Panel Clears Way for Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Who is "them" exactly? Or do you not know the differences in Muslim denominations? Integrating into Western Culture is heresy to the Wahhabi's (Al Qaeda).

 

 

Um, isn't Al Queda who we are at war with? Didn't they bring down the WTC towers? Didn't all 19 of them "integrate into Western Culture" to pull it off?

[MDC 7,425]

Just when it goes my way.

 

Congratulations on crying for PC sensitivity until other people couldn't exercise their right to hurt your tender wittle feewings because you're askeered of the boogeyman.

 

You should sue Freddy Krueger for making you wet the bed.

[Saint Elistan 106]

Um, isn't Al Queda who we are at war with? Didn't they bring down the WTC towers? Didn't all 19 of them "integrate into Western Culture" to pull it off?

 

There's a slight difference between a sleeper cell and someone incorporating Western Culture into their lives.

 

You missed my edit from my previous post, so I'll post it here for you.

Ever wonder why Al Qaeda blows up Iraqi's and Afghani's? Heretics are doomed to death.

 

Feisal Abdul Rauf, the guy behind Park51, is a SUFI Imam. Shall I teach you something about the origins of the Wahhabi?

Wahhabism [Wahabism] is a reform movement that began 200 years ago to rid Islamic societies of cultural practices and interpretation that had been acquired over the centuries.

The followers of Abdul Wahab (1703-1792) began as a movement to cleanse the Arab bedouin from the influence of Sufism.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm

[Recliner Pilot 61]

There's a slight difference between a sleeper cell and a US Citizen.

 

 

 

You saying one can't be both?

[Saint Elistan 106]

You saying one can't be both?

 

I clarified for you because their hate isn't limited to the United States. "Heretics" are worse than "Infidels".

 

Why don't you address the important parts of my posts though?

[phillybear 366]

Sweet. Tell you what. Let's all link arms, take a ride, and support the Westboro Baptist Church in their protest against American evilness. Like the Muslims. In fact, maybe we can have an orgy. And get stoned to death.

 

MDC. St Elistan. You boys have front row seats on the bus.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I clarified for you because their hate isn't limited to the United States. "Heretics" are worse than "Infidels".

 

Why don't you address the important parts of my posts though?

 

I know it's not limited to the U.S.

 

But it's the U.S. I'm concerned with. How other countries deal with the problem is up to them. I'm not against mosques, I just realize the one in question will turn into a trophy for Al Queada simply because of it's location.

 

I see no reason to hand them a trophy.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

"Heretics" are worse than "Infidels".

 

 

 

Just caught this part. How so? Death is the prescribed remedy for both. You do you kill a heretic more than an infidel?

[Saint Elistan 106]

I see no reason to hand them a trophy.

 

How many quotes do I have to pluck from the depths of the internet to get you to understand that there is no "them".

 

Really doesn't matter I guess. I don't debate you to convince you, I do it for the lurkers.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

How many quotes do I have to pluck from the depths of the internet to get you to understand that there is no "them".

 

 

 

Them would be Al Queda. If you don't think they will treat this mosque as a trophy you are blind to reality.

[phillybear 366]

How many quotes do I have to pluck from the depths of the internet to get you to understand that there is no "them".

 

Really doesn't matter I guess. I don't debate you to convince you, I do it for the lurkers.

 

Just say it. "I support the Westboro Baptist Church".

[Saint Elistan 106]

Just say it. "I support the Westboro Baptist Church".

Why would I say that? And what does it have to do with this?

 

Shut the fock up and stick to being the bored insult comic. Nobody cares what you actually think about something.

[gocolts 300]

:popcorn:

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Just say it. "I support the Westboro Baptist Church".

 

 

What if the WBC bought land and started a 13 story church accross the street from Arlington National Cemetary to they could do their "outreach"? Would Elistan be for, or against such a proposal?

[phillybear 366]

Why would I say that? And what does it have to do with this?

 

Shut the fock up and stick to being the bored insult comic. Nobody cares what you actually think about something.

 

I don't mind being the bored's DRUNKEN insult comic. I am not a good person.

 

But, I'm frankly stunned. I thought it would be the easiest thing in the world to say "I support the Westboro Baptist Church". Lord knows that I do.

