DeSantis and his stupid laws

[RLLD 3,455]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

Cool, thanks for agreeing with me that letting private schools reject students for any reason is wrong!

Nope. Disagree. Let them be discerning, sh!tbags can always still attend public schools....

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

As far as vouchers go: 

I used to be all for them. But that was before certain religious schools in Kentucky started teaching that the Earth is 6,000 years old. I really don’t want my tax money going towards that. So I think there has to be some kind of standard. I’m not enough of an expert to determine what that would be. But if we could come up with one I have no objection. 

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

1 minute ago, RLLD said:

Nope. Disagree. Let them be discerning, sh!tbags can always still attend public schools....

Discerning, fine. Racist or bigoted? I have a problem with that. 

[RLLD 3,455]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Here in NJ, what I'm starting to see is County-wide Tech Schools as alternatives to the local schools for high school.  The County-wide Tech schools are public schools, not private.  The Tech schools are basically career geared education instead of standard, where you can actually earn college credits while in high school and practically leave high school with an Associates degree.  Funny thing is that liberals down here pushed for it... Menedez and Booker were big proponents.  Why is that funny?  Because the 3 biggest towns in my county (Cumberland), are Vineland, Bridgeton, and Millville.  They make up over 75% of the county population.  County-wide, the racial demographic is 40%+/- white, 40%+/- Hispanic 18%+/- black, and 2%+/- other.  You know what the racial demographic makeup is of those 3 local high schools?

• Vineland: 62% Hispanic, 17% black, 17% white
• Bridgeton: 77% Hispanic, 19% black, 2% white
• Millville: 25% Hispanic, 32% black, 39% white
  • To note, when you see 39% white and see that on average it's close to the county-wide number, Millville is close to the national average when it comes to the white population.  About 62% of the population for the city of Millville is white.

What's happening is that the kids who are able to test into the Tech schools are leaving the local high school behind.  The liberals down here saw that with school choice, a lot of white people were leaving their district to go to other school districts, so they thought, "hey, let's try and keep them here".  All they did was remove more white people from the local public school system.  When you click on those links, plus this one for CC Tech (the Cumberland County Tech school), note the rankings of the two schools.  Nice how CCTech is top 20%, Millville is top 30%, and the other two are bottom 50%.  To say the two are bottom 50% is probably being kind too.

This isn't an "income" thing because all of these schools are public schools, but it points directly to what @RLLD noted in his altered post, from @TimHauck.  It's a perfect example of what happens when you put education as a priority.

Agree.  I think the intent here was to pretend that disparities are driven by race instead of by behaviors.  If you are forced to accept behaviors then you might face down some "trope", right?

The simple admission that a cultural cancer exists for some elements of society seems to be just too much.  Facing down the stark truth is less palatable than fabricating some spectral reason that can never be found.....

[TimHauck 1,806]

9 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

He said it's the ones that stay out of trouble... which is what I'm seeing here.

You're referring to those people being more likely to be the ones applying for the vouchers in the first place.  And I'd agree.

The other point was referring to the schools being able to arbitrarily reject when people apply that they don't want to.

[TBayXXXVII 2,130]

28 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I'm not sure what this post has to do with what @RLLD altered my post to.  I was saying that by allowing private schools to reject whoever they want, they can ensure it's only higher income folks, in part because they will be more likely to donate even if they don't have to pay all of the tuition.  And yes, the higher income folks tend to skew white.

So yes, what you described is likely exactly what will happen where school choice is implemented.   Even though there may be grants/incentives that are targeted at low-income people, it will most likely be primarily utilized by higher income people, because the parents tend to be more involved in their kid's education, and also have more resources if for example there isn't transportation provided (not sure if that is the case in your scenario or Iowa's as far as transportation).  And for the case of Iowa if it's a set amount, it may not cover the whole tuition but could incentivize families to go to a private school since they wouldn't have to pay as much as usual.  But poor families still won't be able to afford it.

So the most likely outcome is the public schools just get worse, even if they have more money to spend on a per student basis, since school test scores are not as dependent on teacher quality as they are on the income makeup and parental involvement of the student body. 

I grew up in South Jersey.  What is the racial breakdown of Cumberland Regional HS?   That school also scores poorly as far as I can tell but from what I remember did have a higher % of white students.   But they're more often lower-income whites.   

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I was just pointing out what I see.  It's not a racial/poor thing, to me what I see is the people who focus on education as being important are the ones doing well, at CCTech for example, the racial population is 50% white and 40% Hispanic.  Sure, it's more white, but the direction of the school (again, it's a public school, so it's free), is more future/education geared.  Like prior, it's also the kids that stay out of trouble.  Focus on grades, stay out of trouble and you'll be able to go to a local public score (free), and have a better college career path that'll save you money.  No race nor economic income is necessary.

