Black Jack

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

You can't mess up the shoe. You can't really believe who you are playing with affects your results.

 

while you can't mess up a shoe, the idiot sitting next to you who hits on 17 against a 6 can mess up the hand by taking the dealers bust card. Over the long haul of a shoe, it doesn't matter but we have all been at tables with people who don't even know half of basic strategy. people who split 20, etc.

 

everything in my post above yours regarding myself and tantastic was accurate. Im not big on baccarat but was always told the house edge was over 1% on player or banker bets and like 15% on tie (8 decks). So i could be wrong, my bad if so. Now to be fair, in your statement you said Baccarat was good as long as you dont bet the tie. I was listing games where the overall advantage is more toward the house. Tant seemed to think blackjack in general was the worst odds in a casino. Obviously not true. If you take the entirety of games like roulette, craps, baccarat, keno, etc... they are all worse. Yeah, you can only play certain bets where the house advantage is smaller but in almost all cases the house advantage on those bets is still slightly higher than the entire game of blackjack...

[frank 2,304]

 

while you can't mess up a shoe, the idiot sitting next to you who hits on 17 against a 6 can mess up the hand by taking the dealers bust card. Over the long haul of a shoe, it doesn't matter but we have all been at tables with people who don't even know half of basic strategy. people who split 20, etc.

 

They could also take a low card and make the dealer bust.

 

Or a player next to you with 11 could "take the dealer's bust card."

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

You can't mess up the shoe. You can't really believe who you are playing with affects your results.

Sure it can. If you bet under the knowledge that there are five "tens" left in the deck, and the crack and the junkie to your right hit seven times between them, now you're focked.

[frank 2,304]

Sure it can. If you bet under the knowledge that there are five "tens" left in the deck, and the crack ###### and the junkie to your right hit seven times between them, now you're focked.

Wow. Other players, whether they are doing the wrong thing or the right thing, can help you just as easily as they can hurt you on any hand. In the long run, it doesn't matter. In one hand, you don't know what they are going to draw, so you have no idea if you want them to hit or not. As for the dealer busting, a low card could be bad for the dealer on a given hand. Bottom line, anything can happen on one hand. The guy next to you could double down on 20 and "save" the whole table or he could correctly stand and that could result in the dealer getting 21.

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

They could also take a low card and make the dealer bust.

 

Or a player next to you with 11 could "take the dealer's bust card."

 

but scenario 1 would be an example of that player not following basic strategy, hitting on a 17 and taking a low card. Sure, i've see the exact thing you say happen 50 times, doesn't mean it was the right play. if you're not using basic strategy, the %'s swing greatly in the houses favor. Just because they might get a low card and actually save the hand doesn't make it the proper play. Over the long haul, the proper play is to stay and this is based on math and %'s.

 

in scenario 2, the player with the 11 is properly doubling down. Yes, they might take the dealers bust card but you can't fault someone for following the basic strat.

 

but you can fault someone for not staying on their hard 17 or 18 against a dealer 6

 

my point was that what each player does will directly impact THAT hand. but like you said, not the game in general. if they play like a moron on a hand it wont impact the rest of the shoe.

[frank 2,304]

Yes. I know hitting on 17 isn't proper strategy. My point is a player can do the wrong thing and it could help or hurt the rest of the table or a player could do the right thing and it could help or hurt the table. My original point is that there is no reason to be mad at someone for playing incorrectly because it could help you just as easily as it could hurt you.

 

People only remember the times the bad player hurts the table, not the times he helps. The funny thing is people seems to focus on the times someone incorrectly hits. You rarely hear about the times someone incorrectly stays. When someone incorrectly hits, people say "don't take the dealer's bust card." When a player incorrectly stays, people never say " take a card so you can get a low one out of the way so the dealer gets a bust card."

 

To make a very long story short, play basic strategy, count cards if you can, and don't care what anyone else does.

 

Eta: funny timing on this thread. Going on a casino trip next week so I have been refreshing/practicing.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

I used to care what the other people at the table did. That was waste of energy and made playing less enjoyable. My advice is to not say anything and just play your hand or go to another table.

[Giants Fan 85]

I usually leave if other people come to the table. Unless I am just playing for fun and then I will ask them, if there's a weird situation, "should I hit or stay?" And let them make the decision for me. Ya know, even when I was in Vegas for the WSOP, it was easy to find BJ tables with nobody sitting there and a dealer at the ready.

 

Fock, if you play high enough, you can have your own private table.

[nobody 2,667]

 

everything in my post above yours regarding myself and tantastic was accurate. Im not big on baccarat but was always told the house edge was over I was listing games where the overall advantage is more toward the house. Tant seemed to think blackjack in general was the worst odds in a casino. Obviously not true. If you take the entirety of games like roulette, craps, baccarat, keno, etc... they are all worse. Yeah, you can only play certain bets where the house advantage is smaller but in almost all cases the house advantage on those bets is still slightly higher than the entire game of blackjack...

