OK let’s talk about the border

[BuckSwope 654]

6 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Bingo.  You first secure the border then you figure out the best immigration policies for those legally wanting to come to America.  It's like a Castle, there should be a mote around the whole thing for security but a huge bridge and large door in front for those wanting to come legally and peacefully.  

Maybe you guys need to define what is expected of a "secure border" and what you are basing it on?   What is your definition of what a secure border is and looks like?

You say "bingo", of course blaming the evil Dems, but I fail to see how we have ever had a "secure border" in the way that many of you seem to think it should be. 

[KSB2424 3,173]

2 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Maybe you guys need to define what is expected of a "secure border" and what you are basing it on?   What is your definition of what a secure border is and looks like?

You say "bingo", of course blaming the evil Dems, but I fail to see how we have ever had a "secure border" in the way that many of you seem to think it should be. 

Make it Priority #1 instead of an afterthought.  Walls, deterrents, border patrol presence, drones, whatever.... but spend the money and make it a top priority. 

When you create a project plan you have toll gates, what is done first, then second and so on.  Securing the border is first because without doing that the rest is more difficult and doesn't work as well.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

11 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Maybe you guys need to define what is expected of a "secure border" and what you are basing it on?   What is your definition of what a secure border is and looks like?

You say "bingo", of course blaming the evil Dems, but I fail to see how we have ever had a "secure border" in the way that many of you seem to think it should be. 

Do you think they are even trying at this point? Come on. Secure doesn’t mean perfect. Perfect will never happen. And you can’t lure them here with the social safety net meant for Americans. And they have to know the are going back if caught. They aren’t going to lay out the money and make the trek here if they think they will have to go back. The cartels that traffick them don’t have a money back guarantee.  Take away the incentive. And maybe if the aid we gave to those countries wasn’t wasted and stolen things might improve where they are. Instead their hard workers leave and come here.  I don’t see how that benefits their home countries. Maybe we should manufacture things in our own hemisphere instead of China. I’m sure Guatemalans can assemble an  iPhone. 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

24 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Bingo.  You first secure the border then you figure out the best immigration policies for those legally wanting to come to America.  It's like a Castle, there should be a mote around the whole thing for security but a huge bridge and large door in front for those wanting to come legally and peacefully.  

OK, so roughly half of those here illegally came here legally through visas and whatnot? 

People are going to find ways into this country no matter the level of border security, and MAGAtards would whine about the taxes they'd have to pay to make the border an impenetrable fortress. 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Did someone mention an impenetrable fortress? I didn’t. Rusty also thinks you could walk up to a wall with a shovel and start digging and then get thousands of people through. Like in a cartoon. 

[BuckSwope 654]

14 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Make it Priority #1 instead of an afterthought.  Walls, deterrents, border patrol presence, drones, whatever.... but spend the money and make it a top priority. 

When you create a project plan you have toll gates, what is done first, then second and so on.  Securing the border is first because without doing that the rest is more difficult and doesn't work as well.  

You still didn't define what a secure border is, you just said it should be the priority.   

[BuckSwope 654]

19 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

OK, so roughly half of those here illegally came here legally through visas and whatnot? 

People are going to find ways into this country no matter the level of border security, and MAGAtards would whine about the taxes they'd have to pay to make the border an impenetrable fortress. 

 

This is what I don't get.  People say illegals are the problem, then talk all about the southern order, and not this fact.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

7 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

This is what I don't get.  People say illegals are the problem, then talk all about the southern order, and not this fact.  

You think it’s still half? I doubt it. And we have at least a record of those people, know where they came from and that they were somewhat vetted to get a visa in the first place. And why aren’t the ones at the southern border flying here? They would rather walk and give a coyote thousands of dollars? Or come from other continents to Mexico and then sneak in? And besides, we don’t have an accurate count of how many people snuck in. But we do know how many overstayed. That stat is bullshit. 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You think it’s still half? I doubt it. And we have at least a record of those people, know where they came from and that they were somewhat vetted to get a visa in the first place. And why aren’t the ones at the southern border flying here? They would rather walk and give a coyote thousands of dollars? Or come from other continents to Mexico and then sneak in? And besides, we don’t have an accurate count of how many people snuck in. But we do know how many overstayed. That stat is bullshit. 

