Cryptocurrency

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

I have .55 btc. Come on 1 mil

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

1 hour ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

The good news is that the gov is going to depend on bitcoin tax revenue now. Even if the wording of the bill isn't right. We will have more and more pro bitcoin poloticians get into office. We may see adoption of bitcoin as currency even. Not for a while though

Bitcoin is not going away.

I am interested to see how the government reacts when they finally realize how efficient the bitcoin network is for facilitating transactions.

Let me ask what is probably a dumb question...

You guys say there is some sort of a cap on bitcoin... 21 million if I recall correctly?

How would that work? Would it not impede its widespread adoption as an actual circulating currency? Especially if people continue to hold it as an investment vehicle?

[edjr 6,602]

30 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

I have .55 btc. Come on 1 mil

:d

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

52 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Let me ask what is probably a dumb question...

You guys say there is some sort of a cap on bitcoin... 21 million if I recall correctly?

How would that work? Would it not impede its widespread adoption as an actual circulating currency? Especially if people continue to hold it as an investment vehicle?

Not at all. It creates rarity. There will always be a market for selling butcoin, just as there is always a market to sell anything that has any value whatsoever. The more valuable bitcoin gets, the more the selling market will grow imo.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

1 minute ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Not at all. It creates rarity. There will always be a market for selling butcoin, just as there is always a market to sell anything that has any value whatsoever. The more valuable bitcoin gets, the more the selling market will grow imo.

Thats my point exactly. How can a currency both be rare, and in widespread global use for daily transactions? Are we going to be buying packs of gum with 0.0001 BTC?

[edjr 6,602]

33 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Thats my point exactly. How can a currency both be rare, and in widespread global use for daily transactions? Are we going to be buying packs of gum with 0.0001 BTC?

Maybe a Tesla?

[Cdub100 3,918]

1 hour ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Thats my point exactly. How can a currency both be rare, and in widespread global use for daily transactions? Are we going to be buying packs of gum with 0.0001 BTC?

We have grown used to the idea of debt driven growth. We live in a FIAT world that is always inflating.

Instead of prices going up they would go down. And yes you would be looking at .00001 BTC for a pack of gum

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

1 hour ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Thats my point exactly. How can a currency both be rare, and in widespread global use for daily transactions? Are we going to be buying packs of gum with 0.0001 BTC?

Yes. 1 satoshi is .00000001 bitcoin. It can be broken down even further if needed.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

Some people get bogged down by valuing things in a currency other than dollars, but dollars haven't been around for all that long. Things have been valued in gold, beads, seashells, cattle, etc. Dollars weren't going to last forever.

[nobody 2,687]

3 hours ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Let me ask what is probably a dumb question...

You guys say there is some sort of a cap on bitcoin... 21 million if I recall correctly?

How would that work? Would it not impede its widespread adoption as an actual circulating currency? Especially if people continue to hold it as an investment vehicle?

That's one of the things people like about bitcoin.  

The idea is that it's more of a true gold standard type of currency, so the government can't just print more money and devalue your savings.

I would argue that is a recipe for disaster.  The government uses controlled inflation to stimulate the economy when necessary.  It also makes things like home ownership profitable since we know we can expect the value of the home to go up.  Without that controlled inflation it is only a matter of time before we have a deflation event.  This will cause prices of goods and services to go down and the value of savings to go up, but the problem with that is people who own assets like houses will also see the value of their house go down and when we have an event like the 2008 financial crisis, people will walk away from those mortgages and the deflation cycle will spiral and more and more people will walk away from underwater mortgages, etc.

In essence, if we didn't have fiat currency, the great recession of 2008 would've been a great depression part 2.

Obviously bitcoin-ers will disagree with this assessment.

[Alias Detective 1,404]

1 hour ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Some people get bogged down by valuing things in a currency other than dollars, but dollars haven't been around for all that long. Things have been valued in gold, beads, seashells, cattle, etc. Dollars weren't going to last forever.