Cumberland Regional is pretty much on par in the racial demographic as the county, and yeah, it's a pretty crappy school in terms of results.  To me, this confirms what I just said.  CCTech is free.  Kids who go to Cumberland Regional are eligible to go there.  They are mostly white and lower income over there.  You'd think that if you didn't have money, one of the things you'd focus on for your kids is to get a good education as cheaply as possible.  Focusing in on school work and getting in to CCTech would get you a better education at a better quality school where you'd also have an easier time staying out of trouble.  On top of that, as I said, you can practically earn an Associates degree there.  Saving a year and half's worth of college education should be something that every parent should want.  To me, this totally a parent issue/problem... not a societal, racial, or economical one.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,709]

There are reading and writing and math standards everywhere. How’s that working out? 

[TimHauck 1,806]

3 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Nope. Disagree. Let them be discerning, sh!tbags can always still attend public schools....

WTF are you talking about?  The schools can reject prospective students for any reason, not just if they are documented to be "sh1tbags"

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I was just pointing out what I see.  It's not a racial/poor thing, to me what I see is the people who focus on education as being important are the ones doing well, at CCTech for example, the racial population is 50% white and 40% Hispanic.  Sure, it's more white, but the direction of the school (again, it's a public school, so it's free), is more future/education geared.  Like prior, it's also the kids that stay out of trouble.  Focus on grades, stay out of trouble and you'll be able to go to a local public score (free), and have a better college career path that'll save you money.  No race nor economic income is necessary.

Cumberland Regional is pretty much on par in the racial demographic as the county, and yeah, it's a pretty crappy school in terms of results.  To me, this confirms what I just said.  CCTech is free.  Kids who go to Cumberland Regional are eligible to go there.  They are mostly white and lower income over there.  You'd think that if you didn't have money, one of the things you'd focus on for your kids is to get a good education as cheaply as possible.  Focusing in on school work and getting in to CCTech would get you a better education at a better quality school where you'd also have an easier time staying out of trouble.  On top of that, as I said, you can practically earn an Associates degree there.  Saving a year and half's worth of college education should be something that every parent should want.  To me, this totally a parent issue/problem... not a societal, racial, or economical one.

To your last point, don’t you think that parental issues are largely about society, race and economics? I’d argue that it’s all intertwined. 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

13 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

So they go to the public school.  Like they do now. Why is that a concern? 

The will most likely be a loss of money to our already struggling public schools.  These schools will end up closing and the small towns will struggle.  It's already been slowly happening and I foresee this making it happen more.

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

There are reading and writing and math standards everywhere. How’s that working out? 

Not good. But is the solution to eliminate them or make them better? I say make them better. 

[RLLD 3,455]

41 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I'm not sure what this post has to do with what @RLLD altered my post to.  I was saying that by allowing private schools to reject whoever they want, they can ensure it's only higher income folks, in part because they will be more likely to donate even if they don't have to pay all of the tuition.  And yes, the higher income folks tend to skew white.

So yes, what you described is likely exactly what will happen where school choice is implemented.   Even though there may be grants/incentives that are targeted at low-income people, it will most likely be primarily utilized by higher income people, because the parents tend to be more involved in their kid's education, and also have more resources if for example there isn't transportation provided (not sure if that is the case in your scenario or Iowa's as far as transportation).  And for the case of Iowa if it's a set amount, it may not cover the whole tuition but could incentivize families to go to a private school since they wouldn't have to pay as much as usual.  But poor families still won't be able to afford it.

So the most likely outcome is the public schools just get worse, even if they have more money to spend on a per student basis, since school test scores are not as dependent on teacher quality as they are on the income makeup and parental involvement of the student body. 

I grew up in South Jersey.  What is the racial breakdown of Cumberland Regional HS?   That school also scores poorly as far as I can tell but from what I remember did have a higher % of white students.   But they're more often lower-income whites.   

This caught my eye.  Only because you seem to be attributing schools getting worse and worse to a segment of people, irrespective of money spent.  I think that is an interesting observation and one that I would tend to agree with.  Where ever you find a single parent household, for instance, you will find kids who perform lower....on average.  Further, if that single parent never finished say high school and/or is simply a dirtbag......chances are the kid will be as well. 

[RLLD 3,455]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Discerning, fine. Racist or bigoted? I have a problem with that. 

Agree completely.  I think the problem that arises is that they take the best kids, and the net result appears racist....

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

15 minutes ago, Strike said:

Why would a parent put their kid in a school that can't meet the kids needs?  Seems like you're just looking for reasons to complain.

