Saudi Golf Tour

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

Masters week brought the entire PGA/LIV thing back freshly to my mind.   My elderly grandmother who I watched part of yesterday's round with saying... "I thought these guys that left were not allowed to play"...  I had to explain to her that the only one banning players, in the entire sport of golf, is the PGA Tour. They lobbied to have the majors ban them too but unfortunately, each major has it's own governing body.

She went on to ask why they would be allowed to play if they chose to leave... I again explained that the Masters doesn't care what the PGA Tour says or does. Golfers play on different tours all over the world. 

That's what happens when you get your feelers hurt and get upset that you're not the only game in town anymore. .... Yet many people only want to point to LIV players and call them the ones bitching and moaning. In some cases, they are. In some cases they shouldn't be because they made their decision, while being aware of the childish reaction from the PGA... But in some cases it's justified. If the PGA can bitch and moan, LIV players probably have at least some right to complain in terms of being banned from events which is fairly unprecedented in the sport of golf. 

Also had a friend bring up the tired "history and prestige" argument again.  As if any brand new league in any sport could possibly have any history associated with it. I pointed to the Fedex cup, which no one liked when the PGA first introduced it and now it is probably up there in the top 10 most desirable titles a golfer can capture. 

My father, who I also watched most of Saturday and Sunday with likes to get on my nerves and say those guys shouldn't even be there. We've argued back and forth and I think he realizes my arguments are stronger so he defaults to making comments about them playing 3 rounds and wearing shorts. 

At this point I think the only thing PGA die hards can cling to is the Saudi Money issue. Totally agree. But Norman has wanted to create a golf league for a long time and the PGA always squashed it. It was going to take big $$$ to ever get it off the ground. 

All I hate is the fact that the best in the world are not all playing together more often. I wish the PGA had been proactive versus reactive. I still believe contracting players would have solved a lot of issues. 

2 LIV Golfers were in the top 10  (3 in the top 12 and 7 made the cut out of 60... which is reasonable compared to the size of each league).. I am sure the PGA was very happy that Sunday's battle was between 4 PGA guys after Brooks and Phil finished t2 last year and then Rahm left. 

 

 

i know

TLDR

[listen2me 23 1,546]

4 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

Masters week brought the entire PGA/LIV thing back freshly to my mind.   My elderly grandmother who I watched part of yesterday's round with saying... "I thought these guys that left were not allowed to play"...  I had to explain to her that the only one banning players, in the entire sport of golf, is the PGA Tour. They lobbied to have the majors ban them too but unfortunately, each major has it's own governing body.

She went on to ask why they would be allowed to play if they chose to leave... I again explained that the Masters doesn't care what the PGA Tour says or does. Golfers play on different tours all over the world. 

That's what happens when you get your feelers hurt and get upset that you're not the only game in town anymore. .... Yet many people only want to point to LIV players and call them the ones bitching and moaning. In some cases, they are. In some cases they shouldn't be because they made their decision, while being aware of the childish reaction from the PGA... But in some cases it's justified. If the PGA can bitch and moan, LIV players probably have at least some right to complain in terms of being banned from events which is fairly unprecedented in the sport of golf. 

Also had a friend bring up the tired "history and prestige" argument again.  As if any brand new league in any sport could possibly have any history associated with it. I pointed to the Fedex cup, which no one liked when the PGA first introduced it and now it is probably up there in the top 10 most desirable titles a golfer can capture. 

My father, who I also watched most of Saturday and Sunday with likes to get on my nerves and say those guys shouldn't even be there. We've argued back and forth and I think he realizes my arguments are stronger so he defaults to making comments about them playing 3 rounds and wearing shorts. 

At this point I think the only thing PGA die hards can cling to is the Saudi Money issue. Totally agree. But Norman has wanted to create a golf league for a long time and the PGA always squashed it. It was going to take big $$$ to ever get it off the ground. 

All I hate is the fact that the best in the world are not all playing together more often. I wish the PGA had been proactive versus reactive. I still believe contracting players would have solved a lot of issues. 

2 LIV Golfers were in the top 10  (3 in the top 12 and 7 made the cut out of 60... which is reasonable compared to the size of each league).. I am sure the PGA was very happy that Sunday's battle was between 4 PGA guys after Brooks and Phil finished t2 last year and then Rahm left. 

 

 

i know

TLDR

You have so many LIV testicles in your mouth lol

[Fireballer 2,385]

4 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

Masters week brought the entire PGA/LIV thing back freshly to my mind.   My elderly grandmother who I watched part of yesterday's round with saying... "I thought these guys that left were not allowed to play"...  I had to explain to her that the only one banning players, in the entire sport of golf, is the PGA Tour. They lobbied to have the majors ban them too but unfortunately, each major has it's own governing body.

