The Randy Moss era has begun

[Boston 0]

It's very early but after mini-camp it appears it's so far so good with the Randy Moss experiment. He's been on his best behavior both on and off the field and also looks like hes got something left in the gas tank physically. I really like the fact he's interacting with his teammates. That's nothing but a positive. If he's 85% of the player he was than the Pats O can really be explosive. I'm excited to see this unit as they look stacked more than any offense in the Brady era (at least on paper) and should be capable of putting up some big points.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...mp;lid=tab4pos2

[Raider 84 29]

[Dan 59]

Boston - question for you, because Randy Moss is an enigma to me. I'm not quite sure where to place him.

 

In New England's spread-it-around scheme, does Randy Moss emerge as a go-to guy? I realize that Brady actually has had #1 receivers before, despite common talk to the contrary, but I wonder about Moss. He brings the baggage and will be under the microscope because of it, whether he is reformed or not. Further is the speculation that his skills are diminished.

 

Is Randy Moss THE guy? Or is more likely that because of other factors he blends in rather than dominates?

 

I like Wes Welker, and personally thought he was the best offseason pickup the Patriots made offensively. (Adalius is a completely different discussion)

[Some Guy 0]

Boston - question for you, because Randy Moss is an enigma to me. I'm not quite sure where to place him.

 

In New England's spread-it-around scheme, does Randy Moss emerge as a go-to guy? I realize that Brady actually has had #1 receivers before, despite common talk to the contrary, but I wonder about Moss. He brings the baggage and will be under the microscope because of it, whether he is reformed or not. Further is the speculation that his skills are diminished.

 

Is Randy Moss THE guy? Or is more likely that because of other factors he blends in rather than dominates?

 

I like Wes Welker, and personally thought he was the best offseason pickup the Patriots made offensively. (Adalius is a completely different discussion)

I can answer this for you after reading the first post. Since Randy began his NFL career the only thing that made him really great was his speed, and size. He has never been a good route runner, and has shown very poor work ethic by his own admission of taking plays off. So, if he truly is only 85% of what he was physically, he's a #4 or #5 fantasy WR at best. I must say that this first report helps me by confirming what I had already feared about Randy Moss.

[soopacee 0]

hell, if i can sneak randy moss in as my #3 or 4 wr....i would take him

[xenophobe 1]

Boston,

 

Thanks for the update. I figured I'd run a few points by you that I'm curious to hear your take on.

 

You have to go back four seasons since Moss was an elete WR. That's an eternity in football time. Injury, age, plus motivational concerns are a bad combination, so I'm going to temper my expectations.

 

My biggest question for the Pats is, it seems they brough in two guys with injury histories that, when healthy, can stretch the field as good as any in the game, but little else. Particularly when you consider how much of their offense has been based on short, quick, timing routes. I'm definitly in the minority on this, but I'm highly skeptical on how much, exactly, this move has really improved their team.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

It has been a mixed bag. Supposedly, his character has been good (working out, showing up to charity functions, working well with other guys), but his practice ethic has been the same as before (slow motion, not running hard, etc.).

 

Best case is that he can spread the offense a little to free up things underneath for other guys, allow Brady to air it out a little more often (with Stallworth as well), and give them a redzone target (Washington ain't gonna cut it).

 

Worst case is that he is not happy with that role, becomes a cancer in the lockerroom, and they tell him to stay home.

[Mr. Dynasty 0]

Boston,

 

Thanks for the update. I figured I'd run a few points by you that I'm curious to hear your take on.

 

You have to go back four seasons since Moss was an elete WR. That's an eternity in football time. Injury, age, plus motivational concerns are a bad combination, so I'm going to temper my expectations.

 

My biggest question for the Pats is, it seems they brought in two guys with injury histories that, when healthy, can stretch the field as good as any in the game, but little else. Particularly when you consider how much of their offense has been based on short, quick, timing routes. I'm definitly in the minority on this, but I'm highly skeptical on how much, exactly, this move has really improved their team.

 

xeno, NE will still rely on that short (dink&dunk) passing game. That's why NE fans are so high on Wes Welker, his skill set is perfect for that type of attack. Welker, along with the other short range targets (TEs: Watson, D Thomas, K Brady, G Mills, and RBs: Faulk, Maroney [who has pretty good hands] will all benefit from a WR who can truly stretch the field).

