Justina Pelletier

[FeelingMN 273]

First of all, gay brains look different on "brain imaging" which, using my computer analogy, it's like saying that you can find patterns in memory activity among computers that run Windows different from computers that run MacOS. What does it say about MacOS being a software bug just because most personal computers run Windows? Absolutely nothing. If I give you a computer that is turned off, you cannot tell a computer that ran Windows from a computer that run MacOS. The same is true with dead brains and DSM labels: you cannot tell one from another in an autopsy. So the whole notion of "mental illness as brain diseases" is nonsense.

With respect to "causing too much a burden", since that is the responsibility of the criminal justice system (ie, policing that people do not bother other people and punish those that do), can you explain to me why do we need psychiatrists and their made up notions of "normality" that they can impose by force?

Is there a big push to classify mental illness as a disease or something? As if being a disorder makes it less real? Whatever....Insel is working at improving the labels without killing psychiatry altogether. I'd think you'd be more supportive.

 

And actually, it should be up to me and mine to determine what is too much of a burden. If I'm bipolar and can't hold down a job, and my behavior places too much of a burden on the rest of my family, then there should be an option for me besides incarceration or homelessness. That's what psychiatry offers.

 

Your hero Dr. Frances doesn't believe we should be treating mental illness via the criminal justice system:

 

Meanwhile, the drug companies push the prescribing of expensive new medications, while at least a million Americans are receiving their mental health care via the prison system. Allen argues "It shouldn't be that we deliver our psychiatric services to patients after we make them prisoners. We should be getting the kind of community care and housing that's common in the rest of the world. We're barbaric; we've gone back two hundred years, imprisoning psychiatric patients."

http://brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2013/dangers-of-diagnostic-inflation-bsp-102

 

They must have ingrained such barbarianism as part of your rigorous scientific training.

[KSB2424 3,171]

It's not often we get a guest mental patient to liven things up. And to reiterate just why there are insane asylums.

 

I didn't have that take away at all. I just today stumbled on this thread and my take away is that this Phsyc dude simply is passionate about this topic as he has first hand personal experience. He brought a LOT to the table, backed up a LOT of his stances and changed the minds of some over the evolution of the thread if you read from start to finish like I did since I just now came across it.

 

Sure he might be passionate, and maybe OCD or whatnot. But who cares? You know what they call kids with a little OCD? Future Engineers. Mental health is so misunderstood in this country and its so demonized and looked down upon. I rather enjoyed the thread and didn't think this dude was crazy at all. Passionate? Sure. Crazy? Nope. If he is crazy.....then a crazy guy just pimp slapped like a half a dozen Geeks at once.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,544]

I'll guess Bunny?

 

 

 

 

 

You guess "Bunny" what?

[FeelingMN 273]

In the wee hours of a frigid winter morning, a wanderer considered both odd and smart towed a toy wagon through a field and along a line of power poles. Rattling in his wagon were random items: a can of spray paint, a sleeve of golf balls, a gas can, a chain saw.

 

An Orchard Park patrolman saw him step out of some woods and didn’t buy his story that he was out hunting for firewood and returnable bottles – not in 10-degree weather at 4 a.m. But seeing no crime and knowing something about the man’s past, the officer got him to a hospital for a mental check-up.

 

Ten days later, a wind storm toppled three of Orchard Park’s wooden power poles. The National Grid crew that restored electrical service to 6,300 customers discovered the poles had been cut three-quarters of the way through with a chain saw and left to snap.

 

Detectives zeroed in on the fellow with the Radio Flyer Wagon, Gregory J. Seifert.

 

In January 2012, Seifert had just turned 43. Nearly 6 feet tall, he was lean and handsome, with close-cropped hair and a wary gaze. In a suit, he could look like a business consultant – which is what he was when he earned more than $100,000 a year setting up computer networks. But that winter, after moving in with his parents because he had nowhere else to go, he sometimes walked the streets in bare feet.

 

James and Carol Seifert could not convince their oldest son that he was sick. Nor could they place him long-term in a state psychiatric center, even after multiple evaluations. The number of state-provided psychiatric beds had fallen to historic lows, and though their son had worsened for almost a decade, he was not seen as dangerous to himself or others, a crucial legal threshold for involuntary commitment.

 

After an hours-long interrogation, Orchard Park police formally accused Seifert of sawing into the power poles and booked him into the Erie County Holding Center. It was Jan. 23, 2012.