 

See, I don't frankly like some of the people I defend. Over the past couple of years at this site, I've defended the freedom of speech of Rev Wright, Don Imus, Randi Rhodes, Dr Laura, whoever that communist czar was for Obama. I fight for every person with every opinion. Why, oh why, would you hesitate to defend the Westboro Baptist Church?

 

You make me sad. Some faction of Muslims are good. Some faction of Christian are bad. Libertarian in name only. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

 

Buttons pushed. FACE.

[MDC 7,425]

Sweet. Tell you what. Let's all link arms, take a ride, and support the Westboro Baptist Church in their protest against American evilness.

 

I support their right to lawful protest just like I'd support their right to build a church on their own property.

[phillybear 366]

I support their right to lawful protest just like I'd support their right to build a church on their own property.

 

OK.

 

The point is that these issues suck. SUCK.

[Saint Elistan 106]

What if the WBC bought land and started a 13 story church accross the street from Arlington National Cemetary to they could do their "outreach"? Would Elistan be for, or against such a proposal?

 

They can build whatever they want wherever they're permitted to do so via zoning laws. Completely unrelated to a vague statement such as "I support WBC".

 

But ya see...this is where the analogy goes wrong.

If Westborro Baptist Church is Al Qaeda, then the question you should really be asking me to match up with the Park51 situation is as follows:

 

What if a Methodist wanted to build a YMCA two blocks away from Arlington National Cemetary?

[Gepetto 1,368]

They can build whatever they want wherever they're permitted to do so via zoning laws. Completely unrelated to a vague statement such as "I support WBC".

 

But ya see...this is where the analogy goes wrong.

If Westborro Baptist Church is Al Qaeda, then the question you should really be asking me to match up with the Park51 situation is as follows:

 

What if a Methodist wanted to build a YMCA two blocks away from Arlington National Cemetary?

 

They want to build a mosque. So your scenerio should be "......YMCA and Church......".

 

How do you know so much about the intricacies of the different Muslims?

[Saint Elistan 106]

They want to build a mosque. So your scenerio should be "......YMCA and Church......".

 

How do you know so much about the intricaticies of the different Muslims?

 

There are many YMCA's that partner with and have churches on their premises.

 

As for the second question...

In my quest to find a religion (and ultimately finding that I much preferred to have my own relationship with what I perceived as "God"), I studied Islam. Pretty sure I even have some old posts on here during these times where I state that I actually believe in a lot of the same things as Muslims. I've changed quite a bit since then - pretty neat to look back at how I used to view things.

 

But outside of religious teachings, it's kind of a hot topic these days. I spend a lot of time reading.

 

It's sad, really, when you look at the situation from the outside. Jews, Christians, and Muslims have so much in common. Believe in basically the same prophets, the same God, same morals...

That's why I find the Bahais so intriguing. They take that a step further.

[Saint Elistan 106]

If to be a Jew means to say with all one’s heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one. If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one.

[surferskin 30]

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673

 

Ground Zero Imam Says U.S. Worse than al-Qaeda by Jason Mattera

08/23/2010 New audio has surfaced of the imam behind the controversial mosque near Ground Zero allegedly telling an audience overseas that the United States has been far more deadly than al-Qaeda. "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non Muslims," Feisal Abdul Rauf said at a 2005 lecture sponsored by the University of South Australia. After discussing the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Rauf went on to argue that America is to blame for its testy relationship with Islamic countries. "What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world." The audio was uncovered by blogger Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awISCKJzVtE&feature=player_embedded

 

[phillybear 366]

They can build whatever they want wherever they're permitted to do so via zoning laws. Completely unrelated to a vague statement such as "I support WBC".

 

But ya see...this is where the analogy goes wrong.

If Westborro Baptist Church is Al Qaeda, then the question you should really be asking me to match up with the Park51 situation is as follows:

 

What if a Methodist wanted to build a YMCA two blocks away from Arlington National Cemetary?

 

First of all, I don't even remember visiting this site last night. :booze:

 

Do people realize that local governments/courts are passing laws and upholding injunctions to prevent the WBC from coming to town to protest. WBC is also being denied their rights to be anywhere near a funeral on the whims of local police. Unalienable rights, being suppressed. Because they are not popular. Hell, that bastion of progressiveness England banned them completely.

