Discussion about rape and the movie The Accused

[DonS 3,096]

19 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

Agreed. She’s too far left and makes a very convenient villain for the right. Even when they twist her words (like here) it still works because she’s too much of an ideologue 

You won't like this opinion piece because of the source, but take note of the embedded tweets from several people on the left condemning what she said.  I guess these folks on the left are just "twisting her words" too? 

https://mynorthwest.com/3941634/rantz-rep-jayapal-dismisses-hamas-rape-charges-vilify-israel-cnn/

Quote

 

Jayapal ripped for her CNN response

Voices on both sides of the aisle took to X to criticize Jayapal for dismissing Hamas rapes against Israeli women.

 

Liberal analyst and Bustle head of research Jessica Tarlov was direct. She posted a screenshot of the interview and wrote: “This is beyond f***** up. Every single one of these Democratic primaries of the ‘progressives’ is going to be justified.”

 

Similarly, CNN medical analyst Jonathan Reiner called attention to the comment that “we have to be balanced” in our condemnation of rape.

 

A former writer for The View, Daniella Greenbaum Davis, called the comments “depraved,” while Democratic Majority for Israel’s account posted, “Really? Balance in condemning mass rape as a weapon?”

 

Never Trumper and go-to conservative basher Joe Walsh weighed in, too, saying: “Jayapal had neither the decency, fairness, or courage to unequivocally  condemn what Hamas did. She had to say ‘but.'”

[IGotWorms 3,430]

32 minutes ago, DonS said:

You won't like this opinion piece because of the source, but take note of the embedded tweets from several people on the left condemning what she said.  I guess these folks on the left are just "twisting her words" too? 

https://mynorthwest.com/3941634/rantz-rep-jayapal-dismisses-hamas-rape-charges-vilify-israel-cnn/

That’s fine and I understand what they’re saying. But the bottom line to her, and at this point I agree, is that Israel needs to cease indiscriminately killing civilians and trying to raise a city of two million people. Everything Hamas did and continues to do is horrible but the Israeli response is killing tens of thousands of innocent women and children and may be tantamount to genocide.

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:55 AM, peenie said:

 

Based on your upbringing, do you believe the way rape was defined has changed since you were young? For those that remember the crime, some people believed the men were innocent because she enticed them or that her being in a bar alone implied she was deserving of the rape.  I think the definition of rape has changed slightly, but seems to include "sexual assault" in its meaning. Being sexually assaulted does not mean that a rape occurred. Could mean someone touched you in spot you didn't want them to, etc. I think the meaning maybe more broad than it was. 

I am old enough to remember being afraid for any girl who was drunk and went off with a boy. I was afraid she might get raped by him or him and his friends. I think men were not taught, like they are today, that taking advantage of a drunk girl was wrong. I recall boys laughing about “pulling a train on a girl”. Girls who were coerced or forced into having sex with more than one boy at a time, back in my day, told no one and faulted herself. (Luckily, I was not a victim of that sort of rape.) Men were not taught that sex with a drunk girl was bad back then, even when I was growing up and dating. I was probably buzzed/drunk a few times when I had sex with someone when I really didn't want to, however I think women have also been taught to say NO more and MEAN it. 

Today, thank goodness, boys and girls are taught that NO means NO and you can’t consent to sex if you are under the influence or under age. Yes and no. We still see men/boys that take advantage of women/girls who've been drinking (that kid that raped Chanel Miller). This is still around, despite "teaching" and all of that. 

However, rape, when I was very young, was something that happened by a stranger not your boyfriend or husband or friend. It was a severely violent act. Furthermore, if you as a girl or woman were at a man’s house or room alone and you didn’t scream bloody murder then it wasn’t seen as being clear that you didn’t want to have sex or lead the man or men to believe that you wanted the sexual act to occur.  I agree with this. Rape wasn't done by someone that you knew; or even like a husband. Yes, husbands can rape wives. I was very scared of being raped, so I didn't drink or party when I was younger. Because that meant they could take advantage of you. This kind of went out the window as I got older, started partying more and like I said earlier, probably got physical and had sex with men that I really didn't want to, but felt like if I said no, then he'd be in pain, and wouldn't like me anymore. But that's also because of the messages that women received (at least I did). 

