gun folks - question

[Gepetto 1,285]

Can extraction marks from a non-fired round on one cartridge be linked to an exact individual gun?

 

edited: to correct term previously typed as bullet to cartridge.

[Maximum Overkill 1,738]

36 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

Can extraction marks from a non-fired round on one bullet be linked to an exact individual gun?

A chambered round that was never fired? No

[Gepetto 1,285]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

A chambered round that was never fired? No

Yes. OK. 

There is a prominent murder case with primary evidence being a non-fired round that was presented at trial as evidence linking a man's individual gun to a non-fired but supposedly chambered and ejected bullet found near the deceased. He was convicted of murder. 

[Gepetto 1,285]

 

[5-Points 3,385]

5 hours ago, Maximum Overkill said:

A chambered round that was never fired? No

This.

The rifling in the barrel is what leaves the marks on a bullet that are used to determine what gun was used to fire the bullet. They can also use the indentation from the pin striking the primer to determine if a spent case was fired, or not, by a particular gun. 

In both cases, the round would've had to have been fired to leave any evidence as to what gun it was fired from. 

Unless the defendants finger prints are on that unfired round, there's no proof it was even his, let alone which gun it may or may not have been ejected from. 

Assuming these are factory rounds. If the guy was using custom reloads, maybe. 

[5-Points 3,385]

5 hours ago, Gepetto said:

 

I watched about 10 minutes. Interesting. The Detective is claiming forensics found "ejection marks" on the round and that those marks are exclusive to his gun. 

That's news to me. Either there have been advances in forensics or the Detective is full of sh!t and just trying to get the guy to confess based on the other "evidence" they have. 

Best to assume the Detective is full of sh!t and keep your mouth shut. 

[Engorgeous George 2,121]

Forensic Marks on a Cartridge Case | NIST

[MLCKAA 540]

2 hours ago, 5-Points said:

I watched about 10 minutes. Interesting. The Detective is claiming forensics found "ejection marks" on the round and that those marks are exclusive to his gun. 

That's news to me. Either there have been advances in forensics or the Detective is full of sh!t and just trying to get the guy to confess based on the other "evidence" they have. 

Best to assume the Detective is full of sh!t and keep your mouth shut. 

Always best to assume a detective is full of sh*t.  They seldom care about getting the right guy, only about getting *A* guy.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,828]

3 hours ago, Engorgeous George said:

Forensic Marks on a Cartridge Case | NIST

In order for the round to have been ejected, he would have had to fire the weapon so I think this would not apply in this situation.  Seems like the detective is trying to get a confession.

[5-Points 3,385]

1 hour ago, MLCKAA said:

Always best to assume a detective is full of sh*t.  They seldom care about getting the right guy, only about getting *A* guy.

But this detective was "on his side" and "trying to help him."

 

[Engorgeous George 2,121]

3 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

In order for the round to have been ejected, he would have had to fire the weapon so I think this would not apply in this situation.  Seems like the detective is trying to get a confession.

Or just manually cycle the slide.

 

Without the round being fired the cartridge only contains the extractor tool mark, not any comprerssion markings or firing pin irregularity markings.  While extractor markings can be somewaht uniquepart of the force of that marking comes from the recoil ernergy of the gun being fired.

[5-Points 3,385]

8 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

In order for the round to have been ejected, he would have had to fire the weapon so I think this would not apply in this situation.  Seems like the detective is trying to get a confession.

He could've had to clear a jam. 

Highly unlikely for a Sig. 

And if that were the case none of the other forensics would come into play. Unless the forensics team racked the slide to eject unfired cartridges on every Sig 40 in existence, I find that "evidence" questionable at best. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,828]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Or just manually cycle the slide.

Without the round being fired the cartridge only contains the extractor tool mark, not any comprerssion markings or firing pin irregularity markings.  While extractor markings can be somewaht uniquepart of the force of that marking comes from the recoil ernergy of the gun being fired.

 

1 minute ago, 5-Points said:

He could've had to clear a jam. 

Highly unlikely for a Sig. 

And if that were the case none the other forensics would come into play. 

Ahh,..yes.  Completely wasn't thinking about that.  Makes sense. 

[HellToupee 1,583]

9 hours ago, Gepetto said:

 

My wife is into true crime which means unless there is a game on I’m into as well , I guess. Anyways I’ve seen Delphi suggested to us through the algorithm but know nothing about this. On the other hand she’s been into Karen Read case  for a couple of years it seems. 
 

