Panel Clears Way for Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Cruzer 1,995]

I think the fact that America is more tolerant than say Saudi Arabia is a good thing and something we should expect.

Tolerance comes with a price - keeps getting more and more expensive every day. At this rate, a Saudi-like environment may not be too far off in the future.

[MDC 7,301]

Tolerance comes with a price - keeps getting more and more expensive every day.

 

Considering the thousands who gave their lives to establish our freedoms, I'm not ready to throw those rights out the window over the threat of a community center.

[surferskin 30]

Considering the thousands who gave their lives to establish our freedoms, I'm not ready to throw those rights out the window over the threat of a community center.

 

:salutestheflag:

 

[Saint Elistan 106]

*video*

 

I went out and found the transcript for you. I know you can't be bothered with things like context.

I doubt that it will matter to those that continue to debate this topic, but maybe it will to those that are just reading along - assuming there's any of them left.

 

Question:

 

The question I have, being Christian, and brought up a Christian but having a great tolerance of other religions, having been privileged to visit middle eastern countries and Africa and having been into mosques and understood Muslim people sharing with me their beliefs, all of that sits really well.

 

The issue that I don't know the answer to is that where in Islam there are fanatical people who teach their young people to do atrocities, like they have done, like our near neighbours and Jamia Islamia have done, and they do that in the name of Islam, they do it because they regard people like ourselves as infidels, etcetera, and they poison the minds of these young boys and girls to commit these atrocities in the name of Islam with a view to gaining eternal reward.

 

Why is it that the broader Muslim community, who we can co-exist very peacefully with great acceptance of one another's beliefs, why can't the broader community see that that sort of thing doesn't happen and control it and teach their young people that what those people are doing is really poisoning their minds and it is against their Islamic beliefs which you have alluded to earlier?

 

 

Answer:

 

That's a very important and excellent question. The answer is it is being done. The broader community is in fact criticising and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. I just came from a conference in Jordan, Amman where there were over 170 leading Muslim scholars from almost every part of the Muslim world, including some of the most important names like Sheikh Tantawi of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, who is the Chief Mufti of Egypt, the Chief Mufti of Jordan, the Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, who is a very very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world. They included fatwas obtained from people like ..... Istani who could not attend but also issued a fatwa condemning acts of terrorism and stating that the attribution of infidel to others is not something that should be done and is outside of the ethics of Islam.

 

Islamic law, the text of Islam, the Koran is quite explicit on describing Christians and Jews as people of the book, and throughout Islamic history even Islamic scholars in India have actually included Hindus as being people of the book because Hindus were not yet involved - were not part of the society, of Arabic society, at the time of the prophet.

 

The complexity arises, sir, from the fact that - from political problems and the history of the politics between the West and the Muslim world. We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US lead sanction against Iraq lead to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.

 

What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognisant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world. It is a difficult subject to discuss with Western audiences but it is one that must be pointed out and must be raised.

 

How many of you have seen the documentary: Fahrenheit 911? The vast majority - at least half here. Do you remember the scene of the Iraqi woman whose house was bombed and she was just screaming, "What have they done." Now, I don't know, you don't know Arabic but in Arabic it was extremely powerful. Her house was gone. Her husband, I think, was killed. What wrong did he do? I found myself weeping when I watched that scene and I imagined myself if I were a 15-year old nephew of this deceased man, what would I have felt?

 

Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?

 

So I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain. Half a million Iraqi - there's a sense in the Arab and Muslim world that the European world and Western world is just - does not care about our lives or human lives. There's a perception in much of the Arab world and the Muslim world that the issue is about race. That the Palestinian Israeli issue is less about religion than it is about race because about 25 per cent or more of the Palestinians or the Arabs are Christian. Many people in the West are unaware that Palestinians are not uniformally Muslim.

 

There is a large number of Arab Christians but they are not regarded as being equal. These issues have to be looked at, have to be recognised, have to be addressed and have to be solved. And this is why in our initiative we have urged a resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict as being number one on the list of things that need to be done because you address this problem and a whole host of problems will be addressed automatically.

