I've Fallen and I Can't Get Up

[nikki2200 4]

I also am a healthy weight and exercise almost daily. After I injured my back I changed the types of exercise I do, and I think it has allowed my back to heal such that I seldom have troubles with it. Of course it's impossible to know what would've happened had I continued doing the same things. But injuring your back doing something as minor as laundry suggests there is room for improvement in your regimen.

 

There is a great expression: "The enemy of good is great." You may never have trouble with your back again, but I'd use this minor incident as an opportunity to lessen the chance that you do.

 

Blah blah blah. So you are saying Old Maid's workout regime is not adequate because she threw out her back bending over for laundry, however whatever you did to your back is more legitimate because you are a better worker outer? Blah blah blah.

 

You also realize that you are a lot younger than a lot of us and your body changes over time and fock if the smallest things that you used to do don't all of a sudden cause you issues. I used to be able to sit in the lotus position for 8 hours straight with no issue. Now? Yea... not so much. Two hours and I'm limping for 15 minutes. But you are web MD so you should already know that.

[Giants Fan 85]

The losing 5 pounds thing is optional. But like I said, often times, it will make you feel better. For some people, that are significantly overweight, 5 pounds wont help much.

 

Do you think losing 5 pounds might help your back problems? Just maybe? Ok, I'm saying that's possible. Am I saying you need to lose weight ... I'm not a doctor ... and I don't know how much you weigh. I know, In MY CASE, losing just a little bit of weight made a big difference.

 

Made my shlong look longer too.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Blah blah blah. So you are saying Old Maid's workout regime is not adequate because she threw out her back bending over for laundry, however whatever you did to your back is more legitimate because you are a better worker outer? Blah blah blah.

 

You also realize that you are a lot younger than a lot of us and your body changes over time and fock if the smallest things that you used to do don't all of a sudden cause you issues. I used to be able to sit in the lotus position for 8 hours straight with no issue. Now? Yea... not so much. Two hours and I'm limping for 15 minutes. But you are web MD so you should already know that.

Oh here we go again.

 

To clarify, I'm saying I wasn't doing all I could to prevent a back injury, but learned from my mistakes instead of stubbornly assuming I was doing everything right. And my back injury is no more, or less, legitimate than others, regardless of their age. As an aside, I think I am about the same age as others who have back problems, including on this bored. Certainly not "a lot younger".

 

And while getting older will slow all of us down, there is huge variability in individual functionality and injury/disease. Some of it is due to good genes and a little luck, but a lot is under our control. So you don't lash out at my "web MD" background, how do you think someone like Newbie's propensity for low back injury compares to OldMaid's?

[nikki2200 4]

Oh here we go again.

 

To clarify, I'm saying I wasn't doing all I could to prevent a back injury, but learned from my mistakes instead of stubbornly assuming I was doing everything right. And my back injury is no more, or less, legitimate than others, regardless of their age. As an aside, I think I am about the same age as others who have back problems, including on this bored. Certainly not "a lot younger".

 

And while getting older will slow all of us down, there is huge variability in individual functionality and injury/disease. Some of it is due to good genes and a little luck, but a lot is under our control. So you don't lash out at my "web MD" background, how do you think someone like Newbie's propensity for low back injury compares to OldMaid's?

 

You were telling Old Maid that you were super fit like her, but you didn't have any experiences that would lead you to believe you could hurt yourself doing a minor task. I'm saying welcome to old age mofo. And from everything I can remember you are a lot younger than both of us and you have a lot of painful experiences in your future.b

[penultimatestraw 473]

You were telling Old Maid that you were super fit like her, but you didn't have any experiences that would lead you to believe you could hurt yourself doing a minor task. I'm saying welcome to old age mofo. And from everything I can remember you are a lot younger than both of us and you have a lot of painful experiences in your future.b

I never said I was super fit, and I didn't tell you how my back was injured. Exercising daily and being a healthy weight doesn't guarantee fitness, let alone "super" fitness BTW.

 

I wasn't trying to toot my own horn; rather, I was suggesting even when you think you are doing the right things for your health, there may be room for improvement. Sometimes an injury opens one's eyes to this opportunity, or you can blow it off as a natural part of getting old. OM can do whatever the he!! she pleases now that she has had this experience, but maybe, just maybe, she should try something different to stave off her next episode.

 

I am 40 - how old are you? OldMaid? Pretty sure you both are about the same age as me - maybe even younger!

