Panel Clears Way for Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Gepetto 1,368]

 

And it was Bob Barr, Gepetto.

 

What was Bob Barr? What is the "it" that you're talking about?

[drobeski 3,061]

Didn't the clown who made up this religion marry an 8 year old ?

 

 

Just saying, maybe its a pretty focked up religion.

Bet they wouldn't let fans of Charlie manson build a place of worship for him there.

[drobeski 3,061]

Just a few cute loving morsals from the religion of peace sure to be preached at the community center

 

 

 

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

 

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

 

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

 

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

 

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

 

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

 

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

 

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

 

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

 

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

 

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

 

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

 

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

 

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

 

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

 

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

 

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

 

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

 

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

 

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

 

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

 

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

 

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

 

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

 

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

 

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

 

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

 

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

 

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

 

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

 

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

 

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

 

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

 

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

[MDC 7,425]

Just a few cute loving morsals from the religion of peace sure to be preached at the community center

 

Good thing there's nothing offensive or stupid in the Bible.

[drobeski 3,061]

Good thing there's nothing offensive or stupid in the Bible.

Link to large groups of people murdering, maiming, raping, flying planes into buildings, gassing school girls, etc in the name of the bible.

TIA

[MDC 7,425]

Link to large groups of people murdering, maiming, raping, flying planes into buildings, gassing school girls, etc in the name of the bible.

TIA

 

My point was that the content of the Koran isn't all that different than the Bible and doesn't have much to do with terrorism.

 

hth

[drobeski 3,061]

My point was that the content of the Koran isn't all that different than the Bible and doesn't have much to do with terrorism.

 

hth

Im clicking your text and nothing is happening

[MDC 7,425]

Im clicking your text and nothing is happening

 

Try this link

 

Link

 

Link

 

Link

 

You may have heard of this protestant christian terrorist organization.

 

Enjoy!

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Try this link

 

Link

 

Link

 

Link

 

You may have heard of this protestant christian terrorist organization.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

So you link to the Crusades.......from 8 centuries ago.

 

And some nutty individuals?

 

Got anything from the Bible that is the equivalent of what he posted from the Koran? That was your claim, not that there are some whackjobs who claim to be Christians.

[MDC 7,425]

So you link to the Crusades.......from 8 centuries ago.

 

And some nutty individuals?

 

Nutty individuals who committed acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity.

 

Got anything from the Bible that is the equivalent of what he posted from the Koran?

 

Sure.

 

Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

On Destroying Other People

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

 

[MDC 7,425]

[RLLD 4,230]

Religion is poison, trying to compare Islam and Christianity is pure folly....they both suck. The only good thing about Christianity is the reformation, which Islam never went through so the retards still do the same stupid sh!t they were doing 2000 years ago.....

[mobb_deep 920]

Faith leaders denounce anti-Muslim sentiment

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/new.york.islamic.center.islamophobia/index.html?hpt=T1

 

New York (CNN) -- The imam at the center of an ugly controversy over an Islamic center near New York's ground zero broke his silence Tuesday, just hours after a broad coalition of Christian, Jewish and Islamic leaders denounced what they described as a rising tide of anti-Muslim bigotry across the United States.

 

"I have been struck by how the controversy has riveted the attention of Americans, as well as nearly everyone I met in my travels," said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf in an editorial published online by the New York Times Tuesday night.

 

"We have all been awed by how inflamed and emotional the issue of the proposed community center has become," wrote Rauf, who has just returned from a State Department-sponsored Middle East trip to promote U.S.-Muslim relations. "The level of attention reflects the degree to which people care about the very American values under debate: recognition of the rights of others, tolerance and freedom of worship."

 

The imam was clear about his intentions.

 

"We are proceeding with the community center, Cordoba House. More important, we are doing so with the support of the downtown community, government at all levels and leaders from across the religious spectrum, who will be our partners. I am convinced that it is the right thing to do for many reasons," he wrote.

 

Opponents of the plan to build the center say it is too close to the site of the terror attacks and is an affront to the memory of those who died in the al Qaeda strike. Backers cite, among other things, First Amendment rights and the need to express religious tolerance.

 

Rauf described the center to be built two blocks from the former site of the World Trade Center towers -- destroyed by terrorist-hijacked commercial jets on September 11, 2001 -- as a "shared space for community activities, like a swimming pool, classrooms and a play space for children."

