[edjr 6,898]

Is K-God any relation to A-Rod?

 

 

K-God is the closer for the Angels.

 

A-Fraud is the 3b for the Yankees.

[MLCKAA 586]

Predestination is not preordination. Predestination is contingent upon the "foreknowledge" of God as described in Romans 8:29-30.

 

God sees into the infinite future, and he knows before any human is born whether they will love him and serve him, or hate him and serve themselves or false gods instead. God foreknows who will reject him or who will not reject him before they are born, and he knew this before he created the first man and woman thousands of years ago.

 

People who are saved by the blood of Christ are predestined by God unto salvation, they are pre-justified, and pre-glorified according to Romans 8:29-30. God uses his foreknowledge into the future to make sure the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of all men that there is a living God, but he also knows who will reject the Holy Spirit, and who will not reject the Holy Spirit, and he loves us so much, that he sends the Holy Spirit to wicked men who God knows will reject him, even though God knows beforehand they will reject him. God is just, but mankind is so wicked in their lust for sin, that they refuse to love and serve God as it says in Romans 1:18-32, so God gives those wicked people over to a reprobate mind and heart. God never forces himself on somebody, he wants us to give our love to him of our own free will, and he knows beforehand who will and will not love him, but he still gives those people a chance to change and love him, even knowing they won't before they die. Now that is real love. Love is not forced or bought and sold, it is freely given.

 

 

This may be the nicest Christ-centric post you have made. Thanks.

 

Something to consider-- God is ~not~ just. God is merciful and gracious, but He's not just. He's also not fair. If God were just or fair, we all would be damned. Instead, he is merciful in not giving us the punishment we deserve and gracious in giving us what we do not deserve, which is his love and a savior.

[MLCKAA 586]

So God creates Man to not generally be intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game and then punishes those who don't understand the rules? That's an odd God you follow...

 

Can you not accept things that you do not understand or accept that there are things that you do not understand?

 

Hubris.

[MLCKAA 586]

So what happens to the people who die not loving him?

 

See, I could buy your argument if not for the "fact" that there's apparently a penalty for those who end up not loving him.

 

Here's my experiment: I will breed a huge number of dogs and try each and everyone of them at catching frisbees. I know for a fact that a few will be able to catch them on the first go but most won't. But I choose to cage and treat badly those who can't for the rest of their lives. Wouldn't that make me worst than M. Vick?

 

Basically, God set up a system where some folks are predestined to fail and will be punished for doing so. Cruel isn't it?

 

 

Acceptance is a choice, not a physical accomplishment.

[Blitzen 1]

Can you not accept things that you do not understand or accept that there are things that you do not understand?

 

Hubris.

 

Can you not answer my point instead of pontificating? TIA.

 

I have no problem with stuff I don't understand. For instance, I don't need to create a god to explain the beginning of the universe simply because I don't understand how it came about. Remember lightning? That used to be caused by gods too until we understood what it actually was.

[Blitzen 1]

Acceptance is a choice, not a physical accomplishment.

 

Not according to Savage Beast. To him, God already knows that some people will invariably fail. Maybe you guys should compare briefing notes.

 

People have free will but some will never exercise that free will to accept God. God already knows this and these people will be punished by eternal damnation or some other ridiculous concept. What's the point in allowing someone to be born whom you already know will never love you as a god only to have to punish them after for not doing something you already knew they wouldn't do? Is s/he doing it for shits and giggles?

 

I know: god works in mysterious ways, right? So mysterious in fact that they defy all logic and common sense.

[Savage Beast 1]

So God creates Man to not generally be intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game and then punishes those who don't understand the rules? That's an odd God you follow...

 

 

I can apprehend how quantum mechanics work, but I don't fully comprehend how they work. I'm not smart enough.

 

The same applies to our human knowledge towards an infinite God.

[BudBro 183]

K-God gave man free will, correct? So how come at the last supper Jesus says 'tonight one of you will betray me". Doesn't that mean that Judas's betrayal was preordained, that Judas didn't have the free will if it's preordained, right? And didn't Judas end up in hell, if he didn't have a choice that seems pretty harsh.

couple of things...jesus may have overheard conversation or been witness to judas and his dealings with the authorities. many times people know when a company is going to fire them before the actual event. it doesn't mean they can read minds, it means they can analyze situations around them. moreover, jesus had conversations with judas over time, and knew he was a zealot. the zealots were in favor of the overthrow of the roman rule, and judas was hoping that jesus was to be the leader of the new rule because he had heard many talks from jesus about a new kingdom that was coming to pass. so, knowing the mindset of judas, jesus may have encouraged judas to move forward with his betrayal to get the ball rolling, so to speak, toward what was to come.

