Police Kill Another

[Alias Detective 1,459]

Just now, Engorgeous George said:

Do you believe they had probable cause to suspect that?  Any reliable information? Could they have articulated a reasonable suspicion on the information known to them at that time such that a court would have agreed their suspicion was reasonable?

I get your points.  I like to side with the good people.  Not the punks.  My experience and history tells me the good people are usually in the right.  As stated before, time will tell.

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

2 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

I get your points.  I like to side with the good people.  Not the punks.  My experience and history tells me the good people are usually in the right.  As stated before, time will tell.

Do we know this guy was bad and a punk though?  He looked like it but doesn't mean he was.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

BTW, I agree the dead fellow might have been hiding drugs he thought would be inevitable found.  The pill may have been prescription, as he said, or it may have been illegal narcotics explaining both his nervousness nad his mistake as to vehicles.  At that juncture it was all to speculative to act upon.

 

Now had there been allegations drugs were being dealt at that school by someone matching the suspects discription.  Had the police witnessed some hand to hand transactions, even if unclear as to exactly what had transpired could they then have articulated reasonable suspicion he may have been dealing and therefore concealing evidence.  Yeah now we are getting closer to P.C. 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Do we know this guy was bad and a punk though?  He looked like it but doesn't mean he was.

I would hate to be judged on my disheveled look right now.  Working remotely I don't clean up until later in the day.  My clothes are rumbled, I am unshaven, and my hair is as wild as Albert Einstein's.  

[League Champion 1,926]

11 minutes ago, Gladiators said:

The guy wasn't cooperative.  He made it clear that he doesn't like cops.  The police asked him if he had a weapon and it wasn't a direct "No" response.  Then he starts pulling stuff out of his pocket, puts something in his mouth, and reaches inside his coat pocket.  They pull him out and he's combative

That will get you killed every time. Case closed, NEXT

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

6 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

I get your points.  I like to side with the good people.  Not the punks.  My experience and history tells me the good people are usually in the right.  As stated before, time will tell.

I tend strongly to agree with your experience and history.  I just need leo officers to be aware of their experience, but to overcome their experience to follow the law and their training. Their experience should provide them caution, but their training should guide their actions.

 

BTW, I am not at all certain I could keep my experiences from guiding my behavior under such circumstances.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,339]

1 minute ago, Engorgeous George said:

I tend strongly to agree with your experience and history.  I just need leo officers to be aware of their experience, but to overcome their experience to follow the law and their training. Their experience should provide them caution, but their training should guide their actions.

 

BTW, I am not at all certain I could keep my experiences from guiding my behavior under such circumstances.

Yeah, unfortunately, LEO's only have milliseconds/seconds to make a decision or it could cost them THEIR life.  Reaching into your jacket in a tense situation is absolutely a way to get yourself killed for something stupid.   I don't understand why they just don't follow directions.

[Alias Detective 1,459]

5 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

I would hate to be judged on my disheveled look right now.  Working remotely I don't clean up until later in the day.  My clothes are rumbled, I am unshaven, and my hair is as wild as Albert Einstein's.  

Appearance wasn’t the only reason I concluded he was a punk.  Again, I have damn near 50 years of experience and I’ll be damned if I will go against my instincts if placed in these situations.  
 

Let’s see what transpires.

[League Champion 1,926]

1 minute ago, Engorgeous George said:

I tend strongly to agree with your experience and history.  I just need leo officers to be aware of their experience, but to overcome their experience to follow the law and their training. Their experience should provide them caution, but their training should guide their actions.

 

BTW, I am not at all certain I could keep my experiences from guiding my behavior under such circumstances.

You're not wrong but what are the police officers supposed to do, wait till they're stabbed or shot to confirm his intentions? The guy was reaching for anything that he could get his hands on. All he had to do was comply, if he did that he'd still be alive and probably back on the streets right now. 

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

2 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Yeah, unfortunately, LEO's only have milliseconds/seconds to make a decision or it could cost them THEIR life.  Reaching into your jacket in a tense situation is absolutely a way to get yourself killed for something stupid.   I don't understand why they just don't follow directions.

The direction was less than clear.  Clear direction would have helped avoid this outcome.

[Fireballer 2,677]

1 hour ago, Engorgeous George said:

A dumb person got confused by cars that all look the same and got into one which resembled his, instantly recognixzed his mistake, exited, and then got into the correct car.  i get that folks are concerned when it comes to their kids and unusual things occurring  around their kids.  I mean there are kidnappings, car jackings, and school shootings in the news, but innocent mistakes do occur.  The situation was static and controlled when the police arrived and their poor investigatory technigues, their poor inquiry, lead to the situation where they went for a forcible arrest without probable cause and then shot an innocent person who was prostrate before them when they had multiple officers available to control the one individual.  They went up the force continuum far too precipitously. In my opinion this was a criminal application of force.  They are definitely civilly liable and should be dismissed from employment and criminally charged.

 

BTW, like the original poster i too strongly support the police whenever i reasonable can do so.

