Pats Camera Man sending Signals?

[washers 0]

>> However, the more knowledgable fan realizes that strategy, game planning and outsmarting the other team is a huge part of the game...if not the biggest part.

How often does a football game come down to one big play or one big drive? Now think about how often those big Patriot playoff games over the last few years came down to the very end of the 4th quarter, when suddenly they were able to drive down the field, come from behind and make the winning score.

Now consider whether the Patriots somehow had the ability to know beforehand what the defense was going to do.

 

Again, the teams have pictures of defenses, and their films. They have seen what their tendancies are, and most defenses have 7 or 8 packages, and it can be read by a knowledgable quarterback or offensive coordinator what the opposing team will do on the next play. Saying somehow a cameraman stealing Defensive signs when you can look across the field and see it is cheating is just stupid, seeing the signs doesnt allow you to get a play down to counterract their decisions in time anyway thanks to the play clock. This is not a huge scandal.

 

p.s. teams drive down the field and score all the time. Why would they only be able to do it at the end if they can see all game???

[ScottyFargo 0]

First of all, this is not as bad as it may seem.

 

1. stealing signs is a tradition in sports, stemming from baseball, and it is used by any team to try to guess what is coming.

 

I feel the same way about stealing signs...but when you are doing more than reading lips and hand signals from across the field and have hired ninjas actually FILMING the information to be studied then it's getting into territory that ceases to be football. In baseball it's a little more natural since everyone is openly standing out on the fields giving signals.

 

2. Do you honestly think the cameraman could read the signals, relay them up to the booth, get the play call down, relay it onto the field, call the play, line up, and run it before the play clock expires? They run out of time just calling a play, get real people.

 

No, it's a little more simple actually. Each play is recorded as it happens. You have someone in your booth collecting this info thru the first half. Then, you take the play signals that you have your ninja record and have your coordinators match them up at halftime. This way you gain the advantage in the second half based off of what you filmed from the first half. I am sure this is only some of the ways you garner a competetive advantage doing this.

 

3. Why did they even bother filming it? You can see with the naked eye, but thats not against the rules, but if a camera is pointed in their direction...oooo noooo

 

So they could match it up with the plays that were called in the first half to gain an unfair advantage in the second.

 

4. All teams have their own cameramen, so I wouldnt be surprised if there are other teams doing it (although it really doesnt matter)

 

Maybe. There certainly seems to be an understanding so far, with teams like PGH already acknowledging they are safeguarded from this type of attack but not directly saying that NE is guilty. But Tomlin did say he wouldn't be surprised. Kind of like not wanting to be a rat, or whatever. Or not wanting to have attention on you. Too early to tell.

 

It's shady, but the Pats have an excellent team and an excellent coach and people are tired of them winning. In this day and age (see all of baseball), when something is going too well for someone, we dont point to talent, we pray for cheating. This is a dynasty of the likes we have seen before in Dallas, San Francisco, and Pittsburgh and should be respected as such, and no mention should be made of revoking rings. That is ludicrous.

 

If the coach is excellant, should that stop him from being fired if he is in fact indicated in the cheating?

[Filthy Fernadez 2,696]

Bottom line is Goddell has final say and he says it's wrong and will be punishing the Pats. Personally I think they deserve 1st and 2 round draft picks to be taken away. Make that organization clean up it's act and send a clear message to all others.

[OakHeadFootball 1]

Drama queens

[Boston 0]

Pats bashers will always bash and Pats defenders will always defend...the bottomline on this incident is the Pats screwed up in a royal way. There's zero excuse for this nonsense. To continue this stuff after Goodell made it clear it was forbidden is just stupid. The fact that they were already suspected and still continued to do this is unbelievably stupid (and arrogant). Unfortunately BB and company have put the franchise, it's players and it's fans in a sucky position and unfortunately there's nothing much you can do about it except realize that making excuses is lame because they have no one to blame but themself. After that you just concentrate on San Diego and the rest of the season and hope the players use this as something to rally around and turn a negative into a positive.

[Kilroy 0]

Pats bashers will always bash and Pats defenders will always defend...the bottomline on this incident is the Pats screwed up in a royal way. There's zero excuse for this nonsense. To continue this stuff after Goodell made it clear it was forbidden is just stupid. The fact that they were already suspected and still continued to do this is unbelievably stupid (and arrogant). Unfortunately BB and company have put the franchise, it's players and it's fans in a sucky position and unfortunately there's nothing much you can do about it except realize that making excuses is lame because they have no one to blame but themself.