In the context of "best odds" you usually only consider a game's best wagers. Blackjack could have 100% house advantage if the player just hits every hand until he busts. Similarly, craps, in general, is considered one of the better bets because you can bet the pass line with odds. Doesn't mean all those sucker bets are good.

 

At least we can all agree keno is terrible. I was with an ex girlfriend and her parents, and they were playing keno while we ate. I like numbers, so I started calculating the numbers in my head. I was thinking, "That can't be right. I definitely screwed that up," so next time I had a chance I sat down with a paper and pencil. Next time they tried the play, I basically jumped across the table screaming, "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

 

Had to break up with the chick after that trip. I can't be associated with a family that would play a game with 25% house advantage.

[Giants Fan 85]

WTG nobody!

 

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

Yes. I know hitting on 17 isn't proper strategy. My point is a player can do the wrong thing and it could help or hurt the rest of the table or a player could do the right thing and it could help or hurt the table. My original point is that there is no reason to be mad at someone for playing incorrectly because it could help you just as easily as it could hurt you.

 

People only remember the times the bad player hurts the table, not the times he helps. The funny thing is people seems to focus on the times someone incorrectly hits. You rarely hear about the times someone incorrectly stays. When someone incorrectly hits, people say "don't take the dealer's bust card." When a player incorrectly stays, people never say " take a card so you can get a low one out of the way so the dealer gets a bust card."

 

To make a very long story short, play basic strategy, count cards if you can, and don't care what anyone else does.

 

Eta: funny timing on this thread. Going on a casino trip next week so I have been refreshing/practicing.

 

im not the type of person who ever says anything to anyone at a table regarding what they did or didn't do. Sure, im thinking it but in the end its their money and if im counting and playing my own hand using basic strat, thats all that matters.

 

i silently curse to myself when the dealer has a 4 and the guy before me hits his 16, gets a 10 and busts while im sitting on 11 and could have used that card for my double down. on more than one occasion when something like that happens, its amazing how many times a small card comes out. does it really matter that they played incorrectly and took my 10? yes and no, imo.

 

I also hear plenty of people being vocal about those who incorrectly stay. Lot of "see you should have hit, you would have taken the dealers low card and the next card was a 10" so i disagree that people only complain when players incorrectly hit, i just think it happens more often than incorrectly staying. Naturally, people who just know a little bit about the game have been told to hit until you have 17 (sometimes 18) or higher so they end up doing so even against a dealer 4,5,6. just a guess but I think it happens more often thats why you hear about it more often.

 

also, if you are counting cards and other players are incorrectly hitting hands and taking 10's, aside from "taking the dealers bust card", if you're at a high count they could be needlessly lowering the count.

[frank 2,304]

Best bets (agreeing with nobody's statement about sticking to the best versions/bets)

 

video poker

blackjack

baccarat

craps

 

 

worst bets

roulette

slots

keno

 

 

I highly recommend wizardofodds.com. Tons of information about how to play games, odds, and basic strategy.

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

Best bets (agreeing with nobody's statement about sticking to the best versions/bets)

 

video poker

blackjack

baccarat

craps

 

 

worst bets

roulette

slots

keno

 

 

I highly recommend wizardofodds.com. Tons of information about how to play games, odds, and basic strategy.

A good site

[edjr 6,580]

best bets are hold 'em poker (the house doesn't care who wins)

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

best bets are hold 'em poker (the house doesn't care who wins)

Odds are in your favor if you are playing against GFIAFP.

[edjr 6,580]

Odds are in your favor if you are playing against GFIAFP.

 

That's like finding an ATM card with the PIN written on it

[Fireballer 2,642]

@WhiteWonder @RaiderHaters Revenge 

im gonna be getting back into table blackjack on an upcoming trip.  All the tidbits in the OP legit?

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,090]

4 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

@WhiteWonder @RaiderHaters Revenge 

im gonna be getting back into table blackjack on an upcoming trip.  All the tidbits in the OP legit?

Dolph Lundgren might have tips!

