If you are a male that dates a biological man, are you gay?

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

12 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Tim, societal norms are widely accepted as good and correct. It’s never been seen that way.  It’s always been derogatory.  Just because it may have been used more frequently by idiots, doesn’t make it a norm. 

Societal norm is whatever normal is. It has nothing to do with “good and correct”, which changes all the time. The n word was used normally by millions of Americans for years, not just by idiots. 

[Fireballer 2,642]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Societal norm is whatever normal is. It has nothing to do with “good and correct”, which changes all the time. The n word was used normally by millions of Americans for years, not just by idiots. 

As usual, your take is spot on.  Comparing the use of man/woman, which has been used throughout all of recorded history, being the same as the N word is absolutely a great analogy.  

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

Just now, Fireballer said:

As usual, your take is spot on.  Comparing the use of man/woman, which has been used throughout all of recorded history, being the same as the N word is absolutely a great analogy.  

It is not the same. It has never been the same. I would like it, someday, to be the same. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

Just so we're clear... I can change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm a woman.  The "Woke" crowd would stand behind me and say that everyone should call me a woman and participate in everyday life as woman.  But if I change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm black, the "Woke" crowd would call me racist.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,099]

1 minute ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Just so we're clear... I can change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm a woman.  The "Woke" crowd would stand behind me and say that everyone should call me a woman and participate in everyday life as woman.  But if I change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm black, the "Woke" crowd would call me racist.

Correct.  That is how liberal delusion works.

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

4 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Just so we're clear... I can change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm a woman.  The "Woke" crowd would stand behind me and say that everyone should call me a woman and participate in everyday life as woman.  But if I change my looks (make-up and such), and clothes and say I'm black, the "Woke" crowd would call me racist.

Huge difference. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,099]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

Huge difference. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. 

Yeah, we know.  It's a mental illness. We've been saying that the entire time.

[Strike 5,538]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Huge difference. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. 

Rachel Dolezal thinks she's black.  How is  that any different?  She just doesn't have a fancy name like "Racial Dysphoria" to describe her condition.  Other than that her circumstances are exactly the same as someone who believes they were born the wrong physical sex.

[Fireballer 2,642]

26 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It is not the same. It has never been the same. I would like it, someday, to be the same. 

No it won’t ever be the same.  The N word is regarded how it is because it’s insulting and racist.  There literally no reason to change the definition of man or woman.  None.  

[SUXBNME 1,499]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:48 PM, TheNewGirl said:

 

I am sure I would have flings or friends with benefits, 

[Strike 5,538]

3 minutes ago, SUXBNME said:

By benefits she means free oil changes

[SUXBNME 1,499]

Just now, Strike said:

By benefits she means free oil changes

Oh.  Well forget it then.

[TheNewGirl 1,489]

2 minutes ago, SUXBNME said:

Oh.  Well forget it then.

My class reunion is at Jan's this year.  Being 100% serious. 

[jerryskids 6,792]

38 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Huge difference. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. 

@squistiontells us that not every trans person has gender dysphoria.  I personally think that makes them fake trans, but that's just my intelligent opinion.   

[TheNewGirl 1,489]

35 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

@squistiontells us that not every trans person has gender dysphoria.  I personally think that makes them fake trans, but that's just my intelligent opinion.   

DSM5 says that they have to have those feels for at least 6 months to have gender dysphoria. I am shocked that it's only 6 months. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Huge difference. Gender dysphoria is a real thing. 

ETA... @EternalShinyAndChrome (post), and @Strike (post), beat me to it.

[MLCKAA 574]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

It is not the same. It has never been the same. I would like it, someday, to be the same. 

I haven’t read this whole thread, so I’m apologizing in advance if I’ve misunderstood something.  Having said that, are you saying that you hope one day for people to regard use of the words “man” or “woman” the same way we perceive use of the word n***er?

[Tree of Knowledge 1,855]

The original video posted still makes me laugh.  Poser with the tats is ghay.  

[double tour 90]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:54 PM, The Real timschochet said:

The bigger question is why do conservatives insist on categorizing everyone in terms of a sexual nature? Who cares what they call themselves? 

No one cares what they call themselves, it's when they want you to call them something they aren't where the problem starts. 

[jerryskids 6,792]

Isn't it presumptuous to call a man dressed as a woman, a woman?  Drag queens, for instance, typically identify as gay cisgender men.