Will have to check Delphi out

[Frozenbeernuts 2,112]

5 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

My wife is into true crime which means unless there is a game on I’m into as well , I guess. Anyways I’ve seen Delphi suggested to us through the algorithm but know nothing about this. On the other hand she’s been into Karen Read case  for a couple of years it seems. 
 

Will have to check Delphi out

What is up with women and true crime? They love scaring themselves.

[MLCKAA 540]

5 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

My wife is into true crime which means unless there is a game on I’m into as well , I guess. Anyways I’ve seen Delphi suggested to us through the algorithm but know nothing about this. On the other hand she’s been into Karen Read case  for a couple of years it seems. 
 

Will have to check Delphi out

I live in Indiana and this case was huge here.  A lot of chatter about the way it was handled.

[Gepetto 1,285]

There is more wrong with this case. 

The judge rules prior to trial the defense would not be allowed to present any alternative suspects theories. 

Richard Allen is the name of the man charged because he said he was walking on the bridge the day the girls were killed. He came forward to tell police this soon after the murders. They had a suspect early on, the owner of the land where the girls bodies were found the next day. His name was Ron Logan. He has since died of Covid. 

Ron Logan was in prison for another crime. in 2017 he confessed he killed the girls in Delphi (Abby and Libby) to another prisoner. 

Ron Longan explained what he did https://fox59.com/news/former-delphi-murders-suspect-made-detailed-confession-to-killings-attorneys-say/

The supposed confession was made by Ron Logan who owned the property where the girls’ bodies were found on Feb. 14, 2017.

According to the court filing, Logan made the confession while serving a prison sentence for a probation violation at the New Castle Correctional Facility. It was there that he began speaking with a fellow inmate on his cell block, Ricci Davis.

Davis contacted law enforcement in May 2017 to tell them that Logan had confessed to a step-by-step killing of Abby and Libby.

Davis wrote and signed a statement in June 2017 that read:

“Mr. Logan has made reference to the killings in Delphi, IN. He told me he was the one who had killed those girls, that it got out of hand. He walked with them in the woods to his property & the girls wanted to turn back. Said something about walking the —, he grabbed the youngest girl to reassure her it was ok, however they panicked and he also panicked. He indicated he ended up cutting the oldest with a box cutter. He went on telling me that he killed both of them because it was took too far.”

Indiana State Police First Sergeant P. Hansard interviewed Davis on the same day he wrote that statement. The officer’s notes from the interview were also published with the filing and provided more details about Logan’s supposed confession.

Davis told the officer that Logan said he was walking with the girls through the woods to take them back to his home and show them some of his animals. Logan allegedly told his fellow inmate that he used a box cutter to slit Libby’s throat and took Abby with him “for a while” but never said exactly where. Davis recounted that Logan said he had slit both girls’ throats.

Logan returned to the scene of the crime later in the evening while the searches for the girls were taking place, according to the filing. Davis said Logan told him he tried to move Libby’s body to an area where it wouldn’t be found.

Logan said he burned the clothes he wore that day in a fire pit, according to Davis’ statement.

Logan’s supposed confession contained details that were not made public at the time as well as details that came out in Richard Allen’s trial.

Logan was a prime suspect in the killings in the early days of the investigation. So much so that an FBI agent was able to obtain a search warrant for his home.

In that warrant, Agent Nikkole Robertson said Logan’s phone pinged in the area of the Monon High Bridge Trail around 2:09 p.m. on the day the girls were murdered. The prosecution contends the girls were killed around 2:32 p.m. because that’s the last time Libby’s phone registered any movement.

The data from Logan’s phone also shows he sent a text message later that evening at 7:56 p.m. and Robertson said the pings show Logan’s phone was “likely outside of his residence and in the proximity of where LG and AW’s bodies were located.”

The same phone data shows Logan received a text message at 10:16 p.m. that same night and again the data indicates Logan’s phone was “likely outside of his residence and in the proximity of where LG and AW’s bodies were located.”

That data would line up with Logan’s alleged confession that he returned to the scene later that evening.

Another detail of Logan’s confession that lines up with the evidence is that he attempted to move Libby’s body. Crime scene reconstructionist Pat Cicero testified during Allen’s trial that Libby was dragged to where she was ultimately found.

While Logan made a reference to a sexual assault in his supposed confession, he never mentioned other details of the crime scene such as the fact that Libby was nude or that Abby was wearing Libby’s clothes.