Other than the dollar, which is a fraud, those other items are tangible.

[Cdub100 3,918]

1 hour ago, nobody said:

That's one of the things people like about bitcoin.  

The idea is that it's more of a true gold standard type of currency, so the government can't just print more money and devalue your savings.

I would argue that is a recipe for disaster.  The government uses controlled inflation to stimulate the economy when necessary.  It also makes things like home ownership profitable since we know we can expect the value of the home to go up.  Without that controlled inflation it is only a matter of time before we have a deflation event.  This will cause prices of goods and services to go down and the value of savings to go up, but the problem with that is people who own assets like houses will also see the value of their house go down and when we have an event like the 2008 financial crisis, people will walk away from those mortgages and the deflation cycle will spiral and more and more people will walk away from underwater mortgages, etc.

In essence, if we didn't have fiat currency, the great recession of 2008 would've been a great depression part 2.

Obviously bitcoin-ers will disagree with this assessment.

I don't believe we need "controlled" inflation. I would argue the central bank has less control then they lead us to believe. The us was doing just fine before fiat currency. 

There are pros and cons to both obviously. 

[nobody 2,687]

19 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

I don't believe we need "controlled" inflation. I would argue the central bank has less control then they lead us to believe. The us was doing just fine before fiat currency. 

I don't know about that.  We came off the gold standard trying to come out of the great depression because there were runs on banks and people were hoarding gold.  

Wouldn't people just hoard Bitcoin in a deflationary cycle?  

[Cdub100 3,918]

22 minutes ago, nobody said:

I don't know about that.  We came off the gold standard trying to come out of the great depression because there were runs on banks and people were hoarding gold.  

Wouldn't people just hoard Bitcoin in a deflationary cycle?  

People hoarding Bitcoin coin is a lot different than runs on the bank. If there was a run on Bitcoin all that would do is drive the btc price up in whatever you use to exchange for it. There by lowering the cost (in btc) of items you want.

 

[nobody 2,687]

1 hour ago, Cdub100 said:

People hoarding Bitcoin coin is a lot different than runs on the bank. If there was a run on Bitcoin all that would do is drive the btc price up in whatever you use to exchange for it. There by lowering the cost (in btc) of items you want.

 

That's what I mean.  Deflationary cycle, but this is in the hypothetical case of Bitcoin being actual currency.  You and I are in agreement in that Bitcoin as a currency doesn't make sense, but the limited supply aspect is still a good topic.

Another issue that I realized is that even under a gold standard you can essentially manipulate the value of currency just by saying a bank note is worth X amount of gold.  

So essentially the limited supply aspect of a hypothetical digital currency would essentially guarantee the collapse of the economy in my view since the country would have no ability to spend money unless they had enough actual reserves.  Of course, they would almost assuredly invent some way to get around it, but it also defeats the purpose of having limited supply.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

4 hours ago, Alias Detective said:

Other than the dollar, which is a fraud, those other items are tangible.

Bitcoin isn't any less tangible than the internet, Google, Facebook, all kinds of purely digital stuff

[Cdub100 3,918]

1 hour ago, nobody said:

That's what I mean.  Deflationary cycle, but this is in the hypothetical case of Bitcoin being actual currency.  You and I are in agreement in that Bitcoin as a currency doesn't make sense, but the limited supply aspect is still a good topic.

Another issue that I realized is that even under a gold standard you can essentially manipulate the value of currency just by saying a bank note is worth X amount of gold.  

So essentially the limited supply aspect of a hypothetical digital currency would essentially guarantee the collapse of the economy in my view since the country would have no ability to spend money unless they had enough actual reserves.  Of course, they would almost assuredly invent some way to get around it, but it also defeats the purpose of having limited supply.

Interesting points. When a bank says a note is worth X amount of Y. Don't they have to have that amount of Y in their treasury? 

