Question about Waco.

[DAVID RUFFIN 2]

You guys should know by now that I'm not an agitator like Johnny B Good and a few others. I've seen the Waco debacle brought up in a post lately and I'm questioning what appropriate action the Feds should have taken. They suspected the children were being abused, it was confirmed that they had stockpiles of weapons and they were allegedly fired upon first. My memory is a littlse hazy on other details so help me out here.

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

You guys should know by now that I'm not an agitator like Johnny B Good and a few others. I've seen the Waco debacle brought up in a post lately and I'm questioning what appropriate action the Feds should have taken. They suspected the children were being abused, it was confirmed that they had stockpiles of weapons and they were allegedly fired upon first. My memory is a littlse hazy on other details so help me out here.

For me, it's a question of how much force does the government have the right to enforce. There are better ways to see if kids are being abused than armed men and assault tanks. In no way do I agree with what the davidians were doing or the cult they were part of. But I question how much force was needed. In hindsight, the government used way too much. Would the davidians have fired on agents had they come in peacefully and asked to see the kids or even the kids parents? I doubt it. The government used a heavy hand to enforce what they willed upon that cult. And if they can do that, they can do it to anyone. And that use of power is what fuels the fringe groups into anti-government themes.

[cbfalcon 827]

I'd have sent in an american ninja.

[DAVID RUFFIN 2]

For me, it's a question of how much force does the government have the right to enforce. There are better ways to see if kids are being abused than armed men and assault tanks. In no way do I agree with what the davidians were doing or the cult they were part of. But I question how much force was needed. In hindsight, the government used way too much. Would the davidians have fired on agents had they come in peacefully and asked to see the kids or even the kids parents? I doubt it. The government used a heavy hand to enforce what they willed upon that cult. And if they can do that, they can do it to anyone. And that use of power is what fuels the fringe groups into anti-government themes.

 

 

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that they did approach the compound under peaceful means and were turned away on more then one occasion.

[Mungwater 601]

I think a better case of excessive force was in the Elian Gonzalez case.

 

That photo of the guy with the assualt rife pointing at the kid with his uncle still cracks me up.

[cbfalcon 827]

I think a better case of excessive force was in the Elian Gonzalez case.

 

That photo of the guy with the assualt rife pointing at the kid with his uncle still cracks me up.

 

And since Elian is now an evil communist hell bent on destroying America, we'd have been better off blowing is head off that day...as a precautionary act.

[BLS 314]

Much is speculation, but many believe they wanted to demonize 'radical gun owners' in order to get public support for a weapons ban (that, funny was passed less than a year later).

 

You can't have a boogeyman if there isn't a threat. If there isn't a threat, make one up.

 

It is widely known that Koresh visted town daily. Often having coffee with the town sheriff.

Koresh agreed to meet the ATF to discuss the weapons he had in his house. The arranged meeting never manifested because the ATF didn't show.

 

Of course, there's no proof any of his guns were illegal. There's no proof he was abusing kids.

 

Now I'm not saying he wasn't a whackjob. I'm also not saying he was. I never met the man.

But it's AWFULLY convenient that there's no proof of anything the ATF claimed, and the only result was 75 people dead and an assault weapons ban.

 

Just another reason I do not trust our government.

[Frank M 181]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that they did approach the compound under peaceful means and were turned away on more then one occasion.

 

There was an investigation and an undercover agent sent in, but the first time they approached the compound was to execute a search warrant, and they were fired upon at that time. The Davidians say the government fired first.

[Frank M 181]

Much is speculation, but many believe they wanted to demonize 'radical gun owners' in order to get public support for a weapons ban (that, funny was passed less than a year later).

 

You can't have a boogeyman if there isn't a threat. If there isn't a threat, make one up.

 

It is widely known that Koresh visted town daily. Often having coffee with the town sheriff.

Koresh agreed to meet the ATF to discuss the weapons he had in his house. The arranged meeting never manifested because the ATF didn't show.

 

Of course, there's no proof any of his guns were illegal. There's no proof he was abusing kids.

 

Now I'm not saying he wasn't a whackjob. I'm also not saying he was. I never met the man.

