Now that the transcripts have been released for deflategate.....

[DankNuggs 305]

 

the Judge doesn't think the appeal was "fair' nor was "due process" granted because NFLPA was not allowed to call Pash, the editor of the Wells Report, as a witness. The NFL withheld a key witness and by doing so prevented the NFLPA from defending themselves in arbitration.

 

Berman has ripped the NFL from both a procedural and an evidence standpoint.

 

He has wanted both sides to settle from the beginning, but now it really looks like he's telling the NFL if they don't settle, they are going to lose big.

Legal experts are speculating that If Goodell doesn't settle and loses, a precedent will be set that makes it easy for any players to challenge Goodell's discipline rulings in the future.

I think its a possibility if the leaks are right, that the judge is leaning into the NFL to compel them to settle... Like i said, the job of the judge in these situations is to convince each side they are going to lose in order to motivate them towards a settlement. It sounds like Brady has moved in that direction in willing to accept a 1gm for non cooperation, now its time to get the NFL to move... with the hope they meet in the middle.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

I think its a possibility if the leaks are right, that the judge is leaning into the NFL to compel them to settle... Like i said, the job of the judge in these situations is to convince each side they are going to lose in order to motivate them towards a settlement. It sounds like Brady has moved in that direction in willing to accept a 1gm for non cooperation, now its time to get the NFL to move... with the hope they meet in the middle.

And if Brady accepts the non cooperation part, what did he actually do that was uncooperative?

[DankNuggs 305]

And if Brady accepts the non cooperation part, what did he actually do that was uncooperative?

not give something that wasn't asked for

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

not give something that wasn't asked for

I don't get it

[edjr 6,580]

And if Brady accepts the non cooperation part, what did he actually do that was uncooperative?

 

seems like semantics at this point?

 

if he takes any games he just wants it over

[NewbieJr 541]

 

seems like semantics at this point?

 

if he takes any games he just wants it over

Same goes for the NFL if they concede some games on the suspension

[edjr 6,580]

Same goes for the NFL if they concede some games on the suspension

 

sure.

 

it's so far beyond the point of ridiculousness.

 

ADP just went through this and hardy and we didn't hear word one of it.

 

just end the embarrassment, from both sides. neither side seems to want to budge.

 

Goddell's last hurrah.

[cbfalcon 825]

And if Brady accepts the non cooperation part, what did he actually do that was uncooperative?

 

Well, non-cooperation is pretty much the only thing Brady can admit without essentially confessing to perjury. So if there is going to be any settlement, it will have to be related to non cooperation.

[TD Ryan2 316]

I don't get it

this goes back to last week when Brady's attorneys opened the "non-cooperation" pathway.

 

Berman: Why did Mr. Brady not cooperate with the Wells investigation, with respect to providing texts?

Kessler: Wells did not communicate directly with Brady on this or establish expectation of punishment. Brady, did not communicate directly with Wells on advice from his agent, Don Yee, also an attorney.

 

So, basically, Wells asked Brady's lawyers for texts and they said no.

Non-cooperation.

[Djgb13 2,339]

Either way a bad precedent is going to result from this. Either it leads to every NFL player being able to challenge their punishment and ultimately win or Goodell will get more power and be able to punish as he sees fit. Even increasing punishments once they are handed down

[edjr 6,580]

Either way a bad precedent is going to result from this. Either it leads to every NFL player being able to challenge their punishment and ultimately win or Goodell will get more power and be able to punish as he sees fit. Even increasing punishments once they are handed down

 

this part of the CBA may need to be re-visted before 2018

[Sho Nuff 720]

Either way a bad precedent is going to result from this. Either it leads to every NFL player being able to challenge their punishment and ultimately win or Goodell will get more power and be able to punish as he sees fit. Even increasing punishments once they are handed down

How is that giving Goodell more power?

The CBA basically already gives him that power.

[cbfalcon 825]

 

sure.

 

it's so far beyond the point of ridiculousness.

 

ADP just went through this and hardy and we didn't hear word one of it.

 

just end the embarrassment, from both sides. neither side seems to want to budge.

 

Goddell's last hurrah.

 

ADP and Hardy had objective judges hear their appeals. When that happened, Goodell lost.