 

I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but when the overwhelming amjority doesn't want something, it's probably not a good idea to shove it down their throats, even if it's legally permissible. And Europe is focked because they let Muslims walk all over them. So, how is that progressive nation of France dealing with the situation? Riots that lasted months and the banning of burkas. This is all going to end badly.

 

I don't even know what my point is anymore. This is a non issue in so many ways.

[KSB2424 3,148]

[Recliner Pilot 61]

They can build whatever they want wherever they're permitted to do so via zoning laws. Completely unrelated to a vague statement such as "I support WBC".

 

But ya see...this is where the analogy goes wrong.

If Westborro Baptist Church is Al Qaeda, then the question you should really be asking me to match up with the Park51 situation is as follows:

 

What if a Methodist wanted to build a YMCA two blocks away from Arlington National Cemetary?

 

 

You will argue in circles on this issue forever.

 

Here's my point: If your stated goal is to outreach to non-muslims and improve the image of muslims among the U.S. population, you might not want to pixx off 70% of the U.S. population and consider moving the thing a few blocks.

 

Do they have a right to build it? Yes, if they meet local requirements.

 

Is it a smart way to "outreach" to Americans? No fukking way. It will have the exact opposite affect of their stated goals.

[MDC 7,425]

You will argue in circles on this issue forever.

 

Here's my point: If your stated goal is to outreach to non-muslims and improve the image of muslims among the U.S. population, you might not want to pixx off 70% of the U.S. population and consider moving the thing a few blocks.

 

Do they have a right to build it? Yes, if they meet local requirements.

 

Is it a smart way to "outreach" to Americans? No fukking way. It will have the exact opposite affect of their stated goals.

 

So in order to get along with mainstream Americans, Muslims should stop building places of worship and community centers so as not to offend people - gotcha.

 

This would be a non-issue if Republicans like that bimbo wh0re who runs your party weren't pandering to bigots.

[FlaHawker 24]

So in order to get along with mainstream Americans, Muslims should stop building places of worship and community centers so as not to offend people - gotcha.

 

This would be a non-issue if Republicans like that bimbo wh0re who runs your party weren't pandering to bigots.

You are one stupid mofo. No one said they cannot build it. Let me repeat--NO ONE SAID THEY CANNOT BUILD IT!!!!!!

[MDC 7,425]

You are one stupid mofo. No one said they cannot build it. Let me repeat--NO ONE SAID THEY CANNOT BUILD IT!!!!!!

 

No sh1t. There are just retarded bigot @ssholes and their willing dupes walking around talking all kinds of stupid ch1t about how it might be a Trojan horse and offensive to New Yorkers blah blah blah. That's what you get when a dumb future pron star like Palin and a fat drug-addled slob like Limbaugh are the intellectual leaders of your party.

[Cruzer 1,995]

So in order to get along with mainstream Americans, Muslims should stop building places of worship and community centers so as not to offend people - gotcha.

Even before this President took office, mainstream America has been the one bending over backwards so as to not offend everybody else, Muslims included. It's only getting more extensive now. "Holiday" school parties, what a joke.

[FlaHawker 24]

No sh1t. There are just retarded bigot @ssholes and their willing dupes walking around talking all kinds of stupid ch1t about how it might be a Trojan horse and offensive to New Yorkers blah blah blah. That's what you get when a dumb future pron star like Palin and a fat drug-addled slob like Limbaugh are the intellectual leaders of your party.

It's offesnive to 70% of Americans HTH. Just because you have the right to build it (at that specific location), doesn't mean it is right to build it (at that specific location). ITSATIP. Get it? Prolly not

[surferskin 30]

I underestimated the ability of Republicans to exploit religious intolerance for votes - I was wrong, mea culpa.

 

By the way, it's not a mosque - it's a community center that has a prayer room.

 

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

[RLLD 4,230]

Man Mistaken for Muslim Draws Confrontation at Mosque Protest

 

A man wearing a white athletic skull cap at a weekend rally against the planned mosque and Islamic community center near Ground Zero this weekend prompted a tense confrontation with some of the protesters, until he was finally led away from the rally by police.

 

Video of the exchange was posted on YouTube, though much of the conversation cannot be heard above the chanting of the crowd.