She went on to ask why they would be allowed to play if they chose to leave... I again explained that the Masters doesn't care what the PGA Tour says or does. Golfers play on different tours all over the world. 

That's what happens when you get your feelers hurt and get upset that you're not the only game in town anymore. .... Yet many people only want to point to LIV players and call them the ones bitching and moaning. In some cases, they are. In some cases they shouldn't be because they made their decision, while being aware of the childish reaction from the PGA... But in some cases it's justified. If the PGA can bitch and moan, LIV players probably have at least some right to complain in terms of being banned from events which is fairly unprecedented in the sport of golf. 

Also had a friend bring up the tired "history and prestige" argument again.  As if any brand new league in any sport could possibly have any history associated with it. I pointed to the Fedex cup, which no one liked when the PGA first introduced it and now it is probably up there in the top 10 most desirable titles a golfer can capture. 

My father, who I also watched most of Saturday and Sunday with likes to get on my nerves and say those guys shouldn't even be there. We've argued back and forth and I think he realizes my arguments are stronger so he defaults to making comments about them playing 3 rounds and wearing shorts. 

At this point I think the only thing PGA die hards can cling to is the Saudi Money issue. Totally agree. But Norman has wanted to create a golf league for a long time and the PGA always squashed it. It was going to take big $$$ to ever get it off the ground. 

All I hate is the fact that the best in the world are not all playing together more often. I wish the PGA had been proactive versus reactive. I still believe contracting players would have solved a lot of issues. 

2 LIV Golfers were in the top 10  (3 in the top 12 and 7 made the cut out of 60... which is reasonable compared to the size of each league).. I am sure the PGA was very happy that Sunday's battle was between 4 PGA guys after Brooks and Phil finished t2 last year and then Rahm left. 

 

 

i know

TLDR

Pretty sound rationale.  I didn’t follow it that closely when they first left, but did the OWGR take the immediate stance to not award points?  Obviously the writing was on the wall, Monohan is on OWGRs board, but did they say specifically that they would not award points?  

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

1 minute ago, listen2me 23 said:

You have so many LIV testicles in your mouth lol

I'm just able to step back and analyze the situation without getting bent out of shape over "the state of golf". I watch PGA. I have watched a little bit of LIV here and there but I will always default to PGA. It's what I grew up watching.  I'd prefer if none of this ever happened but I'm also willing to admit that LIV did a great job exposing the flaws of the PGA. 

I just laugh at the anti LIV crew who all sound like Bandel Chamblee ... it's a vicious attack on the sport   

[listen2me 23 1,546]

8 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I'm just able to step back and analyze the situation without getting bent out of shape over "the state of golf". I watch PGA. I have watched a little bit of LIV here and there but I will always default to PGA. It's what I grew up watching.  I'd prefer if none of this ever happened but I'm also willing to admit that LIV did a great job exposing the flaws of the PGA. 

I just laugh at the anti LIV crew who all sound like Bandel Chamblee ... it's a vicious attack on the sport   

Someone says one thing about Rahm and each time you get up on your soapbox and rehash all the reasons the PGA messed this up.  I know you deliberately didnt quote me.  But you will literally argue with yourself anytime this thread is bumped.   

The split is old news and has already been discussed at nauseum.

I just laugh at Rahm.  "Boo hoo someone gave me a cold shoulder".  

A handful of LIV events in and he wants to change the 54 hole format.  Lol.  Thats just downright hilarious.  They are literally named after "54" and when it was created thr 3 round concept was a part of what made this unique and enticing.   Or so people said.  

He sounds exactly like a person who isn't secure in the decision he made.  Its sort of funny to watch him squirm.   

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

5 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Pretty sound rationale.  I didn’t follow it that closely when they first left, but did the OWGR take the immediate stance to not award points?  Obviously the writing was on the wall, Monohan is on OWGRs board, but did they say specifically that they would not award points?  

If I recall, the league was formed, THEN the PGA in an effort to deter players from joining, implemented their bans. Players who signed with LIV knew the consequences of those bans... at least most of them. Maybe not the very first wave.

I dont believe OWGR body ever stated no world ranking points right off the bat. It was always known that LIV would need to apply for points, like any other tour. I think at some point last year, during LIV second season, the application was denied. 

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

1 minute ago, listen2me 23 said:

Someone says one thing about Rahm and each time you get up on your soapbox and rehash all the reasons the PGA messed this up.  I know you deliberately didnt quote me.  But you will literally argue with yourself anytime this thread is bumped.   

The split is old news and has already been discussed at nauseum.

I just laugh at Rahm.  "Boo hoo someone gave me a cold shoulder".  

A handful of LIV events in and he wants to change the 54 hole format.  Lol.  Thats just downright hilarious.  They are literally named after "54" and when it was created thr 3 round concept was a part of what made this unique and enticing.   Or so people said.  

He sounds exactly like a person who isn't secure in the decision he made.  Its sort of funny to watch him squirm.   