Don’t get probable cause and reasonable suspicion confused.  Probable cause is used when its probable that a specific person has committed a specific crime and PC is necessary for actual custodial arrest.  Reasonable suspicion is really not more than a hunch based on the totality of circumstances known to the officer that a crime may have been committed by someone, but not a specific person per se.  That’s enough for investigative detention.  I think a reasonable officer, based on his mannerisms, speech, getting in the wrong car, and placing a pill in his mouth unannounced would be conditions to detain him.  After that, things went to sh!t.

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

18 minutes ago, League Champion said:

You're not wrong but what are the police officers supposed to do, wait till they're stabbed or shot to confirm his intentions? The guy was reaching for anything that he could get his hands on. All he had to do was comply, if he did that he'd still be alive and probably back on the streets right now. 

I think it could've all been avoided if they didn't drag him from the car.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,339]

18 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

The direction was less than clear.  Clear direction would have helped avoid this outcome.

This is also true which is why you just keep your hands up in the air and get on the ground.  No one should have to die over these mistakes regardless if they're a POS or not.

[League Champion 1,926]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think it could've all been avoided if they didn't drag him from the car.

In hindsight, but at that point he's not following orders and acting very suspicious. They had to get him out of the car at that time. I think it was appropriate force. 

 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

1 minute ago, League Champion said:

In hindsight, but at that point he's not following orders and acting very suspicious. They had to get him out of the car at that time. I think it was appropriate force. 

 

What orders didn't he follow?  I thought all they asked was if he had a weapon on him.

[lod001 1,345]

When stupid people collide. Dumb cops and dumb guy.

Crump checked the name, "Ward, Hmm, maybe some $ in this for me" 'Fock, he's white'. Instructs driver to turn the limo around.

CNN & MSNBC set racism teams in motion. 'Fock, he's white'. 

[Alias Detective 1,459]

@The Real timschochet

 

follow my posts in this thread. You will see I have the same stance regardless of color you cocksucker!

[Horseman 2,684]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Here’s the issue: he put something in his mouth. Perps often do that to destroy evidence. But whatever he put in his mouth was not a threat to the cop. At best it was some drugs. BFD. No need to roll around on the ground with a guy for that. Cops need and get a lot of leeway when it comes to use of force when they are threatened. This wasn’t the case. Bad use of force.Now  I can’t see what went on on the ground. Maybe there was a struggle for the weapon.  But if we blame people for not cooperating with police, we also have to call out police for escalating the use of force when it’s just not necessary. Kick ass when warranted. But it has to be warranted. I couldn’t imagine getting nuts because some guy put something in his mouth. I never did. 

At 2:42 in the video the guy gets on top of the officer.  So at that point the officer was threatened/endangered and it's hard to dispute what the officer says, “headbutted my nose and then tried grabbing at my stuff”.

Now, as you point out, how the officer acted up to that point seems questionable.  But it started off with the police being called out about a suspicious man trying to open car doors. One person reported the man may be “on something” and acted “aggressive” with one car.  And I know around those parts drug possession within the limits of a school is a big deal to the police and the community.  

The bigger issue to me is that the cop got out from under the guy and stood up with the guy still on the ground.  Could have just billy clubbed his asss out instead of shooting him.  If on the other hand the other cop shot him when the guy was on top of the cop that would have been justified.

Tough call.  (I just read the one report by the Denver Post)

[League Champion 1,926]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

What orders didn't he follow?  I thought all they asked was if he had a weapon on him.

Do you have any weapons, I don't think so. 

WTF is that? You know if you have a weapon on you. 

Then he starts reaching all over the car, the officer says "stop moving" then finally the officer yanks him out of the car, he's still reaching and resisting, the officer orders him to stop, he doesn't. 

Bang bang, that nice officer get to go home.to his beautiful family that night, safe & sound. 

Matty Meth Boy is dead because he couldn't follow simple instructions. 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

Just now, League Champion said:

Do you have any weapons, I don't think so. 

WTF is that? You know if you have a weapon on you. 

Then he starts reaching all over the car, the officer says "stop moving" then finally the officer yanks him out of the car, he's still reaching and resisting, the officer orders him to stop, he doesn't. 

Bang bang, that nice officer get to go home.to his beautiful family that night, safe & sound. 

Matty Meth Boy is dead because he couldn't follow simple instructions. 

He answered the weapon question by saying he might have his pocket knife on him.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,339]

6 minutes ago, Alias Detective said:

@The Real timschochet

 

follow my posts in this thread. You will see I have the same stance regardless of color you cocksucker!

 

[League Champion 1,926]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

He answered the weapon question by saying he might have his pocket knife on him.

All he had to do was follow directions and STOP RESISTING. He didn't and that's why he's worm food. 

He clearly resisted. 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

Just now, League Champion said:

All he had to do was follow directions and STOP RESISTING. He didn't and that's why he's worm food. 

He clearly resisted. 

I agree.  It never should've gotten to that point either.  Both can be true.  The whole situation was handled poorly.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,339]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I agree.  It never should've gotten to that point either.  Both can be true.  The whole situation was handled poorly.