However, the detail Allen’s attorneys were most focused on in their filing is Logan’s alleged mention of using a box cutter.

When Logan supposedly made this statement, the fact that the girls’ throats were slit was not made public.

Dr. Roland Kohr, the pathologist who performed the autopsies, testified during Allen’s trial that the likely murder weapon was a box cutter.

Ron Logan speaks prior to his death: 

Ron Logan's ex-gf speaks recently: 

 

[Gepetto 1,285]

 

[Gepetto 1,285]

Richard Allen (prior to trial) was put in Solitary Confinement for 13 months. This caused him serious mental problems (insanity) to the point he started telling people "I did it" with no details. All he would do was start saying he did it. It was reported when he wasn't in solitary or the 30 minutes a day he was out of solitary he was constantly ridiculed and harassed by prison guards and prisoners. He got so bad he reportedly ate his own feces. I can't verify if that part is true.

Richard Allen's (the man convicted) defense team has appealed his conviction (and has requested the judge vacate the conviction) because of the confession by that other man (Ron Logan) who owned the property where the girls were murdered with a box cutter.

[Gepetto 1,285]

I found this reddit thread informative. 

 

[Hawkeye21 2,380]

Anyone ever hear of the Corn Rake Murder?  That happened in eastern Iowa.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,828]

24 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Anyone ever hear of the Corn Rake Murder?  That happened in eastern Iowa.

No, but I murdered a box of Corn Flakes over the course of one weekend.

[Alias Detective 1,388]

15 hours ago, Gepetto said:

Can extraction marks from a non-fired round on one bullet be linked to an exact individual gun?

If the casing had a scratch that matched a flaw in the chamber it could be damming evidence.  

[Nomad99 699]

37 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

If the casing had a scratch that matched a flaw in the chamber it could be damming evidence.  

Although possible......it's highly unlikely. They have relied on firing pin indentation & barrel grooving all these years for a reason. The type of defects that would leave distinct, unique markings on the casing itself just don't exist. That would be like dragging a piece of brass over sandpaper twice & getting the same scratches. 

[Alias Detective 1,388]

4 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

Although possible......it's highly unlikely. They have relied on firing pin indentation & barrel grooving all these years for a reason. The type of defects that would leave distinct, unique markings on the casing itself just don't exist. That would be like dragging a piece of brass over sandpaper twice & getting the same scratches. 

I get your point.  I’m saying if they was a MASSIVE burr or something very identifiable.  Unlikely but still a possibility is all I’m saying.  If there’s no identifiable marking then I agree.  It isn’t convictible.

 

[Gepetto 1,285]

There were three markings found on the unfired round found near one of the dead girls' legs.

I'm reading that the state had to have their testers fire Richard Allen's gun to get it to produce any markings at all. It did not make markings when cartridges were tested by ejecting. Also the neighbor to the crime scene had a gun chambered in 0.40 cal S&W and after analysis (they did not shoot this gun like RA’s) they could not exclude this gun as ejecting the cartridge found at the scene.

Finally, in the Richard Allen Delphi murders trial, the judge, Special Judge Fran Gull, did not allow the defense to present an expert witness who would have countered the state's extracting marking science on the "mystery bullet". Judge Gull ruled that the defense's metallurgist, Dr. William Tobin, was not a firearms expert and had no experience in firearms identification, thus his testimony lacked relevance. The judge also ruled that his lack of experience examining the evidence in the specific case further undermined its relevance. 

[Nomad99 699]

1 minute ago, Alias Detective said:

I get your point.  I’m saying if they was a MASSIVE burr or something very identifiable.  Unlikely but still a possibility is all I’m saying.  If there’s no identifiable marking then I agree.  It isn’t convictible.

 

Even if there were a burr...there is play in the chamber....the chances of some groove or scratch being exactly the same on multiple UNSPENT casings is doubtful. If it's a SPENT casing that expanded a little....slightly less doubtful. But it they were using a spent casing, they would revert to the primer indent. This should have been "shot" down from the get-go.

[Alias Detective 1,388]

20 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

Although possible......it's highly unlikely. They have relied on firing pin indentation & barrel grooving all these years for a reason. The type of defects that would leave distinct, unique markings on the casing itself just don't exist. That would be like dragging a piece of brass over sandpaper twice & getting the same scratches. 

7 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

Even if there were a burr...there is play in the chamber....the chances of some groove or scratch being exactly the same on multiple UNSPENT casings is doubtful. If it's a SPENT casing that expanded a little....slightly less doubtful. But it they were using a spent casing, they would revert to the primer indent. This should have been "shot" down from the get-go.