 

How many of you have read the book: The Tipping Point? Are you familiar with that book? It is a fascinating book. I strongly recommend it. It talks about, and a very lovely example, there are many examples that I don't remember, about crime in New York City and how just the removal of graffiti on the subways, New York City subways, reduced crime in New York City. Now, how would you argue the link between graffiti on the walls of the subway and crime? It's hard to determine but in fact it was proven to be so.

 

It is much more evident to many people what the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict will do, and as Tony Blair is urging, urging, the resolution of this crisis and the lethargy with which the Bush administration has been actually engaged in trying to resolve this crisis amplifies the perception, in the Arab and Muslim world, that our pain is not heard. Our anguish is not heard. And simple things like when President Bush went to Iraq on Thanksgiving to address the United States troops based in Iraq, he did not speak at all to the Iraqi people.

 

He could have left a taped message addressing the Iraqi street congratulating them on removing a tyrant that they all wanted to have removed, and saying, you know: I have asked Congress to allot 70 billion dollars of which I'm hoping to have so much for education. Speak to the people. He does this every year in the United States. Imagine if he came to this country and there were US troops stationed here, spoke to them, didn't speak to the Australian people. How would you feel?

 

How many of you have seen the documentary: The Fog of War? It is an important documentary in which Robert McNamara was interviewed and it's a documentary which is supported by 11 or 12 - I think 11 lessons, if I'm not mistaken - and the first lesson he points out is empathise with the other side. The number one thing that we need on the part of the West is to empathise. To see yourselves from the eyes of the other.

 

If it's a man who wants to have a wonderful relationship with a woman, you have to see how you look from the eyes of a woman. If you are a white man seeking to deal in Australia with the Aborigines, you have to learn to look at yourself from the eyes of the Aborigines, and you will see things that you cannot see otherwise. The West needs to begin to see themselves through the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world, and when you do you will see the predicament that exists within the Muslim community.

 

I'm not saying this to condone. Acts like the London bombing are completely against Islamic law. Suicide bombing, completely against Islamic law, completely, 100 per cent. But the facts of the matter is that people, I have discovered, are more motivated by emotion than by logic. If their emotions are in one place and their logic is behind, their emotions will drive their decisions more often than not, and therefore we need to address the emotional state of people and the extent to which those emotions are shaped by things that we can control and we can shape, this is how we will shape a better future.

 

 

And as much as you want to put on your patriot hat and prance around saying WE IS CAN DO NO WRONG DERP DERP...the entirety of his answer is 100% agreeable.

Especially since he's speaking in the context of "Why do certain people feel this way" and not "Why do you feel this way" as the context of the video suggests.

 

This debate has seen propaganda on a scale that even Gerbels would be proud of.

[Cruzer 1,995]

Considering the thousands who gave their lives to establish our freedoms, I'm not ready to throw those rights out the window over the threat of a community center.

Nor am I - thus my stance supporting the right of these individuals to build. Unfortunately I can not get the image of the thousands who died at the very ground they want to build - thus my apprehension in thinking it is a good idea to do so at the very spot. It would be wonderful if a compromise could be reached, but I doubt that will happen.

[KSB2424 3,148]

Nor am I - thus my stance supporting the right of these individuals to build. Unfortunately I can not get the image of the thousands who died at the very ground they want to build - thus my apprehension in thinking it is a good idea to do so at the very spot. It would be wonderful if a comprimise could be reached, but I doubt that will happen.

You're wasting your time Cruzer. I said the same thing a week or two ago. However it seems that if you simply think building this thing is in bad taste and will not help inter-religion relations (which is a stated goal), then that means you are against freedom of religion and hate all brown folks.

 

It's as if some people can't have two seperate thoughts at the same time.