No, these are legit reasons for concern and a lot of other Iowans share the same concerns.

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

Just now, RLLD said:

This caught my eye.  Only because you seem to be attributing schools getting worse and worse to a segment of people, irrespective of money spent.  I think that is an interesting observation and one that I would tend to agree with.  Where ever you find a single parent household, for instance, you will find kids who perform lower....on average.  Further, if that single parent never finished say high school and/or is simply a dirtbag......chances are the kid will be as well. 

There is no doubt that this is true. So how do we as a society help to make this better? 

[RLLD 3,455]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

WTF are you talking about?  The schools can reject prospective students for any reason, not just if they are documented to be "sh1tbags"

If you pay to attend, then sure, let them decide who gets in, fine by me.  I would pay to have my kids attend.....all good....

[TimHauck 1,806]

2 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I was just pointing out what I see.  It's not a racial/poor thing, to me what I see is the people who focus on education as being important are the ones doing well, at CCTech for example, the racial population is 50% white and 40% Hispanic.  Sure, it's more white, but the direction of the school (again, it's a public school, so it's free), is more future/education geared.  Like prior, it's also the kids that stay out of trouble.  Focus on grades, stay out of trouble and you'll be able to go to a local public score (free), and have a better college career path that'll save you money.  No race nor economic income is necessary.

Cumberland Regional is pretty much on par in the racial demographic as the county, and yeah, it's a pretty crappy school in terms of results.  To me, this confirms what I just said.  CCTech is free.  Kids who go to Cumberland Regional are eligible to go there.  They are mostly white and lower income over there.  You'd think that if you didn't have money, one of the things you'd focus on for your kids is to get a good education as cheaply as possible.  Focusing in on school work and getting in to CCTech would get you a better education at a better quality school where you'd also have an easier time staying out of trouble.  On top of that, as I said, you can practically earn an Associates degree there.  Saving a year and half's worth of college education should be something that every parent should want.  To me, this totally a parent issue/problem... not a societal, racial, or economical one.

You're right, but my point is the kids that stay out of trouble, get good grades, and have parents that care more about their future are more likely to be from higher income families.

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

1 minute ago, RLLD said:

Agree completely.  I think the problem that arises is that they take the best kids, and the net result appears racist....

That’s a problem. It’s not the only problem. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,709]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Not good. But is the solution to eliminate them or make them better? I say make them better. 

Make what better? The standards? How? 

[TimHauck 1,806]

Just now, RLLD said:

If you pay to attend, then sure, let them decide who gets in, fine by me.  I would pay to have my kids attend.....all good....

Wouldn't using a state-provided voucher count as "paying to attend"?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,709]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

The will most likely be a loss of money to our already struggling public schools.  These schools will end up closing and the small towns will struggle.  It's already been slowly happening and I foresee this making it happen more.

Less students should help the struggling schools that we’re always being told are overcrowded. 

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Make what better? The standards? How? 

I don’t know. I’m not an educator. 
 

 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Less students should help the struggling schools that we’re always being told are overcrowded. 

Are you talking about schools in inner cities?  I don't believe that is a problem with schools in rural America.

[RLLD 3,455]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is no doubt that this is true. So how do we as a society help to make this better? 

Thank you for asking this question.  There was a time when the lower classes were rising, notably the AA community.  Back in the 1960's people were progressing, then the government got involved and screwed it up.

Now people are incetivized to not work, to not have both parents in the home, to not continue their education.

So we need to start at the grass-roots level.  Local governments need to understand that businesses and religious entities in particular are not the enemy, nor a host on which to be a parasite.  Incentivize these two to be more engaged with people in economically distressed areas....tax breaks for hiring within certain areas.  Get the churches involved as well.  Free child care and early education. 

Get the parents at work, and the kids in early development programs.  Incentivize two-parents homes as well, through subsizies and then tax breaks.  The money spent/lost will pay itself back in spades as support programs are needed less and less.  Reward people for community activism.

AND......hire more police, build more jails, put the criminals away....period.... no matter what they look like.  Get the communities cleaner. 

It has to start in the homes, with the parents and kids....and over time we can make strides.   END THE FALSE SYSTEMIC RACISM NARRATIVE

[RLLD 3,455]

6 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Wouldn't using a state-provided voucher count as "paying to attend"?

Sure.  Now, if your kid performs well....no suspensions or behavioral issues that is THE KEY. The problem isnt that the kids are not smart, the problem is that they sare sh!tbags.....and sh!tbags can go fock themselves....

[TheNewGirl 1,039]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I worry about kids with special needs.  Private schools usually don't offer services for students with special needs.  Every time I read into the voucher program I see more negatives than positives.