 

Gregory Seifert was finally in an institution. But it was the wrong one for someone seriously mentally ill.

 

Decades after the country began closing mental institutions en masse, jails and prisons have become America’s de facto psychiatric centers. Psychiatrists say that about a third of the severely ill people who, 50 years ago, would have been placed in a psychiatric center still need a structured setting. But today’s structured setting is often a jail or prison.

 

As the new century approached, the number of mentally ill inmates in New York’s prisons was exploding. During a 13-year period – from 1991 through 2004 –the volume of inmates receiving treatment grew by 71 percent, three times faster than the general population, according to the Correctional Association of New York, an independent prison watchdog for almost 170 years.

 

The new reality is that roughly one of every seven prisoners is on the state Office of Mental Health caseload. The number of seriously ill inmates has waned in recent years, along with the overall state prison population and the growth of mental health courts and prison-diversion programs. But the 7,800 mentally ill inmates are too many for the system’s designated treatment units, said Jack Beck, who visits prisons for the Correctional Association.

 

The consequences are serious, for mentally ill inmates and the community:

 

• Mentally ill inmates nationwide are more likely to become sexual victims while behind bars. Some 6.3 percent of state and federal inmates with “serious psychological distress” reported that they had been victimized by another inmate. That’s nine times greater than the percentage of victims with no mental disorder, according to the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics.

 

• Inmates in designated mental health units are involved – as victims or perpetrators – in more assaults, contraband violations, self-injuries and other “unusual incidents” than general population inmates in New York’s most dangerous prisons. The rate of unusual incidents among prisoners in six of the system’s specially established mental health units in 2011 was more than three times the rate for Auburn Correctional Facility, a notorious maximum-security prison.

 

• Mentally ill inmates are easily preyed upon by general population inmates. Sometimes called “bugs,” inmates with psychiatric disorders are enlisted to run drugs or fill other dangerous tasks. A mentally ill or developmentally delayed inmate is “like a lamb or a zebra to a lion,” one prison-based mental health worker said. “Easy pickings.”

 

• Studies suggest that mentally ill inmates released from prison are more likely to re-offend if they return to drug abuse – which often accompanies mental illness – and drop the prescribed medicines they received in prison. The more effective the treatment while they are in prison, the less likely they will cause problems once paroled.

 

Many of the people in charge argue that caring for the mentally ill should not be their job. But jail and prison rosters are likely to grow.

 

In New York, the state intends to close more psychiatric centers starting next year.

 

“Talk about cruel and inhumane,” said Chautauqua County Sheriff Joe Gerace. “Having them in jail because they are problematic in society is not their choice. A treatment facility is much more appropriate.”

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/being-mentally-ill-and-imprisoned-talk-about-cruel-and-inhumane-20131208

 

Lengthy article here, but a very good read. Shows why we need treatment centers and really exposes the futility of psychsurvivor's thinking.

[FeelingMN 273]

You guess "Bunny" what?

GTG.

 

[FeelingMN 273]

People with mental illness are increasingly ending up being imprisoned, rather than in the mental health care system where many of them belong. With the down economy, states and counties — who are primarily responsible for the health of the indigent — cut social services first. And with most public psychiatric hospitals long-since closed, people who have a mental disorder end up being warehoused not in hospitals, but in prisons.

 

Yes, we succeeded in closing down the state mental hospitals. But we moved the population not to outpatient facilities, but to our prisons.

 

Now, finally, people are realizing the short-sightedness of locking people with mental illness up, as the spiraling prison costs of doing so become a burden to cash-strapped local governments.

 

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/07/18/imprisoning-people-with-mental-illness/

 

Another good article.

 

I'm interested to hear how psychsurvivor spins this....but I think I know. Homos, slaves, and a computer analogy.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,544]

GTG.

 

 

 

Wrong thread. I think you were trying to imply I was crazy.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

I didn't have that take away at all. I just today stumbled on this thread and my take away is that this Phsyc dude simply is passionate about this topic as he has first hand personal experience. He brought a LOT to the table, backed up a LOT of his stances and changed the minds of some over the evolution of the thread if you read from start to finish like I did since I just now came across it.

[NewbieJr 541]

Actually, I thought he did bring a lot, early on. Then he just became a typical dooshtard. I was enjoying the banter between him and penultimate. Two guys that certainly know a little about the topic at hand. But then it became apparent that psychosurvivor wasn't dealing from a full deck. He's put WAY too much time into the research. Knows every YouTube video that agrees with him. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until he started to sound like he still very well may be in a straight jacket.