[MDC 7,301]

Nor am I - thus my stance supporting the right of these individuals to build. Unfortunately I can not get the image of the thousands who died at the very ground they want to build - thus my apprehension in thinking it is a good idea to do so at the very spot. It would be wonderful if a compromise could be reached, but I doubt that will happen.

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's several blocks from the site and there is another mosque along with strip clubs, fast food joints, etc. right in the neighborhood. This isn't hallowed ground, it's just been exaggerated by pundits who have something to gain.

[DAVID RUFFIN 2]

No they have the right to build it, and I, as an American have the right to protest it. HTH

 

With all we know about priest molesting children, would you also protest a Catholic church being built next to an elementary school.

[Birdseed 1]

I say fock it - let them try to build it. Over/under on number of times it gets burned to the ground?

 

 

[KSB2424 3,148]

With all we know about priest molesting children, would you also protest a Catholic church being built next to an elementary school.

If there was a history of molestation in the school already by Catholic priests, and 70% of the elementary school parents thought it was a bad idea, then I would prolly side with the parents and think the chuch should move further down the road.

 

If the Catholic church owned the land and wanted to build right there then they have the right. Doesn't mean that given that exact spot, at that time, beside that school, I think it is a good idea or will help (in any way) heal both the school or church. HTH

[surferskin 30]

If it makes you feel any better, it's several blocks from the site and there is another mosque along with strip clubs, fast food joints, etc. right in the neighborhood. This isn't hallowed ground, it's just been exaggerated by pundits who have something to gain.

 

It's part of ground zero. It's not just close. Stop with the misinformation.

[FlaHawker 24]

With all we know about priest molesting children, would you also protest a Catholic church being built next to an elementary school.

Me personally? No, but I am sure bigoted, intolerant people like you would.

But I digress. Stick to disucssing the mosque.

[Cruzer 1,995]

From my understanding, this group hopes to build and improve realations with mainstream America/Christians by building on this site. Although I've not seen any official polling, appears more than not are actually offended by the proposed site. Maybe, if this group really wants to do what it says it wants to do, it would be better served if they announced they had a change in plans. That out of respect for their neighbors and fellow citizens, and as an olive branch to united peace, an exhibition of Muslim compassion - they would select another site to build on. Seems to me this would go miles and miles towards their goal instead of the controversy it has created instead. But it is their right, just saying this could be a viable option too.

[The Pope 10]

From my understanding, this group hopes to build and improve realations with mainstream America/Christians by building on this site. Although I've not seen any official polling, appears more than not are actually offended by the proposed site. Maybe, if this group really wants to do what it says it wants to do, it would be better served if they announced they had a change in plans. That out of respect for their neighbors and fellow citizens, and as an olive branch to united peace, an exhibition of Muslim compassion - they would select another site to build on. Seems to me this would go miles and miles towards their goal instead of the controversy it has created instead. But it is their right, just saying this could be a viable option too.

 

Great Idea. They could build it in Arizona.

[MDC 7,301]

From my understanding, this group hopes to build and improve realations with mainstream America/Christians by building on this site. Although I've not seen any official polling, appears more than not are actually offended by the proposed site. Maybe, if this group really wants to do what it says it wants to do, it would be better served if they announced they had a change in plans. That out of respect for their neighbors and fellow citizens, and as an olive branch to united peace, an exhibition of Muslim compassion - they would select another site to build on. Seems to me this would go miles and miles towards their goal instead of the controversy it has created instead. But it is their right, just saying this could be a viable option too.

 

People are protesting mosques all over the country - I don't think they'd have an easier time building a community center in say NJ than they do in Manhattan.

 

Maybe out of respect for religious freedom people should stop protesting a bunch of basketball courts and a pool in an old Burlington Coat Factory site?

 

This whole "controversy" is so obviously manufactured as an election year wedge issue, I can't believe people are falling for it.

[Saint Elistan 106]

People are protesting mosques all over the country - I don't think they'd have an easier time building a community center in say NJ than they do in Manhattan.