 

Pretty good summary of it.

[Pimptaddy 0]

Pretty good summary of it.

 

 

Yeah, but he left out the part where the Dolphins did the same thing to New England last year and no one gave a sh-t.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Yeah, but he left out the part where the Dolphins did the same thing to New England last year and no one gave a sh-t.

Not exactly the same thing. I think that the summary was on target.

[Law 220]

Yeah, but he left out the part where the Dolphins did the same thing to New England last year and no one gave a sh-t.

 

 

The same thing? Really?

 

Where's the film of that???

[Stevey 0]

1) Filming the signs is infinitely more valuable than just observing them live. Sure, anyone can see them, but they can't remember all of them, and which plays came after. The taping part is what matters.

 

2) Anyone who says this is a scar on the Pats' Superbowls is an idiot. I don't remember their defense sucking any of those years, and that's a large part of most championship runs. This sign-stealing is only for defensive calls. The offensive calls come through the QB's helmet, or substitutions, and have for years.

 

That said, it's still cheating. But so is holding, and people get away with it all the time. Oh, your team doesn't hold...that's right.

[Filthy Fernadez 2,696]

Wouldn't it be something if Goddell said 'no post season' for the Pats like they do against college teams that cheat? I know it won't happen but imagine that affect on the playoffs and worse, Fantasy Football.

[hines86rules 0]

Good explanation of what happened, what rules were broken and what it means.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=3014944

[TKisBUFF 0]

"Yes they deserve to die, and I hope they burn in hell"

[ROCKET 0]

As a lifelong Pats fan I am both pi$$ed and ashamed. Like Boston already said I am in complete shock at the stupidity of BB and his staff. For all his genius of x's and o's he sure as hell lacks common sense. The worst part is we have a team that's good enough to win without doing stupid sheit like this.

 

I don't give a sheit if any other teams have done this or not. The point is we shouldn't have.

It's obvious to me now that BB is just yet another egotistical person who is so obsessed with winning that he'll take any risk to achieve it. Pats haters continue to pile on, BB deserves it but you can't blame loyal fans for sticking by their team who a lot of us live and die with.

[Mephisto 15]

lol @ "Bill Belicheat"

[Jesus Christ 0]

A pic of the incident maybe????

[markf 0]

As a lifelong Pats fan I am both pi$$ed and ashamed. Like Boston already said I am in complete shock at the stupidity of BB and his staff. For all his genius of x's and o's he sure as hell lacks common sense. The worst part is we have a team that's good enough to win without doing stupid sheit like this.

 

Stupid intelligent Pat's fans. Makin it hard to pick a fight.

 

Rocket and Boston are dead on here. It's like Tiger Woods shouting "Nunan" when his opponent is putting. Why bother? The Pats shouldn't need to do this, and it sounds like they were given plenty of warnings to put an end to it. I have no doubt that other teams do it... but the elite teams should be better than this.

 

Punishment? Hell I don't know. Roger is certainly in a "set an example" mood these days. But I'd be honestly surprised if it were more than a 3rd rounder and a fine. Every Pats game versus a good team this year and through the playoffs is a goldmine to the NFL. They're not gonna putz with that, imo.

[surferskin 30]

lol @ "Bill Belicheat"

 

i'd say at a minimum, the pats forfeit the jets game and SHOULD lose at least 2 draft picks...including a #1.

 

it's so funny that ESPN and other jock sniffers always wanted say that the pats teams were so classy but here's the list...

 

1. Belicheat is an adulterer and a cheater that likes to assault cameramen(accept when they're helping him cheat).

2. Brady is rivaling travis henry for bastard father of the year.

3. they've got the dirtiest player in league, that's also a cheater (rodney harrison)

4. they typically taunt their opponents (chargers game last year...eagles superbowl)

etc...

 

yeah, REAL CLASSY.

[edjr 5,593]

lol @ "Bill Belicheat"

 

I said that on the other board, don't take my line

 

 

They played the Rams TWICE in 2001

 

They played the Panthers TWICE in 2003

 

They played the Colts TWICE In 2004

 

They played the Steelers TWICE In 2004

 

 

IT ALL MAKES SENSE!!! THEY TAPED THE SIGNALS AND BEAT THEM THE SECOND TIME!