For you older guys, do you remember having to unlearn certain behaviors or ways of thinking about what rape is or how and when to make sexual advances towards women?  Not an older guy, but I do have a 21 year old son. We've explained to him for YEARS that even if he and someone seconds away from having sex and she says no, he needs to stop. I've also advised that he not have sex with anyone who'd been drinking or on drugs. Even if they claim to be sober, etc. I have a close friend whose son went through HELL when he broke up with a GF and she claimed assault/rape. It never happened, but she claimed she was under the influence, or he pressured her etc. Sadly, I think some younger men are just plain frightened of trying to have relationships with women...partially because of the #metoo and 'believe all women' movements. There are some instances when these women can say ANYTHING, or say it happened 20 years ago, and then the man's life is all but destroyed. 
 

See bolded. 

[peenie 1,703]

46 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

See bolded. 

Thanks  

[supermike80 1,339]

I'm not sure I understand this topic, or Peenie's question.

Are you asking me as an "older man" if I thought rape was OK growing up?  Cause, no.  It isn't, wasn't and never has been

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

6 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I'm not sure I understand this topic, or Peenie's question.

Are you asking me as an "older man" if I thought rape was OK growing up?  Cause, no.  It isn't, wasn't and never has been

Not if it was okay, but just if the view of what rape is has changed. 

And, not to be argumentative, but there was a point in time and probably still in some areas, where rape WAS and is still  indeed okay. 

[League Champion 1,593]

2 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

And, not to be argumentative, but there was a point in time and probably still in some areas, where rape WAS and is still  indeed okay. 

Perhaps quite the opposite. Penalties for rape were much stiffer back then. Now they're out on parole after a few months. 

[supermike80 1,339]

7 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

Not if it was okay, but just if the view of what rape is has changed. 

And, not to be argumentative, but there was a point in time and probably still in some areas, where rape WAS and is still  indeed okay. 

Believed to be ok maybe..by idiots.   And I know ypu're not being argumentative.   Guess it's how you are raised.  I remember zero conversations with my father about rape, or sexual assault etc.  You just learned these things were not OK.  Ever

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

5 minutes ago, League Champion said:

Perhaps quite the opposite. Penalties for rape were much stiffer back then. Now they're out on parole after a few months. 

Possible. 

However, there are still thousands of rape kits that have yet to be processed, so that kind of tells you in rank in which this crime falls in terms of "solving." 

And criminals are out after a few months regardless of the crime they've committed IMO. Not really specific to rape. 

[edjr 5,717]

make a thread about the Duke Lacrosse kids having their lives ruined and then delete it

[peenie 1,703]

31 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I'm not sure I understand this topic, or Peenie's question.

Are you asking me as an "older man" if I thought rape was OK growing up?  Cause, no.  It isn't, wasn't and never has been

I think, I want you guys from my generation to think back on how some of the sexual behaviors of the time that were considered normal are now considered rape. Please don’t think I’m asking you to admit to participating in any act but just to compare and contrast the views of today and yesterday. Please don’t pretend that it was the same then as now. 

[supermike80 1,339]

4 minutes ago, peenie said:

I think, I want you guys from my generation to think back on how some of the sexual behaviors of the time that were considered normal are now considered rape. Please don’t think I’m asking you to admit to participating in any act but just to compare and contrast the views of today and yesterday. Please don’t pretend that it was the same then as now. 

I don't know.  I mean I knew, then as I do now.  You don't "get with" a drunk girl.  You don't force yourself on her...ever.   So for me, yeah it was the same.  I never knew a time where myself, or any of my guy friends, felt differently.    I'm struggling to understand where you're going with this.

[Reality 2,711]

Just now, supermike80 said:

I don't know.  I mean I knew, then as I do now.  You don't "get with" a drunk girl.  You don't force yourself on her...ever.   So for me, yeah it was the same.  I never knew a time where myself, or any of my guy friends, felt differently.    I'm struggling to understand where you're going with this.

Agreed.

[peenie 1,703]

Skip to 3 minutes:

This wasn’t shocking or irregular. 

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

5 minutes ago, peenie said:

I think, I want you guys from my generation to think back on how some of the sexual behaviors of the time that were considered normal are now considered rape. Please don’t think I’m asking you to admit to participating in any act but just to compare and contrast the views of today and yesterday. Please don’t pretend that it was the same then as now. 

I think the definition of rape has been broadened, but I also think that some people scream rape if they are touched inappropriately. 

We also have moved toward pushing consent, and broadened that to include things like, Is it okay if I hug you? To irrational parents saying that their children need to consent to diaper changes. 