This case was too high profile, and had way less evidence than those. Goodell was going to do anything legally in his power, right or wrong, to make sure he didn't lose. Hence, the prosecutor, whose career possibly depends on a guilty ruling, made himself the appeals judge.

 

It's just so blatantly crooked that I don't understand how anyone here can agree with the penalty standing.

[TD Ryan2 316]

How is that giving Goodell more power?

The CBA basically already gives him that power.

 

correct.

and now, if a Judge looks it all over and says, "This is great, nothing wrong here"... he sets legal precedent that hurts anyone challenging Goodell going forward.

[edjr 6,580]

 

ADP and Hardy had objective judges hear their appeals. When that happened, Goodell lost.

This case was too high profile, and had way less evidence than those. Goodell was going to do anything legally in his power, right or wrong, to make sure he didn't lose. Hence, the prosecutor, whose career possibly depends on a guilty ruling, made himself the appeals judge.

 

It's just so blatantly crooked that I don't understand how anyone here can agree with the penalty standing.

 

YEAH BUT THE DEFLATOR, BROKEN PHONE

[TD Ryan2 316]

 

YEAH BUT THE DEFLATOR, BROKEN PHONE

ELEVEN of TWELVE !!!

 

The NFL clearly won the headline battle... they leaked anything/everything whether it was true or relevant in an effort to put the public on their side.

[Djgb13 2,339]

 

correct.

and now, if a Judge looks it all over and says, "This is great, nothing wrong here"... he sets legal precedent that hurts anyone challenging Goodell going forward.

Yes that's what I was getting at. It would cripple others who want to appeal legally

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

correct.

and now, if a Judge looks it all over and says, "This is great, nothing wrong here"... he sets legal precedent that hurts anyone challenging Goodell going forward.

I think he wants to overturn based on no direct evidence and not letting them interview Pash. But doesn't want to overturn part of an existing CBA...and that is why he is pushing settlement.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Yes that's what I was getting at. It would cripple others who want to appeal legally

It would confirm the CBA that the NFLPA agreed to.

[cbfalcon 825]

How is that giving Goodell more power?

The CBA basically already gives him that power.

The simple answer is "precedent". If a court makes a decision, the same court and all lesser courts are typically bound by that decision.

 

So while the CBA may technically give him the power to decide punishments and decide appeals, clearly there is some legal implication of a fair process, etc........If the judge declares that the process was unfair and there was no cause to suspend and it was unfair of the prosecutor to also judge the appeal, yet still rules in Goodells favor, while he may not technically be expanding Goodell's power, he will in reality be expanding his power a great deal. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say Goodell could look at JJ Watt tomorrow, determine he may have taken HGH, and give him a lifetime suspension.

 

Obviously that's a ridiculously over the top extreme example, and the backlash would likely cost him his job, etc....But legally I think we'd be at the point in which he had the power to do so, backed up by the court system.

[TD Ryan2 316]

I think he wants to overturn based on no direct evidence and not letting them interview Pash. But doesn't want to overturn part of an existing CBA...and that is why he is pushing settlement.

agreed.

I don't think the Judge is in an easy spot here either.

 

Overturning an existing CBA has "precedent" consequences that reach far beyond football.

[edjr 6,580]

Doesn't matter what this judge says really.

 

it's going to appeals court

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

I can't see Brady copping to being uncooperative, that's an indication of something to hide, and I can't see the NFL taking less, seeing as Brady was uncooperative. What kind of precident does that set? Don't cooperate with our investigation and you can get less? I always understood that if either side didn't present evidence when requested, it was to be viewed as detrimental to that sides case. Goodell screwed this up so bad. I'm at the point where now I'm starting to root for Brady just to see Goodell look even dumber.

[NewbieJr 541]

ELEVEN of TWELVE !!!

 

The NFL clearly won the headline battle... they leaked anything/everything whether it was true or relevant in an effort to put the public on their side.

The NFL made up the The Deflator and Brady destroying his phone? Lolol. That's what you've taken from this? :cuckoo:

[mighty_thor 115]

Like I said in an earlier post. The NFL's appeal process is flawed. It doesn't really matter if the Union agreed to it. A judge sees through the bullshiit appeal process. If they had an impartial mediator hear the appeal then this never would have made it to court.You can tell the Judge is not happy to be wasting his time on this case. And I think a poster had it right earlier, Brady made a movement in the settlement and now the judge wants the NFL to make a move. A 2 game suspension with no admission of guilt looks like the middle ground to me. If the NFL doesn't budge, I think the Judge rules in Brady's favor and Goodell is finished as commissioner.