[FeelingMN 273]

I didn't have that take away at all. I just today stumbled on this thread and my take away is that this Phsyc dude simply is passionate about this topic as he has first hand personal experience. He brought a LOT to the table, backed up a LOT of his stances and changed the minds of some over the evolution of the thread if you read from start to finish like I did since I just now came across it.

 

Sure he might be passionate, and maybe OCD or whatnot. But who cares? You know what they call kids with a little OCD? Future Engineers. Mental health is so misunderstood in this country and its so demonized and looked down upon. I rather enjoyed the thread and didn't think this dude was crazy at all. Passionate? Sure. Crazy? Nope. If he is crazy.....then a crazy guy just pimp slapped like a half a dozen Geeks at once.

 

Passionate? To a point, yeah. Crazy? When you start talking about how you're in the smartest 1-2% of the population....and you show absolutely no empathy for another person (Old Maid)....a case could be made.

 

A little OCD....a little depression....a little mental illness and you can function pretty well on a daily basis. And most people do. People who suffer major mental illness episodes can still function pretty well if they get the help they need. But psychsurvivor doesn't believe any of that. He thinks there is no such thing as mental illness, at least as defined by psychiatry. Psychiatry is simply an intrusion into American's civil liberties. Let them be he says....and if they do something wrong, let them be jailed. It's backwards thinking.

[FeelingMN 273]

Wrong thread. I think you were trying to imply I was crazy.

I was joking. I don't think yer crazy. Think yer pretty smart and creative actually.

[drobeski 3,061]

So, back to Justine have you guys diagnosed her crazy? Her parents? The Connecticut drs ?

We know the state and certainly BCH can do no wrong so someone has to be a loon out of them.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,544]

I was joking. I don't think yer crazy. Think yer pretty smart and creative actually.

 

 

Good. Cause I know where you eat breakfast sometimes.

[OldMaid 2,134]

Passionate? To a point, yeah. Crazy? When you start talking about how you're in the smartest 1-2% of the population....and you show absolutely no empathy for another person (Old Maid)....a case could be made.

A little OCD....a little depression....a little mental illness and you can function pretty well on a daily basis. And most people do. People who suffer major mental illness episodes can still function pretty well if they get the help they need. But psychsurvivor doesn't believe any of that. He thinks there is no such thing as mental illness, at least as defined by psychiatry. Psychiatry is simply an intrusion into American's civil liberties. Let them be he says....and if they do something wrong, let them be jailed. It's backwards thinking.

KSB is just trying to stir the pot. It's become his shtick, lately.

[NewbieJr 541]

KSB is just trying to stir the pot. It's become his shtick, lately.

life has gotten boring since chess club ended in 12th grade

[KSB2424 3,171]

Passionate? To a point, yeah. Crazy? When you start talking about how you're in the smartest 1-2% of the population....and you show absolutely no empathy for another person (Old Maid)....a case could be made.

 

A little OCD....a little depression....a little mental illness and you can function pretty well on a daily basis. And most people do. People who suffer major mental illness episodes can still function pretty well if they get the help they need. But psychsurvivor doesn't believe any of that. He thinks there is no such thing as mental illness, at least as defined by psychiatry. Psychiatry is simply an intrusion into American's civil liberties. Let them be he says....and if they do something wrong, let them be jailed. It's backwards thinking.

 

I'm more inclined with your line of thinking on the overall topic, but you were much more open minded about the case in question (the OP) than others who automatically made assumptions.

 

The pshc dude is on one end of the spectrum it seems but an end that rarely gets mentioned or shined upon. He had good thoughts, rambled a bit, but it was at the very least thought provoking.

 

I don't agree with all he said, but it made me think about it.

[FeelingMN 273]

Good. Cause I know where you eat breakfast sometimes.

Your mom's muffin is delicious....even the crumbs. Yum!

[Sho Nuff 720]

So, back to Justine have you guys diagnosed her crazy? Her parents? The Connecticut drs ?

We know the state and certainly BCH can do no wrong so someone has to be a loon out of them.

 

Who has stated that the BCH and state can do no wrong?

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

I'm more inclined with your line of thinking on the overall topic, but you were much more open minded about the case in question (the OP) than others who automatically made assumptions.