 

Actually, I didn't quote you because I don't care what you said. I didn't read what you said about Rahm. I know you won't believe me but my initial intention was to post about LIV/PGA in our Edex thread   (the one you're not a part of yet popped into anyway to give your 2 cents on someone's draft picks lol)  I saw the Saudi Golf thread on the front page and felt it was better to post in here. 

You literally argue anything and everything in sports threads... i'm pretty sure you were arguing with me about Justin Fields even though we were saying the same thing  but you were hung up on a sentence you didn't understand. 

 

Now that I am reading what you're saying about Rahm specifically, I don't disagree with you.... I think we have even discussed this before (the idea of LIV guys complaining).  Although I do believe that Rahm mentioned something about wanting to try to reshape or help shape things in his initial presser after signing. Not 100% sure on that.

[Fireballer 2,385]

35 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

If I recall, the league was formed, THEN the PGA in an effort to deter players from joining, implemented their bans. Players who signed with LIV knew the consequences of those bans... at least most of them. Maybe not the very first wave.

I dont believe OWGR body ever stated no world ranking points right off the bat. It was always known that LIV would need to apply for points, like any other tour. I think at some point last year, during LIV second season, the application was denied. 

I think if anything, I bet Norman convinced these guys that they would eventually get OWGR points. I’d be curious to know how many would have not jumped into LIV if they knew for a fact that they would never get OWGR points.  Sad, but I don’t know what you do. Reed plays enough Asian events to at least keep him relevant.  Hatton and Rahm may play enough DP events to do it.  Brooks’ play in majors has kept him up there.  Oh well, if LIV won’t budge on format, I guess the players just have to eat it.

[Fumbleweed 426]

1 hour ago, Fireballer said:

I think if anything, I bet Norman convinced these guys that they would eventually get OWGR points. I’d be curious to know how many would have not jumped into LIV if they knew for a fact that they would never get OWGR points.  Sad, but I don’t know what you do. Reed plays enough Asian events to at least keep him relevant.  Hatton and Rahm may play enough DP events to do it.  Brooks’ play in majors has kept him up there.  Oh well, if LIV won’t budge on format, I guess the players just have to eat it.

If LIV wants to be taken seriously, they need to conform to golf's standards. They can still play loud music at all times, wear shorts, and do whatever they want in terms of style. But, they need to play 72 holes and they need to have membership by merit. All the Westwoods and Poulters and Stensons in the league are just collecting checks. They never sniff the top half of LIV leaderboards. And I like Westwood and Stenson personally. I just think LIV is a bad product and I can't understand why they think it's the OWGR's responsibility to bend to their will. Play something more than exhibition golf and play it four days. If you're not willing to do that, just shut up and enjoy the ride into obscurity. 

[Mike Honcho 4,039]

8 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

If LIV wants to be taken seriously, they need to conform to golf's standards. They can still play loud music at all times, wear shorts, and do whatever they want in terms of style. But, they need to play 72 holes and they need to have membership by merit. All the Westwoods and Poulters and Stensons in the league are just collecting checks. They never sniff the top half of LIV leaderboards. And I like Westwood and Stenson personally. I just think LIV is a bad product and I can't understand why they think it's the OWGR's responsibility to bend to their will. Play something more than exhibition golf and play it four days. If you're not willing to do that, just shut up and enjoy the ride into obscurity. 

Would they change the name to the LXXII Tour then?

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

2 hours ago, Fireballer said:

I think if anything, I bet Norman convinced these guys that they would eventually get OWGR points. I’d be curious to know how many would have not jumped into LIV if they knew for a fact that they would never get OWGR points.  Sad, but I don’t know what you do. Reed plays enough Asian events to at least keep him relevant.  Hatton and Rahm may play enough DP events to do it.  Brooks’ play in majors has kept him up there.  Oh well, if LIV won’t budge on format, I guess the players just have to eat it.

Im sure that was part of Norman's pitch, especially to the bigger names who have jumped ship more recently. It was a risk they had to be willing to take but I do think common sense says that if enough top talent in the world of golf ends up there, OWGR would consider or reconsider. 

Guys playing DP events are still mostly doing so by invitation, although as I understand it, players who were not members of the DP Tour are nut under any of their sanctions.

Going to 4 rounds would be the simplest way to just get past that hurdle

[Fireballer 2,385]

32 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

 

Going to 4 rounds would be the simplest way to just get past that hurdle

It certainly seems so.  And, I think OWGR now gives points for everyone who makes a cut, so they would have to do that too.  Also, although I’m a fan of a lot of LIV guys, the wearing of the uniforms at a major is ghey as fok.  

[Fireballer 2,385]

49 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

Would they change the name to the LXXII Tour then?

Licks Eyes tour?