[cbfalcon 825]

The NFL made up the The Deflator and Brady destroying his phone? Lolol. That's what you've taken from this? :cuckoo:

 

I'm just shocked that this is all you need to so confidently declare a man guilty that you feel he should be punished beyond all prior precedent.

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

The simple answer is "precedent". If a court makes a decision, the same court and all lesser courts are typically bound by that decision.

 

So while the CBA may technically give him the power to decide punishments and decide appeals, clearly there is some legal implication of a fair process, etc........If the judge declares that the process was unfair and there was no cause to suspend and it was unfair of the prosecutor to also judge the appeal, yet still rules in Goodells favor, while he may not technically be expanding Goodell's power, he will in reality be expanding his power a great deal. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say Goodell could look at JJ Watt tomorrow, determine he may have taken HGH, and give him a lifetime suspension.

 

Obviously that's a ridiculously over the top extreme example, and the backlash would likely cost him his job, etc....But legally I think we'd be at the point in which he had the power to do so, backed up by the court system.

No matter what side people are on, I think the precedent would be if he overturns and the NFL commish, any commish, loses all power to punish and that part of the CBA becomes irrelevant.

[NewbieJr 541]

 

I agree.

[cbfalcon 825]

No matter what side people are on, I think the precedent would be if he overturns and the NFL commish, any commish, loses all power to punish and that part of the CBA becomes irrelevant.

 

I don't believe anyone is advocating commissioners lose all power to punish. But there has to be SOME form of checks and balances.

 

To me, this really looks like a blatant abuse of power being perpetrated by a man acting emotionally with complete blindness to his own lack of reason. As far as my confidence is concerned, his actions here make him untrustworthy in ANY decision making capacity. It's damning enough for me to feel much more confident saying Roger Goodell isn't fit to hold any position of power than I am confident enough to say Tom Brady was involved in the deflating of footballs.

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

I don't believe anyone is advocating commissioners lose all power to punish. But there has to be SOME form of checks and balances.

 

To me, this really looks like a blatant abuse of power being perpetrated by a man acting emotionally with complete blindness to his own lack of reason. As far as my confidence is concerned, his actions here make him untrustworthy in ANY decision making capacity. It's damning enough for me to feel much more confident saying Roger Goodell isn't fit to hold any position of power than I am confident enough to say Tom Brady was involved in the deflating of footballs.

To me it looks like a use of the power granted to him thru labor negotiations.

Does it suck that he or any one man has that much power...sure.

[DankNuggs 305]

The NFL made up the The Deflator and Brady destroying his phone? Lolol. That's what you've taken from this? :cuckoo:

Your foundation of hate is made from a leaked NFL source to Mortenson saying 11 of 12 balls were severely deflated. You are living proof of the power of first impressions

 

You make the conclusion that there was a huge disparity with the colts when only 4 colts balls were tested.one was under inflated (remember a fat dude on a slanted floor can precisely deflate 12 individual balls to exacting specifications and get them back in the mesh bag in 1:30.) they can't test the balls. There is some irony in the league spouting about protecting integrity when they wouldn't take the time uphold it for fear of upsetting their TV contract overlords. Like there is some big issue with Al yapping for a few extra minutes.

 

Deflator or not, there is no proof, there was no protocol, there was no precedent. Had they simply used it as example to establish protocols and issued a warning there would have been no inquiry to the fact they had no proof.

[Cruzer 1,995]

No matter what side people are on, I think the precedent would be if he overturns and the NFL commish, any commish, loses all power to punish and that part of the CBA becomes irrelevant.

And not just the NFL... Pandora's box will be open to every Tom, and Harry from every other professional sports team who's player the big bad Commish screwed me.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

If this judge is looking at the evidence in this case, how can he possibly make a ruling without testimony from the ball boys? They are at the heart of this thing. If they testified that they did it on their own, I would accept that and presume Brady innocent. But if they don't answer questions under oath, this is all a farce IMO.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,438]

 

I don't believe anyone is advocating commissioners lose all power to punish. But there has to be SOME form of checks and balances.