This mindset is part of the problem. That stat has been proven, but the misinformation center of your brain won't allow you to accept it. Everything has to be the way you want to see it. There is the bullshit. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

1 minute ago, Pimpadeaux said:

This mindset is part of the problem. That stat has been proven, but the misinformation center of your brain won't allow you to accept it. Everything has to be the way you want to see it. There is the bullshit. 

Ok. How many people have snuck over the border in the last twenty years? That should be easy enough to prove. Prove it. Then tell us how many overstays there are. And what is the length of the overstay? 

[TBayXXXVII 2,669]

23 hours ago, Fnord said:

Seriously though, let me ask you this.  Can you show me data that says people who came here illegally, never considered the sanctuary cities or states when deciding to come here?  I'm willing to be that you don't.  Why? Because as far as I know, this data doesn't exist. How is one supposed to get inside the mind of immigrants to get an answer? The cities with the most illegal immigrants are sanctuary cities. But what does that prove? Well, if they're here to work, of course they'll go to the places that have the most opportunity and be drawn to areas that have large, thriving immigrant communities. Is it because these same cities are sanctuary cities, or because they are large metro areas? This question is chicken v. egg, without a widely accepted answer that isn't rooted in politics vs. data.  Well, lets ask the Democrat politicians who refused to put the question of "Are you legal" on the census in 2020.  This is law. The Democrats don't want you to know who the illegals are so that you can't ask them questions.  BUT, they want to make sure these people have the right to vote, without needing ID.  Why do you think that is? This does not appear to be true. Democrats cannot just wave a wand and grant illegal immigrants the ability to vote.

 

So, Republican's ending a program that was supposed to end, is a sign that they don't want to help poor American citizens?  Got it.  The Omnibus spending bill was $1.5 TRILLION.  The program for school lunches was $11B.  Democrats felt that it wasn't worth arguing about or felt that it wasn't important enough to cut $11B from somewhere else to make sure that the program continued... but it's ALL the Republican's fault, right?  Yup. Got it. Meh, more specifically Mitch McConnell's fault. From the link I provided earlier: "But earlier this week, news reports detailed how key Republicans, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, opposed extending the waivers as part of the omnibus package, arguing that the waiver was never meant to be permanent and that the $11 billion price tag to extend it for another year wasn’t palatable to Republicans concerned about the deficit increasing." This is bullsh!t politics from a group of people that were more than happy to rubberstamp gigantic deficit spending while there is a Republican POTUS, but now that a D is in office, they're back to the same tired antics of pretending to care. Been this way for decades, and their argument is ridiculous, given that deficit spending normally increases under Republican administrations, while decreasing under Democratic administrations.

 

Since you didn't respond to this last time, I'll throw it out there again.  "I'd like for you to outline why you feel they aren't a problem." I did respond. I said "I don't have a staunch position on sanctuary cities one way or another, just wanted to get your opinion on them."

 

By your line of questioning (and reluctance to add what benefits you feel a sanctuary city or state provides), that you didn't read my post to Tim's OP.  Here's the post, maybe this will help you on why we should get rid of sanctuary cities and states.

Correct, there's no data.  It's that way on purpose, and there's only party trying to prevent that information being out (again, see the bull crap they went through to keep it off the 2020 census).  The fact that the majority of undocumented living in sanctuary cities are telling you that these people know where to go.  They always knew where to go because these cities and states make it known to the world that if you are an illegal immigrant, they will let you stay.  I think that's common sense.  I don't need a study to tell me that.  Sure, there are more jobs and what not in the metro areas... you know what else they have more of?  Government assistance.  I'm not saying that they're all looking for handouts.  Most people I know coming here are good workers and productive members of society.  It's why I said initially, I have no problem with them coming here.  I don't see any reason to cut them off.  I just want it controlled.  Controlling it starts with the elimination of sanctuary cities and states because as long as that carrot stays there, there will be people to take advantage of it.  Any control of the border must start with elimination of any loopholes to allow illegal immigrants to stay here.  Also, you're wrong about illegals not being able to vote.  Democrats are already starting to allow it.