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

On 5/26/2015 at 8:47 PM, WhiteWonder said:

gave "card counting" a try for the first time this weekend. Hit a local casino with a few buddies. I usually do pretty well at blackjack just by paying standard game theory

 

-always split aces and 8's, yes

-surrender a 2 card 16 versus a dealer 10, no you never surrender 

- conversely, if you draw to a 16 with 3 or more cards, you stay no you play the same no matter how many cards you draw

-Hit 12 against dealer 2 or 3, (a lot of people stay but the %'s favor the house) yes

-double down 9,10,11 versus dealer 6, yes

-double down 10,11 versus dealer 5 or 6 yes also always double 11

-split 9's against a dealer 9 yes I’d also add split 9’s against an 8 

- hit 7's against a dealer 8,9,10 or split them against a 7 or lower if the house lets you double after a split. yes

 

so card counting is legal if you're using your mind (I read somewhere there was an iphone card counting app.. those types of things are illegal) and the worst that can happen is you get tossed, possibly banned. It's also fairly easy to do and I think I would have done better with more practice. I literally just read a little about it and decided to give it a whirl. Just don't sit at a table with an automatic card shuffler as they render card counting pointless. Play at single or double deck games or even 6-8 deck shoes as I did. Don't sit there glued to the cards as they are dealt. Have a drink in hand, be vocal, basically play as you normally would.

 

I think some people confuse card counting with a way to know HOW to play each specific hand you are dealt like when to hit or stay.... Its not. You play every hand based on standard game theory. Card counting simply tells you when to raise your bet and when to scale it back down to the minimum, OR, possibly sit a few hands out.

 

I apologize if most of you beautiful minds already know this but the most basic card counting concept is +/- counting. You sit down at the start of a fresh shoe and for every 2,3,4,5,6 that gets deal, you add 1. For every 10, J, Q, K, Ace you subtract 1. 7,8,9 are ignored. The easiest thing to do is wait until the entire round has been dealt and take a glance at each players 2 card hand. A,3 would net 0, 4,5 would be +2, 6,K would net 0, 8,Q would be -1 and 2,2 would be +2. Dealer shows a 6 which is +1 so the running count is +4. In a single deck game, this would be cause to up your bet but in a 6 deck shoe (usually only 4-5 decks are played after the dealer "cuts", your true count is more like +1/2 as you need to divide your running count by the number of decks still in play.

 

The idea is, the higher your count is on the + side, the more 10's, face cards and aces are left in the shoe which is more chances for you to be dealt black jacks, 20's and for the dealer to bust. The odds have swung in your favor. On the flip side, the higher your count is in the negative, the more low cards are left in the shoe which is generally not good for you and gives the house an even bigger than normal advantage. So you up your bets when the + count is high and scale back when the count is near even or the negative count is high. You can still win hands by playing basic game theory but the house has the odds and you want to be making minimum bets.

 

So while playing, we were maybe 2 decks into the show and the running count was +22. I started to up my 15 dollar bets to 25 or 30 (i know big player here ) I don't think I lost a single hand where I increased my bet. I also got no blackjacks to boost my winnings and I had no split opportunities. Maybe 1 or 2 double downs. I played for 30 minutes and finished up $160

 

After some shots and rounds I sat back down, this time at a $25 minimum table. Maybe I was a little buzzed, maybe it was the hot girl next to me with almost her entire top unbuttoned, but for whatever reason I could NOT keep anything close to an accurate count. I tried but ended up reverting back to just playing the basics. I was down almost 200 at that table, worked it back to a whopping +10 dollars and it was time to leave

 

 

 

 

sorry for the long GFesque story. Wondering if anyone else does this, has tried it? It really seemed to work at the first table. Considering I got no blackjacks or split opportunities but when the card count was so high in my favor, my increased bets always resulted in 19's and 20's and there was a lot of dealer busting.

@Fireballer

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,348]

Also gameplay changes based on single double or 6 deck shoes. I count cards so I prefer a 6 deck to lower variables 

[Mark Davis 398]

2 hours ago, Fireballer said:

@WhiteWonder @RaiderHaters Revenge 

im gonna be getting back into table blackjack on an upcoming trip.  All the tidbits in the OP legit?

Learn to count, and never play at a table that offers 6:5 on blackjacks.  Find the 3:2 tables, it's getting harder to do.  I was banned from MGM properties in Dec. 2005.  I have to lay low now on the rare occasions I can play and play for short intervals.  Most 3:2 tables are now higher limit, so more watched.  Games have become harder because of that.  Those 6:5 tables with the shuffle machines they hit the tourists on are bleeding their money much faster than they used to.

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:59 PM, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

@Fireballer

-surrender a 2 card 16 versus a dealer 10, no you never surrender   I will, but admittedly I do not play exact basic strategy. I play more a combination of basic along with always assuming the next card will be a 10 (which you wouldn't do if you were counting, but it's been years since I bothered counting). So yeah, if i've got a 10/6 and the dealer s showing 10 sometimes I will surrender. 

- conversely, if you draw to a 16 with 3 or more cards, you stay no you play the same no matter how many cards you draw   I dont even know what I meant here when I typed this out 9 years ago. I never stay on 16,... I'm either hitting or surrendering. 

[Mark Davis 398]

3 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

-surrender a 2 card 16 versus a dealer 10, no you never surrender   I will, but admittedly I do not play exact basic strategy. I play more a combination of basic along with always assuming the next card will be a 10 (which you wouldn't do if you were counting, but it's been years since I bothered counting). So yeah, if i've got a 10/6 and the dealer s showing 10 sometimes I will surrender. 