But it's AWFULLY convenient that there's no proof of anything the ATF claimed, and the only result was 75 people dead and an assault weapons ban.

 

Just another reason I do not trust our government.

 

The search warrant was predicated on the suspicion that some of the gun parts that he was ordering had the potential to be modified into illegal weapons. The idea that he was stockpiling illegal weapons was a media thing. As for the child abuse, the investigator assigned to look into the allegations was never allowed to interview any of the children.

[Johnny B Good 0]

You guys should know by now that I'm not an agitator like Johnny B Good and a few others. I've seen the Waco debacle brought up in a post lately and I'm questioning what appropriate action the Feds should have taken. They suspected the children were being abused, it was confirmed that they had stockpiles of weapons and they were allegedly fired upon first. My memory is a littlse hazy on other details so help me out here.

 

 

I am not an agitator, I am one of the worst poster here.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

I am not an agitator, I am one of the worst poster here.

 

 

You belong in a dumpster behind an abortion clinic.

[VikesFan 1]

The government had plenty of opportunity to get Koresh, and they did not. The force is a huge part of the problem. It was unnecessary, and quite frankly, there is evidence that the goverment may have fired first.

 

Furthermore, the government should need more than suspicion to act on potential abuse. I'm sorry, but there should be a reasonable cause. Without it, nothing stops them from entering your place b/c they suspect that you are abusing your children. They need evidence. They overreacted, much in the same way they overreacted on that mormon sect a few years ago.

 

The constitution is clear that government action must be predicated on reasonable cause. Reasonable cause is a lot more than a hunch. Reasonable cause is a lot more than suspicion that the weapons they own could be turned into automatic weapons.

 

Oh, and speaking of weapons, I believe the constitution also says something about the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, as well as forming militia will not be infringed upon...

 

The bottom line is this. The government voilated the constitution of the US and 70 plus people are dead because of it. The British government got away with far less in the 1770s.

[kilroy69 1,268]

Ill tell ya exactly what they should have done. They should have done the EXACT same thing they did with the polygamist in texas last year or the year before. If you are looking out for the welfare of the kids you dont focking burn the place down. That was a giant clusterfock by trigger happy FBI agents.

[Frank M 181]

The government had plenty of opportunity to get Koresh, and they did not. The force is a huge part of the problem. It was unnecessary, and quite frankly, there is evidence that the goverment may have fired first.

 

Furthermore, the government should need more than suspicion to act on potential abuse. I'm sorry, but there should be a reasonable cause. Without it, nothing stops them from entering your place b/c they suspect that you are abusing your children. They need evidence. They overreacted, much in the same way they overreacted on that mormon sect a few years ago.

 

The court that agreed to a search warrant would disagree with you. Obviously there was enough reasonable cause for them to want to take a look around.

 

Not saying mistakes weren't made on either side, but the basic idea that laws had been or were being broken was sound.

[Me_2006 14]

We got rid of 75 crazy people. Win.

[BLS 314]

There are a WHOLE lot of assumptions going on here.

 

Just remember that what they tell you on TV isn't always true. It's probably more often, less true.

[Me_2006 14]

There are a WHOLE lot of assumptions going on here.

 

Just remember that what they tell you on TV isn't always true. It's probably more often, less true.

Unless that place was a hotel, they were bat-shiit crazy. A whole bunch of people living with a man they think is God in a place loaded to the limit with weapons is probably something the government should look into.

 

I understand government propaganda and manipulation of information to further an agenda, but c'mon. At some point reality says these ###### had a screw loose. And in a combustible situation like that, it's better them than me. Any guy that is focking little kids and that plans to be a martyr and thinks he's the Son of God doesn't need a compound full of weapons or anything but an ass-kicking and a straight jacket. That guy shouldn't be allowed weapons, legal or not.

[kilroy69 1,268]

Unless that place was a hotel, they were bat-shiit crazy. A whole bunch of people living with a man they think is God in a place loaded to the limit with weapons is probably something the government should look into.