[nikki2200 4]

I don't know why a 20 year old pre-med student would pretend to know what they were talking about? - so I can't confirm or deny whether anything you are saying is actually pretend to be a 40 year old fake doctor - wtf is it that you actually valid or just a result of your unmatchable google skills.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

I don't know why a 20 year old pre-med student would pretend to know what they were talking about? - so I can't confirm or deny whether anything you are saying is actually pretend to be a 40 year old fake doctor - wtf is it that you actually valid or just a result of your unmatchable google skills.

There are times when you come off as being super b!tchy. I think that this is one of those times.

[shotsup 836]

There are times when you come off as being super b!tchy. I think that this is one of those times.

 

Some times ????

[drobeski 3,061]

Do you feel better? Did you take a bunch of advil?

 

Don't listen to these people. Apparently I have multiple sclerosis. I should have my orthopedic surgeon forward my scans to the members of FFT for a second opinion, because he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

For the record, I wouldn't say I have "chronic pain". I have a displaced disk in my upper back as a result of falling down a flight of stairs. Freak rare injury.... yes. It actually hasn't acted up in years, but mostly that is because I have learned there are certain limitations in my life and things I cannot do anymore. For instance, ignoring the warning signs flashing all over the place on P90X saying do not perform the workouts if you have a bad back are not something that should be ignored... apparently. Shoulder stands = bad.

 

Or maybe this will be me in 5 years: http://www.newdisability.com/Wheelchair%20Umbrella/Umbrella%20Buddy%20Wheelchair%202.jpg

Dating chronic husker at the time ?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Some times ????

 

In all honesty, I originally typed, "There are many times...", but I am trying out a "kindler, gentler" me.

[jerryskids 7,192]

As much as I'd like to pile on, I hope you're on the mend and pain-free ASAP.

 

BTW, I read a bit about the author of your book and his methodology. A lot of what he says isn't radical at all. Cognitive behavioral therapy and biofeedback are other "alternative" approaches to the treatment of pain and fatigue which may have some merit. He loses me when he totally invalidates a physical/structural problem contributing to pain, while simultaneously suggesting conventional medical evaluation be pursued. Reminds me of a bunch of other commercialized "alternative" practitioners: they'll promote their products/propaganda at the expense of conventional therapies, but when the sh!t hits the fan they dump their patients on regular doctors.

I don't know what you read, but it wasn't the book, because he doesn't totally invalidate anything.

 

I understand the whole concept and I don't think it is total BS. I mean maybe I read too much on the interwebs but I'm one of those people that thinks fibromyalgia is not a real disease and it's basically a bunch of people suffering from depression, and therefore experiencing the symptoms that accompany it, which a lot of times can be unexplained aches and pains. But jerry likes to bring up this book whenever anyone talks about back pain and it is a bit insulting. I'm sure there are a lot of cases of people that get muscle spasms or general pain due to depression or stress. That does not mean that anyone that suffers back pain can read a book and it will automagically go away. I wish it were that simple and I could do P90X Yoga X again some day after reading a magic book.

It's only insulting if you lack the openmindedness to consider alternatives to your myopic views.

 

It's no coincidence that some of the meds used to treat FM are antidepressants.

 

And Jerry is the king of implying his openminded allows understanding things the rest of us are too dumb to comprehend.

as penult points out.

[Eagles Green 34]

I've actually learned to sleep in a way that stretches my lower back. I switch from side to side, and I have one foot dangling over the edge of the mattress

Maybe because you still sleep on the same race car bed you had as a kid. You know, because you haven't left home yet.

 

[DankNuggs 305]

Blah blah blah. So you are saying Old Maid's workout regime is not adequate because she threw out her back bending over for laundry, however whatever you did to your back is more legitimate because you are a better worker outer? Blah blah blah.

 

You also realize that you are a lot younger than a lot of us and your body changes over time and fock if the smallest things that you used to do don't all of a sudden cause you issues. I used to be able to sit in the lotus position for 8 hours straight with no issue. Now? Yea... not so much. Two hours and I'm limping for 15 minutes. But you are web MD so you should already know that.

I get minor injuries weekly from my old man hockey league... Its embarrassing...Shoulder, hip, knee... Different thing every week... And im not that old, just out of my 20's...

[penultimatestraw 473]

I don't know why a 20 year old pre-med student would pretend to know what they were talking about? - so I can't confirm or deny whether anything you are saying is actually pretend to be a 40 year old fake doctor - wtf is it that you actually valid or just a result of your unmatchable google skills.