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

1 hour ago, nobody said:

That's what I mean.  Deflationary cycle, but this is in the hypothetical case of Bitcoin being actual currency.  You and I are in agreement in that Bitcoin as a currency doesn't make sense, but the limited supply aspect is still a good topic.

Another issue that I realized is that even under a gold standard you can essentially manipulate the value of currency just by saying a bank note is worth X amount of gold.  

So essentially the limited supply aspect of a hypothetical digital currency would essentially guarantee the collapse of the economy in my view since the country would have no ability to spend money unless they had enough actual reserves.  Of course, they would almost assuredly invent some way to get around it, but it also defeats the purpose of having limited supply.

Yeah. Clearly I have little to no idea what I'm talking about here, but I could see bitcoin basically replacing gold as a method of stored value, but one of the others being the actual day to day currency, for that reason. 

[Cdub100 3,918]

10 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Yeah. Clearly I have little to no idea what I'm talking about here, but I could see bitcoin basically replacing gold as a method of stored value, but one of the others being the actual day to day currency, for that reason. 

People get so caught up with X replacing Y. Bitcoin isn't going to replace gold. They can coexist together.

While I don't think Bitcoin will be a currency I could see people in hyperinflation environments wanting to get paid in bitcoin.

[tubby_mcgee 701]

11 hours ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Not at all. It creates rarity. There will always be a market for selling butcoin, just as there is always a market to sell anything that has any value whatsoever. The more valuable bitcoin gets, the more the selling market will grow imo.

So wait. 

We want the money we spend...(that's what we are told --- Bitcoin will be the new money/currency) to be rare?

 

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

15 minutes ago, tubby_mcgee said:

So wait. 

We want the money we spend...(that's what we are told --- Bitcoin will be the new money/currency) to be rare?

 

Yes. The exact opposite of dollars. We can directly correlate infinite money creation with loss of buying power. Over time a currency always decays and becomes doomed

In a perfect world money would only be created through real debt, signifying growth of the economy. The government will always print in excess to pay for things it wants creating a runaway debasement. People cannot be trusted with maintaining a fiat currency that is always backed by a hard asset. It always ends the same

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

Here is another example of how bitcoin will cement itself as a real asset and not just a beanie baby 

Eventually Visa and Mastercard will start to use the bitcoin network for their transactions. They will basically be getting a free network. The only cost being electricity, plus a small fee to node operators, which allows payments to have final settlement within 10 minutes for a fraction of what it costs for their current network.

If and when that happens, will you beanie baby believers acknowledge that bitcoin has an actual use case? Remember, the currency aspect is a small aspect of bitcoin. Its the smallest aspect of bitcoin since currency isn't a rarity. The network is the crowning achievement that can allow any currency to be transacted and swapped anywhere in the world instantly with minimal fees.

Something that valuable, to replace all of the current global networks so that money can be exchanged world wide between any entity, is going to grow exponentially in value. There will be incentive to hold large quantities of bitcoin to make money off of transaction fees. If I have $1M worth of bitcoin sitting in my node, I may only get a small % of that in transactions fees, but at $1M it adds up.

Bitcoin the network will also allow you to swap money between PayPal, venmo, zell, Square etc without friction. Something that wasn't possible before bitcoin. If one of those companies insists on maintaining their proprietary private network, they will be left out. They will have to keep their higher fees while not benefiting from instant settlement and inclusion into the new world network.

[Alias Detective 1,404]

34 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Here is another example of how bitcoin will cement itself as a real asset and not just a beanie baby 

Eventually Visa and Mastercard will start to use the bitcoin network for their transactions. They will basically be getting a free network. The only cost being electricity, plus a small fee to node operators, which allows payments to have final settlement within 10 minutes for a fraction of what it costs for their current network.

If and when that happens, will you beanie baby believers acknowledge that bitcoin has an actual use case? Remember, the currency aspect is a small aspect of bitcoin. Its the smallest aspect of bitcoin since currency isn't a rarity. The network is the crowning achievement that can allow any currency to be transacted and swapped anywhere in the world instantly with minimal fees.