Consider the amount of success NE has had with this short passing attack and consider that they've never had a true burner to stretch the field. They've been doing this for years now in cramped quarters, with little space to work and little room for error. Bethel Johnson was the closest thing they've had to a "burner" but he couldn't actually catch the ball after he ran by everyone, so the respect he commanded on deep routes was short lived.

With Moss and Stallworth, NE has (if nothing else) a true deep threat; a player that at least makes defense defend deep. And who knows, maybe both of them end up platooning with half their time on the trainer's table and the other half stretching defenses.

 

And don't forget that NE is no stranger to 5-wide sets. Over the past few seasons, their WR talent has been so thin that RBs (K Faulk) and TEs (Watson, Graham) frequently made up 2 or even 3 of those 5-wide sets. The thought of replacing RBs and TEs with actual WRs is enticing, never mind the fact the both WR can be considered #1 or "feature" type WRs.

 

And finally, for those who've watched NE, it's no secret that NE has never had that "big target" WR. They've looked every year for that prototypical, size/speed WR but none of their experiments have ever worked out ( D Hayes, D Terrell, A Davis to name a few). NE finally has a bunch "big" (6' +) speedy WRs who can go up in the air for a jump ball.

The bottom line is this: NE has recently had smaller, slower WRs. Over the past 2 years, they have made an effort to change that with the additions of players like J Gaffney (6'1), C Jackson (6'1), R Moss (6'4), K Washington (6'4), D Stallworth (6'0).

[dmleonard 0]

Don't fall for any of this. Randy is still the same old Randy and will end up with some of his classic sideline tirades and be an on the field cancer by the end of the season. He did the same thing when he started out in Oakland; Kept his mouth shut, worked hard, said all the right things, etc. It just got progressively worse after he stopped getting "enough" balls tossed his way/special treatment. I can hardly stomach all the delusional pats fans out there. Randy is 30 years old, doesn't keep himself in top shape (i.e. Owens, Harrison, etc), has chronic ankle and groin issues, never catches anything over the middle if there is traffic, hasn't had a top season since 2003, and has a piss poor attitude in general. Unless NE institutes the "Randy Ratio", it will be more of the same.

He can say what he wants now about just wanting a ring, but it won't last. I believe him when he says he wants a superbowl ring, but that will be secondary by the season's end because NE spreads the ball around too much. He'll be pouting on the field and on the sidelines. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him benched by the end of the season. Welker will by far be the best WR pickup NE made this offseason.

[Boston 0]

Xen/Dan-Here's my take...

 

Right now it's a complete guessing game with Moss. Until you see him at live game-speed you really don't know what you have. Anyone who says he's a definite stud or has declining skills is talking out their butt IMO. You just won't know where he is physically until he's in pads and playing real football.

 

Right now Moss is in a totally different situation than he was. He's surrounded by high quality character guys and if he was ever to be a totally focused player it will be this year. Right now his locker is next to Brady's, he's attended events like Hill's funeral and the team charity golf tourney. While others may scoff at that I feel this is incredibly important. The Patriot locker-room is like a virus and the more time Moss spends with players like Brady, Rodney, Bruschi, Seymour, Vince and Vrabel the better chance there is that his head will remain on straight and he will be focused. If he's focused I have little doubt he will be very productive.

 

Personally, I feel if Moss is anywhere close to what he was the Pats will be playing O at a level they never have before. I have to disagree with Dan about the Pats having a #1 WR. They never have really had that. Brown and Branch have had years where they played very well but neither was a legit #1. They just aren't that physically gifted. While Branch has some excellent skills when defenses focused on him they could take him out of game somewhat easily (or simply by puttting a topnotch CB on him like Champ in the 2005 playoffs). In 2005 San Diego and a few other teams totally shut him down in this type of situation. A legit #1 WR can still be productive in that type of scenario.

 

In years past the Pats have really searched for a deep threat. They missed totally on guys like Andre Davis, Donald Hayes and Bethel Johnson. The closest they have come is David Patten and while he did a good job he wasn't keeping defenses up at night. If Moss can still get it done deep he will be used early often. I really believe BB will run him into the ground IF (and that's a big if) he's somewhat of the player he was. Just like he did with Dillon on the ground in 2004.