[Gepetto 1,285]

No shots were fired. There is no proof who's cartridge that was (in my opinion) or when it got there. 

The girls throats were slashed by a knife or box cutter. 

A DNA expert testifying for the state found none of Allen's DNA at the crime scene, and none of Libby or Abby's DNA was found on items recovered from his home.

[Gepetto 1,285]

In this short video, the man on the left was recorded by the murder victim minutes before she and her friend were killed. 

The guy on the right is Ron Logan, the owner of the land where their bodies were found. 

 

[Gepetto 1,285]

 

[kilroy69 1,215]

On 4/12/2025 at 12:23 AM, Gepetto said:

Yes. OK. 

There is a prominent murder case with primary evidence being a non-fired round that was presented at trial as evidence linking a man's individual gun to a non-fired but supposedly chambered and ejected bullet found near the deceased. He was convicted of murder. 

If it was chambered, not fired and then ejected and during the ejection process it left a mark that could be replicated then I would say yes. Like if the guy did not know one was in the pipe and he chambered another round ejecting the unfired shell. 

[Gepetto 1,285]

29 minutes ago, kilroy69 said:

If it was chambered, not fired and then ejected and during the ejection process it left a mark that could be replicated then I would say yes. Like if the guy did not know one was in the pipe and he chambered another round ejecting the unfired shell. 

What about the fact that when they tested the suspect's gun it left no marks when he ejected. They had to fire it to get marks to be made on the extraction of the casing. 3 marks. Everything I've read seems to indicate this is a class characteristic, not an individual characteristic so it would only point to the type of gun, not a specific gun. I find it odd that his gun doesn't make any ejector marks when cycled, but the round they found did. How could the suspect's gun leave marks on the round ejected but when tested (for cycling, not firing) it doesn't leave any marks? 

I think I remember that round was partway in the ground when it was found. 

I wish I could see high magnification  photos of the marks and  marks from the guns tested.

[kilroy69 1,215]

29 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

What about the fact that when they tested the suspect's gun it left no marks when he ejected. They had to fire it to get marks to be made on the extraction of the casing. 3 marks. Everything I've read seems to indicate this is a class characteristic, not an individual characteristic so it would only point to the type of gun, not a specific gun. I find it odd that his gun doesn't make any ejector marks when cycled, but the round they found did. How could the suspect's gun leave marks on the round ejected but when tested (for cycling, not firing) it doesn't leave any marks? 

I think I remember that round was partway in the ground when it was found. 

I wish I could see high magnification  photos of the marks and  marks from the guns tested.

That seems super suspicious. Even classic characteristics are not the same though. As soon as a gun is fired it starts to separate from another gun JUST like it based on use. If it had been in use the extraction mech could be damaged and leaving a wear pattern. I would absolutely be calling that into account as his lawyer. Cycling rounds through to see if they made the same exact mark or one that is different. Even slight wear should prove different. 

[Gepetto 1,285]

The Chief of Police said during this trial while on the stand that the neighbor of the land adjacent to where the girls bodies were found had his gun, a Sig Sauer tested and it was excluded. The truth is the lab found it to be inconclusive. Which also means the lab results were lies saying the testing showed the defendant's gun was a match to the found unspent round because you can't have a match to one gun and then not be able to exclude a different gun. Also, the police use .40 caliber S&W rounds as well. 

Also, several video interviews of witnesses and/or suspects were misplaced or lost per the County Sheriff. 

Also, several letters and video tapes from a prisoner were lost who stated that Ron Logan confessed to the murders with details (who was never charged, has since died, and lied about an alibi and had his cousin lie for him to establish an alibi before the girls bodies were even found, on his property no less, for the time period of when the girls were abducted (2 pm - 3 pm on 2/13/2017). One signed statement does exist explaining the confession. 

When that became public knowledge, the prosecutor quickly put out a statement to the news stations in the area that the prisoner failed lie detector tests miserably.

Ron Logan's cell phone was used near either were the girls were abducted and/or bodies found at the time they were abducted. 

There's video of a man walking and instructing the girls to go down the hill. His former girlfriend, before she knew the man in the video was the suspected killer said it was her ex-partner in the video and it was his voice in the recording made by one of the victims. 

Both of Ron Logan's last two girlfriends said he assaulted them, one being punched, the other hit across the head with a wrench. One said he threated to kill her. Both said they were afraid of him or afraid he would kill them.