Bill Belichick is a Facade. Not a good coach!

[justforbeer 39]

Just feel like Ranting as I heard it again today.

Bill is the greatest nfl coach ever.

Nope, he was only good because he had the greatest QB ever.

First 5 years with Cleveland…..1 winning season.  He was bad.

First year in NE, 5-11….No Brady.

Then Brady wins the SB 6 TIMES.  Leaves and NE has been a .500 team since. For 3 years!

Brady leaves and wins a SB with Tampa which confirms it all.

The Patriot way and Bill B is a Facade. End of rant!

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Rhamondre Stevenson owner

[Showboat 145]

Not a good coach is going a bit far.  A head coach probably gets a bit too much credit for winning, but bad coaches just don't have their team prepared to play and set the wrong tone for their team for whatever reason (Hackett with the Broncos last year, Meyer with the Jags, etc.)  A vast majority of coaches at the NFL level are "good" coaches - some are better suited as coordinators/position coaches (Norv Turner was a good example).  At the end of the day, a good coach will have his team ready to play and be competitive even if their team is less talented.  BB generally does that.

[GobbleDog 816]

Perhaps "not a genius coach", but "not a good coach" ?  So he wins 6 Superbowls, but gets no credit because Brady was there? Ridiculous.

This ain't the NBA where one superstar can guarantee titles. 11 on offense, 11 on defense, special teams, back-ups, coordinators, trainers, scouts...  football is the ultimate team sport. I guess a coach could get lucky once, maybe twice...  six titles.?. That ain't luck and it ain't all because of one superstar.

[Ray_T 591]

23 minutes ago, GobbleDog said:

Perhaps "not a genius coach", but "not a good coach" ?  So he wins 6 Superbowls, but gets no credit because Brady was there? Ridiculous.

This ain't the NBA where one superstar can guarantee titles. 11 on offense, 11 on defense, special teams, back-ups, coordinators, trainers, scouts...  football is the ultimate team sport. I guess a coach could get lucky once, maybe twice...  six titles.?. That ain't luck and it ain't all because of one superstar.

agreed.  lots of coaches have had fantastic QB's and not won the superbowl. 

even if all the talent is there, you still have to call the right play in the right situation to get the job done.  its not exactly easy. 

I dont love Belichek, I dont even like him, but I do respect what hes been able to accomplish.

[weepaws 2,460]

I really want to buy stock into those orange cones that they use for construction.  

 

[GobbleDog 816]

One thing about Brady, he took paycuts (even in Tampa). Made it a little easier, than being the coach of say... Aaron Rodgers who demanded max deals in Green Bay. Then complained when they couldn't afford Devante Adams and other players.

Mahomes recently took a cut too.

[League Champion 1,593]

He certainly can't draft, especially at WR 

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

10 hours ago, GobbleDog said:

One thing about Brady, he took paycuts (even in Tampa). Made it a little easier, than being the coach of say... Aaron Rodgers who demanded max deals in Green Bay. Then complained when they couldn't afford Devante Adams and other players.

Mahomes recently took a cut too.

Agreed.... but Mahomes didn't take a pay cut.  He's just re-working a current deal allowing the Chief's to kick the can down the road.  In the original deal he signed, he had a $60M+ year that was set to hit in 2025, but now that's going to hit in 2027.  He's still going to make the money he signed for, it's just the cap hit that's changing.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

He’s masterful at defense, but pretty terrible at offense sans Brady

[Ray_T 591]

2 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

He’s masterful at defense, but pretty terrible at offense sans Brady

he was always smart enough to hire a good Offensive Co-Ordinator.   the man knows his strengths.  

[Showboat 145]

13 minutes ago, Ray_T said:

he was always smart enough to hire a good Offensive Co-Ordinator.   the man knows his strengths.  

Well, except when he went with the Judge/Patricia cluster-F last season.

[shovelheadt 62]

Good coach, terrible personnel man.

[Showboat 145]

21 minutes ago, shovelheadt said:

Good coach, terrible personnel man.

Again, terrible might be going a bit far.  He has certainly had his share of misses, but there have been some brilliant personnel moves like bringing in Wes Welker and making the "slot machine" a thing - maybe score double points for this one since he was able to poach Welker from the Dolphins where he was under/mis-utilized.. 

[IGotWorms 3,315]

51 minutes ago, shovelheadt said:

Good coach, terrible personnel man.

Had some bad drafts in the end of the 2010s but this is mostly incorrect. People forget the masterful moves he made in free agency and through the draft

[Ray_T 591]

12 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

Had some bad drafts in the end of the 2010s but this is mostly incorrect. People forget the masterful moves he made in free agency and through the draft

honestly what made him great was not any of that stuff.