 

My prediction for Moss is 70rec, 1100 yards and 10tds. I feel pretty comfortable about the TD total. While many will say the Pats like to spread it around they have never really had a legit red zone threat or deep threat in the passing game during the Brady era so you can't really use past history as a barometer.

 

In the end I do believe he'll prove to be a great addition for this year (after this year it's anyone's guess). The one thing that has surprised me about Moss is he appears to be a much smarter guy than I thought he was. I really believe he knows the situation he's in and what it means to his career. A big year this year with a ring puts him right back on track to be considered one of the elite that have played the game and he could not be in a better situation to accomplish that.

[Boston 0]

From a fantasy standpoint...

 

The word is Wes Welker has been the star of Patriot camp. I have felt all along that he will become the new Troy Brown and turn into Brady's favorite target over the next five years or so. Yet, I also believe he'll be a better real player than fantasy player. He'll keep the chains moving and have real good reception totals but I think the TD total will be low and the yardage nothing special.

 

Another x-factor is Garrett Mills. He was the forgotten man last year. He looked sluggish in camp and than was MIA after he got hurt. Reports are he has had a very good camp and could be in the mix especially since he brings a real diverse skill set. If that is the case than it will be even more difficult for Ben Watson to make much of a fantasy impact.

[mozzy84 0]

I can answer this for you after reading the first post. Since Randy began his NFL career the only thing that made him really great was his speed, and size. He has never been a good route runner, and has shown very poor work ethic by his own admission of taking plays off. So, if he truly is only 85% of what he was physically, he's a #4 or #5 fantasy WR at best. I must say that this first report helps me by confirming what I had already feared about Randy Moss.

this is stupid, the guy can run routes and has great hands, he catches anything thrown his way, his body control going up for balls and coming down with them is tops in the league. You don't have the stats he has by being A poor route runner. If moss is healthy all year which he should be, you actually think he isnt going to put up stats with the talent the pats have.

[remote controller 133]

One thing that is apparent to me, is that this is a much better place for him than the Pack was. That would have been a disaster, as the Pack is just not that good. Moss needs to be on a good team to perform. That's not a great trait, but it is the truth. This is a great discussion, and I had forgotten that the Pats had picked up Welker. I see this working for Moss, as Welker will do the hard work, ala Brown, and Moss can get some glory, ala Moss.

 

I would like some takes on the relative draft positions of both Moss and Plaxico. Where do people have them going?

[Dan 59]

Right now Moss is in a totally different situation than he was. He's surrounded by high quality character guys and if he was ever to be a totally focused player it will be this year. Right now his locker is next to Brady's, he's attended events like Hill's funeral and the team charity golf tourney. While others may scoff at that I feel this is incredibly important. The Patriot locker-room is like a virus and the more time Moss spends with players like Brady, Rodney, Bruschi, Seymour, Vince and Vrabel the better chance there is that his head will remain on straight and he will be focused. If he's focused I have little doubt he will be very productive.

 

This is the question that I think most have is regarding that influence. That's the curiosity and greatest factor in all of this. Interesting that you have Rodney on this list, who was considered a bad boy before coming to the Patriots.

 

Personally, I feel if Moss is anywhere close to what he was the Pats will be playing O at a level they never have before. I have to disagree with Dan about the Pats having a #1 WR. They never have really had that. Brown and Branch have had years where they played very well but neither was a legit #1. They just aren't that physically gifted. While Branch has some excellent skills when defenses focused on him they could take him out of game somewhat easily (or simply by puttting a topnotch CB on him like Champ in the 2005 playoffs). In 2005 San Diego and a few other teams totally shut him down in this type of situation. A legit #1 WR can still be productive in that type of scenario.

 

I don't think you disagree with me here . . . much anyway. I'm not referring to a stud in terms of numbers or such, but rather a security blanket, reliable target that Brady leans on, especially in clutch times. Branch was that. He hung on to everything ever thrown to him. The year he won the MVP he caught some passes and got absolutely hammered by Polamalu and hung on. He won my respect that game. Brown was old reliable, and I agree he was not overly gifted in the truest definition of a #1 WR, but trusted, and as such put up numbers significantly above the others on the team.

 

My prediction for Moss is 70rec, 1100 yards and 10tds. I feel pretty comfortable about the TD total. While many will say the Pats like to spread it around they have never really had a legit red zone threat or deep threat in the passing game during the Brady era so you can't really use past history as a barometer.