Quote

Two Vermont cities have joined the short but growing list of jurisdictions that allow residents who are not U.S. citizens to vote in local elections.

Notice, it says "joined the short but growing list".  That means there are places that are allowing it now and recognizing that there's more to come.  Also...

Quote

Lawmakers in Washington, D.C., Illinois and New York City this year are considering legislation that would offer the vote to noncitizens for local elections, such as for city council or the school board.

When this hits the big time cities like NYC and DC, more will follow... Illinois is looking to make it state-wide.  Once that happens, I can all but guarantee that you'll start seeing more states do it and it becoming an option at the federal level.  So, yes... they can just wave a magic wand and give them the right to vote.  It's called, passing a bill.  Notice how at no point in that article does it say anything about needing an ID.  That's a problem.

 

Mitch McConnell is one of the biggest d-bags in Congress.  I dislike his as much as the d-bags like Biden, Schiff, Pelosi, and Shumer on the left.  He could tell me the water is wet, and I'd still double check.  That said, even if they wanted to end it no matter what, I'm willing to bet that if Democrats were willing to cut out a good chunk of their bull crap Climate Change money, the Republican's would've kept it in.  Yet, there's still how many hundred's of billions of dollars going to causes that will have 0 impact on our livelihoods, with the exception of the elite few donor's to all political candidates?  My point is, it's not just the Republican's.  It's $11B of a $1.7T spending bill.  They could've come to an agreement.  We're talking about 0.65% of the entire bill.  Also, both sides are willing to spend when their side is in power and not willing when the other side is in power.  To say it's only Republican's, it's 100% disingenuous.  There's $132M being added to the Capitol Police budget.  I thought we were defunding the police?  Guess not.  There's $3.5B going to homeless prevention.  Yeah, what, the prior $100B wasn't enough... but the extra $3.5B will do it?  Come on.  I'm willing to bet that people on this board could come up with $11B, that we all agree on, to cut out in order keep the school lunches.  Yet, 537 of the supposed smartest people in the country, couldn't do it.  It's a Congress problem, not a Republican or Democrat problem.

 

Gotchya, wasn't sure that was your stance on sanctuary cities and states, I thought it was a statement in general.  With that being the case, have you ever heard anyone give a reason as to what benefit they bring?  I haven't heard a single one.  The only thing they say is "We're not going to help the federal government deport them".  Ok, that's fine... but what benefit do they bring?  There's never an answer.  Like I said in my very first response, sure, many work and take jobs people don't want, but the overall impact is a negative when you factor in the added costs they bring to the towns and the states along with the criminal element that sneak in with them.

[TBayXXXVII 2,669]

2 hours ago, BuckSwope said:

Thanks for the clarification.   Too often stances get swirled in with others as we talk to multiple people at the same time.   It seems your idea of what the border should look like differs from some others.   I have for sure seen the opinion of more F-it, shut it down completely.  

 

I have no interest at all in shutting it down (just the process of allowing people to cross over and stay here while they wait).  Stay outside and we'll let you in when the time comes.  The country was founded on people coming here from other countries, I see no reason to stop it.  I just want it monitored.

[TBayXXXVII 2,669]

2 hours ago, Pimpadeaux said:

OK, so roughly half of those here illegally came here legally through visas and whatnot? 

People are going to find ways into this country no matter the level of border security, and MAGAtards would whine about the taxes they'd have to pay to make the border an impenetrable fortress. 

 

 

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

This is what I don't get.  People say illegals are the problem, then talk all about the southern order, and not this fact.  

