$140,000 is the new poverty line. Here's the math

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

A new poverty line for a family of four in America: $140,000 a year.  

It’s a large number. The Federal Poverty Level set by the Department of Health and Human Services for a family of four is $32,150. The median household income in 2024 was $83,730. 

The provocative Substack post, published Nov. 23, comes from Michael Green, chief strategist and portfolio manager for Simplify Asset Management.  

For a populist argument about middle-class America slipping into poverty, Green might seem an unlikely source.  

We have been told, implicitly, that a family earning $80,000 is doing fine − safely above poverty, solidly middle class, perhaps comfortable,” Green writes.  

But if you consider what a household actually spends on childcare, housing, health care and other essentials in 2025, Green writes, “that $80,000 family would be living in deep poverty.” 

 

Is $140,000 the new poverty line? Here's a breakdown

Green set out to build a “Basic Needs” budget for a family of four, with two jobs and two kids, based on average spending in 2024: 

• Childcare: $32,773 
• Housing: $23,267 
• Food: $14,717 
• Transportation: $14,828 
• Health care: $10,567 
• Other essentials: $21,857 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

Biden left behind a world of hurt. SNAP recipients just about doubled on his watch. Complete failure. 

[Ron_Artest 2,361]

So because this guy says so in a substack, it is?

[MDC 7,988]

That is ridiculous. 

[nobody 2,911]

Trump's America

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

$140,000 for a Family of 4 is nothing, unless you live in a hood. 

[nobody 2,911]

His numbers actually check out.  Let's bounce it off common sense...

Childcare should be about $100 a day for 250 days assuming weekends and holidays right? $25,000

Housing.  Most people should be able to find something for $2k/month, so that's about right. $24k

Transportation: Need to factor in gas, and because you needed to move 40 miles away to afford a place, gas is a factor.  I have $13k assuming 2 cars for 10 years, $3/gal gas.  $1k per year maintenance costs. $13k

Food: Let's call it $50/day for a family of 4.  $18k

Healthcare: $10k is typical I guess?  Although it does seem high.  On average though, with a family of 4 someone is going to make you dip into to that deductible.

Other necessities... utilities, phone, clothes, incidentals, etc. easily run $1600/mo.  so that's about $20k

So I'm coming out with $110k with my back of the envelope math.  You could probably scrimp and save and reduce that to like $90k if you really didn't spend anything frivolously.

 

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

We are a Family of 4.and there's no way in hell we could live off of $140,000 a year. It's just not possible. 

[dogcows 1,162]

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes because right now there is a LOT of profit-taking in both areas.

At which point 140K would be worth a lot more.

Privatizing everything has turned out to be a huge lie and ripoff of working Americans.

[nobody 2,911]

This dude. They just love having opinions.

 

Like the gubmint gets involved and anything gets cheaper.

It would cost the same or more.  

 

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

7 minutes ago, dogcows said:

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes

It would also be shittty care. 

Canadians are coming across our border because they can't get appointments for months because there's not enough hospitals, doctors or meds. 

I'm all for Government healthcare but do you really trust our Government to pull it off?? Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

14 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

We are a Family of 4.and there's no way in hell we could live off of $140,000 a year. It's just not possible. 

Of course.  You probably pay more than 140k to your servants. 

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Of course.  You probably pay more than 140k to your servants. 

No, the Nanny lives in the guest house. All expenses paid, that's her pay! 

In all seriousness, it depends where and how you live. Someone in Trenton, NJ doesn't need to make as much as someone on Hilton Head Island. 

Who are we talking about? 

[FrancieFootball 238]

You still have a ways to go to breach the puberty line.

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

1 minute ago, FrancieFootball said:

You still have a ways to go to breach the puberty line.

Ok, at least that was funny 

[Mr Fantasy 92]

1 hour ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Housing: $23,267

That’s pretty low in places like Massachusetts 

[dogcows 1,162]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

It would also be shittty care. 

Canadians are coming across our border because they can't get appointments for months because there's not enough hospitals, doctors or meds. 