New England and Seattle for a good chunk of the Belicheck and pete Carroll era  led the league in undrafted free agents in their starting lineup.  These are the nobodys rejected by the rest of the NFL who the coach worked with, trained and developed into players.

to me, this is the most impressive features of these coaches.

and to me this is a different skillset than drafting.   this is taking a player and developing him.

bringing in Welker and Randy moss, thats actually Belichek the GM not Belichek the coach.     sure as a coach he got the best out of them while they were there.   but bringing them in is actually a gm move.   so you shouldnt mix the two up.

[GobbleDog 816]

9 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Agreed.... but Mahomes didn't take a pay cut.  He's just re-working a current deal allowing the Chief's to kick the can down the road.

Unless all the money they kicked-down-the-road is guaranteed, it's a pay cut in the NFL.

[justforbeer 39]

15 hours ago, Ray_T said:

honestly what made him great was not any of that stuff.

New England and Seattle for a good chunk of the Belicheck and pete Carroll era  led the league in undrafted free agents in their starting lineup.  These are the nobodys rejected by the rest of the NFL who the coach worked with, trained and developed into players.

to me, this is the most impressive features of these coaches.

and to me this is a different skillset than drafting.   this is taking a player and developing him.

bringing in Welker and Randy moss, thats actually Belichek the GM not Belichek the coach.     sure as a coach he got the best out of them while they were there.   but bringing them in is actually a gm move.   so you shouldnt mix the two up.

Uh, sorry but Moss success was BRADY, SO WAS welker’s, Troy B, Branch, etc etc.

[justforbeer 39]

17 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

He’s masterful at defense, but pretty terrible at offense sans Brady

In actuality, he’s a good defensive coach, but a terrible head coach.

[justforbeer 39]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:37 PM, Ray_T said:

agreed.  lots of coaches have had fantastic QB's and not won the superbowl. 

even if all the talent is there, you still have to call the right play in the right situation to get the job done.  its not exactly easy. 

I dont love Belichek, I dont even like him, but I do respect what hes been able to accomplish.

He didn’t accomplish it. BRADY did.

[justforbeer 39]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:05 PM, Showboat said:

Not a good coach is going a bit far.  A head coach probably gets a bit too much credit for winning, but bad coaches just don't have their team prepared to play and set the wrong tone for their team for whatever reason (Hackett with the Broncos last year, Meyer with the Jags, etc.)  A vast majority of coaches at the NFL level are "good" coaches - some are better suited as coordinators/position coaches (Norv Turner was a good example).  At the end of the day, a good coach will have his team ready to play and be competitive even if their team is less talented.  BB generally does that.

Take Brady out of the picture and he is a 500 coach. That’s the facts.

[polecatt 403]

This argument is always ridiculous.

No coach really wins much without HOF talent. Sure you can probably find an exception here or there where a coach does a superb job and leads a mediocre team to greatness, but it's few and far between.

All the great coaches, who won multiple rings, led dynasties, etc. had great talent on the teams they coached. You could say the same thing about Phil Jackson in the NBA. When he had Michael Jordan, Shaquille O"Neal, and Kobe Bryant, he was a great coach! When he was on the Knicks, not so much...

That doesn't take away from them being a great coach. It takes great players to win. There's been plenty of coaches with great talent who still didn't win. That's a bad coach, not a coach who wins with talent.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

15 hours ago, GobbleDog said:

Unless all the money they kicked-down-the-road is guaranteed, it's a pay cut in the NFL.

That's exactly what happens.  It turns non-guaranteed money into guaranteed money down the road.  What they do is take base pay (which isn't guaranteed), and turn most of it into bonus money (guaranteed), so they can spread it out over more years to free up cap space in the current year.  Let's say he had 5 years left on his deal and this year his base pay was $35M.  They kick the can down the road by taking $30M of non-guaranteed money (because base pay isn't guaranteed), and giving it to him in bonus money, and leaving it as $5M in base pay.  So, he's still getting all $35M of his money... he's not taking less.  But, what happens is now that $30M gets spread out over the 5 years, giving each year and extra $6M of cap hit.  So, instead of this year being a $35M cap hit, it's only $11M ($5M base pay + $6M bonus from restructure), and that's how they save $24M for this year.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

22 minutes ago, polecatt said:

This argument is always ridiculous.

No coach really wins much without HOF talent. Sure you can probably find an exception here or there where a coach does a superb job and leads a mediocre team to greatness, but it's few and far between.

All the great coaches, who won multiple rings, led dynasties, etc. had great talent on the teams they coached. You could say the same thing about Phil Jackson in the NBA. When he had Michael Jordan, Shaquille O"Neal, and Kobe Bryant, he was a great coach! When he was on the Knicks, not so much...

That doesn't take away from them being a great coach. It takes great players to win. There's been plenty of coaches with great talent who still didn't win. That's a bad coach, not a coach who wins with talent.

Yup.