What about Ben Watson?

 

In the end I do believe he'll prove to be a great addition for this year (after this year it's anyone's guess). The one thing that has surprised me about Moss is he appears to be a much smarter guy than I thought he was. I really believe he knows the situation he's in and what it means to his career. A big year this year with a ring puts him right back on track to be considered one of the elite that have played the game and he could not be in a better situation to accomplish that.

 

I agree that this is rather a make-or-break year for him. Everything is set up for him, so if he doesn't do it this year, he's probably not going to (injury notwithstanding).

 

I am a fan of Wes Welker, nonetheless, and I think that he would be the one that I would go after long term. I'm in a dynasty league, and he's the one that intrigues.

[Foghorn Leghorn 0]

Right now Moss is in a totally different situation than he was. He's surrounded by high quality character guys and if he was ever to be a totally focused player it will be this year. Right now his locker is next to Brady's, he's attended events like Hill's funeral and the team charity golf tourney. While others may scoff at that I feel this is incredibly important. The Patriot locker-room is like a virus and the more time Moss spends with players like Brady, Rodney, Bruschi, Seymour, Vince and Vrabel the better chance there is that his head will remain on straight and he will be focused. If he's focused I have little doubt he will be very productive.

 

I think that this idea of leadership is an important point that some may be overlooking. In Minnesota Moss had Cris Carter to keep him in line but Oakland was sorely lacking in ANY kind of leadership, and look at the result. It reminds me a bit of Terrell Owens, in that when Jerry Rice was still around T.O. was, for the most part, a model citizen. But when Rice left, things deteriorated. Maybe the same thing happened with Randy Moss (maybe that 1600+ yard season after Carter retired was an anamoly). Now Moss is on a team that is stacked with leadership. I don't expect Moss' attitude to be a negative factor in his numbers at the end of 2007. Now, as long as his physical tools haven't eroded....

[Mr. Dynasty 0]

 

What about Ben Watson?

 

 

He has all the physical tools to be an "Antonio Gates" type TE and last year had all the opportunity needed to emerge as either a "deep threat" or "red zone" threat. Unfortunately, he didn't flourish in either role. It's not catastrophic for NE as asking your TE to be your primary deep threat and red zone target is asking a lot. It appeared that Watson had the skillset to do it, but it just never happened for him. He was the team's lead receiver early on but he was punished for it and by mid-to-late season he was battling injuries and some fumbling problems (which may have resulted for the wicked hits he was taking). Also keep in mind that Brady struggled early on last year and by the time Brady was playing well, Watson was taking a back seat with bumps&bruises and the emerging WR corps. There were a few big plays/tds early last year that Brady missed Watson on (bad throws).

Watson is still a nice player, but it doesn't look like he's ready to be the focal point of the offense.

I expect him to see fewer passes this year, but be in a position to do more with what does come his way.

From a stats standpoint: he has a better chance of staying healthy all year (he missed 3 games), but he won't have as much responsibility as he did last year. I wouldn't be surprised to see him post similar numbers as last year, just stretched over the full 16 game season (40 catch, 650 yards, 3 -5 TDs).

[Boston 0]

This is the question that I think most have is regarding that influence. That's the curiosity and greatest factor in all of this. Interesting that you have Rodney on this list, who was considered a bad boy before coming to the Patriots.

I don't think you disagree with me here . . . much anyway. I'm not referring to a stud in terms of numbers or such, but rather a security blanket, reliable target that Brady leans on, especially in clutch times. Branch was that. He hung on to everything ever thrown to him. The year he won the MVP he caught some passes and got absolutely hammered by Polamalu and hung on. He won my respect that game. Brown was old reliable, and I agree he was not overly gifted in the truest definition of a #1 WR, but trusted, and as such put up numbers significantly above the others on the team.

What about Ben Watson?

I agree that this is rather a make-or-break year for him. Everything is set up for him, so if he doesn't do it this year, he's probably not going to (injury notwithstanding).

 

I am a fan of Wes Welker, nonetheless, and I think that he would be the one that I would go after long term. I'm in a dynasty league, and he's the one that intrigues.