 

The pshc dude is on one end of the spectrum it seems but an end that rarely gets mentioned or shined upon. He had good thoughts, rambled a bit, but it was at the very least thought provoking.

 

I don't agree with all he said, but it made me think about it.

 

I think many went in open minded about the subject and the new guy.

He seemed to be the most close minded person in the entire topic.

[FeelingMN 273]

I'm more inclined with your line of thinking on the overall topic, but you were much more open minded about the case in question (thi OP) than others who automatically made assumptions.

 

The pshc dude is on one end of the spectrum it seems but an end that rarely gets mentioned or shined upon. He had good thoughts, rambled a bit, but it was at the very least thought provoking.

 

I don't agree with all he said, but it made me think about it.

I think it has been a good discussion....for the most part. And he does bring up some issues with psychiatry. I just think changes should be instituted rather than abandoning the entire field altogether. It's not ALL bad....not ALL psychiatrists are evil.

 

As for the OP.....it's just a messed up situation. I wanna hear more facts before condemning anyone....still don't understand how the parents haven't been charged with abuse if that's the reason their custody was revoked. If they're not gonna be charged with abuse then she should be allowed to return home.

 

I'm open to the possibility that the hospital/state abused their authority too....and if they did, they should pay.

[Sho Nuff 720]

As for the OP.....it's just a messed up situation. I wanna hear more facts before condemning anyone....still don't understand how the parents haven't been charged with abuse if that's the reason their custody was revoked. If they're not gonna be charged with abuse then she should be allowed to return home.

 

I'm open to the possibility that the hospital/state abused their authority too....and if they did, they should pay.

 

Ive seen plenty of DCS casefiles here in TN where there was some form of abuse or neglect where there were no charges.

 

I agree with your last line...its possible they abused their power and should pay the piper if that is the case.

[drobeski 3,061]

http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog.com/2014/02/massachusetts_dcf_and_the_dest.html

 

 

 

On: February 27, 2014

MASSACHUSETTS DCF AND THE DESTRUCTION OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES

 

 

 

inShare

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Yesterday, we began discussing the saga of the Pelletiers and the horror show we call the Department of Children and Families (DCF). In short, the medical treatment and fate of their 15-year-old daughter (the Child) is at issue. The Child has been taken away from her parents (the Family) because there was a disagreement as to what disease the Child has. The Family has faith in an expert physician in the field who had been treating the Child for some time.

 

Unfortunately, Boston Childrens Hospital (BCH) staff disagreed with said expert as well as the hospital which HAD been treating the Child, Tufts Medical Center. Because the Family wished to follow the advice of the original doctor, BCH decided to cut off the expert and the Family from the Child. They brought in their good friend DCF to make sure that the Familys wishes and beliefs could be disposed of like the left-over trash in the hospital cafeteria.

 

Over the past year, the Child has remained under DCF control and, last week, the Boston Juvenile Court ordered that not only could DCF and BCH continue its destruction, but that the Child would now be moved to foster care since, as described above, the Family could not be trusted.

 

Despite the fact that its chosen treatment course seems to be failing because the Childs health is declining, DCF apparently remains at the helm of the sinking medical ship.

 

It may interest you to know that the Family and the Child actually live(d) in Connecticut. Any Probate Court judge who handle issues of custody between parents every day, can tell you what it takes to remove a child who lives in one state and transfer custody so that the child will live in another state. In short, a great evidentiary showing is necessary.

 

Apparently that only applies to parents and families. As one can see, when DCF desires the movewell, it does not seem to take very much.

 

Given the great deference that the court shows DCF, I started to doubt myself and all my experience in these matters and tried to see it from the other side. After all, it cant be that our society believes that what DCF is supposed to do is unimportant, right? I meanthese are our children! What can be more important than that, right?

 

So, lets ignore this unfortunate tale of what appears to be court-sponsored child abuse. Instead, lets check other news. Maybe we will get a better view and maybe even some hope for the agency and its victims...I mean clients.

 

Hmmm

 

Well, here is a story from earlier this week. It seems to deal with one of those experts in whom DCF places its faith. He is Kenneth Edwards, of Dorchester. Mr. Edwards is a DCF-approved therapistalthough he is unlicensed as a therapist, social worker or psychologist.

 

Well, thats just a technicality, I am sure. Lets look at the man himself...aside from what qualifications he may or may not have.

 

Uh-oh.