 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 2,715]

10 minutes ago, peenie said:

I think, I want you guys from my generation to think back on how some of the sexual behaviors of the time that were considered normal are now considered rape. Please don’t think I’m asking you to admit to participating in any act but just to compare and contrast the views of today and yesterday. Please don’t pretend that it was the same then as now. 

I grew up in the 70's and 80's and I can tell you with 100% certainty that rape was never okay back then.  Heck, my parents never even talked to me about it and I always knew rape was bad.  And I never knew anyone I grew up with thinking rape was okay.

So, yeah, I think you're making an argument that all but the most depraved people would fit.  For example, people like those who are supporting or making excuses for Hamas.  People like Jayapal, The Squad and a sizable portion of the Democrat Party.   Basically, the "rape is okay as long as it happens to Jews" club.

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

Just now, peenie said:

Skip to 3 minutes:

This wasn’t shocking or irregular. 

Farmer Ted raped the prom queen in this movie. She was completely drunk, can't remember it the next day, etc. 

I am not about to make excuses for the 80s, but if you put Farmer Ted and Jake Ryan in a room and she said, "Farmer Ted raped me!" they'd likely believe that Jake Ryan was more likely to rape. Toxic male garbage, etc. 

[supermike80 1,339]

9 minutes ago, peenie said:

Skip to 3 minutes:

This wasn’t shocking or irregular. 

I'm not sure using a stupid teen movie to bolster this discussion works for me.

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

Just now, supermike80 said:

I'm not sure using a stupid teen movie to bolster this discussion works for me.

I think that she's just trying to show that in the 80s they made movies in which the woman was obviously raped and many thought it was funny. Using a pop culture reference. 

These days, this would be immediately censored or rewritten. 

[supermike80 1,339]

1 minute ago, TheNewGirl said:

I think that she's just trying to show that in the 80s they made movies in which the woman was obviously raped and many thought it was funny. Using a pop culture reference. 

These days, this would be immediately censored or rewritten. 

Well that's just dumb.  There's comedy out there today that is VERY offensive...and I laugh. Because it's comedy.

Matt Rife's domestic violence joke that got him in a whole world of trouble, was about the funniest joke he told in that special.  Does NOT mean I support domestic violence.  Cause I don't.

I mean, unless shes asking for it of course. 

[peenie 1,703]

I’m using the word “rape” and what I’m saying is that back then what was considered normal is now considered rape. Having sex with your drunk girlfriend could be deemed rape today while back in the 80’s and before was a wild night.

[supermike80 1,339]

Just now, peenie said:

I’m using the word “rape” and what I’m saying is that back then what was considered normal is now considered rape. Having sex with your drunk girlfriend could be deemed rape today while back in the 80’s and before was a wild night.

Yeah.  no.  Not even close. In fact if my friends found out one of us did that, he would hear it from us.  You just didn't do that.

[peenie 1,703]

3 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah.  no.  Not even close. In fact if my friends found out one of us did that, he would hear it from us.  You just didn't do that.

I’ve already stated, none of these things happened to me. I am just having a discussion.

ETA, 

I’m a bit of a prude if you haven’t noticed.

[supermike80 1,339]

Just now, peenie said:

I’ve already stated, none of these things happened to me. I am just having a discussion.

And I'm telling you that your premise that it was ok then and not now, is inaccurate.  

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

4 minutes ago, peenie said:

I’m using the word “rape” and what I’m saying is that back then what was considered normal is now considered rape. Having sex with your drunk girlfriend could be deemed rape today while back in the 80’s and before was a wild night.

No, it was still rape back then. That hasn't changed...it was rape. 

 

[supermike80 1,339]

Now..that being said...If my wife was drunk, and we ended up getting it on...I don't see that as rape.  THAT would be a wild night.  And perfectly OK in my book

[peenie 1,703]

2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Now..that being said...If my wife was drunk, and we ended up getting it on...I don't see that as rape.  THAT would be a wild night.  And perfectly OK in my book

But that’s what I’m saying! That is what is in the scene in the movie, except it’s his girlfriend.

[supermike80 1,339]

2 minutes ago, peenie said:

But that’s what I’m saying! 

No..Youre loopy.  My wife, drunk or not, is perfectly capable of telling me no..and if she says no then it's no.  And guess what, that's happened...a lot..to almost every married man.  Shes my wife.  I can absolutely try to bang her when she's drunk.  Its night and day different than trying to get with some girl from the bar or whatever.  '

This is getting even more confusing.  Are you saying ANY TIME a woman is drunk, sex is off limits? Period end of story?  I'm lost now.