Exactly.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html

[Cruzer 1,995]

People are protesting mosques all over the country - I don't think they'd have an easier time building a community center in say NJ than they do in Manhattan.

You really don't think there would be a difference in opposition to a mosque being built in Cedar Rapids than on the site the World Trade Centers fell and thousands died?

 

Maybe out of respect for religious freedom people should stop protesting a bunch of basketball courts and a pool in an old Burlington Coat Factory site?

Or maybe out of respect for religiouis freedom people should stop protesting a bunch of children wanting to have, and call it, a Christmas party at their school.

 

This whole "controversy" is so obviously manufactured as an election year wedge issue, I can't believe people are falling for it.

I don't know, millions did (and have) bought into the notion of man-made global warming. I can pretty much believe anything now.

[phillybear 366]

It's been 9 years. NINE FOCKING YEARS. Build something, for focks sake. How the hell can this country, New York state, New York City let 9 years elapse, and they are still clearing rubble, not building a mother focking thing? It's a focking disgrace. Stop with the red tape. Stop trying to be politically sensitive. Radical terrorists slaughter thousands of people, and we really showed them our resolve. By building nothing. It doesn't take more than 2 years to build a sky scraper. What the holy fock is going on? How about we build two giants Twin Tower mosques and just give up. Bunch of namby pamby fagguts running this country. Fock you.

 

:mad:

[surferskin 30]

People are protesting mosques all over the country - I don't think they'd have an easier time building a community center in say NJ than they do in Manhattan.

 

Maybe out of respect for religious freedom people should stop protesting a bunch of basketball courts and a pool in an old Burlington Coat Factory site?

 

This whole "controversy" is so obviously manufactured as an election year wedge issue, I can't believe people are falling for it.

 

Out of respect for the 2nd amendment, maybe NYC should get rid of their ridiculous handgun laws.

[Saint Elistan 106]

You really don't think there would be a difference in opposition to a mosque being built in Cedar Rapids than on the site the World Trade Centers fell and thousands died?

 

Murfreesboro, TN.

Temecula, CA.

Sheboygan, WI.

 

The only difference in these places is that they can't hide behind the Black Swan of 9/11.

[MDC 7,301]

You really don't think there would be a difference in opposition to a mosque being built in Cedar Rapids than on the site the World Trade Centers fell and thousands died?

 

There would still be protests. Here's a link to a story about protests in Tennessee against the same kind of center. There've been protests against mosques in Colorado and California, too.

 

Or maybe out of respect for religiouis freedom people should stop protesting a bunch of children wanting to have, and call it, a Christmas party at their school.

 

Wow, talk about your non sequiturs. What does a public school not hosting a Christmas party have to do with an Islamic center on private property?

 

I don't know, millions did (and have) bought into the notion of man-made global warming. I can pretty much believe anything now.

 

You've really read your Fox News playbook, haven't you?

[MDC 7,301]

Out of respect for the 2nd amendment, maybe NYC should get rid of their ridiculous handgun laws.

 

Out of respect for intelligence and common sense you should stop posting.

[surferskin 30]

Out of respect for intelligence and common sense you should stop posting.

 

OH SNAP!!! Good one, you go girl.

[RLLD 4,201]

http://www.fftodayforums.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=366305&view=findpost&p=4264140

 

 

Looks like its coming from "gravatar.com"......

[surferskin 30]

Looks like its coming from "gravatar.com"......

 

Whoops...ah, fock it.

[DAVID RUFFIN 2]

Me personally? No, but I am sure bigoted, intolerant people like you would.

But I digress. Stick to disucssing the mosque.

[/quote

 

 

 

Bigoted and intolerant When have I ever said anything bigoted or intolerant???

[RLLD 4,201]

Whoops...ah, fock it.

 

All he has to do is make a global setting to block images from it, and once people start using it he will figure it out pretty quick.....

[KSB2424 3,148]

Murfreesboro, TN.

Temecula, CA.

Sheboygan, WI.