Holy carp. Now I am a 20-year old student. What have I ever said that indicates I am faking my age and/or profession? Funny how I can explain medical problems without a link, too.

[penultimatestraw 473]

There are times when you come off as being super b!tchy. I think that this is one of those times.

This guy gets it.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I get minor injuries weekly from my old man hockey league... Its embarrassing...Shoulder, hip, knee... Different thing every week... And im not that old, just out of my 20's...

You complain like a man twice your age. I could've sworn you and Phurfur were contemporaries.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

It's no coincidence that some of the meds used to treat FM are antidepressants.

 

And Jerry is the king of implying his openminded allows understanding things the rest of us are too dumb to comprehend.

 

I'm curious: what's the general thought on fibromyalgia in the medical community? Is it a real physical condition or mainly mental? How often is malingering suspected?

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Holy carp. Now I am a 20-year old student. What have I ever said that indicates I am faking my age and/or profession? Funny how I can explain medical problems without a link, too.

 

Maybe Nikki has you confused with medstudent? Who knows with that crazy broad.

[DankNuggs 305]

You complain like a man twice your age. I could've sworn you and Phurfur were contemporaries.

Wiser and younger, my vocabulary extends beyond song lyrics and the political musings of De Tocqueville.

[DankNuggs 305]

Maybe Nikki has you confused with medstudent? Who knows with that crazy broad.

Its no coincidence that her bewbs look like the eyeballs in this emoticon...

[penultimatestraw 473]

I'm curious: what's the general thought on fibromyalgia in the medical community? Is it a real physical condition or mainly mental? How often is malingering suspected?

Most doctors cannot stand fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, irritable bowel and related disorders. Many think it is psychosomatic and related to underlying psychiatric illness, as Nikki suggested.

 

Personally I think there are legitimate differences in pain perception. Some people are so sensitive even "normal" stimuli are painful - this can be shown in a controlled setting using devices called dolorimeters. There are other experiments where air is insufflated into the rectum and IBSers nerve responses are measured versus normal controls. It turns out their colons are more likely to spasm than those without the disease, so it's no surprise they experience chronic abdominal cramps.

 

It's hard to separate the physical from mental, as the everything we experience can be distilled to chemical reactions and the brain's interpretation of them. That being said, a lot of people with chronic pain are crazy, though its hard to determine if the pain is the chicken or the egg. Can you imagine you mental state if you suffered debilitating pain your entire life?

 

Malingering isn't that common, but I've seen it from time to time. Drug dependence and drug-seeking behavior are much more prevalent.

 

All this is off the top of my head; I won't fact check anything to see if all my studying has paid off.

[OldMaid 2,137]

I get minor injuries weekly from my old man hockey league... Its embarrassing...Shoulder, hip, knee... Different thing every week... And im not that old, just out of my 20's...

 

Maybe it's because you are an uptight pr!ck. If you removed the stick from your a$$, you might loosen up a little.

 

:smooches:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[penultimatestraw 473]

Wiser and younger, my vocabulary extends beyond song lyrics and the political musings of De Tocqueville.

True, but fock, youth is the time to be idealistic. Don't grow bitter before your time.

[penultimatestraw 473]

I don't know what you read, but it wasn't the book, because he doesn't totally invalidate anything.

I looked at the book's website, wikipedia and a medscape interview. He consistently poo-poos a physical basis for pain. The solicitations to buy his products are a big red flag about his underlying motivation.

[DankNuggs 305]

True, but fock, youth is the time to be idealistic. Don't grow bitter before your time.

i don't think im bitter, i think im abrasive.

[DankNuggs 305]

If you removed the stick from your a$$, you might loosen up a little.

 

:smooches:

 

 

 

I'll try that tonight when i play... It may effect my skating balance tho... The tripod training wheel was working pretty well

[BunnysBastatrds 2,702]

There's something missing from this thread and I can't put my finger on it.

[jerryskids 7,192]

I looked at the book's website, wikipedia and a medscape interview. He consistently poo-poos a physical basis for pain. The solicitations to buy his products are a big red flag about his underlying motivation.