 

*Rodney is one of the better leaders I have ever seen in sports. His teammates worship him and he has zero issues telling it like it is. The Patriot players voted him Captain two weeks into camp in his first year which speaks for itself. He's a player you really can't understand unless you watch him every game (I know I didn't). He never takes a play off and is as intense an athlete as I have ever seen. It's that intensity that will cause him to get into the situations he does because he never slows down and is always trying to lay the hammer down. He's a player opponents will hate. Yet, as a teammate he is second to none.

 

*We pretty much agree on Branch. He did a great job for the Pats and usually performed his best on the largest stage. Yet, he has some physical limitations which I believe will always prevent him from being a legit #1 like a Harrison, Smith or Ward.

 

*I'm not real high on Watson. The physical tools are there but as of last year something's missing. He doesn't seem to have that all important "it" factor. He dropped far too many easy balls and his after the catch ball security was subpar. I think he's a solid all around TE but I'm very skeptical he'll reach the status many of us thought he could attain. Also, I actually like David Thomas alot. There's something about the kid that makes you feel comfortable. He's got great hands and I think he'll be in the NFL for a long time. He's hurt right now so his status is somewhat iffy but I see him eventually being a big piece of their O and at the least really hurting Watson's fantasy value.

 

*As for Welker I could not be higher on him. He runs precise routes, has great hands and has a non-stop motor. There's zero doubt he'll be a huge fan favorite here. The fact he'll be in the slot going against #3 CBs and safeties should mean the Pats will have some solid mismatches and I expect them to take full advantage of it. Yet, as I stated before I really think he'll be a better real football than fantasy player, especially this year with both Moss and Stallworth in the fold.

[sanders 0]

Randy Moss will be in the top 5 fantasy receivers.

[GobbleDog 816]

Top New England WRs for the past five years:

 

2006: Reche Caldwell 61 rec, 760 yards, 4 TDs

2005: Deion Branch 78 rec, 998 yards, 5 TDs

2004: David Givens 56 rec, 874 yards, 3 TDs

2003: Deion Branch 57 rec, 803 yards, 3 TDs

2002: Troy Brown 97 rec, 870 yards, 3 TDs

 

Note - during those five years, the highest number of recieving TDs by any Patriot WR or TE was 7 which happened only 3 times.

 

Randy Moss past two years:

 

2006: 13 GS, 42 rec, 553 yards, 3 TDs

2005: 15 GS, 60 rec, 1005 yards, 8 TDs

 

.....................................................................................................................

 

Randy Moss 2007: ????? realistically.... 65 rec, 850 yards, 6 TDs

 

Is that worth a 3rd or 4th round pick? Also consider the added risk of Moss getting suspended, arrested, not wanting to play, etc. IMO there are a bunch of other WRs with more upside and a lot less risk at that draft position.

[Boston 0]

Top New England WRs for the past five years:

 

2006: Reche Caldwell 61 rec, 760 yards, 4 TDs

2005: Deion Branch 78 rec, 998 yards, 5 TDs

2004: David Givens 56 rec, 874 yards, 3 TDs

2003: Deion Branch 57 rec, 803 yards, 3 TDs

2002: Troy Brown 97 rec, 870 yards, 3 TDs

 

Note - during those five years, the highest number of recieving TDs by any Patriot WR or TE was 7 which happened only 3 times.

 

Randy Moss past two years:

 

2006: 13 GS, 42 rec, 553 yards, 3 TDs

2005: 15 GS, 60 rec, 1005 yards, 8 TDs

 

.....................................................................................................................

 

Randy Moss 2007: ????? realistically.... 65 rec, 850 yards, 6 TDs

 

Is that worth a 3rd or 4th round pick? Also consider the added risk of Moss getting suspended, arrested, not wanting to play, etc. IMO there are a bunch of other WRs with more upside and a lot less risk at that draft position.

 

In all honesty I feel it's a futile effort to compare Moss to past Patriot WRs. You just can't get a handle on what he'll do based on what Reche Caldwell did last year or what Deion Branch did in his second year in the NFL. If he's got his act together there is zero chance the Pats will use him in the same fashion as the guys you listed above. His skill set is so much more advanced than those guys it's not even close. Now if you're down on Moss because you think he'll get hurt or his skills have diminshed than you can make a legit arguement about him having mediocre numbers. There is no doubt that that scenario is a possibility. Yet, to think a rejuvenated Moss would be used like Reche Caldwell and have similar numbers doesn't make sense.