 

The only difference in these places is that they can't hide behind the Black Swan of 9/11.

You do realize that there are like two thousand mosques in this country. And the NY Times found a total of three where some folks (who where part of another religious group and a small percentage of the town population) protested against the mosque.

 

So 0.0015% of American towns have a group of idiots that live there. Thanks for finding the execetpion to the rule and the fringe of masses.

[DankNuggs 305]

You do realize that there are like two thousand mosques in this country. And the NY Times found a total of three where some folks (who where part of another religious group and a small percentage of the town population) protested against the mosque.

 

So 0.0015% of American towns have a group of idiots that live there. Thanks for finding the execetpion to the rule and the fringe of masses.

There has only been the site of 1 domestic islamic extremist terrorist attack, and exactly 1 proposal to building a celebritory mosque in its ashes...

 

why do we have to say extremist? Just look at their sharia law and you can see this behavior is normal, not extreme at all...

[phillybear 366]

There has only been the site of 1 domestic islamic extremist terrorist attack, and exactly 1 proposal to building a celebritory mosque in its ashes...

 

why do we have to say extremist? Just look at their sharia law and you can see this behavior is normal, not extreme at all...

 

Um, ONE? Off the top of my head, whether they were successful or not...

 

The Pentagon in Washington DC

The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11

The soldier who screamed Alla Akbar while gunning down soldiers in the military base.

Shoe bomber

Underwear bomber

World Trade Center, depending on who you believe

Times Square cab

 

[Johnny B Good 0]

There has only been the site of 1 domestic islamic extremist terrorist attack, and exactly 1 proposal to building a celebritory mosque in its ashes...

 

why do we have to say extremist? Just look at their sharia law and you can see this behavior is normal, not extreme at all...

 

 

You should quit while you're behind. Your credibility here has reached ground zero.

[Cruzer 1,995]

There would still be protests. Here's a link to a story about protests in Tennessee against the same kind of center. There've been protests against mosques in Colorado and California, too.

<BR>Rutherford, Tennessee - the same Rutherford, Tennessee with a population of 1272 people? We have more people than than the top 10 floors of my office building.....Story says was so crowded they had to turn people away - ok, so the local Dairy Queen can only hold 40 people....I am guessing me, nor many in the metroplex area were even aware of the upheveal taken place in Rutherford over this. Everybody damn near is aware and has an opinion on the NYC proposed mosque. Not to diminish it's importance, but if you're comparing this protest to the controversy at ground zero over that mosque - you are nuts. I don't know for sure bcoz I've never visited Rutherford, Tennessee - nor have I seen anybody talk about their situation on the web - but perhaps they are scared. To my knowledge, most here and abroad are ok with the mosque proposed - it's the location in question........Again, not to downgrade the ongoings in the hot bed of Rutherford, Tennessee - but I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of mosque already in this country that many have no problem with. Any and all located in my area - no problem at all far as I'm concerned.<BR> <BR>

You've really read your Fox News playbook, haven't you?

<BR>Eh, not biting Carville. But try the veal, hear it's great.

[RLLD 4,201]

It's sorta nice that people have the ability to protest for or against stuff...

[Recliner Pilot 61]

You will argue in circles on this issue forever.

 

Here's my point: If your stated goal is to outreach to non-muslims and improve the image of muslims among the U.S. population, you might not want to pixx off 70% of the U.S. population and consider moving the thing a few blocks.

 

Do they have a right to build it? Yes, if they meet local requirements.

 

Is it a smart way to "outreach" to Americans? No fukking way. It will have the exact opposite affect of their stated goals.

 

 

Bump for SE to respond.

[Secret Asian Man 40]

 

Underwear bomber

 

 

 

What guy who poop in pool have to do with this?

