Bill Belichick is a Facade. Not a good coach!

[IGotWorms 3,315]

2 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

A terrible division didn’t hurt. 

For 20 years? Don’t think that fully checks out 

[justforbeer 39]

On 10/27/2023 at 6:59 AM, Hardcore troubadour said:

A terrible division didn’t hurt. 

That is a fact!

[seafoam1 1,879]

1 minute ago, justforbeer said:

That is a fact!

Raiders Chargers Broncos.. oh my.

[justforbeer 39]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:56 AM, IGotWorms said:

Wrong, ‘01-‘04 was dominated by defense, the running game, and diamond in the rough players that Belichick found and revived. Brady was important for gotta-have-it clutch plays, but he was not the primary engine of those teams.

2014-2018 was mostly Brady, yes. But you must be too young to remember the earlier years.

Too young, I am one of the oldest members of FF today. 
Clearly, you are not looking at the stats from 2001 to 2004.

in those years, the offense was #6,10,12&4. Ranked. Avg #8

defense was the #6,17,1,2. Avg #6/7

in 2003 and 2004 Super Bowls, it was high scoring. 32 to 29 against Carolina. Tom Brady - 350 yards and three touchdowns.

The 2004 Super Bowl, 24 to 21 and the defense allowed McNabb to throw for over 350 yards and 3 touchdowns.

The defense was good, but not the greatest. It wasn’t about coaching as much as it was about the players ability.

again, if you’re the coach and you have a bunch of talented players, then you’re going to do well. 
 

it was not BB. It was Brady, and it was every year that Tom was playing for the patriots.  

[justforbeer 39]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:27 AM, Hardcore troubadour said:

Won 11 games in 2008 when Brady was out for the season in game one. Not garbage. 

Yes, they won 11 games. And they didn’t make the playoffs! I wouldn’t call that a successful year just a good year, which was luck more than anything.
how do you think they would’ve done if Brady was playing…… uhhhh, they would’ve won the Super Bowl! 2007 they went 16-0 and should’ve won the Super Bowl but got snakebitten by the Giants beating BB’s defense! That was simply the greatest offense ever to play football in 07. 
 

Belichick let them down that year….

[Nomad99 408]

30 minutes ago, justforbeer said:

That is a fact!

No, it isn't. Look up the numbers.....its been proven that it's not the case.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

On 10/28/2023 at 1:06 PM, Nomad99 said:

No, it isn't. Look up the numbers.....its been proven that it's not the case.

Lol.  The best QB in the division for the twenty years of Pats dominance was Chad Pennington. Ooooh.  

[Thornton Melon 544]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:55 PM, IGotWorms said:

For 20 years? Don’t think that fully checks out 

It doesn't...I've posted this here a few years ago, but from 2009-2019, the Dolphins, Jets and Bills had the 2nd best winning percentage in non-division games compared to the #2, 3 & 4 teams in the other NFL divisions.

[justforbeer 39]

Ha, and now runner up for another coach who benefitted from BRADY.

McDaniels, (Now Fired) another failed guy who could do nothing without TOM at the helm.

 

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Rumor is he’s going to be “traded” to the commanders after the season. Probably just a rumor though

[Nomad99 408]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:03 AM, Thornton Melon said:

It doesn't...I've posted this here a few years ago, but from 2009-2019, the Dolphins, Jets and Bills had the 2nd best winning percentage in non-division games compared to the #2, 3 & 4 teams in the other NFL divisions.

The argument doesn't have merit....but haters gonna hate.

[Showboat 145]

The real question is who is a good coach?  Lombardi?  Where would he rank without Starr, Hornung and Taylor?  Noll? He didn't fair so well after the Steel Curtain got old and Bradshaw retired.  Landry?  Ditto in the post-Staubach era.  Would Bill Walsh be considered a great coach without Montana and Rice?  Shula wasn't able to win it all with Marino for nearly 20 years - is he an even worse coach than BB?  Gibbs is an interesting case in that he won three titles with 3 (or 4) different QBs, but those teams were built around the Hogs.  Jimmy Johnson built the juggernaut Cowboys that even Switzer couldn't screw up, but he wasn't very successful in his later stint with the Dolphins.  Reid's Eagles couldn't break through - would he even be in the conversation if not for Mahomes?  It is silly to think that any coach could have success without great players.  I believe it was Parcells who would say that you are what your record says you are.  The sustained success of BB is unprecedented for any coach, especially in the era of free agency.

