Cryptocurrency

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

9 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I understand exactly why you’re here lol.
 Okay but when you wait to make a post like that until it crossed 20k, that in fact says you do care about the short term. Otherwise there’s no need to make that post as you’ve already stated it’s going much higher. 

I have posted many times sub 20k so it's not like I disappeared while bitcoin tanked. The people who proclaim its death and point out bitcoin being too volatile refuse to acknowledge that it is volatile to the upside. They also refuse to acknowledge the long term trend, which is the best performing asset of our lifetimes.

Bitcoin has an annualized rate of return of 148%. Why wouldn't someone want to invest in something with that great of a return? I'm pointing out how easily bitcoin just made its owners 30%. A week and a half. Which means it's extremely easy for it to double and better.

I'm gloating a bit, sure, but that's only because of the horrible takes in this thread. I'm not in this for a 30% gain. I'm in this for the 10x+ over the next 2 decades

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

3 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

I have posted many times sub 20k so it's not like I disappeared while bitcoin tanked. The people who proclaim its death and point out bitcoin being too volatile refuse to acknowledge that it is volatile to the upside. They also refuse to acknowledge the long term trend, which is the best performing asset of our lifetimes.

Bitcoin has an annualized rate of return of 148%. Why wouldn't someone want to invest in something with that great of a return? I'm pointing out how easily bitcoin just made its owners 30%. A week and a half. Which means it's extremely easy for it to double and better.

I'm gloating a bit, sure, but that's only because of the horrible takes in this thread. I'm not in this for a 30% gain. I'm in this for the 10x+ over the next 2 decades

Actually you vanished for a long time while it was making its largest downward moves…. But that’s not really my point. My point is when you make a proclamation after it has a short term move up, then you’re full of it when you say you don’t care about short term price movements. What you mean to say is you don’t care about dips. 
 

a lot of stocks have recently made their investors 30% plus gains. GE, American Airlines, etc etc etc. 
 

im not anti Bitcoin as an investment. I’ve said that to death. 
 

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

A push for lightning, which is a bitcoin layer 2 protocol, to be used to combat spam is increasing. Two major reasons spam is so persistent, and even growing, are the costless way spammers can contact people, and because settlement of telecom payments take up to 90 days. Lightning can solve the spam issue in two ways. Provide a cost to spammers to contact people ie you set a fee that non white listed contacts must pay to access your attention, and also instant settlement via lightning network.

People are really sleeping on the immediate settlement aspect of bitcoin. We will see companies shift to bitcoin simply because it is an instant settlement money, and they will not need to wait the 30-90 days it can take to reach final settlement with dollars

Here is link to Lyle Pratt's company that is using lightning to protect people from spammers

https://vida.page/

Here is another link between Preston Pysh and Pyle Pratt's podcast

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Ivm8hDAO4mox8l8kNkHtb?si=WMLhSzJESNmeJH_OEQfa4Q&utm_source=copy-link

[Louie Kelcher 97]

How about an eli5?

What's a spammer?  How do payments via dollars take 90 days?  I can send anyone dollars instantly via Venmo or zelle.  I can send payments via ach from my checking account in 2-3 days.  Where is this 90 days?

Also how does instant settlement work when I have my Bitcoin in cold storage?  

[nobody 2,558]

He's probably talking about business to business transactions taking 30-90 days to settle.  I could see small business wanting to settle credit card transactions more quickly, but I'm also not sure how much the delay is being exaggerated.

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

7 minutes ago, nobody said:

He's probably talking about business to business transactions taking 30-90 days to settle.  I could see small business wanting to settle credit card transactions more quickly, but I'm also not sure how much the delay is being exaggerated.

 

But they delay is not due technology. Banks have the ability to resolve transactions instantly. They build the delay into the transaction to prevent fraud.

[Louie Kelcher 97]

13 minutes ago, nobody said:

He's probably talking about business to business transactions taking 30-90 days to settle.  I could see small business wanting to settle credit card transactions more quickly, but I'm also not sure how much the delay is being exaggerated.

But that's not true either, unless he's somehow talking about a PO to invoice to payment scenario, which is disingenuous, since BTC isn't going to change that.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

7 hours ago, Louie Kelcher said:

How about an eli5?

What's a spammer?  How do payments via dollars take 90 days?  I can send anyone dollars instantly via Venmo or zelle.  I can send payments via ach from my checking account in 2-3 days.  Where is this 90 days?

Also how does instant settlement work when I have my Bitcoin in cold storage?  

