$140,000 is the new poverty line. Here's the math

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

A new poverty line for a family of four in America: $140,000 a year.  

It’s a large number. The Federal Poverty Level set by the Department of Health and Human Services for a family of four is $32,150. The median household income in 2024 was $83,730. 

The provocative Substack post, published Nov. 23, comes from Michael Green, chief strategist and portfolio manager for Simplify Asset Management.  

For a populist argument about middle-class America slipping into poverty, Green might seem an unlikely source.  

We have been told, implicitly, that a family earning $80,000 is doing fine − safely above poverty, solidly middle class, perhaps comfortable,” Green writes.  

But if you consider what a household actually spends on childcare, housing, health care and other essentials in 2025, Green writes, “that $80,000 family would be living in deep poverty.” 

 

Is $140,000 the new poverty line? Here's a breakdown

Green set out to build a “Basic Needs” budget for a family of four, with two jobs and two kids, based on average spending in 2024: 

• Childcare: $32,773 
• Housing: $23,267 
• Food: $14,717 
• Transportation: $14,828 
• Health care: $10,567 
• Other essentials: $21,857 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

Biden left behind a world of hurt. SNAP recipients just about doubled on his watch. Complete failure. 

[Ron_Artest 2,360]

So because this guy says so in a substack, it is?

[MDC 7,987]

That is ridiculous. 

[nobody 2,911]

Trump's America

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

$140,000 for a Family of 4 is nothing, unless you live in a hood. 

[nobody 2,911]

His numbers actually check out.  Let's bounce it off common sense...

Childcare should be about $100 a day for 250 days assuming weekends and holidays right? $25,000

Housing.  Most people should be able to find something for $2k/month, so that's about right. $24k

Transportation: Need to factor in gas, and because you needed to move 40 miles away to afford a place, gas is a factor.  I have $13k assuming 2 cars for 10 years, $3/gal gas.  $1k per year maintenance costs. $13k

Food: Let's call it $50/day for a family of 4.  $18k

Healthcare: $10k is typical I guess?  Although it does seem high.  On average though, with a family of 4 someone is going to make you dip into to that deductible.

Other necessities... utilities, phone, clothes, incidentals, etc. easily run $1600/mo.  so that's about $20k

So I'm coming out with $110k with my back of the envelope math.  You could probably scrimp and save and reduce that to like $90k if you really didn't spend anything frivolously.

 

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

We are a Family of 4.and there's no way in hell we could live off of $140,000 a year. It's just not possible. 

[dogcows 1,160]

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes because right now there is a LOT of profit-taking in both areas.

At which point 140K would be worth a lot more.

Privatizing everything has turned out to be a huge lie and ripoff of working Americans.

[nobody 2,911]

This dude. They just love having opinions.

 

Like the gubmint gets involved and anything gets cheaper.

It would cost the same or more.  

 

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

7 minutes ago, dogcows said:

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes

It would also be shittty care. 

Canadians are coming across our border because they can't get appointments for months because there's not enough hospitals, doctors or meds. 

I'm all for Government healthcare but do you really trust our Government to pull it off?? Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

14 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

We are a Family of 4.and there's no way in hell we could live off of $140,000 a year. It's just not possible. 

Of course.  You probably pay more than 140k to your servants. 

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Of course.  You probably pay more than 140k to your servants. 

No, the Nanny lives in the guest house. All expenses paid, that's her pay! 

In all seriousness, it depends where and how you live. Someone in Trenton, NJ doesn't need to make as much as someone on Hilton Head Island. 

Who are we talking about? 

[FrancieFootball 237]

You still have a ways to go to breach the puberty line.

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

1 minute ago, FrancieFootball said:

You still have a ways to go to breach the puberty line.

Ok, at least that was funny 

[Mr Fantasy 92]

1 hour ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Housing: $23,267

That’s pretty low in places like Massachusetts 

[dogcows 1,160]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

It would also be shittty care. 

Canadians are coming across our border because they can't get appointments for months because there's not enough hospitals, doctors or meds. 

I'm all for Government healthcare but do you really trust our Government to pull it off?? Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter. 

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

I'm all for a solution, I just don't want our Government involved in any shape or form. Our Government can't even give our Soldiers the care they deserve. 

[Gepetto 1,465]

Where's Horseman? He could give advice on how to earn $500k plus per year.

[seafoam1 3,476]

2 hours ago, MDC said:

That is ridiculous. 

Poor mdpee. Broke as hell. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

I’m all for government healthcare as long as we keep importing more and more people from the third world.  

[Maximum Overkill 2,559]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I’m all for government healthcare as long as we keep importing more and more people from the third world.  

We need more American Doctors 

[seafoam1 3,476]

32 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Poor mdpee. Broke as hell. 

Poor mdpee. Yet another sad emoji. You are so hurt.  

 In one minute, he will leave another sad emoji. Guaranteed. Wait for it....mdpee monitors and emojis....That is the kind of life he has.  

[jerryskids 7,157]

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes because right now there is a LOT of profit-taking in both areas.

At which point 140K would be worth a lot more.

Privatizing everything has turned out to be a huge lie and ripoff of working Americans.

Because govt paid healthcare and daycare would be FREE#@!  It grows on the entitlement tree$#@!

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

Those are bankrupting our country,  The costs of these programs dwarf all other costs.  You know this, right?

SS cost $1.5T in 2024, 22% of our spending.

Medicare was "only" about $1T in 2024.

I think we need both programs, especially SS which we've paid into.  But the unwillingness of anyone to address the obvious need of SS (increase the age of payouts) will lead to major problems.  

[Drizzay 751]

The child care costs are spot on.  We pay about $2150 a month between my 2 year old's day care costs and my 7 year old's after school program.

That comes out to almost $26k a year.

[seafoam1 3,476]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Because govt paid healthcare and daycare would be FREE#@!  It grows on the entitlement tree$#@!

Those are bankrupting our country,  The costs of these programs dwarf all other costs.  You know this, right?

SS cost $1.5T in 2024, 22% of our spending.

Medicare was "only" about $1T in 2024.

I think we need both programs, especially SS which we've paid into.  But the unwillingness of anyone to address the obvious need of SS (increase the age of payouts) will lead to major problems.  

We pay into all of it. But I don't want to pay into it for those who haven't paid or don't currently pay into it. That is called charity. And that is my choice who I choose to be charitable to.