Something that valuable, to replace all of the current global networks so that money can be exchanged world wide between any entity, is going to grow exponentially in value. There will be incentive to hold large quantities of bitcoin to make money off of transaction fees. If I have $1M worth of bitcoin sitting in my node, I may only get a small % of that in transactions fees, but at $1M it adds up.

Bitcoin the network will also allow you to swap money between PayPal, venmo, zell, Square etc without friction. Something that wasn't possible before bitcoin. If one of those companies insists on maintaining their proprietary private network, they will be left out. They will have to keep their higher fees while not benefiting from instant settlement and inclusion into the new world network.

I think you talk out both sides yo mouth.  Many agree the technology is there and valuable.  As a currency or satoshi......many think you are wrong.

 

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

33 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

I think you talk out both sides yo mouth.  Many agree the technology is there and valuable.  As a currency or satoshi......many think you are wrong.

 

It could be. Like I said bitcoin as currency may never happen on a large scale. It could be used as such, but that's not what I care about the most. Im not talking out of both sides of my mouth. I have acknowledged that bitcoin may never become a standard currency. I have laid out why it could become one, but that's the least sure bet I'm willing to make. And for some reason that's where your focus lies. I have said this also, forget about bitcoin as currency.

I'm invested in bitcoin the store of value, the exponential potential for growth of my investment, and the network before I'm invested in bitcoin as a currency.

[Alias Detective 1,404]

12 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

It could be. Like I said bitcoin as currency may never happen on a large scale. It could be used as such, but that's not what I care about the most. Im not talking out of both sides of my mouth. I have acknowledged that bitcoin may never become a standard currency. I have laid out why it could become one, but that's the least sure bet I'm willing to make. And for some reason that's where your focus lies. I have said this also, forget about bitcoin as currency.

I'm invested in bitcoin the store of value, the exponential potential for growth of my investment, and the network before I'm invested in bitcoin as a currency.

 My contention with you has been on the currency aspect to bitcoin specifically.  If you are moving away from that stance, we can begin to agree more in this thread.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

40 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

 My contention with you has been on the currency aspect to bitcoin specifically.  If you are moving away from that stance, we can begin to agree more in this thread.

Ok fair enough. I do think it can be used as such, but there is no guarantee. Odds are probably lower than 50%. It may prove to be too valuable of as asset to use as currency

[nobody 2,687]

Visa will have a free network except for the electricity and fees to the node operators.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

9 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Ok fair enough. I do think it can be used as such, but there is no guarantee. Odds are probably lower than 50%. It may prove to be too valuable of as asset to use as currency

Something will replace the USD as the world standard currency. We seem bound and determined to ruin it by overprinting.

That, more than anything, has been the biggest advantage the US has. Since Breton Woods, our currency has been the global standard of trade and reserves, and we're the only country that can print it. 

[edjr 6,602]

SELL SELL SELL!

[Cdub100 3,918]

23 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

Something will replace the USD as the world standard currency. We seem bound and determined to ruin it by overprinting.

That, more than anything, has been the biggest advantage the US has. Since Breton Woods, our currency has been the global standard of trade and reserves, and we're the only country that can print it. 

China has made that first step with the digital Yan.

Other countries will make their own digital currency including the us. The question is will the Jews... I mean the central banks push the one world currency.

If so there will be major pushback from people on the right. I noted this earlier in this thread.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

37 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

China has made that first step with the digital Yan.

Other countries will make their own digital currency including the us. The question is will the Jews... I mean the central banks push the one world currency.

If so there will be major pushback from people on the right. I noted this earlier in this thread.

China will probably excluded. They can't control bitcoin so they won't be a part of it. Its really a great way to take back control from China. Even Russia sees the importance of bitcoin

[Cdub100 3,918]

Cardano hit $2 today.

