phillybear arrested at last

[IGotWorms 4,060]

WASHINGTON In what could prove to be the last Nazi case on American soil, federal officials on Tuesday arrested an 89-year-old immigrant in Philadelphia who is accused of having been a Nazi SS guard at Auschwitz and Buchenwald during World War II.

 

Johann Breyer, a retired tool maker born in Czechoslovakia, is the oldest person ever accused of ties to the Third Reich by United States authorities who for decades have hunted for Nazis who escaped to America after the war. Mr. Breyer is accused of joining the Waffen SS at age 17 and working as a guard at the concentration camps at Auschwitz and Buchenwald.

 

Mr. Breyer is accused of working as an armed guard at Auschwitz and taking part in the murders of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Germany in 1944. Officials said he had worked at the part of the camp known as Auschwitz 2, or Birkenau, a section that was particularly notorious. While the Nazis used other parts of Auschwitz for slave labor, the Birkenau section was used exclusively to kill victims in gas chambers.

 

Mr. Breyer, who immigrated to the United States in 1952, was arrested at his home in Philadelphia, and on Wednesday he was in Federal District Court there to face charges. Germany is seeking to have him extradited to stand trial under a sealed German indictment made public on Wednesday. Germany is charging him with 158 counts of aiding and abetting Nazi atrocities.

 

...

 

His arrest revives a case that has been dormant for years. The Justice Department first accused Mr. Breyer of Nazi ties and tried to deport him in 1992, but he was ultimately allowed to stay in the country after a legal fight that hinged on his claims that he was born a United States citizen. (His mother was born in the United States.)

 

While he acknowledged being at Auschwitz for a time, he insisted his service there was involuntary.

 

[jerryskids 6,926]

Man, 89... I know it is a serious accusation, but something seems wrong with putting a guy that old on trial for stuff he did as a teen.

[Mungwater 597]

Man, 89... I know it is a serious accusation, but something seems wrong with putting a guy that old on trial for stuff he did as a teen.

I know following orders isn't a defense, at least in the American military, but this seems wrong to try a guy for something that happened 70 years ago.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,511]

Phillybear is a Nazi? I was not aware of that.

[Googballz 39]

Worms has anger issues.

[Saint Elistan 106]

Yeah, feel sorry for this guy...

 

...up until the point you realize that, if proven guilty, he got to live his entire life in peace as an American citizen despite being accessory to the murder of 344,000 people.

[paulinstl 296]

Are you people serious with feeling sympathy for this guy?

 

[naomi 356]

Johann Breyer Probe More information in this article from two years ago.

 

Informative comment strand re: what it took to be an SS officer vs. Hitler Youth.

 

If you can make a case he directly murdered people, time doesn't matter...it's not like this is literally a different person now, just an aged body.

 

That slideshow at the bottom of the first link's article...those old guys look seriously mean. Most were acquitted due to insufficient evidence.

[Mungwater 597]

Are you people serious with feeling sympathy for this guy?

 

Absolutely not, he has been involved in the murder of a shitload of people.

 

Have to think he's probably sick of waiting for the knock on his door

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

I tend to forgive people and I like to think the point of the judicial system is to prevent future crimes.

 

I do not think he was going to commit any more crimes. I do not think he should be tried for a crime he committed so long ago.

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

Johann Breyer Probe More information in this article from two years ago.

 

Informative comment strand re: what it took to be an SS officer vs. Hitler Youth.

 

If you can make a case he directly murdered people, time doesn't matter...it's not like this is literally a different person now, just an aged body.

 

That slideshow at the bottom of the first link's article...those old guys look seriously mean. Most were acquitted due to insufficient evidence.

 

Aren't you a christian, what are Jesus's teaching when it comes to forgiveness?

[naomi 356]

Justice and personal forgiveness are two different things.

 

>I tend to forgive people

 

As noble and altruistic as this might sound to you, it also sounds very egotistical. Congratulations. I tend to see the families of victims in the forgiveness seat...not me. My conceptual forgiveness (because I'm so arbitrary here I don't think it's even possible for me to 'forgive' this guy - if the charges are true) of another's atrocity doesn't mean anything, to them, the victims, or their loved ones.

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

Justice and personal forgiveness are two different things.

 

>I tend to forgive people

 

As noble and altruistic as this might sound to you, it also sounds very egotistical. I tend to see the families of victims in the forgiveness seat...not me. My conceptual forgiveness (because I'm so arbitrary here I don't think it's even possible for me to 'forgive' this guy - if the charges are true, in a concrete way) of another's atrocity doesn't mean anything, to them, the victims, or their loved ones.

 

But you think he should be punished, so obviously you have not forgiven him.

[naomi 356]

But you think he should be punished, so obviously you have not forgiven him.

 

If he's guilty as charged beyond a reasonable doubt, yes. Whether that is just or not is not contingent on my forgiving him.

 

If I've forgiven him, does it become less just that he's held accountable for his crimes?

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

 

If he's guilty as charged beyond a reasonable doubt, yes. Whether that is just or not is not contingent on my forgiving him.