 

Well, here is his Wiki:

 

 

Sarno's most notable (and controversial) achievement is the development, diagnosis and treatment of TMS, which is not accepted by mainstream medicine.^[1][2] According to Sarno, TMS is a psychosomatic illness causing chronic back, neck, and limb pain which is not relieved by standard medical treatments. He includes other ailments, such as gastrointestinal problems, dermatological disorders and repetitive-strain injuries as TMS related. Sarno states that he has successfully treated over ten thousand patients at the Rusk Institute by educating them on his beliefs of a psychological and emotional basis to their pain and symptoms.^[3] Sarno's theory is, in part, that the pain or GI symptoms are an unconscious "distraction" to aid in the repression of deep unconscious emotional issues. Sarno believes that when patients think about what may be upsetting them in their unconscious, they can defeat their minds' strategy to repress these powerful emotions; when the symptoms are seen for what they are, the symptoms then serve no purpose, and they go away. Supporters of Sarno's work hypothesize an inherent difficulty in performing the clinical trials needed to prove or disprove the diagnosis, since it is difficult to use clinical trials with psychosomatic illnesses.^[4]

 

Sarno wrote about his experience in this area in his first book on TMS, Mind Over Back Pain.^[5] His second book, Healing Back Pain: The Mind-Body Connection,^[6] has sold over 150,000 copies.^[2] Sarno's most recent book, The Divided Mind: The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders,^[7] featured chapters by six other doctors and addressing the entire spectrum of psychosomatic disorders and the history of psychosomatic medicine.

 

 

Statistical studies of TMS treatment

Sarno's books describe two follow-up surveys of his TMS patients. The first in 1982 interviewed 177 patients selected randomly from those Sarno treated in the preceding three years. 76% stated that they were leading normal and effectively pain-free lives. A second follow-up study in 1987 restricted the population surveyed to those with herniated discs identified on CT-scans, and 88% of the 109 randomly selected patients stated that they were free of pain one to three years after TMS treatment.^[8]

 

In 2007, David Schechter (a medical doctor and former student and research assistant of Sarno) published a peer-reviewed^[9] study of TMS treatment showing a 54% success rate for chronic back pain. The average pain duration for the study's patients was 9 years. In terms of statistical significance and success rate, the study outperformed similar studies of other psychological interventions for chronic back pain.^[10]

 

 

I think that your problem is that you infer from such statements that he is saying ALL back pain is psychosomatic. He doesn't say that. Obviously people can injure their backs. Now, if you are talking about chronic pain which goes on for months or years, or consistently recurs over such spans... you may be closer to accurately representing his theories. He describes his reasoning in his book; I would just get it wrong if I tried to repeat it.

 

I feel like spreading the word about this book is one of the positive things I can do in life. I saw how it helped my wife, one of the most physically fit and active people I know who spent months barely able to move (and we happened to be going through some stressful times as well). My daughter and myself as well. Perhaps to be open to the idea, you need to spend months in severe pain, seeing docs and chiros, getting nowhere. Or watching someone close to you go through it.

 

It doesn't always work, as the wiki link indicates. But neither do "conventional" approaches.

 

 

[nikki2200 4]

There are times when you come off as being super b!tchy. I think that this is one of those times.

 

 

That just made me crack up. I'm going to be honest here though... I really question that penultimatestraw is who he says he is sometimes. I really do. I'll leave it at that.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Well, here is his Wiki:

 

 

 

 

I think that your problem is that you infer from such statements that he is saying ALL back pain is psychosomatic. He doesn't say that. Obviously people can injure their backs. Now, if you are talking about chronic pain which goes on for months or years, or consistently recurs over such spans... you may be closer to accurately representing his theories. He describes his reasoning in his book; I would just get it wrong if I tried to repeat it.

 

I feel like spreading the word about this book is one of the positive things I can do in life. I saw how it helped my wife, one of the most physically fit and active people I know who spent months barely able to move (and we happened to be going through some stressful times as well). My daughter and myself as well. Perhaps to be open to the idea, you need to spend months in severe pain, seeing docs and chiros, getting nowhere. Or watching someone close to you go through it.

 

It doesn't always work, as the wiki link indicates. But neither do "conventional" approaches.

From Medscape:

Medscape: According to your theory, structural abnormalities don't even contribute to the condition.

 

Dr. Sarno: In my experience they have nothing to do with the problem in many cases. I can't say in 100% of instances, but in many, many cases I've concluded that they have nothing to do with the problem. Of course, my proof is that my patients get better. They couldn't possibly have gotten better if the pain were due to the structural abnormality.

The implication that his method alone is responsible for improvements is self-serving and ignores healing/remodeling that can occur in structural abnormalities over time. Most people will experience back pain over the course of their lifetime and most of them will not develop chronic pan; his techniques may help for a portion of those who do. I just think he is overstating the importance of his theories. But from the wikipedia link:

According to Sarno, TMS is a psychosomatic illness causing chronic back, neck, and limb pain which is not relieved by standard medical treatments.