What?!

Yes they do. they have to follow an IEP if there is one on file.

I am starting to believe you don't know much about private schools. 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

2 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

What?!

Yes they do. they have to follow an IEP if there is one on file.

I am starting to believe you don't know much about private schools. 

I know that I see kids go to the public school because the private school is unable to provide what's needed.

[TheNewGirl 1,039]

18 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Less students should help the struggling schools that we’re always being told are overcrowded. 

Not necessarily, the more students the more money the school or school district gets. Sure, less students means less overcrowding, but they still won't get ahead financially to make the school better, get new supplies, computers, etc. 

 

[TheNewGirl 1,039]

Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

I know that I see kids go to the public school because the private school is unable to provide what's needed.

That's a terrible private school if they don't have to enforce an IEP. 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

Just now, TheNewGirl said:

That's a terrible private school if they don't have to enforce an IEP. 

I'll have to ask my wife about it.  She knows a lot more about it than I do.

[The Real timschochet 2,991]

18 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Thank you for asking this question.  There was a time when the lower classes were rising, notably the AA community.  Back in the 1960's people were progressing, then the government got involved and screwed it up.

Now people are incetivized to not work, to not have both parents in the home, to not continue their education.

So we need to start at the grass-roots level.  Local governments need to understand that businesses and religious entities in particular are not the enemy, nor a host on which to be a parasite.  Incentivize these two to be more engaged with people in economically distressed areas....tax breaks for hiring within certain areas.  Get the churches involved as well.  Free child care and early education. 

Get the parents at work, and the kids in early development programs.  Incentivize two-parents homes as well, through subsizies and then tax breaks.  The money spent/lost will pay itself back in spades as support programs are needed less and less.  Reward people for community activism.

AND......hire more police, build more jails, put the criminals away....period.... no matter what they look like.  Get the communities cleaner. 

It has to start in the homes, with the parents and kids....and over time we can make strides.   END THE FALSE SYSTEMIC RACISM NARRATIVE

I like a lot of your ideas. But I don’t think the systemic racism narrative is false. And I worry about more jails- we already incarcerate more people than any other western society. 

[TimHauck 1,806]

3 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Sure.  Now, if your kid performs well....no suspensions or behavioral issues that is THE KEY. The problem isnt that the kids are not smart, the problem is that they sare sh!tbags.....and sh!tbags can go fock themselves....

So you do agree that private schools shouldn't be able to reject kids for any reason then, got it.

[RLLD 3,455]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I like a lot of your ideas. But I don’t think the systemic racism narrative is false. And I worry about more jails- we already incarcerate more people than any other western society. 

Incarceration is fine, we have allowed people to become bad....and that also has to be dealt with.  Prisons are not the answer, they are a help for now.  Even those in prison need to be helped, not dumped in and forgotten about. We waste enough money elsewhere, that could be better spend on dirtbag prevention and correction. 

[RLLD 3,455]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

So you do agree that private schools shouldn't be able to reject kids for any reason then, got it.

They can use what ever reasoning they want.  Academic performance included. And none of this "diversity" outcomes as well.  Merit....period....

[TimHauck 1,806]

1 minute ago, RLLD said:

They can use what ever reasoning they want.  Academic performance included. And none of this "diversity" outcomes as well.  Merit....period....

You don't think there should be any standards for why a kid could be rejected?

[RLLD 3,455]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

You don't think there should be any standards for why a kid could be rejected?

Behavioral and academic....if they do not need the standard, they do not attend...if they fall short of the standard they are not allowed back....hold on...I just described college.....how about that, prepping kids for college....

[TimHauck 1,806]

3 minutes ago, RLLD said:

Behavioral and academic....if they do not need the standard, they do not attend...if they fall short of the standard they are not allowed back....hold on...I just described college.....how about that, prepping kids for college....

OK, so you agree with me, cool.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,709]

34 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Are you talking about schools in inner cities?  I don't believe that is a problem with schools in rural America.

Then why do people want to leave them? 

[TimHauck 1,806]

39 minutes ago, RLLD said:

This caught my eye.  Only because you seem to be attributing schools getting worse and worse to a segment of people, irrespective of money spent.  I think that is an interesting observation and one that I would tend to agree with.  Where ever you find a single parent household, for instance, you will find kids who perform lower....on average.  Further, if that single parent never finished say high school and/or is simply a dirtbag......chances are the kid will be as well. 

Yes, I believe the biggest factor in kids' school performance is the environment outside of the school, so to really solve the problem you need to improve that moreso than improving the school. Here was a post I made when there was a similar discussion in a different thread:

 

 

 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Then why do people want to leave them? 

Why do people want to leave small towns?