Final settlement is different than the money showing up in your account. Final settlement affects business more than us, but it does affect us when depositing checks. It takes a few days to clear.

[Louie Kelcher 97]

1 minute ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Final settlement is different than the money showing up in your account. Final settlement affects business more than us, but it does affect us when depositing checks. It takes a few days to clear.

Right, a few days, sure, but why did you say 90?  It doesn't take 90 days for a check to clear, does it?

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

7 minutes ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Final settlement is different than the money showing up in your account. Final settlement affects business more than us, but it does affect us when depositing checks. It takes a few days to clear.

This is by design and is not a technology limitation.

[nobody 2,558]

Maybe by final settlement, he means from the bank perspective?

Something like they transfer the funds electronically to various entities, but the physical funds aren't transferred to the various banks for some time later?  I can't imagine why people would care about that though. 

I could see the banks themselves caring about that.

[Louie Kelcher 97]

2 minutes ago, nobody said:

Maybe by final settlement, he means from the bank perspective?

Something like they transfer the funds electronically to various entities, but the physical funds aren't transferred to the various banks for some time later?  I can't imagine why people would care about that though. 

I could see the banks themselves caring about that.

I guess this kinda talk is bein spread to pump up the price of BTC again.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

47 minutes ago, Louie Kelcher said:

Right, a few days, sure, but why did you say 90?  It doesn't take 90 days for a check to clear, does it?

Between business it can take that long. Im not saying for money to show up in my account nationally.

Internationally it's a different story. Zero fx fees and instant settlement. You can't do that with the existing system. There are a lot of people who transact globally, especially through remittance, so bitcoin is a game changer in that regard

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

35 minutes ago, Louie Kelcher said:

I guess this kinda talk is bein spread to pump up the price of BTC again.

People have known about bitcoins instant settlement feature for years. It's nothing new, and it won't have any bearing on the short term price. It's an actual benefit for business. Another benefit is avoiding the 2.75 - 3% they pay in credit card tx fees. Lightning network fees are negligible

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

58 minutes ago, Louie Kelcher said:

Right, a few days, sure, but why did you say 90?  It doesn't take 90 days for a check to clear, does it?

Think about this also, you use electricity. They don't send you a bill for a month. Then you send your payment to them after 30 days. So they don't see that money for at least 30 days. It's too cumbersome with dollars to stream that money so it doesn't work. With bitcoin payment can be streamed in a pay as you use way. Maybe this saves the power company money. And maybe they throw an incentive to you to pay as you go

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

A podcast where Erik Hersman, founder of Gridless, talks about how bitcoin mining is expanding the electrical grid infrastructure in Africa. A lot of the energy comes from wind and solar in Africa, which means power generation needs to be over built to deal with the intermittency issues where there is no sun or no wind. This, along with other factors can push the price of electricity well beyond what we pay here in the US, and that's for the areas where there's even electricity. Gridless and other bitcoin mining companies are bringing bitcoin miners to these producers and offering 30% of their profits to the provider in order to use the otherwise stranded energy. This can help bring the price of energy down.

This type of miner placement on already existing generation sites is happening around the world already, especially in Texas.

Gridless is also helping to fund new power generation facilities in areas where there is no electricity at all, while also providing miners on site to take demand immediately. This allows generation facilities to be built in the first place, built larger than expected demand, and help pay off expensive construction costs. Bitcoin mining is providing a massive opportunity to grow electrical grids in places where it wasn't seen as feasible before. Pretty cool stuff.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4ntFvJ9S8Hdh5K1mcPTmTL?si=BojziRDgTRuuycSG1nkdiA

 

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

3 hours ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Think about this also, you use electricity. They don't send you a bill for a month. Then you send your payment to them after 30 days. So they don't see that money for at least 30 days. It's too cumbersome with dollars to stream that money so it doesn't work. With bitcoin payment can be streamed in a pay as you use way. Maybe this saves the power company money. And maybe they throw an incentive to you to pay as you go

Once again you are completely ignoring my posts. 

 

Traditional financial institutions have the technology to process transactions instantly, but they do not. The main reason is to prevent fraud. 

 

What you think of as a bug is actually a feature. You get 5k stolen from your visa you get the money back 99.9 times out of 100. You get 5k stolen in Bitcoin.........

[Cdub100 3,830]

43 minutes ago, MTSkiBum said:

Once again you are completely ignoring my posts. 

 

Traditional financial institutions have the technology to process transactions instantly, but they do not. The main reason is to prevent fraud. 

 

What you think of as a bug is actually a feature. You get 5k stolen from your visa you get the money back 99.9 times out of 100. You get 5k stolen in Bitcoin.........

