RLLD 3,575 Posted August 22, 2006 I concur, you are either asking God or mommy for salvation.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IAMWood 6 Posted August 22, 2006 Pretty straightforward dude. What movie did I first hear that in? Heard it again on TV today too. Maybe no atheists but probaly a bunch of agnostics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,087 Posted August 22, 2006 Lets see how long it takes Voltaire to log out and log back in as "Flying Spaghetti Monster" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Blue 06 195 Posted August 22, 2006 I concur, you are either asking God or mommy for salvation.... Exactly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulinstl 295 Posted August 22, 2006 This saying has been around for quite a long time and gets used with some regularity, but it became even more popular after the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11, 2001. As Gordon B. Hinckley told Mormons back in 1996: "As you once knew so well, there are no atheists in foxholes. In times of extremity, we plead for and put our trust in a power mightier than ourselves. " Hinckley's quote explains the purpose behind saying that here are no atheists in foxholes: during times of great crisis, in particular those which threaten a person's life, it is no longer possible to "hold out" and maintain disbelief in a higher, saving power. During such experiences, the "natural" and automatic reaction of a human being is to start believing in God and hope for some form of salvation. For theists it may be natural to assume that such a thing is true. Theistic religions teach members that God is always there whenever circumstances are troubling or threatening. In the Western monotheistic faiths, believers are taught that God is ultimately in control of the universe and will eventually make sure that everything turns out well. Because of this, it may be understandable that a person who is part of such a tradition would assume that difficult circumstances would lead to theism for everyone. Is it even true? There must surely have been any number of atheists who, when faced with a deep personal crisis or life threatening situation (whether in foxholes or not), called out to a god or gods for safety, help or salvation. Atheists are human, of course, and have to deal with the same fears which all other humans must face. This is not, however, the case with every atheist in such situations. Here is a quote from Philip Paulson: "I suffered through horrifying moments, expecting to be killed. I was convinced that no cosmic rescuer would same me. Besides, I believed life after death was merely wishful thinking. There were times when I expected to suffer a painful, agonizing death. My frustration and anger at being caught in a dilemma of life-and-death situations simply infuriated me. Hearing the sound of bullets whistling through the air and popping near my ears was damned scary. Fortunately, I was never physically wounded." Quite aside from the fact of so many atheists who have not started believing in God during times of intense emotional experiences and extreme fear, there is a serious question as to whether or not those experiences can generate authentic faith. Would God even want people to believe merely because they were under great pressure and very afraid? Can such a faith lead to a life of faith and love which is supposed to be the foundation of religions like Christianity? In addition, there is also the fact that extreme battlefield experiences and the dangers of foxholes can undermine a person's faith in a good, loving God. Quite a few soldiers have entered battle devout believers but ended up coming away without any faith at all. Consider the following: "My great-grandfather returned from the Somme in the winter of 1916. He was an officer in a Welsh Guards regiment. He had been gassed and shot and had seen his platoon numerically wiped out and replaced more than three times since he first took command of it. He had used his side arm, a Webley revolver, so much that its barrel was pitted into uselessness. I heard a story about one of his advances across no-man's-land in which he set out with a full company and by the time he arrived at the German wire was one of only two men left alive. Until that time, this branch of my family had been Calvinistic Methodists. . . But when he returned from the war, my great-grandfather had seen enough to change his mind. He gathered the family together and banned religion in his house. 'Either god is a bastard,' he said, 'or god isn't there at all.'" (Paul Watkins, "A Friend to the Godless," pp. 40-41, in A Tremor of Bliss: Contemporary Writers on the Saints, ed. by Paul Elie, Riverhead Books / Berkeley, 1995. Quoted from Shy David's Higher Criticism Page.) If it isn't true that there are no atheists in foxholes and that many theists leave their foxholes as atheists, why does the above myth persist? It certainly can't be employed as an argument against atheism - even if it were true, that would not mean that atheism is unreasonable or theism valid. To suggest otherwise would be little more than an ad hominem fallacy. Is the claim that there are no atheists in foxholes meant to imply that atheists aren't "really" disbelievers and actually harbor a secret belief in God? Perhaps, but it is a false implication and can't be taken seriously. Is it meant to imply that atheism is inherently "weak" while theism represents "strength?" Once again, that may be the case - but it would also be a false implication. Regardless of the actual reasons for any particular theist to claim that there are no atheists in foxholes, it simply isn't true and should be rejected before the discussion goes any further. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red White and Blue 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Got to hand it to paulinstl - that was a pretty fast and comprehensive rebuttal! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bert 1,115 Posted August 22, 2006 And as long as there are tests in school there will be prayer in school. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairy Larry 0 Posted August 22, 2006 yeah..fear breeds ignorance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLLD 3,575 Posted August 22, 2006 yeah..fear breeds ignorance. You are a true Jedi master... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairy Larry 0 Posted August 22, 2006 You are a true Jedi master... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JMaximus12 0 Posted August 22, 2006 And PaulinSTL Said it all...wow...a simple statement, with the word "Discuss"..a.nd Paul comes up with that... Bravo...good show!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edjr 5,773 Posted August 22, 2006 I concur, you are either asking God or mommy for salvation.... Why? Neither one can help you. Why not be realistic and ask the guy kneeling next to you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ArnieBragg 1 Posted August 22, 2006 And PaulinSTL Said it all...wow...a simple statement, with the word "Discuss"..a.nd Paul comes up with that... Bravo...good show!!! You know he copied that from a website right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red White and Blue 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Put these on and you'll be fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JMaximus12 0 Posted August 22, 2006 You know he copied that from a website right? yeah, but at least there was some effort into the response...sure, "Cut n paste" isn't tough, but it brought more to the table than anyone else brought...so even if it was easy work, and not original, it still contributed to the conversation... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 yeah, but at least there was some effort into the response...sure, "Cut n paste" isn't tough, but it brought more to the table than anyone else brought...so even if it was easy work, and not original, it still contributed to the conversation... Who are you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulinstl 295 Posted August 22, 2006 You know he copied that from a website right? Forgot the link. Wasn't trying to claim it as my own http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/...rb_foxholes.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 No one ever dies an atheist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JMaximus12 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Who are you? Who am I? Who are you? who are any of us? Do you like, seriously want me to post my resume', or is it sufficient to say I'm just some guy who recently found this board, who loves football, politics, my family and hot women (not necessarily in that order)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewbieJr 541 Posted August 22, 2006 Who am I? Who are you? who are any of us? Do you like, seriously want me to post my resume', or is it sufficient to say I'm just some guy who recently found this board, who loves football, politics, my family and hot women (not necessarily in that order)? Hi, Burt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairy Larry 0 Posted August 22, 2006 No one ever dies an atheist. this is true..little known fact: atheists are immortal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulinstl 295 Posted August 22, 2006 No one ever dies an atheist. That's just bullsh1t. The lack of belief is as strong as belief. Are you claiming that when facing death, everyone turns to a higher power? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 Who am I? Who are you? who are any of us? Do you like, seriously want me to post my resume', or is it sufficient to say I'm just some guy who recently found this board, who loves football, politics, my family and hot women (not necessarily in that order)? Please post your resume. TIA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 That's just bullsh1t. The lack of belief is as strong as belief. Are you claiming that when facing death, everyone turns to a higher power? atheists lack hope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edjr 5,773 Posted August 22, 2006 religous nuts lack intelligence Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 http://danwho.net/mp/index.php?id=burr_catholicism Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,691 Posted August 22, 2006 There may be no athiests in foxholes, but there are plenty of Catholics in bungholes!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gratefulted 14 Posted August 22, 2006 I may not be an athiest, I'm sure the fock aint no believer either. And I've been in foxholes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 I may not be an athiest, I'm sure the fock aint no believer either.And I've been in foxholes do you believe in a higher power? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gratefulted 14 Posted August 22, 2006 do you believe in a higher power? Not to sure, I've read countless books about it and find myself not willing to take that leap, blind faith is impossible for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edjr 5,773 Posted August 22, 2006 do you believe in a higher power? George Bush? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 Not to sure, I've read countless books about it and find myself not willing to take that leap, blind faith is impossible for me. Sounds like you are more agnostic than atheist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulinstl 295 Posted August 22, 2006 atheists lack hope. So you're saying faith=hope? That's quite a leap in logic Toro. I know you're fishing, but that comment is blatantly wrong. One can be an atheist and still have hope. Faith: 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions 2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust Hope: 1 : to desire with expectation of obtainment 2 : to expect with confidence Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 So you're saying faith=hope? That's quite a leap in logic Toro. I know you're fishing, but that comment is blatantly wrong. One can be an atheist and still have hope. Faith: 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions 2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust Hope: 1 : to desire with expectation of obtainment 2 : to expect with confidence So what happens when you die? Nothing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edjr 5,773 Posted August 22, 2006 So what happens when you die? Nothing? Same thing that happens to you. They dig a hole, throw your sorry ass in it and forget about you. Now move along. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 Same thing that happens to you. They dig a hole, throw your sorry ass in it and forget about you. Now move along. That's sad. You must be captain cheerful during the Christmas party. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JMaximus12 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Please post your resume. TIA. Name: Turd "Bert" Ferguson Occupation: Resident bad-Ass Qualifications: 12 year FF player, 2 time champion, though coming off my worst year ever (4-10). Registered Independent, tend to vote more conservative than liberal, but open to idea on both sides, depending on the issue. Dude with a hot wife who lets me golf, go to strip clubs, or play fantasy football whenever I want. Did i mention she's hot? Ex-Military (Air Force)...during time of peace, fortunately for me. Genius (at least i think so). (said tongue in cheek, of course). Steeler fan, Godiva Truffle fan. How's that? Am I still allowed to post here now, Toro? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red White and Blue 0 Posted August 22, 2006 I'm not an atheist but this is a silly argument. Is it really "faith" if a non-believer prays to God out of fear? That does explain why so many old folks start going to church but it's not really belief IMO. Also, seems to me it'd take more strength to disbelieve in God and accept responsibility for all of your actions than to put your fate in the hands of something greater than yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toro 1 Posted August 22, 2006 Name: Turd "Bert" FergusonOccupation: Resident bad-Ass Qualifications: 12 year FF player, 2 time champion, though coming off my worst year ever (4-10). Registered Independent, tend to vote more conservative than liberal, but open to idea on both sides, depending on the issue. Dude with a hot wife who lets me golf, go to strip clubs, or play fantasy football whenever I want. Did i mention she's hot? Ex-Military (Air Force)...during time of peace, fortunately for me. Genius (at least i think so). (said tongue in cheek, of course). Steeler fan, Godiva Truffle fan. How's that? Am I still allowed to post here now, Toro? Link to pic of hot wife. Also, there is a pinned thread of all the geeks pics. Please feel free to join. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