I'm all for Government healthcare but do you really trust our Government to pull it off?? Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter. 

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

I'm all for a solution, I just don't want our Government involved in any shape or form. Our Government can't even give our Soldiers the care they deserve. 

[Gepetto 1,465]

Where's Horseman? He could give advice on how to earn $500k plus per year.

[seafoam1 3,476]

2 hours ago, MDC said:

That is ridiculous. 

Poor mdpee. Broke as hell. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

I’m all for government healthcare as long as we keep importing more and more people from the third world.  

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I’m all for government healthcare as long as we keep importing more and more people from the third world.  

We need more American Doctors 

[seafoam1 3,476]

32 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Poor mdpee. Broke as hell. 

Poor mdpee. Yet another sad emoji. You are so hurt.  

 In one minute, he will leave another sad emoji. Guaranteed. Wait for it....mdpee monitors and emojis....That is the kind of life he has.  

[jerryskids 7,157]

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes because right now there is a LOT of profit-taking in both areas.

At which point 140K would be worth a lot more.

Privatizing everything has turned out to be a huge lie and ripoff of working Americans.

Because govt paid healthcare and daycare would be FREE#@!  It grows on the entitlement tree$#@!

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

I’ve got family in Canada; their complaints about healthcare are minuscule compared to the problems here.

As for our government pulling it off… We already do Social Security and Medicare. This would just be expanding Medicare to cover everybody instead of just old folks. It would definitely have issues, but I think those issues would be far less than our current mess of people declaring bankruptcy because they get injured and didn’t have enough coverage… or the insurance company screwing them over and doing everything possible to NOT pay what they promised.

Those are bankrupting our country,  The costs of these programs dwarf all other costs.  You know this, right?

SS cost $1.5T in 2024, 22% of our spending.

Medicare was "only" about $1T in 2024.

I think we need both programs, especially SS which we've paid into.  But the unwillingness of anyone to address the obvious need of SS (increase the age of payouts) will lead to major problems.  

[Drizzay 751]

The child care costs are spot on.  We pay about $2150 a month between my 2 year old's day care costs and my 7 year old's after school program.

That comes out to almost $26k a year.

[seafoam1 3,476]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Because govt paid healthcare and daycare would be FREE#@!  It grows on the entitlement tree$#@!

Those are bankrupting our country,  The costs of these programs dwarf all other costs.  You know this, right?

SS cost $1.5T in 2024, 22% of our spending.

Medicare was "only" about $1T in 2024.

I think we need both programs, especially SS which we've paid into.  But the unwillingness of anyone to address the obvious need of SS (increase the age of payouts) will lead to major problems.  

We pay into all of it. But I don't want to pay into it for those who haven't paid or don't currently pay into it. That is called charity. And that is my choice who I choose to be charitable to. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,956]

Government run daycare? Hell yeah. The government only hires the best. 

[seafoam1 3,476]

1 minute ago, Drizzay said:

The child care costs are spot on.  We pay about $2150 a month between my 2 year old's day care costs and my 7 year old's after school program.

That comes out to almost $26k a year.

It is a couple's choice to have kids or not. It's a balance of responsibility is all. Any poverty stricken people having kids and can't afford to properly support their proper upbringing should be called out.  That should fall under child abuse. 

[seafoam1 3,476]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Government run daycare? Hell yeah. The government only hires the best. 

If someone wants mooney raising their kids, that should be a crime in itself? 

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

8 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Government run daycare? Hell yeah. The government only hires the best. 

Everyone wants Shaquanda raising their Kids. 

@squistion

[TimHauck 3,357]

9 hours ago, Drizzay said:

The child care costs are spot on.  We pay about $2150 a month between my 2 year old's day care costs and my 7 year old's after school program.

That comes out to almost $26k a year.

It is but daycare is more so the number is really only true for people with kids that aren’t in regular school yet 

[TimHauck 3,357]

10 hours ago, Gepetto said:

Where's Horseman? He could give advice on how to earn $500k plus per year.