- conversely, if you draw to a 16 with 3 or more cards, you stay no you play the same no matter how many cards you draw   I dont even know what I meant here when I typed this out 9 years ago. I never stay on 16,... I'm either hitting or surrendering. 

Finding surrender tables is exceedingly rare these days. You have to find some uncommonly liberal rules to allow it. Years ago I can remember Harrahs on the Vegas strip allowed it but it was extremely uncommon even then. Maybe downtown or off strip properties out there. Even where I cut my teeth counting in Mississippi there were no casinos anywhere there who allowed it. When I first started in the late 90s though you could find dealer stand on soft 17 there. 

[Stryker Ryker 188]

I like to play at the $5/hand tables. I lose very minimal but win really big. Been playing cards since I was 4-5 with my grandma & grandpa. Grandpa kept $50k in a bag that he used every week for his “poker money”. I learned a good bit from him, especially his card playing skills. I can go in a casino with $100 & usually turn it into at least $400 before I leave. I typically just play for fun which is why I usually have a maximum of $200 for gambling. Only time I lose it all is if I’m playing something other than poker or blackjack 

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:34 PM, Mark Davis said:

Finding surrender tables is exceedingly rare these days. You have to find some uncommonly liberal rules to allow it. Years ago I can remember Harrahs on the Vegas strip allowed it but it was extremely uncommon even then. Maybe downtown or off strip properties out there. Even where I cut my teeth counting in Mississippi there were no casinos anywhere there who allowed it. When I first started in the late 90s though you could find dealer stand on soft 17 there. 

Oceans in AC allows it. that's the only place i've been lately.

[Mark Davis 398]

23 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

Oceans in AC allows it. that's the only place i've been lately.

Interesting.   Never been to AC, lots of Vegas trips and MS casinos.  Used to hit a few wherever I was when traveling for work.  I did hear at some point AC was struggling pretty badly so they were looser with rules to try and gain customer share.

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

1 minute ago, Mark Davis said:

Interesting.   Never been to AC, lots of Vegas trips and MS casinos.  Used to hit a few wherever I was when traveling for work.  I did hear at some point AC was struggling pretty badly so they were looser with rules to try and gain customer share.

I highly doubt any allowance of surrendering, etc. was done in AC in order to attract gamblers... I mean, yes, likely a reason Oceans is doing it but not AC as a whole.... AC was (and probably is still) struggling ever since Hurricane Sandy. A majority of the Casinos from my very first trip, the week after I turned 21, don't exist anymore. Back then the popular place to go was the Taj to play poker because of Rounders .. sad. But I did like their poker room. I didn't even play blackjack back then and now I rarely play poker. 

Caesars is still there, I stopped a few years ago on my way home from Cape May and don't recall caesars having surrender at their tables. 

AC is just a shiithole, but it's a relatively easy drive for me 

[Mark Davis 398]

Just now, WhiteWonder said:

 

AC is just a shiithole, but it's a relatively easy drive for me 

I'm not one to judge.  I've logged more hours in Vicksburg MS than anywhere else.  When I was fresh out of college my first job was in Jackson MS.  Vicksburg was 1 hour door to door from my apartment.  There were nights I'd go gamble til 2-3 AM, drive home, then sleep 2-3 hours and go to work.  I usually focused hard on the cards but one time I looked around the casino there at 2 AM on a weeknight, boy it was depressing to see the folks who were there.  I didn't pull that shift very often.  I had a bad habit of gambling hard on football, losing a bunch, then going and counting cards on a late Saturday night to get it back.  If I'd only had the sense to not gamble on football and just invest the money from counting.  

[WhiteWonder 2,734]

1 minute ago, Mark Davis said:

I'm not one to judge.  I've logged more hours in Vicksburg MS than anywhere else.  When I was fresh out of college my first job was in Jackson MS.  Vicksburg was 1 hour door to door from my apartment.  There were nights I'd go gamble til 2-3 AM, drive home, then sleep 2-3 hours and go to work.  I usually focused hard on the cards but one time I looked around the casino there at 2 AM on a weeknight, boy it was depressing to see the folks who were there.  I didn't pull that shift very often.  I had a bad habit of gambling hard on football, losing a bunch, then going and counting cards on a late Saturday night to get it back.  If I'd only had the sense to not gamble on football and just invest the money from counting.  

I think the combo of Sandy, followed by the legalization of gambling from home in all the surrounding states really smashed AC. Unlike Vegas, it's really not a place people want to go for a "vacation". They need to fix up the areas surrounding all the casinos. When I do go it's like good lord just get me to the parking garage of the casino and leaving is just get to the AC expressway and gtfo.