The title of the thread.... says.... border. 

[Cloaca du jour 2,157]

Wallpaper sucks!!

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Just now, Cloaca du jour said:

Wallpaper sucks!!

Ha! 

[BuckSwope 654]

33 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 

The title of the thread.... says.... border. 

LOL.  very fair.   

Eyes on the prize.  Seems like the convo goes:  border ---> we have to stop the illegals --> somebody jumping in and addressing all illegals.  

Most likely the person was talking about "illegals" in the sense of gotaways and people purposely avoiding the PoEs.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,669]

Just now, BuckSwope said:

LOL.  very fair.   

Eyes on the prize.  Seems like the convo goes:  border ---> we have to stop the illegals --> somebody jumping in and addressing all illegals.  

Most likely the person was talking about "illegals" in the sense of gotaways and people purposely avoiding the PoEs.  

Yeah, I can't speak for everyone, but I was always referring to people crossing the border. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

So if the republicans give in on amnesty, then the democrats will fund securing the border. So how will the border be secured? 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

2 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Did someone mention an impenetrable fortress? I didn’t. Rusty also thinks you could walk up to a wall with a shovel and start digging and then get thousands of people through. Like in a cartoon. 

rusty believes it is our duty to make the Ukraine / Russia border an impenetrable fortress.  but laughs at doing so with our southern border.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

7 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

rusty believes it is our duty to make the Ukraine / Russia border an impenetrable fortress.  but laughs at doing so with our southern border.

Rusty wants crowded failing schools to become more crowded and expensive  so he can get his burrito quickly. GFY 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

3 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Ok. How many people have snuck over the border in the last twenty years? That should be easy enough to prove. Prove it. Then tell us how many overstays there are. And what is the length of the overstay? 

I always do all the link work, and then you just dispute the links, no matter how credible they are.

It's a waste of time with you.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Just now, Pimpadeaux said:

I always do all the link work, and then you just dispute the links, no matter how credible they are.

It's a waste of time with you.

No. This should be easy. If the claim is that 50 pct are overstays, then a comparative analysis must have been made, and recently  for it to have any standing. So what were the numbers used for the comparison? 

[5-Points 3,765]

Militarize it. Post signs declaring tresspassing forbidden. Plant mine fields and have snipers set up and eliminate cartel lookouts and anybody trying to cross illegally. 

Deport every illegal that ever comes into contact with law enforcement. Somebody here once had the great idea of giving deportees a two country penalty. Meaning we drop them two countries south of their origin and make them walk home from there. Crime victims who come into contact with law enforcement can be dropped in their home country with instructions on how to immigrate here legally. Violent criminal illegals who are caught by law enforcement will have a leg amputated prior to deportation. Get caught here again, there goes the other leg.

Minors born here to illegals will be deported with the parents to keep families together and allowed to return when they become adults. At which time they can sponsor their families if they are able to support them financially.

We have an immigration process. You don't deserve special treatment simply because you can walk here. Get in line with the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[5-Points 3,765]

2 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So if the republicans give in on amnesty, then the democrats will fund securing the border. So how will the border be secured? 

We tried that with Reagan. He gave in on amnesty with the promise that the boarder would be secured.

Fool me once...

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

4 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

We tried that with Reagan. He gave in on amnesty with the promise that the boarder would be secured.

Fool me once...

I agree, but it’s what they are dangling. So how will it work? Should be an easy enough question for the lefty’s in here to answer. 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

48 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

No. This should be easy. If the claim is that 50 pct are overstays, then a comparative analysis must have been made, and recently  for it to have any standing. So what were the numbers used for the comparison? 

Cool, go find it and get back to us.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Just now, Pimpadeaux said:

Cool, go find it and get back to us.

You brought it up. I said it was bullshit and gave a reasonable explanation why. You have nothing.  I win.  

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You brought it up. I said it was bullshit and gave a reasonable explanation why. You have nothing.  I win.  

You bring up falsehoods and baloney all the time without backing them up with a link.