This is awesome. I bought the bulk of my Cardano at .19 cents 

Pulling out the good bourbon tonight.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

21 hours ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

China will probably excluded. They can't control bitcoin so they won't be a part of it. Its really a great way to take back control from China. Even Russia sees the importance of bitcoin

I could see them just buying up as much of it as they can.

It used to be huge here. Mining and such. They squashed that hard. 

[vomit 502]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:21 PM, Frozenbeernuts said:

Bitcoin isn't any less tangible than the internet, Google, Facebook, all kinds of purely digital stuff

The difference is that the internet provides utility.  Google and Facebook generate billions in revenue.  A bitcoin does nothing.

[Cdub100 3,918]

9 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

I could see them just buying up as much of it as they can.

It used to be huge here. Mining and such. They squashed that hard. 

From my POV if the China government can't control it they don't want it.

It's why they have their own facebook, amazon, google etc...

It's one thing I admire about the Chinese government they knew they had to create their own version of western companies or they'd become another vassal of the US. Plus it was great for their economy and people.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

12 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

From my POV if the China government can't control it they don't want it.

It's why they have their own facebook, amazon, google etc...

It's one thing I admire about the Chinese government they knew they had to create their own version of western companies or they'd become another vassal of the US. Plus it was great for their economy and people.

That was one reason. The other reason was to keep outside information out. They've done a remarkable job of it given the information age and all...

[Cdub100 3,918]

Just now, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

That was one reason. The other reason was to keep outside information out. They've done a remarkable job of it given the information age and all...

Totally and was one of their primary goals.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

2 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

Totally and was one of their primary goals.

They've been so successful that you can literally show them video of things that happened in the, say, late 80s, and they'll tell you it's fake. Which was of course impossible. 

[Cdub100 3,918]

10 minutes ago, titans&bucs&bearsohmy! said:

They've been so successful that you can literally show them video of things that happened in the, say, late 80s, and they'll tell you it's fake. Which was of course impossible. 

To be honest it's not much better here. Instead of saying its fake people will just call you racist.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,269]

1 hour ago, vomit said:

The difference is that the internet provides utility.  Google and Facebook generate billions in revenue.  A bitcoin does nothing.

I'm assuming this is a troll attempt at this point since we have plenty of arguments that clearly outline bitcoins utility. But I like talking about it so I will give an example of why bitcoin isn't this useless digital entity that people think.

Bitcoin right now is being used as a payment network. If you don't think it has any use as a payment network then neither do PayPal, Venmo etc. Even if you don't want to consider bitcoin the currency itself having any use, you can use fiat on the bitcoin network. Strike app can take any currency and convert it to any other currency using bitcoin. A large bonus is that it only costs .3% where current networks charge between 2.5% and 3.5%. Not only are the lower fees a bonus, but no other network can swap between currencies without running into increasing fees. That right there proves there is a use case

Facebook generates revenue? Only at the expense of their consumers data. You have to be naive to not see how Facebook tries to shape the way people think with their targeted Facebook posts. Bitcoin generates a ton of revenue to miners, and even you can generate user fees by running a full node. Full nodes facilitate the transactions and generate income for the operator, though at a small % per fee. But with enough fees, it can be a genuine income on the side

Bircoin also provides ROI for people who invest in it. Your own government has acknowledged bitcoins importance for generating tax revenue, and there are an increasing amount of people in high places who are waking up to how useful bitcoin really is

We will end on the development of the network and the services built on top of it. The network is improving through things like Lightning Network. Instant transactions for extremely cheap. There are startups galore from people getting into bitcoin and building services for people to use. Its easy to see "digital money" and write it off, but you severely underestimate how many projects and how much money is being dumped into tech and services surround bitcoin. The amount of innovation happening is incredible. And we are just getting started. This is still the beginning.

If digital money turns you off, then you must live in the stone age or are 80 years old. Everything is being run on the internet. Our dollars are transacted across the internet far more than cash in hand, so don't act like the almighty dollar is this safe haven to not be corrupted by being digital.