 

To me, this really looks like a blatant abuse of power being perpetrated by a man acting emotionally with complete blindness to his own lack of reason. As far as my confidence is concerned, his actions here make him untrustworthy in ANY decision making capacity. It's damning enough for me to feel much more confident saying Roger Goodell isn't fit to hold any position of power than I am confident enough to say Tom Brady was involved in the deflating of footballs.

I agree with all of this. And I don't see how Goodell survives this. Hopefully, the owners see this and understand the black eye he has given the league. Time to move on. Replacing him is the first step when this chapter finally comes to a close.

[Djgb13 2,339]

If this judge is looking at the evidence in this case, how can he possibly make a ruling without testimony from the ball boys? They are at the heart of this thing. If they testified that they did it on their own, I would accept that and presume Brady innocent. But if they don't answer questions under oath, this is all a farce IMO.

I agree. They should be present and testify. I also think Jeff Pash should testify as well since he was the one who edited the Wells Report. These key individuals should have to come before the judge and give a testimony.

[mighty_thor 115]

The thing is that Goodell had a hand in the original suspension and then heard the appeal and upheld it. The CBA gives him unlimited power but there has to be a reasonableness to his punishment or an established guideline. He just can't go suspend a guy for two years for wearing his socks too low. The fact that the judge did not think deflating a ball was similar to a PED violation is huge for Brady.

"How could Mr. Goodell, in his decision to uphold the (four-game suspension), equate the act of intentionally deflating footballs to a player taking performance-enhancing drugs?"

“Mr. Goodell found that the deflation of the balls was to gain a competitive advantage, which he deemed an example of conduct detrimental to the league,” Nash said. “The judgment involves the integrity of the game.”

“I have a little trouble with that,” Berman responded. “Everything involves the integrity of the game.”

Nash, again, didn’t have an answer.

 

In the previous hearing he kind of questioned what advantage Brady got from deflating a ball since his passing was better in the 2nd half of the game which again was taking a shot at the NFL's linkage of PED and ball deflation. The linking of Deflation and PED violation is key to getting the 4 games.

 

The NFL at first seemed to be punishing Brady for his non cooperation along with the deflation (some theorized 2 games for each). But in the appeal ruling they changed tact and said the 4 games were for scheming to deflate the ball. My thinking was that there was absolutely no precedence for suspending a player for non-cooperation in an investigation. (Favre did not cooperate in an investigation of his sexting and did not get suspended) so the NFL went away from any inference that part of his suspension was for non-cooperation in its appeal ruling. The judge even asked the lawyer today about the non-cooperation part of it:

On three occasions, according to Currin, Berman asked, "How are deflating footballs and not cooperating with the commissioner legally comparable to steroid use and a masking agent? ... "It's clearly a fair question to pose. [Goodell's] explanation of steroid use only raises more questions than it answers."

More from Berman: "So the next time someone tampers with a ball but cooperates, what would he get?"

Nash's response: "The amount of discipline would be based on the sound judgment of the commissioner."

 

I don't think the NFL knows how to answer that now because they have been all over the place.

[NewbieJr 541]

Your foundation of hate is made from a leaked NFL source to Mortenson saying 11 of 12 balls were severely deflated. You are living proof of the power of first impressions

 

You make the conclusion that there was a huge disparity with the colts when only 4 colts balls were tested.one was under inflated (remember a fat dude on a slanted floor can precisely deflate 12 individual balls to exacting specifications and get them back in the mesh bag in 1:30.) they can't test the balls. There is some irony in the league spouting about protecting integrity when they wouldn't take the time uphold it for fear of upsetting their TV contract overlords. Like there is some big issue with Al yapping for a few extra minutes.

 

Deflator or not, there is no proof, there was no protocol, there was no precedent. Had they simply used it as example to establish protocols and issued a warning there would have been no inquiry to the fact they had no proof.

Why did the Patriots fire the two ball boys?

Why haven't they brought them back?

[TD Ryan2 316]

The ball boys were not fired - they were suspended at the request of the NFL / Goodell

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

The ball boys were not fired - they were suspended at the request of the NFL / Goodell

They should be testifying.

[edjr 6,580]

ESPN issued a 7 year late apology