So be definition, TMS are those that have filed conventional therapies first. Not like OM.

[jerryskids 7,192]

 

That just made me crack up. I'm going to be honest here though... I really question that penultimatestraw is who he says he is sometimes. I really do. I'll leave it at that.

Says the chick who is friends IRL with another chick who lives 3000 miles away, and both post on a low-rent FF message bored.

[nikki2200 4]

Says the chick who is friends IRL with another chick who lives 3000 miles away, and both post on a low-rent FF message bored.

 

With all due respect..... what?

[DankNuggs 305]

With all due respect..... what?

Your pain is fake and its because you are batzhit crazy.

[nikki2200 4]

Your pain is fake and its because you are batzhit crazy.

 

Makes perfect sense.

 

 

If that was an attempt to be funny, it failed Phurfur Jr.

[jerryskids 7,192]

From Medscape: The implication that his method alone is responsible for improvements is self-serving and ignores healing/remodeling that can occur in structural abnormalities over time. Most people will experience back pain over the course of their lifetime and most of them will not develop chronic pan; his techniques may help for a portion of those who do. I just think he is overstating the importance of his theories. But from the wikipedia link: So be definition, TMS are those that have filed conventional therapies first. Not like OM.

Agreed on OM -- my gut reaction when I hear somebody has days of debilitating back pain from bending over is TMS. But if it is the first time it has occurred to her, it is probably just that she is a fatty. If it is a chronically recurring problem, it is more likely TMS.

 

Otherwise, I don't know what you are arguing. If somebody spends 9 years with chronic back pain, and after seeing Dr. Sarno or reading his work feels better within a week, are you saying that it was a coincidental timing of some final structural healing?

 

Also, despite your quote, in the book he talks several times about real injuries initiating TMS.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Most doctors cannot stand fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, irritable bowel and related disorders. Many think it is psychosomatic and related to underlying psychiatric illness, as Nikki suggested.

 

Personally I think there are legitimate differences in pain perception. Some people are so sensitive even "normal" stimuli are painful - this can be shown in a controlled setting using devices called dolorimeters. There are other experiments where air is insufflated into the rectum and IBSers nerve responses are measured versus normal controls. It turns out their colons are more likely to spasm than those without the disease, so it's no surprise they experience chronic abdominal cramps.

 

It's hard to separate the physical from mental, as the everything we experience can be distilled to chemical reactions and the brain's interpretation of them. That being said, a lot of people with chronic pain are crazy, though its hard to determine if the pain is the chicken or the egg. Can you imagine you mental state if you suffered debilitating pain your entire life?

 

Malingering isn't that common, but I've seen it from time to time. Drug dependence and drug-seeking behavior are much more prevalent.

 

All this is off the top of my head; I won't fact check anything to see if all my studying has paid off.

 

Interesting. I didn't know irritable bowel syndrome was lumped in there with those others. I thought it had a little more grounding in observable medical symptoms. Anyway, every time I hear someone talk about FM and/or CFS, it makes me wonder what the docs really think about those conditions.

[Giants Fan 85]

I just thought I was going to fart ... let's call it IBS.

[Giants Fan 85]

Interesting. I didn't know irritable bowel syndrome was lumped in there with those others. I thought it had a little more grounding in observable medical symptoms. Anyway, every time I hear someone talk about FM and/or CFS, it makes me wonder what the docs really think about those conditions.

 

Sorry ... you are going o die.

 

That sucks for u.

[Mike Honcho 5,543]

I also am a healthy weight and exercise almost daily. After I injured my back I changed the types of exercise I do, and I think it has allowed my back to heal such that I seldom have troubles with it. Of course it's impossible to know what would've happened had I continued doing the same things. But injuring your back doing something as minor as laundry suggests there is room for improvement in your regimen.

 

There is a great expression: "The enemy of good is great." You may never have trouble with your back again, but I'd use this minor incident as an opportunity to lessen the chance that you do.

 

I disagree with your thesis there. I was working out, grabbed a relatively light weight and twisted/lifted at the same time and suffered a pretty painful lower back strain. Really hobbled me for about a week. Improper lifting, even very light weights can do that to a person.

 

ETA: I see you expanded on your original statement, as at first it sounded a bit as if you were saying she wasn't fit enough.

[Giants Fan 85]

The only fair thing to do if you give up ... is just waive all your players. Each and every one, and may the best kicker win.

 

Seriuos.