 

If I've forgiven him, does it become less just that he's held accountable for his crimes?

 

Why do you want to see him punished?

 

It won't prevent any future crime all. You want someone to suffer because of their past action even though their suffering will not prevent anything bad from happening in the future?

[jerryskids 6,926]

Are you people serious with feeling sympathy for this guy?

 

In theory I like that there is no statute of limitations and that these folks live their entire lives knowing they could get that knock on the door. Still, 89 and facing decisions made as a teen...

[FeelingMN 273]

Why do you want to see him punished?

It won't prevent any future crime all. You want someone to suffer because of their past action even though their suffering will not prevent anything bad from happening in the future?

So you are against someone serving a life sentence?

 

At what age can we let Charlie Manson roam free?

[naomi 356]

Why do you want to see him punished?

 

It won't prevent any future crime all. You want someone to suffer because of their past action even though their suffering will not prevent anything bad from happening in the future?

 

The more continuity of upholding justice (which includes honoring the rights of the accused) in a society, the more reservation to commit injustice should be had. It's a principle that should run deep.

 

I questioned using the word continuity vs. consistency, but the definition gets at the heart of why it matters.

 

"The unbroken and consistent existence or operation of something over a period of time."

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

So you are against someone serving a life sentence?

 

At what age can we let Charlie Manson roam free?

 

Not at all. He has a high risk of murdering again if left out.

 

I think jails should hold people who are at risk for committing crimes.

[Saint Elistan 106]

Not at all. He has a high risk of murdering again if left out.

 

I think jails should hold people who are at risk for committing crimes.

 

You dug yourself into a hole on this one.

 

Jails are a punitive system, not a preventative system. It's a punishment for crimes committed, not a deterrent for crimes not yet committed.

 

This isn't focking Minority Report.

[FeelingMN 273]

Not at all. He has a high risk of murdering again if left out.

I think jails should hold people who are at risk for committing crimes.

Apparently you can see into the future better than most.

 

Personally, I'm all in favor of a system that is dogged in its pursuit of justice. If this guy was 29....nobody has a problem with locking him up. 59? 72? At what point do we say as a society....you've committed a crime but have proven to no longer be a threat so we'll forget that you played a part in killing thousands of people. Screw that.

 

Commit a crime, do your time.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

It's an interesting conundrum. But there is no statute of limitations on murder and this fella might have murdered hundreds or more. So I'm ok with him getting tried even though it does seem sorta sad and pointless to go after someone who is 89.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

You dug yourself into a hole on this one.

 

Jails are a punitive system, not a preventative system. It's a punishment for crimes committed, not a deterrent for crimes not yet committed.

 

This isn't focking Minority Report.

That's not entirely true. Retribution is one reason we punish, yes. But there's also rehabilitation and general and specific deterrence.

 

Retribution is the main reason to punish this guy but there is an element of general deterrence, albeit weak. If would-be genocidal freaks see that they can be punished for their crimes even SEVEN DECADES after the fact, maybe that will factor into their thinking. But like I said, it's pretty weak.

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

 

You dug yourself into a hole on this one.

 

Jails are a punitive system, not a preventative system. It's a punishment for crimes committed, not a deterrent for crimes not yet committed.

 

This isn't focking Minority Report.

 

 

I realize that you are correct and that jails in America are a punitive system, it is why we have the highest incarceration rate in world. All this does is increase the cost to the government without making us as a people safer.

 

It is my belief that the judicial system should change to be more of a preventative system.

[Googballz 39]

Seems to me it is up to Germany since that is where he is charged with crimes. Discussing the American legal/prison system is unrelated to this issue.

[MTSkiBum 1,625]

Apparently you can see into the future better than most.

 

Personally, I'm all in favor of a system that is dogged in its pursuit of justice. If this guy was 29....nobody has a problem with locking him up. 59? 72? At what point do we say as a society....you've committed a crime but have proven to no longer be a threat so we'll forget that you played a part in killing thousands of people. Screw that.

 

Commit a crime, do your time.

 

Your opinion is that of the majority of Americans. We lock more people up than any other country.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Prisoners/Per-capita

 

 

I do not believe this makes america any safer, our crime rates per capita are not any lower than other first world countries.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

Seems to me it is up to Germany since that is where he is charged with crimes. Discussing the American legal/prison system is unrelated to this issue.

MTSkiBum can turn it into a discussion on philosophies of punishment if he wants to. So fvck off, troll

[Googballz 39]

MTSkiBum can turn it into a discussion on philosophies of punishment if he wants to. So fvck off, troll

 

Yes, he can. Doesn't change the fact it is unrelated to this issue, Dumbfukk.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

 

I realize that you are correct and that jails in America are a punitive system, it is why we have the highest incarceration rate in world. All this does is increase the cost to the government without making us as a people safer.

 

It is my belief that the judicial system should change to be more of a preventative system.

I tend to agree with you, but just playing devils advocate here: is it possible that we'd have even more crime if our incarceration rate weren't so high? Put another way, could there be something about this country that makes us more likely to have higher rates of crime than, say, a Western European nation?