[MDC 7,301]

<BR>Rutherford, Tennessee - the same Rutherford, Tennessee with a population of 1272 people? We have more people than than the top 10 floors of my office building.....Story says was so crowded they had to turn people away - ok, so the local Dairy Queen can only hold 40 people....I am guessing me, nor many in the metroplex area were even aware of the upheveal taken place in Rutherford over this. Everybody damn near is aware and has an opinion on the NYC proposed mosque. Not to diminish it's importance, but if you're comparing this protest to the controversy at ground zero over that mosque - you are nuts. I don't know for sure bcoz I've never visited Rutherford, Tennessee - nor have I seen anybody talk about their situation on the web - but perhaps they are scared. To my knowledge, most here and abroad are ok with the mosque proposed - it's the location in question........Again, not to downgrade the ongoings in the hot bed of Rutherford, Tennessee - but I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of mosque already in this country that many have no problem with. Any and all located in my area - no problem at all far as I'm concerned.<BR> <BR><BR>Eh, not biting Carville. But try the veal, hear it's great.

 

Just showing you that people have been protesting mosques outside of NYC. The only reason this is a story is because Fox News and other rightwing pundits took a break from calling New York a socialist / liberal nest of sin just in time to declare it hallowed ground and a mosque-free zone.

[Saint Elistan 106]

@Cruzer - Rutherford COUNTY, doofus. The City is Murfreesboro. Surprised MDC didn't correct you on that...

 

Bump for SE to respond.

 

What exactly are you looking for me to say? You've changed your "point" about 30 times in this thread. Now you've settled on the same argument that every other opponent in this thread has fallen back to. And as I've said before in other threads, this is precisely why we have a Republic and not a Democracy - to avoid mob rule. The masses are easily manipulated and this is a fine example of the power of propaganda.

 

They have owned the location and held prayers there since July of 2009 and the Times reported on the plan to build the community center as early as December of 2009. The O'Reilly Factor picked it up in December as well:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7WbTv_gsx4

 

Then NOTHING for 5 months.

 

Then on May 6th, a unanimous vote by a New York City community board committee approves the project. AP runs the story and cites the opinions of some of the 9/11 Victims. That's when the New York Post starts dropping the inaccuracies with their headline "Panel approves 'WTC' mosque" and a blogger by the name of Pamela Geller, co-founder of Stop Islamization of America, drops "Monster Mosque Pushes Ahead in Shadow of World Trade Center Islamic Death and Destruction" as her headline. This is the same lady who said that Malcom X is Obama's father.

 

The next day Geller's group launches the "Stop the 911 Mosque" campaign and announces the day she will hold a protest. Then on May 13th, the New York Post gives the populace an article titled "Mosque Madness at Ground Zero"; the first newspaper article that frames the project as inherently wrong and suspect, in the way that Geller has been framing it for months. They go so far as to quote Geller in the article and the writer FALSELY announces that the opening date of the facility will be September 11th, 2011. Glenn Beck repeated this falsehood on Fox and Friends.

 

And that set it off. Conservatives ran with it. Geller made an appearance on Hannity's radio show. The Washington Examiner ran with a story titled A mosque to mock 9/11's victims and families. Then Fox News got all "Fair and Balanced" on us. Then Guilliani called it a desecration. Then Sarah Palin got involved. Then Peter King, Newt Gingrich, and Tim Pawlenty threw their ridiculousness into the ring.

 

So, you tell me.

 

Do Americans really feel the way you portray them to feel or did one bat-sh1t-crazy blogger, a newspaper with an agenda, and a plethora of politicians use the right words and tug on the right strings for percentage points in an election year?

[JackARoot 2]

This is one of the stoopidest issues I've ever heard of. People act like Islam is the only religion to ever produce violent extremists.

 

Timothy McVeigh considered himself a good Christian, so I suppose we shouldn't have any Christian churches in Oklahoma City.

[FlaHawker 24]

Just showing you that people have been protesting mosques outside of NYC.

So are you saying as American citizens we do not have the right to protest something we disagree with?

[MDC 7,301]

So are you saying as American citizens we do not have the right to protest something we disagree with?

 

Sure you do. And I have a right to call you on your anti-American bigotry.