I'm not trying to get into this slapfest but I agree financial institutions have the technology but they don't use it. In fact they would have to set up a whole new way to send money and they will someday, and it will be blockchain. Bitcoin solved the double spend (fraud) issue.

As for the stolen money that's just insurance. Someone pays me back that 5k. If I have 5k cash stolen from me in the streets nobody is giving me that money back. Same with bitcoin. I would argue it's much hard to steal 5k in bitcoin though.

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

33 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

I'm not trying to get into this slapfest but I agree financial institutions have the technology but they don't use it. In fact they would have to set up a whole new way to send money and they will someday, and it will be blockchain. Bitcoin solved the double spend (fraud) issue.

As for the stolen money that's just insurance. Someone pays me back that 5k. If I have 5k cash stolen from me in the streets nobody is giving me that money back. Same with bitcoin. I would argue it's much hard to steal 5k in bitcoin though.

 

They do not have to setup a new way to do the transfer, banks purposely slow the transactions down to prevent fraud. Cloud databases and API communications across the cloud are incredibly fast, there is nothing inherently slow in the technology behind the banks. In fact for a large number of simultaneous transactions i do not think blockchain has come remotely close to traditional database technology.

 

But yes they do make profits and charge fees though. There is a cost associated with their fraud prevention and the insurance related to the transactions and then of course the profit margin and overhead for the company providing those services.

[Louie Kelcher 97]

34 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

 I would argue it's much hard to steal 5k in bitcoin though.

Not if you put it on an exchange

[Cdub100 3,830]

4 minutes ago, MTSkiBum said:

 

They do not have to setup a new way to do the transfer, banks purposely slow the transactions down to prevent fraud. Cloud databases and API communications across the cloud are incredibly fast, there is nothing inherently slow in the technology behind the banks. In fact for a large number of simultaneous transactions i do not think blockchain has come remotely close to traditional database technology.

 

But yes they do make profits and charge fees though. There is a cost associated with their fraud prevention and the insurance related to the transactions and then of course the profit margin and overhead for the company providing those services.

I disagree. The banks do need a new system. The system that do instant transfers is a 3rd party they banks use. Basically ACH needs a major update.

[Cdub100 3,830]

2 minutes ago, Louie Kelcher said:

Not if you put it on an exchange

Banks get robbed every day. What's your point?

[Louie Kelcher 97]

Just now, Cdub100 said:

Banks get robbed every day. What's your point?

Ever hear of FDIC?

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

5 hours ago, Louie Kelcher said:

Right, a few days, sure, but why did you say 90?  It doesn't take 90 days for a check to clear, does it?

No it does not and would not be legal if it did. 

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

5 hours ago, MTSkiBum said:

This is by design and is not a technology limitation.

Don’t bother. He doesn’t want to get it 

[Cdub100 3,830]

Just now, Louie Kelcher said:

Ever hear of FDIC?

Does FDIC insurance protect your 5k cash in the streets? Does it protect you past the 250k?

I'm not sure what your point is?

[Louie Kelcher 97]

1 minute ago, Cdub100 said:

Does FDIC insurance protect your 5k cash in the streets? Does it protect you past the 250k?

I'm not sure what your point is?

I know.

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

5 hours ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Between business it can take that long. Im not saying for money to show up in my account nationally.

Internationally it's a different story. Zero fx fees and instant settlement. You can't do that with the existing system. There are a lot of people who transact globally, especially through remittance, so bitcoin is a game changer in that regard

No it does not take that long between businesses. 
Yes, I have expertise in this area from the time I spent working in financial audit. 
 

the only time you are looking at 90 days is when you’re dealing with a foreign check that your bank needs to send out for collections and that’s only in some cases. 

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

11 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

Does FDIC insurance protect your 5k cash in the streets? Does it protect you past the 250k?

I'm not sure what your point is?

FDIC insurance is a lie we and the banks tell ourselves. Yes, it exists up to 250k but in reality if banks were to go under it would be a long long time before you’d ever see your money again. 

[Louie Kelcher 97]

Just now, WhiteWonder said:

FDIC insurance is a lie we and the banks tell ourselves. Yes, it exists up to 250k but in reality if banks were to go under it would be a long long time before you’d ever see your money again. 

If my bank gets robbed, does I lose the money in my account?

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

1 minute ago, Louie Kelcher said:

If my bank gets robbed, does I lose the money in my account?

That’s not the same concept as the FDIC insurance on your deposits. 

[Louie Kelcher 97]

Just now, WhiteWonder said:

That’s not the same concept as the FDIC insurance on your deposits. 