[GobbleDog 816]

to think a rejuvenated Moss would be used like Reche Caldwell and have similar numbers doesn't make sense.

To think a winning franchise like New England will change a proven strategy of ball control and spreading the wealth simply because Randy Moss joined the team doesn't make sense.

[Boston 0]

To think a winning franchise like New England will change a proven strategy of ball control and spreading the wealth simply because Randy Moss joined the team doesn't make sense.

 

It absolutely makes sense. The Pats will ride a good player hard just like they did with Dillon in 2004. When he proved he was a stud he got a ton of touches. If Moss proves he can play like he did than he will as well. BB gets the most out of his player's talents. He's also doesn't have one specific style. Some weeks they run, some they throw and some weeks they do both. Some weeks it's five wide and others it's a two TE/FB power formation for the most part. It depends on the opponent, who's healthy and who they have talentwise that year. You simply can't pigeonhole how they play offense. D is the same way, there's some weeks they blitz and some weeks they concentrate on coverage. I have zero doubts that if Moss proves he's in the ballpark of the Moss of old he will be used in a manner far differently than the cast of WRs they have had in the past because he will be much bigger, faster and talented than anything they have had before. Randy Moss (along with Donte Stallworth) is not going to be used in a dink and dunk fashion if he's on his game. He is not going to be used in the manner as a 5'10", 185 WR which is pretty typical of what they have had in the past.

[KSB2424 3,083]

Momma always said: "It only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch"

[GobbleDog 816]

You simply can't pigeinhole how they play offense.

Why not? New England hasn't had a reciever with 1,000+ yards or 8+ TDs in over 5 years. I doubt that's true with ANY NFL team over the past 5 years. Clearly, they have a certain style that hasn't changed.... probably because it's been working and has produced three SuperBowl victories.

 

I expect more of the same... Randy Moss or not.

[FeelingMN 273]

Speaking Fantasy-wise, Moss will be a solid #2, low end #1 this year. The mocks I've done have him going in the middle rounds with the likes of Andre Johnson, Evans, DJax and the like. I think he has great value this year as he should post 1100+ yards and 10+ TDs.

 

To think a winning franchise like New England will change a proven strategy of ball control and spreading the wealth simply because Randy Moss joined the team doesn't make sense.

 

This is kinda a chicken and the egg question. Did NE run such an offense because that was their philosophy, and they just plugged players into it? or did they devise a scheme suitable to the players they had? My guess is that hey tailored their offense to match the skills of their players. Without a legit #1 to throw to, Brady kinda had to spread the ball around by default. Nonetheless, if this continues to be the NE offense's MO, then Randy will contribute when called upon and won't be the cancer everyone fears he'll become. Randy is no dummy and I think he's cool with sharing the ball.....as long as they win. Wait and see, come October, when the Pats are dominating, there'll be no more questioning of Randy's attitude. Remember back to the playoff game vs. GB @ Lambeau. Moss was gimpy with a sore hammy, and the Vikes were sputtering at the time. Moss played through pain and carried the Vikes to a win. If he didn't 'moon' the chessesheads, people would have had a totally different take on his performance that day. He'll be there when it counts.

[Foghorn Leghorn 0]

Why not? New England hasn't had a reciever with 1,000+ yards or 8+ TDs in over 5 years. I doubt that's true with ANY NFL team over the past 5 years. Clearly, they have a certain style that hasn't changed.... probably because it's been working and has produced three SuperBowl victories.

 

But did those numbers create the system, or did the system create the numbers? I'd be willing to bet that if the Patriots had Randy Moss over those last 5 years (instead of the #2 receivers that were used as #1's), Moss would have had 1,000+ yards and 8+ TDs in most, if not every one of those years (barring injury).

[GobbleDog 816]

I think he has great value this year as he should post 1100+ yards and 10+ TDs.

That's shooting for the moon. I prefer more conservative/realistic numbers in evaluating players.

 

This is kinda a chicken and the egg question. Did NE run such an offense because that was their philosophy, and they just plugged players into it?

I vote both.

[Boston 0]

Why not? New England hasn't had a reciever with 1,000+ yards or 8+ TDs in over 5 years. I doubt that's true with ANY NFL team over the past 5 years. Clearly, they have a certain style that hasn't changed.... probably because it's been working and has produced three SuperBowl victories.