[Googballz 39]

Put another way, could there be something about this country that makes us more likely to have higher rates of crime than, say, a Western European nation?

High number of people who eat Skittles and drink Mountain Dew?

[naomi 356]

It's an interesting conundrum. But there is no statute of limitations on murder and this fella might have murdered hundreds or more. So I'm ok with him getting tried even though it does seem sorta sad and pointless to go after someone who is 89.

 

It's not.

 

If this was a man who was suspected of murdering abortion doctors, if this was a man who was suspected of lynching blacks, would time phase anyone as a factor?

 

It definitely doesn't do society ill to clearly on the whole stand for justice, because on the small parts it has. Failing in the small parts (like something removed by time) is failing in general, because we want to be saying that the value of human life is fixed.

 

Maybe someone's criminal persuasion has nothing to do with the same spirit of the crime chosen to let go unrecognized...but the more 'give' is granted to recognition of what merits justice, the more justified/palatable the injustice that resonates with them seems.

[GobbleDog 1,001]

I know following orders isn't a defense, at least in the American military, but this seems wrong to try a guy for something that happened 70 years ago.

 

Seems like a perfectly reasonable defense to me, at least for lower ranked German soldiers. The alternative was death... the Eastern Front.

 

Now they're punished 70 years later for not chosing death as a 17 y.o.? That's ridiculous.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Seems to me it is up to Germany since that is where he is charged with crimes. Discussing the American legal/prison system is unrelated to this issue.

Poland actually. But it is an interesting question... How do we have jurisdiction?

[naomi 356]

Wiki page on SS officer Selection

 

So you don't wind up as one of those officers unless you want to be.

 

It's thought that this guy was part of the 'Death Squads' or Einsatzgruppen.

 

Richard Rhodes in "Masters of Death" says the Einsatzgruppen were drawn from a variety of sources. Several thousand SS men were ordered to attend a three week course at a police academy in Pretsch in 1941 for "special assignment". Others came from Gestapo and criminal police, enlisted men from Waffen-SS and bureaucrats from Reich Security Main Office.

 

British historian Sir Ian Kershaw argues that Hitler's apocalyptic remarks before Barbarossa about the necessity for a war without mercy to "annihilate" the forces of "Judeo-Bolshevism" were interpreted by Einsatzgruppen commanders as permission and encouragement to engage in extreme antisemitic violence, with each Einsatzgruppen commander to use his own discretion about how far he was prepared to go.

[Googballz 39]

Poland actually. But it is an interesting question... How do we have jurisdiction?

Not according to the OP.

[Voltaire 5,363]

This is bullsh*t. This guy is a nobody.

 

Like him, I joined the Army when I was 17, let me tell you what the deal is.

 

I made zero decisions. I went where they assigned me and when I got there, I did what they told me. If I didn't do what they told me, or if I walked away, I'd get seriously punished for it. We're going to fock this dude over because that's where some Army commander assigned him and where he got off the truck? This guy has no responsibility for what happened there. He's a peon. It's his bosses who were the real criminals.

[JTB 52]

Seems to me it is up to Germany since that is where he is charged with crimes. Discussing the American legal/prison system is unrelated to this issue.

I'll catch he'll for saying this, in fact, I wish it wasn't you who mentioned this, but above is the correct answer.

[JTB 52]

This is bullsh*t. This guy is a nobody.

 

Like him, I joined the Army when I was 17, let me tell you what the deal is.

 

I made zero decisions. I went where they assigned me and when I got there, I did what they told me. If I didn't do what they told me, or if I walked away, I'd get seriously punished for it. We're going to fock this dude over because that's where some Army commander assigned him and where he got off the truck? This guy has no responsibility for what happened there. He's a peon. It's his bosses who were the real criminals.

Agree with this above too. Even if we can do sumfin........why?

[naomi 356]

This is bullsh*t. This guy is a nobody.

 

Like him, I joined the Army when I was 17, let me tell you what the deal is.

 

I made zero decisions. I went where they assigned me and when I got there, I did what they told me. If I didn't do what they told me, or if I walked away, I'd get seriously punished for it. We're going to fock this dude over because that's where some Army commander assigned him and where he got off the truck? This guy has no responsibility for what happened there. He's a peon. It's his bosses who were the real criminals.

 

The youngest age you could be allowed into the SS was 17. You had to apply, and they had to want to take you over the next Nazi Youth (which is usually where the younger officers were recruited from). You needed to satisfy them that the mission politically and philosophically resonated with you. If you look at the sophistication of how the genocide was carried out, that makes sense.

 

Quotes from the Organisation Book of the Nazi Party for 1943 stipulate how men can be accepted into Death Head Units where it's alleged this guy served.

[FeelingMN 273]

Your opinion is that of the majority of Americans. We lock more people up than any other country.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Prisoners/Per-capita

 

 

I do not believe this makes america any safer, our crime rates per capita are not any lower than other first world countries.

I think I've read that our drug laws contribute to our incarceration rate.

 

This is a whole different ball of wax.

 

The issue seems to be him being a good citizen for so long. At what point did he earn the right to have the law not applied to him? Seems like a slippery slope to me.