 

He seems to have had a few criminal justice-type problems. His rap sheet includes motor vehicle and firearms charges. More recently, he has been serving time for kicking his pregnant wife. This week, he faced sentencing for another felonysexually assaulting a 13-year-old boy.

 

Apparently, DCF trusted Mr. Edwards so much that it actually placed the child with him. When the abuse was occurring, the child is said to have repeatedly appealed for help from DCF to help him.

 

According to sources, those appeals were denied. After all, as DCF is said to have explained to the boy, no one would believe his story due to the boys history of behavior problems, prosecutors said in Superior Court filings.

 

Mr. Edwards was sentenced to 10 years for his most recent case. There is no word as to whether he will be continuing his non-certified counseling for DCF when he get out of custody.

 

Ohlook! Remember the case of 5-year-old Jeremiah Oliver of Fitchburg? He is the child who was placed in a trusted foster home by DCF and then, apparently, forgotten about. He went missing months before DCF, who was supposed to check on him monthly, even found out he was missing. Now, many months later, he is still missing and presumed dead.

 

Remember there had been all this press coverage about the situation and DCF boss Olga Roche was made to answer tough questions? As I recall, she went with the lone rogue bad apple explanation that only a few caseworkers were at fault and that, other than that, DCF was doing a dandy job.

 

In fact, she gave testimony last month that all 36,000 Bay State kids under DCFs care were safe and sound. The testimony was to lawmakers at a January 23rd hearing.

 

Well, it turns out that 10 days prior to that hearing a contractor for DCF filed a missing persons report for another missing teen. That teen was missing during the hearing. Ironically, because of the media coverage today when it came to light, which one would imagine upset DCF, the child was found today. Amazing that a little press can do what the experts (DCF) cannot.

 

Well, maybe the questions to the DCF boss was kind of vague and so it was they were misunderstood, right? I mean, she would not lie under oath would she?

 

Not so vague, really.

 

State Representative David Linsky, chairman of the House Committee on Post Audit and Oversight, asked Ms. Roche, Can you give me and the other 6 million people of the Commonwealth the assurance that you know that every single one of those 36,000 children in your care today are present, alive and healthy? Can you give me that assurance that theres no other Jeremiah Oliver out there today?

 

The answer was Yes.

 

You are 100 percent confident? the Natick Democrat pressed.

 

Yes, sir, Roche replied.

 

Maybe she was not lying. Perhaps she was simply out of touch. In that case, I wonder what else she does not know.

 

Well, anyway, that is DCF in the news this week, so far. Not so uplifting after all.

 

This is the agency which gets to decide which kids to rip away from their families, for whatever reason, and throw them into the clutches of the apparent unknown.

 

Ive got to wonder what it will take for Massachusetts citizens to wake up to the abuses of the DCF nightmare and force the necessary fundamental change.

 

Attorney Sams Take On Another View Of A Near-Hopeless Situation

 

Sam, what do you mean about forcing the necessary fundamental change

One of the primary reasons for these Attorney Sam posts is to get the news out as to the realities of our criminal justice and DCF systems and the risk in which they currently place each and every one of us.

 

Once people understand...and hopefully care...maybe we can force change through the exercising of the Constitutional rights which appear to be of little interest to those in power.

 

A small example of how bad the situation is?

 

How about the 15-year-old Child who will now be wasting away in a foster home, her health declining and separated from the Family on the basis that DCF, not the Family, gets to choose which medical advice to follow? Yes, the very same DCF all these other stories, and more, are about.

 

On the other hand, perhaps this is all just a misunderstanding. Maybe my shock and anger with DCF is based upon what I think its title signifies. The agency, a few years back, was called the Department of Social Services. During the debacles of that time, DCF changed its name to the Department of Children and Familiesperhaps thinking the name change would solve the problems.

 

It didnt. But I digress.

 

Given the realities of DCF, it may well be that the goals of the agency are simply misunderstood. I am assuming that being known as the Department of Children and Families means that the agency means to help children and families. Given what we are seeing on a daily basis, perhaps it is really devoted to fighting and destroying children and families.

 

If that is the case, I guess I cannot call DCF incompetent anymore and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

To read the original stories upon this blog is based, please go http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2014/02/24/parents-justina-pelletier-upset-after-learning-teenager-will-now-sent-dcf-foster-care-advocates-say/r6TKrvmVGf2lxmHgQKZC6O/story.html, http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/02/dcf_teen_missing_when_olga_roche_claims_kids_safe ,

[psychsurvivor 2]

Is there a big push to classify mental illness as a disease or something? As if being a disorder makes it less real? Whatever....Insel is working at improving the labels without killing psychiatry altogether. I'd think you'd be more supportive.