[Jesus Christ 0]

I think it should be noted that, no where does it say The NFL has found the Pats guilty of cheating and/or videotaping signals. What has come out is that "the NFL has determined that the Patriots have violated rules governing the usage of video tape on sidelines".

 

This could mean that they just violated the rule of having a camera on the sideline, will anyone care if the videotape just shows the game from field level maybe it's against the rules but is it cheating. The only people saying they have "cheated" are sources, nothing concrete on actual cheating. Greg Aiello of the NFL just says ""We are looking into whether the Patriots violated this rule."

 

Also, say it is true, how many were in on it? Do you think the players knew, or was it just the coaching staff? Either way, how many players, coaches personal have left the Patriots, is Romeo Crennel sitting silently to protect BB or is it because he's done it too, the guy is a couple losses shy of losing his job but he's gonna grin and bare it while Belichick has all the praise thrown at him over the years, yet Romeo knows he's cheating. Any player or coach that may be mad at BB or the Pats, woudn't they be coming out of the woodwork on this? Or are they not because it's everywhere?

 

My guess is that this takes place in every NFL game and the Jets try to one up the gameship and the story somehoe got legs and regardless of what is actually on the videotape the league will only fine the Patriots for having an unauthorized camera on the field. As if they do anything more the NFL risks the possibility of more of this stuff coming out, which will only hurt the leagu e image.

[surferskin 30]

I think it should be noted that, no where does it say The NFL has found the Pats guilty of cheating and/or videotaping signals. What has come out is that "the NFL has determined that the Patriots have violated rules governing the usage of video tape on sidelines".

 

This could mean that they just violated the rule of having a camera on the sideline, will anyone care if the videotape just shows the game from field level maybe it's against the rules but is it cheating. The only people saying they have "cheated" are sources, nothing concrete on actual cheating. Greg Aiello of the NFL just says ""We are looking into whether the Patriots violated this rule."

 

Also, say it is true, how many were in on it? Do you think the players knew, or was it just the coaching staff? Either way, how many players, coaches personal have left the Patriots, is Romeo Crennel sitting silently to protect BB or is it because he's done it too, the guy is a couple losses shy of losing his job but he's gonna grin and bare it while Belichick has all the praise thrown at him over the years, yet Romeo knows he's cheating. Any player or coach that may be mad at BB or the Pats, woudn't they be coming out of the woodwork on this? Or are they not because it's everywhere?

 

My guess is that this takes place in every NFL game and the Jets try to one up the gameship and the story somehoe got legs and regardless of what is actually on the videotape the league will only fine the Patriots for having an unauthorized camera on the field. As if they do anything more the NFL risks the possibility of more of this stuff coming out, which will only hurt the leagu e image.

 

Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

[parrot 789]

Pats bashers will always bash and Pats defenders will always defend...the bottomline on this incident is the Pats screwed up in a royal way. There's zero excuse for this nonsense. To continue this stuff after Goodell made it clear it was forbidden is just stupid. The fact that they were already suspected and still continued to do this is unbelievably stupid (and arrogant). Unfortunately BB and company have put the franchise, it's players and it's fans in a sucky position and unfortunately there's nothing much you can do about it except realize that making excuses is lame because they have no one to blame but themself. After that you just concentrate on San Diego and the rest of the season and hope the players use this as something to rally around and turn a negative into a positive.

 

[Jesus Christ 0]

Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

I just state nothing 100% has come out yet and say that in my opinion it will be swept under the rug as it's probably much larger issue then just the Patriots. There are too many knowing/interested parties in the league for this to be just the New Engalnd Patriots and for it to just come out now.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Imagine if they find out that he was just taking pictures up the cheerleaders skirts

[KSB2424 3,085]

"Yes they deserve to die, and I hope they burn in hell"

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

From Bill Belichick

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment."

 

See, it is all just a misunderstanding

[JScott 20]

The Pats, what a fraud. This certainly taints their legacy. It seems pretty cleat that this crap has been going on for a while now. There is no way in hell that the Pats just so happened to get caught the first time they tried this. Kind of like Sosa's corked bat.

 

And all you homers chanting the "every team does it" line can give it a rest. The burden is on you to substantiate that. Nothing I have heard or read indicates that other teams are engaging in this type of behavior. Either show your hand or sit back and enjoy the fraud that is the New England Patriots and the "genius" that is Bill Belichick.