 

"There will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths," he wrote. "The center will also include a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks."

 

"I am very sensitive to the feelings of the families of victims of 9/11, as are my fellow leaders of many faiths. We will accordingly seek the support of those families, and the support of our vibrant neighborhood, as we consider the ultimate plans for the community center. Our objective has always been to make this a center for unification and healing."

 

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg spoke on Tuesday about the plan and criticized politicians he claims are using the issue for political gain ahead of mid-term elections in November.

 

"This is a political thing that all came up in two months -- and its going to go away on November 4th," he said.

 

Various faith leaders in recent weeks have expressed concerns about hate crimes against American Muslims in the run-up to this weekend's anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks, which coincide with the holiday of Eid-al-Fitr, marking the conclusion of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

 

Worry over what some observers have termed "Islamophobia" has also been heightened by a Gainesville, Florida, church's plan to burn copies of the Quran on Saturday, the ninth anniversary of the attacks on New York and Washington.

 

Earlier Tuesday, a broad coalition of faith leaders gathered in Washington, where they met with Attorney General Eric Holder to discuss their concerns.

 

"To quote the attorney general, he called the Gainesville planned burning of Qurans 'idiotic and dangerous,'" said Farhana Khera, president of Muslim Advocates, soon after meeting with Holder.

 

"While it may not be a violation of the law -- it may be an act of free speech -- it certainly violates our sense of decency," she added about the Florida event.

 

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton echoed those thoughts later when she spoke at a dinner celebration of Iftar, the breaking the daily fast during Ramadan.

 

"I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths ... as well as secular U.S. leaders and opinion makers," she said.

 

Separately, founders of the newly formed Interfaith Coalition on Mosques addressed the issue of religious freedom during a news conference at Washington's National Press Club.

 

"Freedom of religion is a hallmark of this country," said Ingrid Mattson, head of the Islamic Society of North America. It is time to decide "whether we are going to live up to our values."

 

The coalition released a statement decrying a "disturbing rise in discrimination against Muslims" and declaring that the current "level of hostility, fear mongering and hate speech is unacceptable and un-American."

 

"We believe the best way to uphold America's democratic values is to ensure that Muslims can exercise the same religious freedom enjoyed by everyone in America," the statement read.

 

Last week, the Council on American-Islamic Relations launched a series of commercials designed to fight what it called growing Islamophobia. One in the series features a Muslim firefighter who was among the first responders on 9/11.

Opponents of the New York Islamic center are "trying to tell the world and tell Americans that Muslims do not belong here. That Muslims are the others, when we are in fact, all Americans," said Nahad Awad, executive director of the council.

 

"They're trying to portray Muslims as foreigners. This is a dangerous repeat of history. If it's allowed, it's going to hurt all of us," he said.

 

In a statement on its website, the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, said it plans to mark the anniversary of the 2001 attacks by burning Qurans this weekend "to warn about the teaching and ideology of Islam, which we do hate as it is hateful."

 

The pastor of the small church, Terry Jones, has written a book titled "Islam is of the Devil," and the church sells coffee mugs and shirts featuring the phrase.

 

The U.S. commander in Afghanistan on Monday criticized the church's plan, warning the demonstration "could cause significant problems" for American troops overseas.

 

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan," Gen. David Petraeus said.

 

Jones told CNN's "American Morning" on Tuesday that he is "taking the general's words" seriously. We are "weighing the situation" and are "praying about it," he said.

 

But it is "very important that America wakes up," he argued. Radical Islam "must be shown a certain amount of force (and) determination."

 

The planned event has drawn criticism from Muslims in the United States and overseas, with thousands of Indonesians gathering outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, on Sunday to protest the planned Quran burning.

 

"Those mainly conservative Christians who respond to their Muslim brothers and sisters -- their fellow Americans -- with anti-Muslim bigotry or hatred, they are openly rejecting... the First Amendment principles of religious liberty which we as evangelical Christians benefit daily," said Rev. Richard Cizik, of the New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good, at the National Press Club.

 

"And to those who would exercise derision ... bigotry (and) open rejection of our fellow Americans for their religious faith -- I say shame on you."

 

Atleast there's still a few clear thinkers left.