But I will make the caveat that when people ask "Who was more responsible for the Patriots... Belichick or Brady", the answer is Brady.  Just like the answer was Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe.  That doesn't mean their coaches were overrated though, because the teams still won.  As you said, other coaches have good and great players and never win.

[Showboat 145]

30 minutes ago, justforbeer said:

Take Brady out of the picture and he is a 500 coach. That’s the facts.

He did do a bit better than .500 the year Brady was injured (11-5 as I recall).

[Ray_T 591]

1 hour ago, justforbeer said:

He didn’t accomplish it. BRADY did.

its a team game.

no question he had the talent on offense, but he also put a very good defense on the field.    if the defense sucked Some of those superbowls would not have happened.

at the very least, you need to give him credit for not messing it up.

but remember Brady joined the team and was a backup before he became a starter.  Do you think he developed as a player without help from coaches?  They developed him.   I would argue that there are not many starting QB's in the nfl that didnt need to be developed further when they first entered the league.

every QB drafted this year has taken their lumps in exhibition and they are being developed by their coaches to become a good QB.   maybe a great QB.

people dont realize how much player development matters in this sport.    A good prospect drafted into a bad organization that doesnt do a good job of developing talent usually ends up being a mediocre player.   at the very least they rarely meet their full potential.

Brady was a good but not great QB when he won his first superbowl.  the star of that show was the defense.    But Brady continued to grow, they brought in Randy moss and Bradys pass stats exploded.

Brady won his first superbowl in 2002, then again in 2004 and 2005.

his pass stats were good but not great at the time.   he was throwing for 3600 yards  at a time when the top QB's were throwing for over 4000 yards.  

Bradys first real big statistical season was in 2007 when Moss joined the team.   prior to that, his best pass season was 4100 yards in 2005 when most of his seasons he threw for around 3600-3700 yards. 

After that time Brady was a top QB but prior to that point he was simply an above average starter playing on a very good team.   They already had 3 superbowls before Brady really had his coming out party.   

Dont get me wrong, I like brady more than I like Belicheck, but it was the team that won those superbowls.   you could argue it became the Brady show after 2007 when Bradys stats became elite.  but up until then it was very much a team effort.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

10 hours ago, Ray_T said:

its a team game.

no question he had the talent on offense, but he also put a very good defense on the field.    if the defense sucked Some of those superbowls would not have happened.

at the very least, you need to give him credit for not messing it up.

but remember Brady joined the team and was a backup before he became a starter.  Do you think he developed as a player without help from coaches?  They developed him.   I would argue that there are not many starting QB's in the nfl that didnt need to be developed further when they first entered the league.

every QB drafted this year has taken their lumps in exhibition and they are being developed by their coaches to become a good QB.   maybe a great QB.

people dont realize how much player development matters in this sport.    A good prospect drafted into a bad organization that doesnt do a good job of developing talent usually ends up being a mediocre player.   at the very least they rarely meet their full potential.

Brady was a good but not great QB when he won his first superbowl.  the star of that show was the defense.    But Brady continued to grow, they brought in Randy moss and Bradys pass stats exploded.

Brady won his first superbowl in 2002, then again in 2004 and 2005.

his pass stats were good but not great at the time.   he was throwing for 3600 yards  at a time when the top QB's were throwing for over 4000 yards.  

Bradys first real big statistical season was in 2007 when Moss joined the team.   prior to that, his best pass season was 4100 yards in 2005 when most of his seasons he threw for around 3600-3700 yards. 

After that time Brady was a top QB but prior to that point he was simply an above average starter playing on a very good team.   They already had 3 superbowls before Brady really had his coming out party.   

Dont get me wrong, I like brady more than I like Belicheck, but it was the team that won those superbowls.   you could argue it became the Brady show after 2007 when Bradys stats became elite.  but up until then it was very much a team effort.

The thing about Brady was he could always get you the play when you needed it. His whole career.

But yeah, 01-04 was the team more than Brady.

[justforbeer 39]

I just think he is way overrated.

 

[DaBeerz 88]

I mean, this is from a bills fan, this is a ridiculous take.  

Dude schooled us in a game where he had Mac Jones pass what like 5 times?  

Yeah he's had some coaching gaffes, and losing brady means he's having to work with what he's got but to say BB isn't a HOF coach is ludicrous. 

[Ray_T 591]

2 minutes ago, DaBeerz said:

I mean, this is from a bills fan, this is a ridiculous take.  

Dude schooled us in a game where he had Mac Jones pass what like 5 times?  

Yeah he's had some coaching gaffes, and losing brady means he's having to work with what he's got but to say BB isn't a HOF coach is ludicrous. 

well, regardless of the reason, he coached a large number of superbowl winning teams.  there is no way hes not getting into the HOF.