 

As for the sanction that ought to be imposed, well, if off the field conduct that has nothing to do with the game of football brings severe sanction to individual players, severe sanctions should be imposed on the franchise where, as here, the team is basically cheating and impacting the game itself.

 

Love how you make the assumption that it's been going on for a while (with no proof except for this years Jet game) but then say the burden is on the Pats fan to substantiate that other teams do it.

 

So it's ok for you to assume but everyone else needs to bring proof

[surferskin 30]

Love how you make the assumption that it's been going on for a while (with no proof except for this years Jet game) but then say the burden is on the Pats fan to substantiate that other teams do it.

 

So it's ok for you to assume but everyone else needs to bring proof

or last year at green bay...

[JScott 20]

or last year at green bay...

 

I heard this too, but didn't think there was any proof of it (ie camera/tape confistcated) just speculation

[Mephisto 15]

I heard this too, but didn't think there was any proof of it (ie camera/tape confistcated) just speculation

 

The same guy was ejected from the Packers sideline for doing the same thing. They were tipped off in ADVANCE and were LOOKING FOR HIM as the game was getting underway. They found him. They ejected him.

 

That's proof.

 

Also, I'd like to add that Belicheat's having to call and explain "his interpretation" of the videotaping rule lends further credence to the reality that it is something that they have done regularly.

[edjr 5,593]

The same guy was ejected from the Packers sideline for doing the same thing. They were tipped off in ADVANCE and were LOOKING FOR HIM as the game was getting underway. They found him. They ejected him.

 

That's proof.

 

 

For a smart guy, belichick really is stupid.

 

He got caught cheating on his wife and now he gets caught taping signals with the same guy that got caught before?

[surferskin 30]

For a smart guy, belichick really is stupid.

 

He got caught cheating on his wife and now he gets caught taping signals with the same guy that got caught before?

he'll be at the chargers game video taping with bobby valentine's fake nose and mustache.

[Mephisto 15]

I might add that the fact that Belicheat has "apologized" and offered Goodell "his interpretation of the taping rules" lends credence to the fact that they do it regularly and it has been going on for some time.

 

Toss in the videographer being busted multiple times and teams like the Steelers, Packers, and Jets (perhaps others) being "warned ahead of time" about the PATRIOTS ONLY... and the excuse-makers on here really look pathetic.

 

Fock, you know Mangini clears the lockerroom/clubhouse area when the Jets come to town because he was probably a PART of it during his time there and is well aware of the devious tactics employed by that narcissist psycho - Bill Belicheat.

 

ETA: BB is like that dickhole we've all had in our leagues at one time or another. The guy who will win at all costs and take it way too seriously, even against friends. He's the guy you bounce from the league and never invite back. Wish the NFL could/would do that.

[JScott 20]

The same guy was ejected from the Packers sideline for doing the same thing. They were tipped off in ADVANCE and were LOOKING FOR HIM as the game was getting underway. They found him. They ejected him.

 

That's proof.

 

Also, I'd like to add that Belicheat's having to call and explain "his interpretation" of the videotaping rule lends further credence to the reality that it is something that they have done regularly.

 

You might want to look up the definition of 'proof'? Suspecting someone and taking a course of action (throwing him out) is not proof.

 

But I do agree that Belichick's phone call explaining "his interpretation" wreaks of him knowingly violating the intent of rules but trying to hide behind some loop hole or ambiguity in the wording.

[Mephisto 15]

You might want to look up the definition of 'proof'? Suspecting someone and taking a course of action (throwing him out) is not proof.

 

But I do agree that Belichick's phone call explaining "his interpretation" wreaks of him knowingly violating the intent of rules but trying to hide behind some loop hole or ambiguity in the wording.

 

Hey, dumbass... catching an opposing team's cameraman videotaping on YOUR sidelines is proof. Now shut the fock up. Or argue that there is no proof of what he was taping and look like a bigger dumbass apologist.

 

Someone knew what the Patriots do. Someone called and warned Green Bay. Green Bay substantiated the claim and busted the guy off the sidelines... and that's not proof? ######.

[parrot 789]

Hey, dumbass... catching an opposing team's cameraman videotaping on YOUR sidelines is proof.