[tikigods 76]

Im clicking your text and nothing is happening

 

drobeski

 

/thread

[Gepetto 1,368]

How does one get in on this Quran burning? :hyper:

[JackARoot 2]

So you link to the Crusades.......from 8 centuries ago.

 

And some nutty individuals?

 

Got anything from the Bible that is the equivalent of what he posted from the Koran? That was your claim, not that there are some whackjobs who claim to be Christians.

 

 

No one will ever really know if Hitler believed he was a Christian, but he held himself out as one:

 

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

 

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

 

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

 

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

 

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

 

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

 

That recent enough for you RW?

[gocolts 300]

What's next, opening council meetings with muslim prayers???

[nikki2200 4]

I haven't read this thread, and I am very socially liberal (note I said socially) but based on the tone of this board I feel like I can say this:

 

THIS WHOLE MOSQUE THING NEAR GROUND ZERO IS SERIOUSLY EFFED UP!!!

 

It makes me really angry. And it makes me embarrassed that I am a liberal when I hear people saying stuff about tolerance and acceptance on this particular matter. Maybe part of this is because I grew up 10 miles from NYC and the whole 9/11 thing hit home hard.

 

But seriously???? How could you not be enraged by this???? It's clearly trying to give a big FU to the US and every person that lost a loved one in 9/11. Seriously? There's no other vacant real estate in NYC?

 

That's all.

[GettnHuge 2]

I haven't read this thread, and I am very socially liberal (note I said socially) but based on the tone of this board I feel like I can say this:

 

THIS WHOLE MOSQUE THING NEAR GROUND ZERO IS SERIOUSLY EFFED UP!!!

 

It makes me really angry. And it makes me embarrassed that I am a liberal when I hear people saying stuff about tolerance and acceptance on this particular matter. Maybe part of this is because I grew up 10 miles from NYC and the whole 9/11 thing hit home hard.

 

But seriously???? How could you not be enraged by this???? It's clearly trying to give a big FU to the US and every person that lost a loved one in 9/11. Seriously? There's no other vacant real estate in NYC?

 

That's all.

 

you can't pick and choose outrage specially identifying yourself that way. libs always do this. they support this anti-religion/but anything else

goes, crap. but then they have a kid who is taught sex ed at age 7 and are suddenly outraged. they support morons like the aclu, then get pissed

when their kid gets suspended for 3 days for using the word 'god' in school. wouldnt wanna get sued, after all. you don't like what someone of

another colour believes? It's racism!!

In for a penny

[nikki2200 4]

you can't pick and choose outrage specially identifying yourself that way. libs always do this. they support this anti-religion/but anything else

goes, crap. but then they have a kid who is taught sex ed at age 7 and are suddenly outraged. they support morons like the aclu, then get pissed

when their kid gets suspended for 3 days for using the word 'god' in school. wouldnt wanna get sued, after all. you don't like what someone of

another colour believes? It's racism!!

In for a penny

 

 

Yes. I realize that. And it embarrasses me. I REALLY REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION. But I will say a couple of things. Everything in this country has gotten so extreme to either the left or to the right. And both extremes sicken me. When I see people like Susan Sarandon (or other Hollywood elites that have no grasp on the real world) spewing out crap it makes me cringe. Sometimes Obama makes me cringe. Hearing about racism and people being oppressed in this country when it is almost as hard for a white male to get into a good college now as it was for a black male in the 1970s makes me cringe. WHEN SOMEONE AT WORK TELLS ME THEY WANT TO GIVE ME A PROMOTION BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN AND THAT IS APPEALING TO THEM, it makes me cringe. When an extremely large portion of my salary goes to support people I see on a daily basis collecting my money because they don't feel like working when I nearly blow out my tire on a huge pot hole every day or there is garbage all over the streets when I walk up to my apartment, it makes me cringe.

 

Mostly everything the far right spews makes me cringe much harder than everything I listed above.

 

Why does it have to be so extreme? Does everything need to be so far one way or the other? If you say you are a liberal, then you must be completely on board with everything that's on the pre-determined liberal ticket? Umm... No...

 

I am a liberal for two significant reasons and the conservatives made it so: Abortion and gay marriage. Sorry. Those are deal breakers for me. I can never get past that and I will claim to be liberal as long as both parties force me to make that claim.