 

I understand government propaganda and manipulation of information to further an agenda, but c'mon. At some point reality says these ###### had a screw loose. And in a combustible situation like that, it's better them than me. Any guy that is focking little kids and that plans to be a martyr and thinks he's the Son of God doesn't need a compound full of weapons or anything but an ass-kicking and a straight jacket. That guy shouldn't be allowed weapons, legal or not.

Yea but he went off the compound on a regular basis. All they had to do was wait for him to leave and nab him then. Instead of using brains they wanted to flex and started a fire that killed everyone.......yaaaay. Good job.

[Voltaire 5,491]

I forget the details.

 

I was paying attention at the time though and I remember that I was fine with how the government conducted things.

[shotsup 835]

Based on the below sir I DO NOT believe you to be the "voice of reason". Actually the opposite biotch.

 

 

 

For me, it's a question of how much force does the government have the right to enforce. There are better ways to see if kids are being abused than armed men and assault tanks. In no way do I agree with what the davidians were doing or the cult they were part of. But I question how much force was needed. In hindsight, the government used way too much. Would the davidians have fired on agents had they come in peacefully and asked to see the kids or even the kids parents? I doubt it. The government used a heavy hand to enforce what they willed upon that cult. And if they can do that, they can do it to anyone. And that use of power is what fuels the fringe groups into anti-government themes.

[kilroy69 1,268]

And Ruby Ridge was a giant fockup too. It seemed like the fbi at that time wanted to pick fights. Like they had a toughguy brute force mentality.

[Voltaire 5,491]

And Ruby Ridge was a giant fockup too. It seemed like the fbi at that time wanted to pick fights. Like they had a toughguy brute force mentality.

 

It's always the government's fault when taking on right wing gun freaks but any other criminals the government apprehend deserve the death penalty.

[kilroy69 1,268]

It's always the government's fault when taking on right wing gun freaks but any other criminals the government apprehend deserve the death penalty.

Criminals yes. I am fine with that. Entire family's? A little overkill. Sometimes ya just dont need brute force.

[VikesFan 1]

Ill tell ya exactly what they should have done. They should have done the EXACT same thing they did with the polygamist in texas last year or the year before. If you are looking out for the welfare of the kids you dont focking burn the place down. That was a giant clusterfock by trigger happy FBI agents.

 

Perhaps I should call the FBI anonomously and say that Kilroy69 is having sex with minors in his home so that they can storm in and separate you from your family for months while they try to build a case.

 

That's the problem... there was not enough reasonable cause to do what they did in Texas. And as it turns out, they had no case.

[Frank M 181]

Yea but he went off the compound on a regular basis. All they had to do was wait for him to leave and nab him then. Instead of using brains they wanted to flex and started a fire that killed everyone.......yaaaay. Good job.

 

 

They weren't trying to "nab" him. They were trying to see what he had going on in the complex. You can argue all you want about what happened after that and excessive force, but the bottom line is that they had suspicions about illegal weapons and child abuse, they weren't given access to the children to interview them, and the authorities went through accepted protocol to get a search warrant and execute it. At that point, things go haywire.

 

Koresh could have ended the whole situation by coming out at any time.

 

If you shoot at authorities and then barricade yourself in your house, they will come in and get you eventually. All I hear from people about this situation is that the government overstepped it's bounds. What were they supposed to do, wait indefinitely until he Jim Jonesed everybody? At some point, you have to go in and get him.

[BLS 314]

Unless that place was a hotel, they were bat-shiit crazy. A whole bunch of people living with a man they think is God in a place loaded to the limit with weapons is probably something the government should look into.

 

I understand government propaganda and manipulation of information to further an agenda, but c'mon. At some point reality says these ###### had a screw loose. And in a combustible situation like that, it's better them than me. Any guy that is focking little kids and that plans to be a martyr and thinks he's the Son of God doesn't need a compound full of weapons or anything but an ass-kicking and a straight jacket. That guy shouldn't be allowed weapons, legal or not.

 

 

I understand your point of view, but some deeper consideration is required here.

For one, tell me what law he broke.

 

Now, if it was true that he was touching the kiddies, then yes, arrest him.

If he had illegal firearms, that's breaking the law (it's bullshit, but it's the law).

 

But they had NO proof of any of it. How could they?