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

1 minute ago, peenie said:

But that’s what I’m saying! Today is what is in the scene in the movie, except it’s his girlfriend.

No, it's not. 

You need to rewatch the scene. 

[peenie 1,703]

8 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

No, it's not. 

You need to rewatch the scene. 

I’m talking about when the dark haired cutie says his girlfriend is upstairs drunk and he could violate her in many different ways if he wanted and then the blonde guy says what are you waiting for…

[supermike80 1,339]

3 minutes ago, peenie said:

I’m talking about when the dark haired cutie says his girlfriend is upstairs drunk and he could violate her in many different ways if he wanted and then the blonde guy says what are you waiting for…

ITS A MOVIE

Jesus Peenie.   quit it will ya?  That was not a documentary

[TheNewGirl 1,066]

8 minutes ago, peenie said:

I’m talking about when the dark haired cutie says his girlfriend is upstairs drunk and he could violate her in many different ways if he wanted and then the blonde guy says what are you waiting for…

But Farmer Ted is the one that actually commits the act. 

Also, just saying you could violate someone doesn't mean you do it. 

It is just a movie, like mike said. 

At this point, I am not sure what your argument is, or what you're trying to "prove." The Accused in the OP is a true story that happened. Sixteen Candles is an 80s comedy, no basis in truth that I am aware of. 

What is your argument Peenie? Don't use movie references, or anything like that...what is the statement that you're trying to prove? 

[peenie 1,703]

10 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

ITS A MOVIE

Jesus Peenie.   quit it will ya?  That was not a documentary

Okay, I’ll stick with real life examples. I’m just trying to get some sort of discussion, and you don’t have to agree with me, clearly many of you do not, that older generations views on rape changed with time. That what was once considered acceptable (sex while under the influence) is not acceptable today.

 That is why there was victim blaming in the Accused movie and in real life, because she had been drinking and was flirty. 

[IGotWorms 3,430]

27 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

And I'm telling you that your premise that it was ok then and not now, is inaccurate.  

It’s possible that was true of you and your friends (though I’m guessing that’s a rose-colored view), but it certainly wasn’t the case with many people back then. Societal expectations have definitely evolved 

[supermike80 1,339]

7 minutes ago, peenie said:

Okay, I’ll stick with real life examples. I’m just trying to get some sort of discussion, and you don’t have to agree with me, clearly many of you do not, that older generations views on rape changed with time. That what was once considered acceptable (sex while under the influence) is not acceptable today.

 That is why there was victim blaming in the Accused movie and in real life, because she had been drinking and was flirty. 

There was and will be victim blaming and that ain't changing.  But people with their heads on straight would not do what was done to Josie Foster in that instance.  

[supermike80 1,339]

6 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

It’s possible that was true of you and your friends (though I’m guessing that’s a rose-colored view), but it certainly wasn’t the case with many people back then. Societal expectations have definitely evolved 

Rose colored view?  That me and my friends wouldn't try to fock a drunk girl in a pool hall who was dressing flirty?  Not sure where you grew up or what your friends and you felt was OK, but in my world, that was just not OK.

[peenie 1,703]

Brock Turner, in 2015, raped/assaulted (plea bargain - he did rape her) an unconscious girl behind a dumpster. He was a Stanford swimmer. The judge sentenced him to 6 months in jail because a harsher sentence, him having to go to prison at such a young age would have a severe impact on him not to mention all the impact of the media on him. And because HE was drunk and impaired, that may have been the reason he did this. (My interpretation of the judge’s words.) 

In the Accused movie the lawyer spoke about his client the same way the judge in real life spoke about Brock. Poor Brock didn’t mean it. Don’t ruin his bright future over this minor occurrence. It just reminded me of the old way of thinking.

[peenie 1,703]

Thanks for participating in this discussion! 

[HellToupee 763]

Morals changed .Unlimited access to free porn plus all sorts of drugs are a bad combo. 

[Engorgeous George 1,292]

10 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Rose colored view?  That me and my friends wouldn't try to fock a drunk girl in a pool hall who was dressing flirty?  Not sure where you grew up or what your friends and you felt was OK, but in my world, that was just not OK.

Not only not O.K., but I would have stepped in to stop it whether the perps were my friends or complete strangers.  Not on my watch.  i suspect the same of you.

 

To me there was, back in the day, and there remains today, a small subset of vile azzholes who take advantage, who live in a culture where the conduct Peenie describes is tolerated and or even celebrated.  Most of us stand opposed to that culture and always have.