 

And above all, I can't stomach the the Christian values stuff. Just can't do it. It has no place in government and I'm pretty sure the First Amendment tells me so.

 

But what you said represents exactly what is wrong with this country and the fact is, both sides are wrong. It's not supposed to be black and white, but they've forced us into that. I think we will be in a much better place when we can get back to the middle again and people don't have to choose a whole belief system based on either one extreme or the other.

[tikigods 76]

And above all, I can't stomach the the Christian values stuff. Just can't do it. It has no place in government and I'm pretty sure the First Amendment tells me so.

 

This is why I like you, wiffleball/newbiejr.

[phillybear 366]

I am a liberal for two significant reasons and the conservatives made it so: Abortion and gay marriage. Sorry. Those are deal breakers for me. I can never get past that and I will claim to be liberal as long as both parties force me to make that claim.

 

No offense, but in this day and age, you have to be a complete mongoloid to allow two such insignificant issues make up the rational for your political belief system.

 

BEEP. BEEP. HERE COMES THE RETARDDOZER.

[Frank M 181]

What's next, opening council meetings with muslim prayers???

 

Do you have a problem with opening council meetings with a Christian prayer?

 

Perhaps council meetings should be opened with no prayer.

[Frank M 181]

I haven't read this thread, and I am very socially liberal (note I said socially) but based on the tone of this board I feel like I can say this:

 

THIS WHOLE MOSQUE THING NEAR GROUND ZERO IS SERIOUSLY EFFED UP!!!

 

It makes me really angry. And it makes me embarrassed that I am a liberal when I hear people saying stuff about tolerance and acceptance on this particular matter. Maybe part of this is because I grew up 10 miles from NYC and the whole 9/11 thing hit home hard.

 

But seriously???? How could you not be enraged by this???? It's clearly trying to give a big FU to the US and every person that lost a loved one in 9/11. Seriously? There's no other vacant real estate in NYC?

 

That's all.

 

Nobody cares what you think, rookie.

 

HTH

[Secret Asian Man 43]

Nobody cares what you think, rookie.

 

HTH

 

That go for you too Frankie.

[Frank M 181]

That go for you too Frankie.

 

I know. Just making sure the newbie knows the score.

[corky 0]

Yes. I realize that. And it embarrasses me. I REALLY REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION. But I will say a couple of things. Everything in this country has gotten so extreme to either the left or to the right. And both extremes sicken me. When I see people like Susan Sarandon (or other Hollywood elites that have no grasp on the real world) spewing out crap it makes me cringe. Sometimes Obama makes me cringe. Hearing about racism and people being oppressed in this country when it is almost as hard for a white male to get into a good college now as it was for a black male in the 1970s makes me cringe. WHEN SOMEONE AT WORK TELLS ME THEY WANT TO GIVE ME A PROMOTION BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN AND THAT IS APPEALING TO THEM, it makes me cringe. When an extremely large portion of my salary goes to support people I see on a daily basis collecting my money because they don't feel like working when I nearly blow out my tire on a huge pot hole every day or there is garbage all over the streets when I walk up to my apartment, it makes me cringe.

 

Mostly everything the far right spews makes me cringe much harder than everything I listed above.

 

Why does it have to be so extreme? Does everything need to be so far one way or the other? If you say you are a liberal, then you must be completely on board with everything that's on the pre-determined liberal ticket? Umm... No...

 

I am a liberal for two significant reasons and the conservatives made it so: Abortion and gay marriage. Sorry. Those are deal breakers for me. I can never get past that and I will claim to be liberal as long as both parties force me to make that claim.

 

And above all, I can't stomach the the Christian values stuff. Just can't do it. It has no place in government and I'm pretty sure the First Amendment tells me so.

 

But what you said represents exactly what is wrong with this country and the fact is, both sides are wrong. It's not supposed to be black and white, but they've forced us into that. I think we will be in a much better place when we can get back to the middle again and people don't have to choose a whole belief system based on either one extreme or the other.

Who is this loony kunt? Take it to the curly bored.