And actually, it should be up to me and mine to determine what is too much of a burden. If I'm bipolar and can't hold down a job, and my behavior places too much of a burden on the rest of my family, then there should be an option for me besides incarceration or homelessness. That's what psychiatry offers.

Your hero Dr. Frances doesn't believe we should be treating mental illness via the criminal justice system:

http://brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2013/dangers-of-diagnostic-inflation-bsp-102

They must have ingrained such barbarianism as part of your rigorous scientific training.

Two points,

 

- I am all in favor of VOLUNTARY pseudoscience, be it psychiatry, astrology or homeopathy. As I said, I am a civil libertarian first, everything else second. How people decide to spend their money and time is not my business. I think that I have mentioned several times that I will stop all my anti psychiatry activism the day the APA adopts a resolution asking for the abolition of ALL (not "some" but ALL) coercive psychiatry statutes in the nation both at the federal level and the state level. And I am not only talking about the involuntary commitment/forced drugging statutes but things like forensic psychiatry or the so called "insanity defenses". This will not happen anytime soon because the APA is well aware that it derives its influence from coercive psychiatry. For terrorist to terrorize, they only need a few selective attacks so people get the message. Take the Justina Pelletier situation. What do you think will happen if the parents are unable to get the custody decision overridden by a higher court? BCH psychs would have sent a very powerful message to parents taking their kids to BCH: do as we wish or else...

 

- Allen Frances is NOT my hero. When it comes to the field of psychiatry, my only hero is Thomas Szasz. I disagree with 80% of what Allen Frances says or stands for. It's only that the 20% I agree with attacks psychiatry to its core, including his admission that "mental illness is bullshit". His words, not mine. This is part of the strategy of "dividing the elites", putting the chairman of the DSM-IV against the current APA leadership. It is very fun to watch.

[psychsurvivor 2]

I'm more inclined with your line of thinking on the overall topic, but you were much more open minded about the case in question (the OP) than others who automatically made assumptions.

 

The pshc dude is on one end of the spectrum it seems but an end that rarely gets mentioned or shined upon. He had good thoughts, rambled a bit, but it was at the very least thought provoking.

 

I don't agree with all he said, but it made me think about it.

Thank you for you kind words. I do not expect people to agree with me on everything of course .

 

I hope that people have been given food for thought about the issues I have raised. Things like the "chemical imbalance urban legend" or the "anosognosia lie" are still used to this day by the promoters of civil rights abuses in the name of so called "mental health". If people believe that MD degree holders must have a parallel system of social control and the right to enforce it on innocent victims so be it, but it is outrageous that these quacks use the name of science in vain .

[penultimatestraw 473]

Try eating a few salads.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Is there a big push to classify mental illness as a disease or something? As if being a disorder makes it less real? Whatever....Insel is working at improving the labels without killing psychiatry altogether. I'd think you'd be more supportive.

 

And actually, it should be up to me and mine to determine what is too much of a burden. If I'm bipolar and can't hold down a job, and my behavior places too much of a burden on the rest of my family, then there should be an option for me besides incarceration or homelessness. That's what psychiatry offers.

 

Your hero Dr. Frances doesn't believe we should be treating mental illness via the criminal justice system:

 

 

http://brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2013/dangers-of-diagnostic-inflation-bsp-102

 

They must have ingrained such barbarianism as part of your rigorous scientific training.

Yep. Also some suffering from psychiatric disease ( ) lose their support system and decision-making capacity, so they may need involuntary commitment. Or they are abused by those closest to them.

 

But the antipsych movement is convinced everyone is being victimized by power/money-hungry psychiatrists and drug companies.

[psychsurvivor 2]

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/being-mentally-ill-and-imprisoned-talk-about-cruel-and-inhumane-20131208

Lengthy article here, but a very good read. Shows why we need treatment centers and really exposes the futility of psychsurvivor's thinking.

No matter how many times the lie that increased incarceration rates are do to de-institutionalization, the lie remains a a lie (emphasis mine),

 

http://www.samefacts.com/2009/02/everything-else/out-of-the-asylum-into-the-prison/

 

Certainly, the jails have borne some of the brunt of de-institutionalization; the Los Angeles County jail has been described as the largest mental hospital in the nation. But Raphael and Stoll compute that fewer than 130,000 of the nation’s 2.3 million prison and jail inmates are the products of de-institutionalization; that’s about 10% of the growth in the system.