 

At one point, a woman appears to confront the man, an African-American man in a white shirt and white skull cap.

 

 

[MDC 7,425]

It's offesnive to 70% of Americans HTH. Just because you have the right to build it (at that specific location), doesn't mean it is right to build it (at that specific location). ITSATIP. Get it? Prolly not

 

I get it: They have the right as Americans to build but they shouldn't exercise that right because it's offensive to the mob.

[MDC 7,425]

Even before this President took office, mainstream America has been the one bending over backwards so as to not offend everybody else, Muslims included.

 

What's your point? The gravy train is over and now we're going to get even by demonizing churches?

[FlaHawker 24]

I get it: They have the right as Americans to build but they shouldn't exercise that right because it's offensive to the mob.

No they have the right to build it, and I, as an American have the right to protest it. HTH

[Cruzer 1,995]

What's your point? The gravy train is over and now we're going to get even by demonizing churches?

Link to where I supported any such idea?

 

My stance is the same as many here - these people have the right to build a whatever in this spot if/when the proper legal obligations have been . I also support the idea of thinking it is highly inappropriate and a better sense of judgement would be to build it elsewhere. But whatever - my original statement addressed the policy of who it is bending over backwards so as to not offend the other side. Right now mainstream America is still taking it in the ass, has been for a while.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

First of all, I don't even remember visiting this site last night. :booze:

 

Do people realize that local governments/courts are passing laws and upholding injunctions to prevent the WBC from coming to town to protest. WBC is also being denied their rights to be anywhere near a funeral on the whims of local police. Unalienable rights, being suppressed. Because they are not popular. Hell, that bastion of progressiveness England banned them completely.

 

 

Freedom of speech and religion is not absolute.

[Saint Elistan 106]

*video*

 

I went out and found the transcript for you. I know you can't be bothered with things like context.

I doubt that it will matter to those that continue to debate this topic, but maybe it will to those that are just reading along - assuming there's any of them left.

 

Question:

 

The question I have, being Christian, and brought up a Christian but having a great tolerance of other religions, having been privileged to visit middle eastern countries and Africa and having been into mosques and understood Muslim people sharing with me their beliefs, all of that sits really well.

 

The issue that I don't know the answer to is that where in Islam there are fanatical people who teach their young people to do atrocities, like they have done, like our near neighbours and Jamia Islamia have done, and they do that in the name of Islam, they do it because they regard people like ourselves as infidels, etcetera, and they poison the minds of these young boys and girls to commit these atrocities in the name of Islam with a view to gaining eternal reward.

 

Why is it that the broader Muslim community, who we can co-exist very peacefully with great acceptance of one another's beliefs, why can't the broader community see that that sort of thing doesn't happen and control it and teach their young people that what those people are doing is really poisoning their minds and it is against their Islamic beliefs which you have alluded to earlier?

 

 

Answer:

 

That's a very important and excellent question. The answer is it is being done. The broader community is in fact criticising and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. I just came from a conference in Jordan, Amman where there were over 170 leading Muslim scholars from almost every part of the Muslim world, including some of the most important names like Sheikh Tantawi of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, who is the Chief Mufti of Egypt, the Chief Mufti of Jordan, the Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, who is a very very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world. They included fatwas obtained from people like ..... Istani who could not attend but also issued a fatwa condemning acts of terrorism and stating that the attribution of infidel to others is not something that should be done and is outside of the ethics of Islam.

 

Islamic law, the text of Islam, the Koran is quite explicit on describing Christians and Jews as people of the book, and throughout Islamic history even Islamic scholars in India have actually included Hindus as being people of the book because Hindus were not yet involved - were not part of the society, of Arabic society, at the time of the prophet.

 

The complexity arises, sir, from the fact that - from political problems and the history of the politics between the West and the Muslim world. We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US lead sanction against Iraq lead to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.

 

What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically, is the fact that the West has not been cognisant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world. It is a difficult subject to discuss with Western audiences but it is one that must be pointed out and must be raised.