[Gepetto 1,368]

Yes. I realize that. And it embarrasses me. I REALLY REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION. But I will say a couple of things. Everything in this country has gotten so extreme to either the left or to the right. And both extremes sicken me. When I see people like Susan Sarandon (or other Hollywood elites that have no grasp on the real world) spewing out crap it makes me cringe. Sometimes Obama makes me cringe. Hearing about racism and people being oppressed in this country when it is almost as hard for a white male to get into a good college now as it was for a black male in the 1970s makes me cringe. WHEN SOMEONE AT WORK TELLS ME THEY WANT TO GIVE ME A PROMOTION BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN AND THAT IS APPEALING TO THEM, it makes me cringe. When an extremely large portion of my salary goes to support people I see on a daily basis collecting my money because they don't feel like working when I nearly blow out my tire on a huge pot hole every day or there is garbage all over the streets when I walk up to my apartment, it makes me cringe.

 

Mostly everything the far right spews makes me cringe much harder than everything I listed above.

 

Why does it have to be so extreme? Does everything need to be so far one way or the other? If you say you are a liberal, then you must be completely on board with everything that's on the pre-determined liberal ticket? Umm... No...

 

I am a liberal for two significant reasons and the conservatives made it so: Abortion and gay marriage. Sorry. Those are deal breakers for me. I can never get past that and I will claim to be liberal as long as both parties force me to make that claim.

 

And above all, I can't stomach the the Christian values stuff. Just can't do it. It has no place in government and I'm pretty sure the First Amendment tells me so.

 

But what you said represents exactly what is wrong with this country and the fact is, both sides are wrong. It's not supposed to be black and white, but they've forced us into that. I think we will be in a much better place when we can get back to the middle again and people don't have to choose a whole belief system based on either one extreme or the other.

 

So you support killing unborn babies and gay sex. Not sure how anyone can think like that, but hey, you gotta be you.

[naomi 356]

My point was that the content of the Koran isn't all that different than the Bible and doesn't have much to do with terrorism.

 

There is a lot of violence in the bible, especially the OT. As you probably already know, the violence that happens in the NT is persecution of Christ and his followers, and much of the violence in the OT was to the end of preserving Israel, the tribe of David, the lineage of Christ.

 

What you don't have in the bible is any rationale that people can become Christians based on works or the will of man. There's no call to use force to convert people. It's not just immoral, it would be futile in light of biblical doctrine. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God." As a non-Catholic Christian I can't help but see that it's at least consistent that a group who believes that a wretched sinner can earn his justification would have forced "conversions" in their history. Catholics definitely aren't the only ones who miss the boat, or pervert it, though. Identifying with Christianity when it's only tradition fueled in substance will net legalism. "Having a form of godliness" but in actuality '"denying the power thereof." (denying Christ).

 

I haven't read enough of the Koran and the hadiths to really know if the Islamic caliphates that call for violence don't contradict it, but Christianity that reconciles with the bible is the only religion that preaches grace. If you don't have grace, you have people looking to men, who determine how you can look to yourself, and they hold themselves up as holy mediators. If the bible is true and all men are fallen, it's a devilish system any time any dogma points that way.

 

As an aside, the dynamic between Arabs and Jews, and what has happened all along to the Jewish people in history, including a shaking of nations that would cause Jews to return to their homeland en masse, and becoming a nation again the bible said would happen. Unless someone wants to argue that the holocaust was a ruse to make biblical prophecy come true, it's interesting. "As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations, gather them from the countries, and bring them to their own land."

 

For those of you who wish the U.S. would stop having Israel's back so much, that's probably not far off. I don't think we should ever support Israel for any reason besides doing what's just, or just doing what's in our own strategic best interest (as long as it's not unjust.) There's no reason to have a knee-jerk alliance. But, if history continues going like the bible says it will unfold, "all the people of the earth" will turn against Israel ultimately. It's actually fascinating looking down the line of history and taking stock of what's happened, but most of the major prophetical movements before epic ###### hits the fan with them have taken place, that's the next one to look for.

[tikigods 76]

For those of you who wish the U.S. would stop having Israel's back so much, that's probably not far off. I don't think we should ever support Israel for any reason besides doing what's just, or just doing what's in our own strategic best interest (as long as it's not unjust.) There's no reason to have a knee-jerk alliance. But, if history continues going like the bible says it will unfold, "all the people of the earth" will turn against Israel ultimately. It's actually fascinating looking down the line of history and taking stock of what's happened, but most of the major prophetical movements before epic shit hits the fan with them have taken place, that's the next one to look for.

 

I'm not pro-Israel. I really wish the United States would return to isolationism.