I dont love the guy.  dont even like him.  but as I've said before I have to respect what hes been able to accomplish.

 

[DaBeerz 88]

1 minute ago, Ray_T said:

well, regardless of the reason, he coached a large number of superbowl winning teams.  there is no way hes not getting into the HOF.

I dont love the guy.  dont even like him.  but as I've said before I have to respect what hes been able to accomplish.

 

I hate him but i do respect the skullduggery. 

Dude has outcoached many people and salvaged many games with some halftime adjustments.  

I mean if we want to debate Brady or BB sure, but I think one helped the other, and likely wouldn't have had half the success they did if they weren't together.

[justforbeer 39]

Hmmm.  Seems like you’re all making the argument for me. He’s a great defensive coach but he is a horrible offensive coach.
Makes him at .500 guy unless he has Tom Brady as his quarterback.  
 

[DaBeerz 88]

35 minutes ago, justforbeer said:

Hmmm.  Seems like you’re all making the argument for me. He’s a great defensive coach but he is a horrible offensive coach.
Makes him at .500 guy unless he has Tom Brady as his quarterback.  
 

You could say this about any coach who won multiple superbowls, well if he didn't have a certain player, he' sucks, it's a spurious argument IMO. 

By the same logic I could say stuff like:

If Jimmy Jones didn't have the trifecta of Aikman/Irvin/Smith he sucks

If Bill Walsh didn't have Montana/rice he sucks

Reid, without Mahomes, he sucks. 

We could go down the list and do this for every multi-superbowl-winning coach there ever was. That doesn't mean they're a bad coach. 

I mean, yeah you need to be coaching top talent to win the big dance, no big surprise there...

Now if you wanna debate was BB ever outcoached in a Superbowl?  Damn rights he was, twice by Coughlin and once by Pederson, but that's a different conversation. 
 

[GobbleDog 816]

2 minutes ago, DaBeerz said:

Reid, without Mahomes, he sucks.

I actually think it's the other way around with Reid  - not that Mahomes sucks. 

Reid is the quarterback whisperer. Turned McNabb into a legit NFL qb contending for SuperBowls every year.

[DaBeerz 88]

23 hours ago, GobbleDog said:

I actually think it's the other way around with Reid  - not that Mahomes sucks. 

Reid is the quarterback whisperer. Turned McNabb into a legit NFL qb contending for SuperBowls every year.

Reid definitely got McNabb to perform at his best. Alex Smith too.  He has a way with QBs for sure. 

I think my main issues with Reid were clock management and late-game adjustments but he seems to have improved in those areas as well. He comes across to me as a coach players like to play for not so much of a hardass coach as others are. 

I love Reid myself, always have liked him. 

[GobbleDog 816]

1 minute ago, DaBeerz said:

I love Reid myself, always have liked him. 

Me too. Reid led the Eagles to 4 NFC title games and a Superbowl.... and then they fired him. I didn't like watching the Eagles win a title after that. The football gods should've punished them for the next century. But he did pretty well without them. 

My Dolphins haven't won a playoff game since 2000. Lead my Dolphins to 4 AFC title games and that coach is welcome to stay for the next 20 winless years. 

[Showboat 145]

Whenever Andy Reid is mentioned, I always remember a broadcast several years ago where they showed a picture of when Reid was a kid participating in a punt-pass-kick contest.  He was literally twice as big as all the other kids in the picture - it was hilarious.

[DaBeerz 88]

55 minutes ago, GobbleDog said:

Me too. Reid led the Eagles to 4 NFC title games and a Superbowl.... and then they fired him. I didn't like watching the Eagles win a title after that. The football gods should've punished them for the next century. But he did pretty well without them. 

My Dolphins haven't won a playoff game since 2000. Lead my Dolphins to 4 AFC title games and that coach is welcome to stay for the next 20 winless years. 

I think he was fired as a result of some holdover resentments over a few things. 

McNabb trade to a division rival for a 2nd round and a later-round pick was puzzling. People felt McNabb should have netted a lot more value and Reid talked about "doing right by Donavan" and was accused of putting a player's needs over the team. i guess now the trade looked like it's pretty good value but at the time holy F people were pissed. 

Also some holdover resentment over how the whole T.O situation was handled, they felt he should have been more on top of that, and the superbowl loss. 

I don't think he deserved to be fired, but it's worked out to his benefit in KC so all good. 

[Ray_T 591]

1 hour ago, DaBeerz said:

I don't think he deserved to be fired, but it's worked out to his benefit in KC so all good.

was he fired, or was it a case where they never renewed his contract.   I heard the owner wanted him to stay, but his son had recently committed suicide so he wanted to be away from the city where all the memories were.

maybe I'm wrong about this it was a long time ago and my memory isnt clear on how this shook out.

[justforbeer 39]

Losing season for the pats for sure……Coach fired?