[kcBlitzkrieg 17]

11 minutes ago, Showboat said:

The real question is who is a good coach?  Lombardi?  Where would he rank without Starr, Hornung and Taylor?  Noll? He didn't fair so well after the Steel Curtain got old and Bradshaw retired.  Landry?  Ditto in the post-Staubach era.  Would Bill Walsh be considered a great coach without Montana and Rice?  Shula wasn't able to win it all with Marino for nearly 20 years - is he an even worse coach than BB?  Gibbs is an interesting case in that he won three titles with 3 (or 4) different QBs, but those teams were built around the Hogs.  Jimmy Johnson built the juggernaut Cowboys that even Switzer couldn't screw up, but he wasn't very successful in his later stint with the Dolphins.  Reid's Eagles couldn't break through - would he even be in the conversation if not for Mahomes?  It is silly to think that any coach could have success without great players.  I believe it was Parcells who would say that you are what your record says you are.  The sustained success of BB is unprecedented for any coach, especially in the era of free agency.

 Good points.... I believe separating the era's into pre & post modern Free agency is one of the better ways to look at this.  1993 was the mark of this and those Cowboys teams and Young's Super Bowl winning Niners were the last of that era's great teams.  Everything changed after that, parity is the name of the game these days and unless you have an all time great like Brady or Mahomes paired up with a top tier strategy mind you have no chance of a dynasty type of run.   

[kcBlitzkrieg 17]

2 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

Rumor is he’s going to be “traded” to the commanders after the season. Probably just a rumor though

Don't forget, Skins owner Josh Harris was with the Sixers when they did their tank job, I mean, "trust the process" rebuild.  

They be salivating to get Caleb Williams under center there in DC....

[seafoam1 1,879]

10 minutes ago, kcBlitzkrieg said:

Don't forget, Skins owner Josh Harris was with the Sixers when they did their tank job, I mean, "trust the process" rebuild.  

They be salivating to get Caleb Williams under center there in DC....

I just pray someone takes Williams before the Bears do. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

Parcells won two SB’s without a HOF QB. Tom Flores too. Gibbs won 3. 

[RoadLizard 73]

On 10/26/2023 at 7:09 PM, seafoam1 said:

Brady by a mile over Mahomes. 

Yeah, no. Brady had a LOT go his way.  A lot.  He was on the receiving end of extreme, fluky luck(Tuck rule, fumbled interception in Chargers title game, Seattle and Atlanta's moronic play calling, etc.) and some "suspect" behavior by his team/organization.   Its OK -  you're one of those people that just see SB rings and thats all you care about.  Its silly but you do you.

So, in your world, Dilfer >>>> Marino, Kelly, Fouts, Tarkenton, etc.   Cant have it both ways.

[Ray_T 591]

2 hours ago, RoadLizard said:

you're one of those people that just see SB rings and thats all you care about.

well, superbowl rings are the goal of every player and coach.   its not a terrible standard to go by.

sure stats are good too, but both matter.  arguably superbowl rings count more.   If building a team I'd take the clutch QB who steps up his game when it matters anyday over the guy who has good stats but doesnt seem to have another gear when the playoff game is on the line.

[justforbeer 39]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:29 PM, Showboat said:

The real question is who is a good coach?  Lombardi?  Where would he rank without Starr, Hornung and Taylor?  Noll? He didn't fair so well after the Steel Curtain got old and Bradshaw retired.  Landry?  Ditto in the post-Staubach era.  Would Bill Walsh be considered a great coach without Montana and Rice?  Shula wasn't able to win it all with Marino for nearly 20 years - is he an even worse coach than BB?  Gibbs is an interesting case in that he won three titles with 3 (or 4) different QBs, but those teams were built around the Hogs.  Jimmy Johnson built the juggernaut Cowboys that even Switzer couldn't screw up, but he wasn't very successful in his later stint with the Dolphins.  Reid's Eagles couldn't break through - would he even be in the conversation if not for Mahomes?  It is silly to think that any coach could have success without great players.  I believe it was Parcells who would say that you are what your record says you are.  The sustained success of BB is unprecedented for any coach, especially in the era of free agency.