 

How many of you have seen the documentary: Fahrenheit 911? The vast majority - at least half here. Do you remember the scene of the Iraqi woman whose house was bombed and she was just screaming, "What have they done." Now, I don't know, you don't know Arabic but in Arabic it was extremely powerful. Her house was gone. Her husband, I think, was killed. What wrong did he do? I found myself weeping when I watched that scene and I imagined myself if I were a 15-year old nephew of this deceased man, what would I have felt?

 

Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?

 

So I'm not - I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain. Half a million Iraqi - there's a sense in the Arab and Muslim world that the European world and Western world is just - does not care about our lives or human lives. There's a perception in much of the Arab world and the Muslim world that the issue is about race. That the Palestinian Israeli issue is less about religion than it is about race because about 25 per cent or more of the Palestinians or the Arabs are Christian. Many people in the West are unaware that Palestinians are not uniformally Muslim.

 

There is a large number of Arab Christians but they are not regarded as being equal. These issues have to be looked at, have to be recognised, have to be addressed and have to be solved. And this is why in our initiative we have urged a resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict as being number one on the list of things that need to be done because you address this problem and a whole host of problems will be addressed automatically.

 

How many of you have read the book: The Tipping Point? Are you familiar with that book? It is a fascinating book. I strongly recommend it. It talks about, and a very lovely example, there are many examples that I don't remember, about crime in New York City and how just the removal of graffiti on the subways, New York City subways, reduced crime in New York City. Now, how would you argue the link between graffiti on the walls of the subway and crime? It's hard to determine but in fact it was proven to be so.

 

It is much more evident to many people what the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict will do, and as Tony Blair is urging, urging, the resolution of this crisis and the lethargy with which the Bush administration has been actually engaged in trying to resolve this crisis amplifies the perception, in the Arab and Muslim world, that our pain is not heard. Our anguish is not heard. And simple things like when President Bush went to Iraq on Thanksgiving to address the United States troops based in Iraq, he did not speak at all to the Iraqi people.

 

He could have left a taped message addressing the Iraqi street congratulating them on removing a tyrant that they all wanted to have removed, and saying, you know: I have asked Congress to allot 70 billion dollars of which I'm hoping to have so much for education. Speak to the people. He does this every year in the United States. Imagine if he came to this country and there were US troops stationed here, spoke to them, didn't speak to the Australian people. How would you feel?

 

How many of you have seen the documentary: The Fog of War? It is an important documentary in which Robert McNamara was interviewed and it's a documentary which is supported by 11 or 12 - I think 11 lessons, if I'm not mistaken - and the first lesson he points out is empathise with the other side. The number one thing that we need on the part of the West is to empathise. To see yourselves from the eyes of the other.

 

If it's a man who wants to have a wonderful relationship with a woman, you have to see how you look from the eyes of a woman. If you are a white man seeking to deal in Australia with the Aborigines, you have to learn to look at yourself from the eyes of the Aborigines, and you will see things that you cannot see otherwise. The West needs to begin to see themselves through the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world, and when you do you will see the predicament that exists within the Muslim community.

 

I'm not saying this to condone. Acts like the London bombing are completely against Islamic law. Suicide bombing, completely against Islamic law, completely, 100 per cent. But the facts of the matter is that people, I have discovered, are more motivated by emotion than by logic. If their emotions are in one place and their logic is behind, their emotions will drive their decisions more often than not, and therefore we need to address the emotional state of people and the extent to which those emotions are shaped by things that we can control and we can shape, this is how we will shape a better future.

 

 

And as much as you want to put on your patriot hat and prance around saying WE IS CAN DO NO WRONG DERP DERP...the entirety of his answer is 100% agreeable.

Especially since he's speaking in the context of "Why do certain people feel this way" and not "Why do you feel this way" as the context of the video suggests.

 

This debate has seen propaganda on a scale that even Gerbels would be proud of.

[SUXBNME 1,501]

No sh1t. There are just retarded bigot @ssholes and their willing dupes walking around talking all kinds of stupid ch1t about how it might be a Trojan horse and offensive to New Yorkers blah blah blah. That's what you get when a dumb future pron star like Palin and a fat drug-addled slob like Limbaugh are the intellectual leaders of your party.

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

[MDC 7,425]

But whatever - my original statement addressed the policy of who it is bending over backwards so as to not offend the other side.

 

I think the fact that America is more tolerant than say Saudi Arabia is a good thing and something we should expect.