 

Yes, it’s important to provide better mental-health services to criminal-justice clients, and doing so will tend to reduce prison and jail headcounts. But de-institutionalization is not among the major sources of mass incarceration. That policy had costs, some of them due to the failure to replace asylum care with good community-based care. Those costs fell on the criminal justice system, on the neighborhoods disturbed by disturbing behavior, and on those released, many of whom wound up on the streets or in homeless shelters.

 

But surely the civil libertarians got the bigger question right: locking people up for acting crazy is a pretty rotten thing to do, and I’m glad we mostly don’t do it anymore. There’s a revisionist tendency to add de-institutionalization to high-rise public housing on the liberal-good-intentions-gone-awry list. It should be resisted. And the notion that the current level of incarceration is somehow historically normal needs to have stake driven through its heart.

 

It is the very reason we oppose preemptive censorship even though an active policy of censorship could avoid people from going to jail for say "harassment".

 

Since mental illness is "bullshit", to use Allen Frances' own description, anybody who believes in civil liberties would agree that we need to side with freedom, not with those who are for increasing powers to abuse civil liberties in the name of a pseudoscience. In fact, no other than promoter of psychiatric abuse E Fuller Torrey had this to say in 1974 when he seemed more worried about the issue of freedom than about drugging as many people as possible,

 

It is better that we err on the side of labeling too few, rather than too many, as brain diseased. In other words, a person should be presumed not to have a brain disease until proven otherwise on the basis of probability. This is exactly the opposite of what we do now as we blithely label everyone who behaves a little oddly “schizophrenic.” Human dignity rather demands that people be assumed to be in control of their behavior and not brain diseased unless there is strong evidence to the contrary.

 

Exactly my point which is why I say that there is no room for psychiatry whatsoever. For genuine brain diseases, like CJD or Alzheimer's, we already have neurologists. The idea of a parallel system of social control by quacks, even if these quacks have MD degrees, is repulsive and contrary to the ideal of freedom we cherish so much in America.

 

You have to understand this. I was a victim of a regime like the pre-1975 that existed in the US. In most of Europe "need for treatment" is still a valid ground to lock up people against their will. My American citizenship and our higher respect for individual freedom is what allows me to live without worries that I could ever be committed again. My commitment would not have happened under our standards. I prefer jail, homelessness and death to another so called "involuntary commitment" experience. Among the tens (or hundreds) of survivors that I have met, I have only met 1 person who is in retrospect thankful to have been involuntarily committed. However, civil liberties are not subject to "minority" or "majority" opinion. Unless our constitution changes by way of the amendment process, no state can pass a law (even if said law has 99% of the vote) that would permit said state to censor speech for purely political reasons. So the experience of that survivor is 100% irrelevant to my own desire to NOT receive any kind of psychiatric "help", voluntarily or involuntarily EVER.

[penultimatestraw 473]

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/07/18/imprisoning-people-with-mental-illness/

 

Another good article.

 

I'm interested to hear how psychsurvivor spins this....but I think I know. Homos, slaves, and a computer analogy.

But it's not a disease! Never mind that Justina's "mitochondrial disorder" hasn't been confirmed pathologically either. Or there are no therapies with well-designed trials supporting their use. A cocktail of vitamins and antioxidants is recommended, which was never stopped as far as I can tell.

[penultimatestraw 473]

KSB is just trying to stir the pot. It's become his shtick, lately.

I don't know. Isn't he the guy who believes Tebow is God's gift to the NFL? Apparently he is big into giving nuts the benefit of the doubt.

[psychsurvivor 2]

But it's not a disease! Never mind that Justina's "mitochondrial disorder" hasn't been confirmed pathologically either. Or there are no therapies with well-designed trials supporting their use. A cocktail of vitamins and antioxidants is recommended, which was never stopped as far as I can tell.

Don't be silly. Already debunked, here http://www.samefacts.com/2009/02/everything-else/out-of-the-asylum-into-the-prison/ !

[OldMaid 2,134]

I don't know. Isn't he the guy who believes Tebow is God's gift to the NFL? Apparently he is big into giving nuts the benefit of the doubt.

Your sense of humor is improving, Doc.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

I'm more inclined with your line of thinking on the overall topic, but you were much more open minded about the case in question (the OP) than others who automatically made assumptions.