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

25 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

If LIV wants to be taken seriously, they need to conform to golf's standards. They can still play loud music at all times, wear shorts, and do whatever they want in terms of style. But, they need to play 72 holes and they need to have membership by merit. All the Westwoods and Poulters and Stensons in the league are just collecting checks. They never sniff the top half of LIV leaderboards. And I like Westwood and Stenson personally. I just think LIV is a bad product and I can't understand why they think it's the OWGR's responsibility to bend to their will. Play something more than exhibition golf and play it four days. If you're not willing to do that, just shut up and enjoy the ride into obscurity. 

Because this is the way its always been done?.... What about the evolution of sport? What about prior to 1986 when OWGR didn't exist? What if golf starts trending in the direction of contracted players where "merit" only matters in terms of being released or not getting a new deal? That last part is pure speculation but it seemed to be what a lot of golfers wanted. Some sort of guarantee without grinding to make a cut for a payday.

Don't get me wrong, i'd prefer 72 hole events and a merit based system myself but I have always sympathized with some of the argument that athletes in other sports get paid if injured, sitting out a game, etc. PGA stars make plenty, even just on endorsements alone... but so do the stars in other sports. 

As far as right now, I think they probably just need 1 of the 2 things you mentioned. And I believe they are trying to implement a relegation system to sort of be their "merit" which gets an eyeroll from me but the idea behind LIV was not to just make another tour following the same mold as everything else. 

 

As to the last bolded sentence, I have read a few places that the OWGR mission statement on their website changed in 2022, conveniently. Prior to 2022 it read as follows

"The Governing Board and its Technical Committee have continuously monitored and refined the system over the years taking into account the ever changing structure of world golf and suggestions made from players and Tours alike."

it now reads

"The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide."

 

I find that interesting.

[listen2me 23 1,546]

6 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

 

Now that I am reading what you're saying about Rahm specifically, I don't disagree with you.... I think we have even discussed this before (the idea of LIV guys complaining).  Although I do believe that Rahm mentioned something about wanting to try to reshape or help shape things in his initial presser after signing. Not 100% sure on that.

I just find a guy like Rahm funny.  At least guys like Brooks DJ and Cam live with their decision.   

Rahm when guys were jumping and he was staying said he never played golf for monetary purposes.  Asked out loud if 400 million would change how he lives, and said no it wouldnt.  

Then jumped anyway.  Took the money and now wants to change the league as the brand new guy.  

Just say it was about money.  Clearly Rahm doesn't get off on competing in LIV events.  

At least some of the guys would give it to you straight.  Hey they offered me 150 mill.  I took it.  

Seems to me Rahm isnt comfortable with the decision he made even if he says he is.  Seems clear he isn't.   

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

54 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

I just find a guy like Rahm funny.  At least guys like Brooks DJ and Cam live with their decision.   

Rahm when guys were jumping and he was staying said he never played golf for monetary purposes.  Asked out loud if 400 million would change how he lives, and said no it wouldnt.  

Then jumped anyway.  Took the money and now wants to change the league as the brand new guy.  

Just say it was about money.  Clearly Rahm doesn't get off on competing in LIV events.  

At least some of the guys would give it to you straight.  Hey they offered me 150 mill.  I took it.  

Seems to me Rahm isnt comfortable with the decision he made even if he says he is.  Seems clear he isn't.   

I don’t know if I buy it being about comfort. The initial wave of guys who may have thought there would be no ban from pga events, thought there would be owgr points, etc… I could maybe buy them regretting their decision. Rahm joined so recently that no new information has emerged. 
 

maybe I don’t read enough of their quotes for it to come off as crying to me. With the team Rahm has around him, how smart of a guy he always seemed to be and how much he claimed to care about history and the god Seve Ballesteros, I really doubt his ultimate decision to take the money wasn’t well thought out. What he said about the money previously was when Monahan and puppet Rory were still feeding the company line… we saw how that worked out. Rory regrets it and has even backtracked on multiple LIV issues. Perhaps Rahm, in light of the handshake deal between the PGA and PIF decided to take the money and assume we’d eventually have one entity anyway. Perhaps knowing he was a top 2-3 player in the world and their biggest draw, he’d have a lot of influence.  

[Bert 1,092]

Those LIV studs sure channeled their overlord's Masters failures.  

[Fireballer 2,385]

 

[bostonlager 2,465]

Tried looking up Rory’s major exemption status and couldn’t find it. 
 

PGA - lifetime 

Open - lifetime until he turns 60. 
 

US Open - he is past 10 year status 

Masters - ?

 

Pursuit of the career slam could be coming to an end if his Augusta invite is based solely on his OWGR ranking. 

[WhiteWonder 2,172]

 

[listen2me 23 1,546]

850 mill for current Rory?   Inflation?  Lol

Not that the Saudis care about the price.  They should just buy college football and baseball next.  Fun times.