Well,

Now you almost got there!

coaches are not as important as we perceive them to be.

ultimately that is the true point. 

[Showboat 145]

9 hours ago, justforbeer said:

coaches are not as important as we perceive them to be.

ultimately that is the true point. 

Well, that's very different from saying Belichick is not a good coach.

[crackills 19]

Coaches are definitely important. 

Look at all the terrible coaches that got replaced and teams turned around quickly.

They are responsible for everything from drafting to installing O and D systems and weekly game plan. 

Bill's teams  performed at a high level even mostly devoid of talent outside of QB

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Pretty good article at ESPN on how the Patriots have gotten here under Belichick: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38884214/fire-bill-belichick-bench-mac-jones-next-2023-patriots-lost-season

Pretty good reminder too of how he’s actually done since Brady left.

2020 - rolled out cam newton’s corpse at the helm of a shell of a team, still had solid year

2021 - rookie QB (who, it turns out, fockin sucks), made playoffs 

2022 - disaster of a year on offense but still competitive 

This year, though, has been atrocious.

Personally I think he has to go because he simply cannot adapt as he needs to at this point.

[RoadLizard 73]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:29 PM, Showboat said:

The real question is who is a good coach?  Lombardi?  Where would he rank without Starr, Hornung and Taylor?  Noll? He didn't fair so well after the Steel Curtain got old and Bradshaw retired.  Landry?  Ditto in the post-Staubach era.  Would Bill Walsh be considered a great coach without Montana and Rice?  Shula wasn't able to win it all with Marino for nearly 20 years - is he an even worse coach than BB?  Gibbs is an interesting case in that he won three titles with 3 (or 4) different QBs, but those teams were built around the Hogs.  Jimmy Johnson built the juggernaut Cowboys that even Switzer couldn't screw up, but he wasn't very successful in his later stint with the Dolphins.  Reid's Eagles couldn't break through - would he even be in the conversation if not for Mahomes?  It is silly to think that any coach could have success without great players.  I believe it was Parcells who would say that you are what your record says you are.  The sustained success of BB is unprecedented for any coach, especially in the era of free agency.

This same quote could be extrapolated to "who are really the best QBs" also.  No successful QB has EVER won a damned thing by themselves and the position continues to get WAY too much credit for winning and WAY too much disdain for losing.  Team sport, kids.  Brady knob-lickers avoid this fact.  If Brady had been on the Browns or Lions during those years.... dudew would have ended up selling insurance.  Please.  Manning didnt win until the defense and running game got sorted.  Neither did Elway.  Marino never won due to these things lacking.  I could go on and on with factual data but you get the point.

There is also a luck component here that tends to get overlooked.  Brady is one of the luckiest QBs ever.  Tuck rules, throwing game ending picks only to have the defender stripped of the ball, Seabags and Falcons with retarded offensive play calls, and on and on.  Again, more facts. 

 

[justforbeer 39]

9 minutes ago, RoadLizard said:

This same quote could be extrapolated to "who are really the best QBs" also.  No successful QB has EVER won a damned thing by themselves and the position continues to get WAY too much credit for winning and WAY too much disdain for losing.  Team sport, kids.  Brady knob-lickers avoid this fact.  If Brady had been on the Browns or Lions during those years.... dudew would have ended up selling insurance.  Please.  Manning didnt win until the defense and running game got sorted.  Neither did Elway.  Marino never won due to these things lacking.  I could go on and on with factual data but you get the point.

There is also a luck component here that tends to get overlooked.  Brady is one of the luckiest QBs ever.  Tuck rules, throwing game ending picks only to have the defender stripped of the ball, Seabags and Falcons with retarded offensive play calls, and on and on.  Again, more facts. 

 

Hello Brady hater. Clearly you have no respect for the greatest quarterback ever.
this shows in your comments about how lucky he is, and that he is not as valuable. He was the reason why they won.