He’d say don’t have kids and your costs would be a lot lower 

[Maximum Overkill 2,561]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

It is but daycare is more so the number is really only true for people with kids that aren’t in regular school yet 

You still need after care. The parents can't always be there to get them to or from Daycare or school. 

[Drizzay 751]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

It is but daycare is more so the number is really only true for people with kids that aren’t in regular school yet 

The breakdown is $1700 for day care and $450 for after school and non-school day care.

The older one will be done with the after school programming in two years when she can just walk home by herself after school is out.

The two year old will have 3.5 more years before he goes to kindergarten.

We are now just counting down the days when we will be done paying "extra" for child care (we pay a sh!load in property taxes here).  We have plans to buy a lake home as a second property which will eventually be our retirement home.  

[TimHauck 3,357]

1 hour ago, Maximum Overkill said:

You still need after care. The parents can't always be there to get them to or from Daycare or school. 

Yes but it’s less expensive than daycare

[5-Points 3,823]

12 hours ago, dogcows said:

If we had govt-paid healthcare and daycare, it would cost a fraction of the cost in taxes because right now there is a LOT of profit-taking in both areas.

At which point 140K would be worth a lot more.

Privatizing everything has turned out to be a huge lie and ripoff of working Americans.

Nice phrasing. As if the government is going to pay private doctors to practice medicine. 

The government isn't going to fund healthcare from the sidelines. They will want to control how much is spent on what, why, and for whom. IOW it would be government run healthcare. 

You been to the DMV lately?

No thanks. 

 

[dogcows 1,162]

10 minutes ago, 5-Points said:

Nice phrasing. As if the government is going to pay private doctors to practice medicine. 

The government isn't going to fund healthcare from the sidelines. They will want to control how much is spent on what, why, and for whom. IOW it would be government run healthcare. 

You been to the DMV lately?

No thanks. 

 

The government right now is interfering more in healthcare than ever before. All the CDC recommendations now are in direct opposition to what doctors and scientists recommend.

Every horror story about government overreach is happening, right now, directed by the party supposedly opposed to it. 

National Guard taking over our cities? Check

Censorship of universities? Check

Government overruling decisions of doctors for their patients? Check

Targeting private law firms with government lawsuits? Check

Politically-motivated DoJ investigations? Daily!

Instituting “Papers please?” checkpoints and stops just like the SS? Check

BLUF? If you wanted LESS government interference in your life, this president was the wrong choice. 

A lot of people are starting to realize that our non-partisan agencies actually serve a lot of useful functions. Gutting them and/or politicizing them is already hurting us. If you think doubling (or more) of health insurance premiums is bad, buckle up. The longer this administration is in power, the worse it will get. 

[Ron_Artest 2,361]

What this really highlights is that affordability is a major concern of all Americans.  Trump tells you it's a scam and a hoax and he doesn't want to hear about it.  Tells you everything you need to know.

[dogcows 1,162]

11 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Because govt paid healthcare and daycare would be FREE#@!  It grows on the entitlement tree$#@!

Those are bankrupting our country,  The costs of these programs dwarf all other costs.  You know this, right?

SS cost $1.5T in 2024, 22% of our spending.

Medicare was "only" about $1T in 2024.

I think we need both programs, especially SS which we've paid into.  But the unwillingness of anyone to address the obvious need of SS (increase the age of payouts) will lead to major problems.  

Health insurance (non government) costs us $4.4 trillion a year (as of 2022)  

One can look at any of the myriad countries with universal healthcare to see that it’s far cheaper for the citizens than our for-profit system. Oh yeah, and almost every country with universal care has longer life expectancy than the USA. 

I get the general distrust of the government… but when it comes to the cost to citizens, our system is by far the most expensive. So you’re not gonna win on the cost argument. 

[dogcows 1,162]

New Mexico is instituting govt-paid daycare for everybody. 

Should be an interesting experiment to see how it works out. I’m hoping it’s a success and goes national. 

https://apnews.com/article/universal-free-child-care-new-mexico-ec514c3b828e1100d4e5cd7ab17412db