 

I expect more of the same... Randy Moss or not.

 

You're totally taking talent out of the equation. If you believe Randy Moss will be used like Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown or Deion Branch we will fully, 100% have to agree to disagree. Having watched every second of the BB era I know one of his great strengths is to put his players in the best position to succeeed. Using Randy Moss in the same manner as a 5'10" WR with marginal speed like Troy Brown is not how BB operates. He does what his talent allows him to do and since they have busted in their attempts to diversify their WR corps (i.e. get a legit deep threat) with guys like Hayes, Terrell, Davis and Bethel they have had to play more to the strengths of WRs like Givens, Branch, Troy and Caldwell who have entirely different skills sets than Moss. Overall that's smart coaching...it is not a system that is rigid like you believe it is.

 

Quick question...do you expect the Pats to use Adalius Thomas in the same manner they used Junior Seau last year if he plays inside or like Tully Banta Cain if he plays outside? Using your philosophy for Moss is that what we should expect from Thomas?

[MDC 5,895]

Randy Moss doesn't run block, go over the middle, get many yards after the catch, and he becomes disinterested if plays aren't designed specifically for him. He's also a complete asshat. This does not seem to be a good fit for a spread em out passing game based on screens, quick slants and YAC, or a team that used to be known for attracting only character guys.

[GobbleDog 816]

You're totally taking talent out of the equation. If you believe Randy Moss will be used like Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown or Deion Branch we will fully, 100% have to agree to disagree. Having watched every second of the BB era I know one of his great strengths is to put his players in the best position to succeeed. Using Randy Moss in the same manner as a 5'10" WR with marginal speed like Troy Brown is not how BB operates. He does what his talent allows him to do and since they have busted in their attempts to diversify their WR corps (i.e. get a legit deep threat) with guys like Hayes, Terrell, Davis and Bethel they have had to play more to the strengths of WRs like Givens, Branch, Troy and Caldwell who have entirely different skills sets than Moss. Overall that's smart coaching...it is not a system that is rigid like you believe it is.

 

Quick question...do you expect the Pats to use Adalius Thomas in the same manner they used Junior Seau last year if he plays inside or like Tully Banta Cain if he plays outside? Using your philosophy for Moss is that what we should expect from Thomas?

Honestly I don't know squat about Adalius Thomas, but I gather he's a talented new LB? No, I guess they probably won't use him the same as washed up old Seau.

 

But to think 29 year old Moss will have 10+ TDs and 1,000+ yards when no New England WR has done that in years is pushing it. If Moss was in his prime... ok I might buy it. But Moss hasn't been the same player since 2003 when he played all 16 games and had his last phenominal season. Now it's 4 years later and he's playing for a team that historically doesn't create big WR stats. Between those two factors, he probably won't live up to the late 3rd-late 4th round pick. (not to mention the additional risk of suspension, arrest, injury, or just not wanting to play)

[RLLD 3,455]

We should establish some kind of "pool" to see how long it takes for this cat to implode on this team.

 

[KSB2424 3,083]

Randy Moss doesn't run block, go over the middle, get many yards after the catch, and he becomes disinterested if plays aren't designed specifically for him. He's also a complete asshat. This does not seem to be a good fit for a spread em out passing game based on screens, quick slants and YAC, or a team that used to be known for attracting only character guys.

 

You forgot the part about being old and washed up.

[xenophobe 1]

To me, his recent decline in performance is more than just his being in a bad situation in Oakland that we can assume will go away in NE. He was not always in an ideal situation in Minn either. Things got so bad there at the end of Green's time there that players were calling their own plays in the huddle, there was that asinine Randy ratio thing, and the team had to clean house after Tice's time there. And QB wise, prior to Culpepper, Moss had a merri-go-round of journeyman QBs throwing to him, and managed to make them all look good. Cunningham at the very end of his career, Brad Johnson, Jeff George, Spergin Wynn, Todd Bouman, you name it, he put up regardless of who was behind center.

 

As I said before, four years is a lifetime in the NFL. I just don't see this guy as the same tallent as he once was, and am a bit skeptical that a change in environment is going to change that.

[Mr. Dynasty 0]

Honestly I don't know squat about Adalius Thomas, but I gather he's a talented new LB? No, I guess they probably won't use him the same as washed up old Seau.