He also proved that he didn’t need a Belichick as he won in Tampa the next year.

aside from Brady, any quarterback that has played under Belichick has been put in the grave by him.

he is completely lost in his own mind. Always about defense. He was never a great coach. He was a good defensive coordinator.

[RoadLizard 73]

21 hours ago, justforbeer said:

Hello Brady hater. Clearly you have no respect for the greatest quarterback ever.
this shows in your comments about how lucky he is, and that he is not as valuable. He was the reason why they won.

He also proved that he didn’t need a Belichick as he won in Tampa the next year.

aside from Brady, any quarterback that has played under Belichick has been put in the grave by him.

he is completely lost in his own mind. Always about defense. He was never a great coach. He was a good defensive coordinator.

You do you, my man. Never said he wasn’t valuable, I’m just using logic as in this is a TEAM sport.  A lot has to come together in any SB run.  So, they ONLY won because of Brady? I see. I forgot how many sacks, picks and all the blocking he did.  Amazing, LOL.  He won in Tampa 100% because of the defense. He threw THREE picks in the second half of the Green Bay playoff game and almost handed that back to them or they’d have been out of the playoffs.  But, you know, I don’t want to muddle the hysterics with facts and stuff. All good. :).

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

On 11/13/2023 at 1:24 PM, IGotWorms said:

Personally I think he has to go because he simply cannot adapt as he needs to at this point.

Not buying it.  He won a Super Bowl 6 years ago.  You're going to need to tell me how they game changed in the last 6 seasons, that is vastly different than it was in 2018.

Ok, so this year is "atrocious", just 2 years ago he made the playoffs (doesn't seem like a guy who can't adapt to me), with the guy who's their QB now.  So what?  Since being in New England, this will be the first time he's missed the playoffs in back-to-back seasons.  He's going to have a top 5 pick (#3 right now), in a draft that looks to have a LOT of top 5 QB prospects.  I see no downside in letting the 3rd most winning coach and most winning SB coach, in NFL history, take a crack and landing a franchise QB.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

1 hour ago, RoadLizard said:

You do you, my man. Never said he wasn’t valuable, I’m just using logic as in this is a TEAM sport.  A lot has to come together in any SB run.  So, they ONLY won because of Brady? I see. I forgot how many sacks, picks and all the blocking he did.  Amazing, LOL.  He won in Tampa 100% because of the defense. He threw THREE picks in the second half of the Green Bay playoff game and almost handed that back to them or they’d have been out of the playoffs.  But, you know, I don’t want to muddle the hysterics with facts and stuff. All good. :).

You're so wrong on this, that it's not even funny.  The dude put up 31 points (28 before his first interception), and that said defense you're giving credit to, already had given up 17 points.  All 3 interceptions had Green Bay starting on their own 32, 19, & 24... not inside Tampa's territory.  The Packers needed to make long drives to put points on the board... and they did once.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

52 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Not buying it.  He won a Super Bowl 6 years ago.  You're going to need to tell me how they game changed in the last 6 seasons, that is vastly different than it was in 2018.

Ok, so this year is "atrocious", just 2 years ago he made the playoffs (doesn't seem like a guy who can't adapt to me), with the guy who's their QB now.  So what?  Since being in New England, this will be the first time he's missed the playoffs in back-to-back seasons.  He's going to have a top 5 pick (#3 right now), in a draft that looks to have a LOT of top 5 QB prospects.  I see no downside in letting the 3rd most winning coach and most winning SB coach, in NFL history, take a crack and landing a franchise QB.

Yeah that’s a fair counterpoint.

But personally, I think he’s lost his touch. It happens at 70+

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

1 minute ago, IGotWorms said:

Yeah that’s a fair counterpoint.

But personally, I think he’s lost his touch. It happens at 70+

Holy crap, he's 70?  LOL, I never even thought about that.  That could most certainly be a factor.

[justforbeer 39]

He never valued offense like he does Defense.

BB may have just destroyed another quarterback’s career.

Mac Jones is a solid QB. He had limited offensive weapons and horrible offense of playcalling.

 

with all that’s been said. The fact is he’s no good now and needs to go.