 

The pshc dude is on one end of the spectrum it seems but an end that rarely gets mentioned or shined upon. He had good thoughts, rambled a bit, but it was at the very least thought provoking.

 

I don't agree with all he said, but it made me think about it.

Everybody is making assumptions, as we don't have all the details. You have to figure for yourself which is the most plausible explanation, or wait for the authorities to do so. So far, it seems like those who know a lot more details than you or I believe the side which removed Justina from her parents custody. I've already stated disciplinary action should be pursued if they are wrong.

[psychsurvivor 2]

Everybody is making assumptions, as we don't have all the details. You have to figure for yourself which is the most plausible explanation, or wait for the authorities to do so. So far, it seems like those who know a lot more details than you or I believe the side which removed Justina from her parents custody. I've already stated disciplinary action should be pursued if they are wrong.

http://pagesix.com/2014/04/14/keith-ablow-meets-with-parents-in-justina-pelletier-case/

 

Famed psychiatrist Keith Ablow was just in Newburyport, MA, to meet the family of Justina Pelletier, a 15-year-old girl with symptoms — whether they are psychosomatic or physiological is disputed — that make it difficult for her to walk and eat.

 

Ablow had dinner at the restaurant Ten Center Street with the girl’s parents, Lou and Linda Pelletier, who have been fighting the state of Massachusetts for more than a year for the release of their daughter from Boston Children’s Hospital.

 

The doctor has taken the position publicly that the state has violated their parental rights, but this was the first time they had ever met.

 

Given Ablow’s history of teaming up with top Boston attorneys in big cases, look for him to join the fray in a big way.

 

Asked what about the dinner conversation, Ablow told me, “It was about a family being shattered by the state trampling upon their rights and the rights of their daughter.”

 

We hear the calamari at Ten Center Street is good, too.

 

Maybe Keith Ablow is also an anti psychiatry "nut job". Or maybe he is a psychiatrist who teaches at and works for Tufts Medical Center .

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

I think many went in open minded about the subject and the new guy.

He seemed to be the most close minded person in the entire topic.

I think many went in horrified that a child was taken from their parents. It's an emotional response that is understandable. That's the angle of Foxnews and many of the Boston media's reports.

[psychsurvivor 2]

I think many went in horrified that a child was taken from their parents. It's an emotional response that is understandable. That's the angle of Foxnews and many of the Boston media's reports.

 

And then there is the "pro BCH" people like you who dogmatically believe that BCH psychs can do no wrong and therefore there "must be something wrong with Justina's parents" .

[penultimatestraw 473]

Your sense of humor is improving, Doc.

It's the meds.

[psychsurvivor 2]

It's the meds.

Meds like these ? ,

 

http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/356191

 

"We found a nonsignificant difference between second-generation antidepressants and placebo in terms of self-reported depressive symptoms (k = 6 trials, g = 0.06, p = 0.36). Further, pooled across measures of quality of life, global mental health, self-esteem, and autonomy, antidepressants yielded no significant advantage over placebo (k = 3 trials, g = 0.11, p = 0.13). Discussion: Though limited by a small number of trials, our analyses suggest that antidepressants offer little to no benefit in improving overall well-being among depressed children and adolescents"

[Sho Nuff 720]

And then there is the "pro BCH" people like you who dogmatically believe that BCH psychs can do no wrong and therefore there "must be something wrong with Justina's parents" .

 

Interesting you go with this same like that drobeski tried.

Where has anyone claimed that BCH people can do no wrong?

[psychsurvivor 2]

Interesting you go with this same like that drobeski tried.

Where has anyone claimed that BCH people can do no wrong?

Mr pen, MD has repeatedly said that BCH doctors would not have taken the unprecedented step of thing custody unless "they saw something". Many times in this thread, to which I ask, what is that the BCH doctors saw that nobody else is seeing including Mark Korson or Keith Ablow?

 

I get it, pen, MD, has telepathic powers and he is able to read the BCH quacks minds in ways nobody else can .

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

Interesting you go with this same like that drobeski tried.

Where has anyone claimed that BCH people can do no wrong?

Nobody. Pretty much everyone who has suggested there is more to this story than meets the sensational headlines has acknowledged the possibility that BCH docs, etc. may be in the wrong. On the flipside, for those that are convinced of an abuse of power, I've seen no posts which allow for the possibility that the psycho-pharma-government conspiracy is incorrect.