 

But to think 29 year old Moss will have 10+ TDs and 1,000+ yards

 

 

In his last 3 seasons, he play on awful teams (MIN, OAK, OAK)

 

why is it so unreasonable to think that once he joins an top tier team, his numbers would improve slightly.

70 catch, 1000 yards, 10tds doesn't look like a stretch to me.

 

nobody's calling for Moss to be a 100 catch, 1500yd, 13+TD WR.

[MDC 5,895]

You forgot the part about being old and washed up.

 

I also forgot to note how Patriots fans prided themselves on their squeaky clean character image and the fact that the team didn't need a name WR because they had a competent bunch of role guys ... until New England started signing free agents left and right and apparently don't mind having a dirtbag on the team. Now it's "just win, baby!"

[Mr. Dynasty 0]

 

As I said before, four years is a lifetime in the NFL. I just don't see this guy as the same tallent as he was, and am skeptical that a change in environment is going to change that.

 

he's not the talent he once was. he's not a 90 catch, 1400yd "best in the game" WR anymore.

 

I don't think any NE homers are trying to make that argument.

 

again, 65 - 70 catch, 1000yd, 9 - 10TDs would still be All-World compared to what NE has had in the recent past.

 

 

 

I also forgot to note how Patriots fans prided themselves on their squeaky clean character image and the fact that the team didn't need a name WR because they had a competent bunch of role guys ... until New England started signing free agents left and right and apparently don't mind having a dirtbag on the team. Now it's "just win, baby!"

 

 

Brian Cox?

Rodney Harrison?

Corey Dillon?

Ted Washington?

 

none were choir boys before arriving in NE.

What you fail to understand is it's the culture of winning and the business-like approach in their locker room that makes the difference.

[Boston 0]

he's not the talent he once was. he's not a 90 catch, 1400yd "best in the game" WR anymore.

 

I don't think any NE homers are trying to make that argument.

 

again, 65 - 70 catch, 1000yd, 9 - 10TDs would still be All-World compared to what NE has had in the recent past.

Brian Cox?

Rodney Harrison?

Corey Dillon?

Ted Washington?

 

none were choir boys before arriving in NE.

What you fail to understand is it's the culture of winning and the business-like approach in their locker room that makes the difference.

 

You're dead on...no one says that they are full of choir boys (Corey Dillon as a choir boy?). What they say is they don't put up with BS once they get to Foxboro. There's a big difference. If Moss acts up and the Pats put up with it than there will be a huge change in philosophy.

 

Also, last year Reche Caldwell had 61 catches. The year before Branch had 78. Is it really that much of a reach to see Moss with 70?

[listen2me 23 1,545]

Randy Moss will be in the top 5 fantasy receivers.

 

 

hahahaha.....

 

 

you are joking right?

[Boston 0]

To me, his recent decline in performance is more than just his being in a bad situation in Oakland that we can assume will go away in NE. He was not always in an ideal situation in Minn either. Things got so bad there at the end of Green's time there that players were calling their own plays in the huddle, there was that asinine Randy ratio thing, and the team had to clean house after Tice's time there. And QB wise, prior to Culpepper, Moss had a merri-go-round of journeyman QBs throwing to him, and managed to make them all look good. Cunningham at the very end of his career, Brad Johnson, Jeff George, Spergin Wynn, Todd Bouman, you name it, he put up regardless of who was behind center.

 

As I said before, four years is a lifetime in the NFL. I just don't see this guy as the same tallent as he once was, and am a bit skeptical that a change in environment is going to change that.

 

That's a legit case. I'm not saying I agree with it because as I said I don't think anyone really knows what he has left and won't until the pads go on and the games are real. Yet, that is a real reason to be tentative about him.

[Mr. Dynasty 0]

You're dead on...no one says that they are full of choir boys (Corey Dillon as a choir boy?). What they say is they don't put up with BS once they get to Foxboro.

 

 

it's part of why they're so tight with the guaranteed money. Even Moss and Stallworth are cut-able under their current contracts.

 

there have been plenty of player that NE's taken a chance on and once any nonsense started, the player was cut.

Doug Gabriel is a perfect example from last year. NE gave up a (5th?) rounder to get him. The door was wide open for Gabriel to succeed in NE. But, for whatever reason, Gabriel wasn't buying into NE philosophy and he was let go.