 

it's difficult to know if judas is in hell, or more simply put, eternally separated from god who created him. in judas' mind, he may have been serving jesus and god as he felt called to serve, which was to defend the jews and bring a new kingdom that freed them their captors. god would have been the creator of that mind and spirit of the man, so if judas was serving faithfully to how he had been created, why would you think he's in hell?

[Blitzen 1]

I can apprehend how quantum mechanics work, but I don't fully comprehend how they work. I'm not smart enough.

 

The same applies to our human knowledge towards an infinite God.

 

That's fine but why does God punish people for not understanding his rules when he already knew they wouldn't when they were conceived?

[Savage Beast 1]

Something to consider-- God is ~not~ just. God is merciful and gracious, but He's not just. He's also not fair. If God were just or fair, we all would be damned. Instead, he is merciful in not giving us the punishment we deserve and gracious in giving us what we do not deserve, which is his love and a savior.

 

 

God is just in every way.

 

Read in the KJV Bible, Proverbs 16:11, Zephaniah 3:5, Acts 22:14, and Revelation 15:3

 

All these verses proclaim both God and Christ to be just.

[MLCKAA 586]

Not according to Savage Beast. To him, God already knows that some people will invariably fail. Maybe you guys should compare briefing notes.

 

People have free will but some will never exercise that free will to accept God. God already knows this and these people will be punished by eternal damnation or some other ridiculous concept. What's the point in allowing someone to be born whom you already know will never love you as a god only to have to punish them after for not doing something you already knew they wouldn't do? Is s/he doing it for shits and giggles?

 

I know: god works in mysterious ways, right? So mysterious in fact that they defy all logic and common sense.

 

 

No-- God knowing that some people will not accept him does not change the fact that all those people have the option to accept him. Acceptance is a choice. God simply knows what choice you are going to make.

 

God is passive. God plays no role in day to day life, though some people believe otherwise. God set in motion all the events of time with the flick of an unfathomable wrist. God set up the parameters by which the world would develop and under which humans would make certain choices. Once life was set in motion, he looked forward and foresaw the outcome. That does not mean he doomed anyone to a certain fate. He merely set the game and foresaw the outcome. He does not participate.

 

 

Say you had ESP and knew that your wife was going to buy you a Christmas present at you wouldn't like. You have the option of dropping hints to try to get her to change her mind. Or you can be passive and let her get what she intends to get. You are not to be blamed for her choosing a bad gift, even though you foresaw the gift she would choose for you.

[Savage Beast 1]

That's fine but why does God punish people for not understanding his rules when he already knew they wouldn't when they were conceived?

 

God told mankind in plain simple rules to obey him.

 

In Genesis 3:3 God told mankind that if they ate of the tree he told them to leave alone, the penalty would be death.

 

How much more of a simple and easy to understand warning can you get then this?

 

Now mankind has a way out of eternal death and punishment, and that way is through the second Adam, Jesus the Christ. It's a concept so simple, that I have seen 4 year old children put their faith in Christ as their only savior.

 

If you are born once, you die twice. If you are born twice, you only die once. In John 3:3, Christ told the Pharisee Nicodemus "except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

[NorthernVike 2,095]

God told mankind in plain simple rules to obey him.

 

In Genesis 3:3 God told mankind that if they ate of the tree he told them to leave alone, the penalty would be death.

 

How much more of a simple and easy to understand warning can you get then this?

 

 

In Texor they tell people the same thing if they kill someone else. Works about as good as it did for God too.

[MLCKAA 586]

God is just in every way.

 

Read in the KJV Bible, Proverbs 16:11, Zephaniah 3:5, Acts 22:14, and Revelation 15:3

 

All these verses proclaim both God and Christ to be just.

Proverbs 16:11 is tied to 16:10 and both are in reference to God's infallible judgement.

 

The verse in Zeph needs to be taken in the context of an entire passage that is referring to God always being present even in wicked places/times.

 

Acts 22:14 is Sau'ls conversion. ??

 

The referenced verse in Revelation has nothing to do with the concept of justice. It is straight exaltation of the lord's awe-inspiring righteousness and truthfulness. Exaltation.

 

Look, I stand by what I said before. Your posts in this thread are glorifying to God and I appreciate that from you. However, I disagree with you suggesting that God has an interest in being Just. He is the one and the only, infallible. He needs not be just by the standards of men. Men do not exist, have no mind to ponder justice but that He has given it to us. Our measure of justice cannot encompass the slightest of God's knowledge or intent. He does not need to please our sense of what is just.

[MLCKAA 586]

Can you not answer my point instead of pontificating? TIA.

 

I have no problem with stuff I don't understand. For instance, I don't need to create a god to explain the beginning of the universe simply because I don't understand how it came about. Remember lightning? That used to be caused by gods too until we understood what it actually was.

 

I was not pontificating. But if I was, what is wrong with pontificating. This is, after all, a religious debate.

 

At any rate, I was not pontificating. You made a comment about understanding and I responded to you about what man understands. No offense intended.