 

As Vikes said, he left the compound daily and was actually very well liked in town.

Being 'crazy' isn't against the law. By your justification, the police have the right to kick in anyone's door who owns more than 1 gun.

Or anyone who owns a gun and worships the devil or the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Just because you're different doesn't give the US Government the right to kick the door in. You need to be careful about how quickly you'll dismiss your civil liberties in the guise of 'safety'.

[Frank M 181]

I understand your point of view, but some deeper consideration is required here.

For one, tell me what law he broke.

 

Now, if it was true that he was touching the kiddies, then yes, arrest him.

If he had illegal firearms, that's breaking the law (it's bullshit, but it's the law).

 

But they had NO proof of any of it. How could they?

 

As Vikes said, he left the compound daily and was actually very well liked in town.

Being 'crazy' isn't against the law. By your justification, the police have the right to kick in anyone's door who owns more than 1 gun.

Or anyone who owns a gun and worships the devil or the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Just because you're different doesn't give the US Government the right to kick the door in. You need to be careful about how quickly you'll dismiss your civil liberties in the guise of 'safety'.

 

When they went there, it wasn't to arrest him. The point about him leaving the compound daily is moot. And they were looking for proof, hence the search warrant. You don't need proof to have a search warrant, just a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or is being committed.

 

The image of armed agents storming the compound isn't true. They knocked on the door with the warrant, shots were fired, and the siege began.

[MDC 7,889]

We'll never know who fired the first shots or started the fire that killed 70+. What we do know without a shadow of a doubt is that Branch Davidians shot and killed federal agents and refused to surrender to custody for almost two months. We also know the ATF had a search warrant for illegal weapons and several members of the cult said that Koresh had fathered children with several minors.

 

If these guys were any religion other than some fringe Christian denomination, nobody would be questioning the feds' version of events.

[Me_2006 14]

I understand your point of view, but some deeper consideration is required here.

For one, tell me what law he broke.

 

Now, if it was true that he was touching the kiddies, then yes, arrest him.

If he had illegal firearms, that's breaking the law (it's bullshit, but it's the law).

 

But they had NO proof of any of it. How could they?

 

As Vikes said, he left the compound daily and was actually very well liked in town.

Being 'crazy' isn't against the law. By your justification, the police have the right to kick in anyone's door who owns more than 1 gun.

Or anyone who owns a gun and worships the devil or the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Just because you're different doesn't give the US Government the right to kick the door in. You need to be careful about how quickly you'll dismiss your civil liberties in the guise of 'safety'.

I was too young at the time to pay attention, obviously. But it sounds like they went looking for that proof and shots rang out. At that point, you're asking for it. And as I said, I just can't have sympathy for a bunch of child-molesting crazies that load up with guns and bunker themselves in. You can't act suspicious and then shoot at the feds when they come give you the attention you were begging for, in my opinion. The whole thing just has a feel to it as if they WANTED to die, but that Koresh manipulated the situation to inspire this very discussion and make himself a hero.

[kilroy69 1,268]

I was too young at the time to pay attention, obviously. But it sounds like they went looking for that proof and shots rang out. At that point, you're asking for it. And as I said, I just can't have sympathy for a bunch of child-molesting crazies that load up with guns and bunker themselves in. You can't act suspicious and then shoot at the feds when they come give you the attention you were begging for, in my opinion. The whole thing just has a feel to it as if they WANTED to die, but that Koresh manipulated the situation to inspire this very discussion and make himself a hero.

I still maintain that they should have done something like a routine traffic stop on Koresh while serving the warrant. I know hindsight is 2020 but to me that entire era of the FBI seemed like dicks hell bent on flexing.

[joneo 562]

For me, it's a question of how much force does the government have the right to enforce. There are better ways to see if kids are being abused than armed men and assault tanks. In no way do I agree with what the davidians were doing or the cult they were part of. But I question how much force was needed. In hindsight, the government used way too much. Would the davidians have fired on agents had they come in peacefully and asked to see the kids or even the kids parents? I doubt it. The government used a heavy hand to enforce what they willed upon that cult. And if they can do that, they can do it to anyone. And that use of power is what fuels the fringe groups into anti-government themes.