You keep making this claim about it being on THEIR sideline. Could you back that up?

[aportanenko 0]

1. What bothers me is if they got approached for these shenanigans twice, imagine how many times they've done this without getting caught, (all you homers are gonna get in a twist about there is no proof of further instances and it's an assumption but COME ON, just smell the logic, they got caught caught in GB, then got warned in the offseason not to, if the GB instance was a rare occurence this story would end there, forgotten forever, THE END, but then they got caught in the Jets game "the first game of the effin' season, they were planning this for a while, why would they try to cheat again? face it, they've probably been doing it for a while, they thought they could get away with it again, Why? because they've gotten away with it before that's why, Not cool. They'll never get punished for those instances but it's still not cool.)

 

2. All these rebuttals of "well everybody does it" is steaming me too, you got caught videotaping i've never heard of that before. Are you kidding me?

 

Hmmm, next time I get caught speeding, I'm going to tell the trooper "well everybody does it" I'll let you know if the rebuttal worked or if I still got the ticket.

 

I always despised the Pats because they would torch us almost every time we played them and seemed to have us figured out defensively, now i have a legitimate reason to hate them.

 

'Cause they're a no good bunch of cheaters.

 

Now I am starting to feel bad for Pat's fans and THAT is making me heave, they didn't do this, their team did, and I'd rather shove a spoon in my eye than feel bad for a Pat's fan.

[TredH20 0]

You keep making this claim about it being on THEIR sideline. Could you back that up?

 

Just jumping into the conversation midstream here - the camerman was caught on the Pats side of the field - not the Jets side of the field. That photo going around with the cameraman on the Jets sideline is not the Pats video assistant Estrella. I dont know if that's a photoshopped image of just some camera guy, or just a photo of a cameraman on the sideline of the Jets videotaping the game. Whilst I agree that Belichick was arrogant for continuing to do this after being warned - I don't think he is stupid. He wouldn't send a guy over to the Jets side of the field to spy - a guy that Mangini knows from his time in New England.

 

I'd also like to offer up the fact that the camera and tape were confiscated in the first quarter. This makes it hard for the Pats to have had time to figure out the hand signals for the rest of the game - as they would have never gotten the chance to review the tape in the first place. Unless there were multiple tapes used...but that is conjecture.

 

And this stuff does occur all the time - with other teams. Coaches will try and do anything to gain an edge in the game. Coaches send spies to games to watch hand signals - then they sit down and match up the hand signals seen with the plays on the game tape. Coaches watch any video they can get their hands on - standard game tapes, highlight reels, sideline footage - looking for hand signals. It's safe to say that the Patriots aren't the only team that has moved to the next logical step of using video instead of sending scouts out - so that they can get real time feedback on how the other coaching staff is working. They are just the unlucky ones who were caught by a former coaching staff member aware of the practice. Most NFL teams have assistants to stand in front of the defensive coordinator to block any chances of the signals being seen by the opposing team - the Patriots have one to stand in front of Dean Pees.

 

I'm a New Englander and a huge Pats fan. I think that they violated the rule that was put in place at the beginning of the season. I'm ashamed that the coaching staff did it. I think it was arrogance for them to continue despite the policy in place and to continue doing it against a team with a head coach who doesn't like you and who KNOWS you do it (ok maybe that is stupidity). But I dont think that this is a reflection on the players at all - who know nothing about it. They'll pay the price of a fine and draft picks - which will hurt. But other teams in the past have violated policies and payed the same sort of price and have moved on, as will we.

[parrot 789]

Just jumping into the conversation midstream here - the camerman was caught on the Pats side of the field - not the Jets side of the field. That photo going around with the cameraman on the Jets sideline is not the Pats video assistant Estrella. I dont know if that's a photoshopped image of just some camera guy, or just a photo of a cameraman on the sideline of the Jets videotaping the game. Whilst I agree that Belichick was arrogant for continuing to do this after being warned - I don't think he is stupid. He wouldn't send a guy over to the Jets side of the field to spy - a guy that Mangini knows from his time in New England.

 

That was my understanding. In addition to the points you alread made, logistically their sideline would be a pretty terrible vantage point from which to try and record the coach signalling to the field. Just wanted Meph to fess up to spreading misinformation.

[KSB2424 3,085]

he'll be at the chargers game video taping with bobby valentine's fake nose and mustache.