My bad, I thought it covered theft as well.

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

2 minutes ago, Louie Kelcher said:

My bad, I thought it covered theft as well.

It has nothing to do with bank robberies.

FDIC gives deposit insurance to people who keep their money in banks. The NCUA does the same for credit unions. It’s all about keeping up our trust in the American banking system and keeping us confident we won’t see a situation like what happened during the Great Depression. Similar to how annuities I believe are protected by insurance guaranty associations at state levels. 

[MTSkiBum 1,620]

1 hour ago, Cdub100 said:

I disagree. The banks do need a new system. The system that do instant transfers is a 3rd party they banks use. Basically ACH needs a major update.

I am not sure what deficencies that Nacha(the company running ACH) has, however the principal behind the service is sound.

A few years ago one of my projects used a service very similar to ACH except in the transportation industry. Our company uses many different transportation companies to move our products around the world: trucking, ships, trains, and rarely even airplanes. It would have been a headache to build an interface to each of our different transportation vendors.  Each of these companies uses different software systems, SAP, Oracle, proprietary, etc and they communicate using different protocols.

This third party company specialized in building interfaces and transforming transportation data between all of the different software systems. We could pass the request to them, and they managed the transforming of the data. I could see why this is especially important in the banking industry. For example, choosing a random small town i worked in Greybull, wyoming has 2 different small local banks: Bank of Greybull and Bighorn Federal Savings Bank.

Small towns around the country are very similar to this. It would be impossible to build an interface to communicate with every single bank due to each banks propietary software systems.

This is why a company that specializes in these types of transactions is important.

 

 

 

Edit, there is even a company that specializes in communications between oilfield companies. Oilfield data uses Energistics WITSML standard to communicate between other oilfield companies.

This is the only way that many companies can communicate because almost all companies design their own software in house, regardless of industry.

https://www.energistics.org/witsml-data-standards/

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

8 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

No it does not take that long between businesses. 
Yes, I have expertise in this area from the time I spent working in financial audit. 
 

the only time you are looking at 90 days is when you’re dealing with a foreign check that your bank needs to send out for collections and that’s only in some cases. 

 

9 hours ago, MTSkiBum said:

Once again you are completely ignoring my posts. 

 

Traditional financial institutions have the technology to process transactions instantly, but they do not. The main reason is to prevent fraud. 

 

What you think of as a bug is actually a feature. You get 5k stolen from your visa you get the money back 99.9 times out of 100. You get 5k stolen in Bitcoin.........

Maybe some of the system is trying to prevent fraud, but that's not the entire reason for the delay. I also agree that a lot of the friction is on purpose to keep the payment system advantage in their favor. Why is fx such a racket?

Bitcoin definitely puts a lot more control, but also a lot more responsibility on individuals when it comes to holding their money. Either someone has the bitcoin or they don't. There is no faking it. Bitcoin security is incredible as long as someone takes the proper precautions to store their seed phrase and other passwords.

One new bitcoin implementation that hasn't even reached BIP status is OP_VAULT. It adds another level of security where you can set a time lock on your bitcoin. If someone attempts to send your bitcoin, you would receive a notification and have x amount of time to move it to the recovery address. This is mainly for your savings and not every day spend money

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

8 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

No it does not take that long between businesses. 
Yes, I have expertise in this area from the time I spent working in financial audit. 
 

the only time you are looking at 90 days is when you’re dealing with a foreign check that your bank needs to send out for collections and that’s only in some cases. 

30 - 90 days is an accurate number. Not sure what you disagree with because it can't take that long. 30 isn't even debatable.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

I don't agree with the idea of adding friction being a good thing. More efficiency and less power in the banks hands is a good thing.

Something is seriously wrong with the system. Do you guys agree? Or do we just wait until the Fed releases the dollar CBDC version 1 and then go along with it?

[Alias Detective 1,389]

15 hours ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

Between business it can take that long. Im not saying for money to show up in my account nationally.

Internationally it's a different story. Zero fx fees and instant settlement. You can't do that with the existing system. There are a lot of people who transact globally, especially through remittance, so bitcoin is a game changer in that regard

30-60-90 days. It’s not because of da banks

[Alias Detective 1,389]

1 hour ago, Frozenbeernuts said:

30 - 90 days is an accurate number. Not sure what you disagree with because it can't take that long. 30 isn't even debatable.

That’s not a bank issue.

[Frozenbeernuts 2,114]

23 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

That’s not a bank issue.

It's an issue regardless, that bitcoin fixes