 

 

I would have elected you to be the one to approach the door without a weapon, knock on said door, and take care of the situation. My goodness, why didn't the government THINK of such a method other than being so heavy handed.

[joneo 562]

Here's a copy of the search warrant.

 

http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/waco.html

[joneo 562]

I understand your point of view, but some deeper consideration is required here.

For one, tell me what law he broke.

 

Now, if it was true that he was touching the kiddies, then yes, arrest him.

If he had illegal firearms, that's breaking the law (it's bullshit, but it's the law).

 

But they had NO proof of any of it. How could they?

 

As Vikes said, he left the compound daily and was actually very well liked in town.

Being 'crazy' isn't against the law. By your justification, the police have the right to kick in anyone's door who owns more than 1 gun.

Or anyone who owns a gun and worships the devil or the Stay Puft marshmallow man. Just because you're different doesn't give the US Government the right to kick the door in. You need to be careful about how quickly you'll dismiss your civil liberties in the guise of 'safety'.

 

 

Dude, you obtain a search warrant to gather evidence. It is based on information gathered from witnesses or officer observations. This goes in front of a judge who determines if there is reasonable belief. Any evidence seized is to provide proof for the court to determine if a crime has been committed.

 

I understand and appreciate your love of guns and rights. However, I also believe anyone who owns a gun could use their guns against me. COULD..... That is what I worry about. Man, are we going to biatch at each other over some brews or what!

[buffalobillsffl2003 0]

Twitchy Reno was in the tank...pulling a Porky Pig.

 

 

F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F... FIRE!!!!!

 

L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L...LEFT!!!!!!!

[VikesFan 1]

I'd kind of like to know what the "truth" was...

 

[remote controller 143]

They weren't trying to "nab" him. They were trying to see what he had going on in the complex. You can argue all you want about what happened after that and excessive force, but the bottom line is that they had suspicions about illegal weapons and child abuse, they weren't given access to the children to interview them, and the authorities went through accepted protocol to get a search warrant and execute it. At that point, things go haywire.

 

Koresh could have ended the whole situation by coming out at any time.

 

If you shoot at authorities and then barricade yourself in your house, they will come in and get you eventually. All I hear from people about this situation is that the government overstepped it's bounds. What were they supposed to do, wait indefinitely until he Jim Jonesed everybody? At some point, you have to go in and get him.

This is much like my take on this whole situation. Were mistakes made? yes Could they have been avoided? not the way Koresh handles things My concern at the times was in the line of the Jim Jones situation. The outcome at Waco was horrific, but I can't place the fault on the Govt. and Janet Reno.

[DAVID RUFFIN 2]

Talk about diverse opinions, everything from burn baby burn to sending a candy gram. Y'all made your points and I appreciate them,

[BLS 314]

Dude, you obtain a search warrant to gather evidence. It is based on information gathered from witnesses or officer observations. This goes in front of a judge who determines if there is reasonable belief. Any evidence seized is to provide proof for the court to determine if a crime has been committed.

 

I understand and appreciate your love of guns and rights. However, I also believe anyone who owns a gun could use their guns against me. COULD..... That is what I worry about. Man, are we going to biatch at each other over some brews or what!

 

 

Nah, I understand your point of view. I also understand everything is not perfect. Uncle Sugar screws up just like the rest of us.

I just think the way it went down was rather heavy handed. I understand the point about obtaining a search warrant. I actually read it (the link you posted). Sounds like Koresh was a total whackjob.

[remote controller 143]

Sounds like Koresh was a total whackjob.

Damn near as nutty as your former Governor.

[Bill E. 703]

We'll never know who fired the first shots or started the fire that killed 70+. What we do know without a shadow of a doubt is that Branch Davidians shot and killed federal agents and refused to surrender to custody for almost two months. We also know the ATF had a search warrant for illegal weapons and several members of the cult said that Koresh had fathered children with several minors.

 

If these guys were any religion other than some fringe Christian denomination, nobody would be questioning the feds' version of events.

 

I do not agree with you too often but I give you on this one. Also didn't he say he would come out when he finished writing the Bible or something ?