100%, but the American Left has been teaching a whole generation or two to not listen to Police Officers.  #RESIST 

This is the end result which is a tragedy.

[Patented Phil 1,469]

Not important, cuz white.

[TimHauck 3,307]

6 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

100%, but the American Left has been teaching a whole generation or two to not listen to Police Officers.  #RESIST 

lol, no they're not.

Sad story.  Both the dude and the cop(s) focked up.  Actually agree with HT.

[League Champion 1,926]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I agree.  It never should've gotten to that point either.  Both can be true.  The whole situation was handled poorly.

I get your point but I don't think it was in this case. The crackhead was obviously high as F, was just seen trying to break into cars and acting in a very suspicious, uneasy manner. 

Shooting the man is up for debate, if the officer feared for his life then yes, he did the right thing. I don't think this was a clear case of Police brutality or murder. 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

3 minutes ago, League Champion said:

The crackhead was obviously high as F, was just seen trying to break into cars

That's just speculation though.

[TimHauck 3,307]

Did they say which car it was he tried to get in?  The car he was in and the one right in front were both white SUV's, could see that being an easy mistake to make if you're not paying attention.

[League Champion 1,926]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That's just speculation though.

C'mon, my man was Methed the hell out 

[League Champion 1,926]

Just now, TimHauck said:

Did they say which car it was he tried to get in?  The car he was in and the one right in front were both white SUV's, could see that being an easy mistake to make if you're not paying attention.

He was apparently trying to get into a bunch of different cars. 

[Hawkeye21 2,454]

Just now, League Champion said:

C'mon, my man was Methed the hell out 

He looked like it, I agree.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

46 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Don’t get probable cause and reasonable suspicion confused.  Probable cause is used when its probable that a specific person has committed a specific crime and PC is necessary for actual custodial arrest.  Reasonable suspicion is really not more than a hunch based on the totality of circumstances known to the officer that a crime may have been committed by someone, but not a specific person per se.  That’s enough for investigative detention.  I think a reasonable officer, based on his mannerisms, speech, getting in the wrong car, and placing a pill in his mouth unannounced would be conditions to detain him.  After that, things went to sh!t.

Do i have them confused or conflated?  Perhaps.  Or prhaps i did not sufficiently articulate the differences.  I would maintain that an officer's hunches or suspicions have to be butressed by something more, some evidentiary observations.  The best practice to determine that is to try to articulate the suspicion and if the articulation does not contain some observable fact or evidence it is not reasoanble when the actions the officer interprets as suspicious have other, equally reasonable and non-suspicious explanations.    

[TimHauck 3,307]

31 minutes ago, League Champion said:

He was apparently trying to get into a bunch of different cars. 

If true, that would suggest he was up to something more nefarious, still not worth killing him over though.

[League Champion 1,926]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

If true, that would suggest he was up to something more nefarious, still not worth killing him over though.

That's not why he was killed. He was killed for not following instruction 

[listen2me 23 1,952]

Posted in wrong thread and deleted.   But in short where is gutter and the gang?  No racism here to yell so not worth the time? 

[listen2me 23 1,952]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

He was just sitting in the car and doing nothing wrong.  The police ripped him out of the car after he took an anxiety pill(from what I read.)  I don't know why they felt they needed to pull him out of the car and wrestle him to the ground.

Let me start off by saying this is bad policing.   Guy shouldn't be wrestling cops but that was unnecessary for a couple reasons.  And they were terrible with communication. 

That said what is with people and their benzos?  Is it like a pacifier for people? Oh you are nervous so you pop a benzo like a tic tac? It isnt going to kick in that fast.  What you just have a loose pills on your pocket to pop all day long? They may be his pills but they still get sold like illegal drugs.  He doesn't need heroin on him to be selling drugs. 

Bold move to be reaching around in pockets and whip out a pill and pop it with no drink.  Bizarre.   But some people are indeed addicted to benzos.  Hr may of not even noticed what he was doing if he is a benzo junkie.

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

53 minutes ago, League Champion said:

That's not why he was killed. He was killed for not following instruction 

He was killed because the officers failed to control the situation.

[Fireballer 2,677]

6 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

He was killed because the officers failed to control the situation.

Yes.  Two officers should absolutely be able to control him once they hit the ground

[Engorgeous George 2,332]

Controll of the situation starts upon first verbal contact by putting the person at ease, giving very clear and specific directions, and not proceeding beyond the initial reason for contact until the officer has established rapport and has situated the person in a safe positon for the subsequebnt interview including the first and most important cursory pat down for weapons only, for officer safety, not a more thorough patdown for evidence of contraban.  

 

Fishing for contrband leads to the most problems in citizen/police interactions, and for what marginal benefit.  Those matters should not take on a sense of urgency in a cops mind.  they are not earth-shattering and certainly should not be life-ending.

 

Good community policing means being a presence, but not an oppressive one.  Sometimes you have to let the little things go, and in the presence of children that is doubly so.  That was no venue for a shoot-out.