You discredit any link provided to you.

It's a waste of time. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

2 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

You bring up falsehoods and baloney all the time without backing them up with a link.

You discredit any link provided to you.

It's a waste of time. 

You want me to provide a link to something I have said is impossible to know the answer to? Ok Rusty.  Calm down and think it through. You claimed it was proven. . I claimed that isn’t possible. So prove it. Jeeez 

[5-Points 3,765]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I agree, but it’s what they are dangling. So how will it work? Should be an easy enough question for the lefty’s in here to answer. 

They don't have a clue because they haven't been told how to say it will work.  

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

25 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You want me to provide a link to something I have said is impossible to know the answer to? Ok Rusty.  Calm down and think it through. You claimed it was proven. . I claimed that isn’t possible. So prove it. Jeeez 

I found a Politico story noting that roughly half the illegals in this country came here legally and stayed.

Look it up for yourself, knucklehead.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

1 minute ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I found a Politico story noting that roughly half the illegals in this country came here legally and stayed.

Look it up for yourself, knucklehead.

And I found a New York Times article from 2019 that also roughly said that. And it was based on there being 10 million illegals in the US. If you think there are or were only 10 million illegals you’re nuts. Do you think there are only 10 million illegals in the US? You repeated something you read and didn’t do any critical thinking.  

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

And I found a New York Times article from 2019 that also roughly said that. And it was based on there being 10 million illegals in the US. If you think there are or were only 10 million illegals you’re nuts. Do you think there are only 10 million illegals in the US? You repeated something you read and didn’t do any critical thinking.  

The point being that a large percentage of illegals came here legally. I don't give a fock if it's exactly 50 percent, but feel free to get hung up on that as you do other things in the most knuckleheaded way.

Building a 100,000-foot-tall wall that goes 10 miles into the ground and manning this side of it with 1,951 miles of border agents standing shoulder to shoulder and armed with nuclear weapons isn't going to stop the immigration problem altogether.

And if even one got through, your BDS would kick into overdrive and prompt you to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[5-Points 3,765]

 

7 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

I found a Politico story noting that roughly half the illegals in this country came here legally and stayed.

 

Look it up for yourself, knucklehead.

 

Not to interject but, I will. I'm far less concerned about people who have been vetted and granted work visas overstaying their visas than I am completely unknown people sneaking in from all over the world for who knows what reason.

 

 

My wife works with a guy from Brazil whose visa is going to expire. He came here legally on a work visa and doesn't want to go back and start the process over again but he will because he wants to be legally. He's learned English. He obeys the law. 

 

Those are the immigrants we need. 

 

 

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

Trump Instituted the public charge rule that made it difficult for immigrants that used welfare to get a green card. Biden got rid of that. Why would he do that? 

[BuckSwope 654]

“This action ensures fair and humane treatment of legal immigrants and their U.S. citizen family members,” Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas said in a statement. “Consistent with America’s bedrock values, we will not penalize individuals for choosing to access the health benefits and other supplemental government services available to them.”

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,911]

5 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

“This action ensures fair and humane treatment of legal immigrants and their U.S. citizen family members,” Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas said in a statement. “Consistent with America’s bedrock values, we will not penalize individuals for choosing to access the health benefits and other supplemental government services available to them.”

 

 

And….

[5-Points 3,765]

22 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

“This action ensures fair and humane treatment of legal immigrants and their U.S. citizen family members,” Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas said in a statement. “Consistent with America’s bedrock values, we will not penalize individuals for choosing to access the health benefits and other supplemental government services available to them.”

 

 

Doesn't apply to the invasion currently underway. 

[Pimpadeaux 2,406]

1 minute ago, 5-Points said:

Doesn't apply to the invasion currently underway. 

Invasion?

[5-Points 3,765]

4 minutes ago, Pimpadeaux said:

Invasion?

What do you call it when 100's of 1,000's of people illegally cross the border of a supposedly sovereign country on a monthly basis? 

I call it an invasion.