Quote

Drag queens, otherwise known as “female impersonators," are most typically gay cisgender men (though there are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities) who perform and entertain on stage in nightclubs and bars.

Dressed in stereotypical feminine clothing and with elaborate makeup and wigs, they usually adopt an eccentric persona or a character that might act as a means of self-expression of their own personalities or allow them to characterize various personality attributes in order to entertain.

It is important here to note that performing in drag is not necessarily rooted in questioning one's gender identity, though this is a common misconception. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-things-lgbtq/201801/the-psychology-drag

Quote

Among the questions he fielded was, "what is the difference between performing in drag and identifying as transgender?" This is a complex topic that could be answered in a variety of ways depending on who is tackling it. However, RuPaul does a solid job of explaining, for him, what the difference is.

"Well, drag is really making fun of identity. We are shapeshifters. We’re like, 'Today, I’m this. Now, I’m a cowboy. Now, I’m this.' That’s what drag is about. Transgender [people] take identity very, very seriously. You know, in that their identity is who they are. But you know, I… I come from the school of you know… I’ll do whatever I want to do at anytime and change and whatever."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rupaul-explains-the-difference-between-drag-and-being-transgender_n_56d73496e4b03260bf78f317

How are we supposed to differentiate the two, and more importantly, why should we be expected to?

@The Real timschochet, @squistion, you are our resident experts.  Please help us out.  TIA

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

Isn't it presumptuous to call a man dressed as a woman, a woman?  Drag queens, for instance, typically identify as gay cisgender men.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-things-lgbtq/201801/the-psychology-drag

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rupaul-explains-the-difference-between-drag-and-being-transgender_n_56d73496e4b03260bf78f317

How are we supposed to differentiate the two, and more importantly, why should we be expected to?

@The Real timschochet, @squistion, you are our resident experts.  Please help us out.  TIA

I am no expert. In these situations I have three  rules: 

1. Listen to the medical experts. In the case where some disagree, listen to the majority from this country and those from reputable organizations. 

2. When a group of people asked to be called something try to accommodate them. Respect their wishes. 

3. If opposition to any of these issues comes from those who have in the past expressed bigotry towards those they are opposing, then it’s generally a good rule to be on the opposite side. 

[jerryskids 6,792]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I am no expert. In these situations I have three  rules: 

1. Listen to the medical experts. In the case where some disagree, listen to the majority from this country and those from reputable organizations. 

2. When a group of people asked to be called something try to accommodate them. Respect their wishes. 

3. If opposition to any of these issues comes from those who have in the past expressed bigotry towards those they are opposing, then it’s generally a good rule to be on the opposite side. 

This has nothing to do with my post.  Otherwise, good job, good effort.   

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

12 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

This has nothing to do with my post.  Otherwise, good job, good effort.   

It has everything to do with your post. See point #2. Address them however they wish to be addressed. Do your best not to be offensive. 

[jerryskids 6,792]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It has everything to do with your post. See point #2. Address them however they wish to be addressed. Do your best not to be offensive. 

But we don't know upon first meeting.  I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello skit.   

And for the record, for the two people who identified as trans that I knew in my daughter's HS, I used their preferred names and pronouns du jour. (I say du jour because at least one later changed back to a boy.  He came from a crap home life.  Reference our earlier scientific discussion about experience/environment influencing gender).

My concern, like Jordan Peterson's in Canada when he first rose to fame, is that this devolves into "hate speech" legislation, when we've just established that there is no way to pre-identify what a person wishes to be called.

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

12 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

But we don't know upon first meeting.  I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello skit.   

And for the record, for the two people who identified as trans that I knew in my daughter's HS, I used their preferred names and pronouns du jour. (I say du jour because at least one later changed back to a boy.  He came from a crap home life.  Reference our earlier scientific discussion about experience/environment influencing gender).

My concern, like Jordan Peterson's in Canada when he first rose to fame, is that this devolves into "hate speech" legislation, when we've just established that there is no way to pre-identify what a person wishes to be called.

So I will join you in opposing hate speech legislation, always, and you can perhaps join me in opposing laws that try to tell families and their doctors how to handle medical decisions that deal with this? Let people be free to do what they want, say what they want. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,988]

9 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

will join you in opposing hate speech legislation, always, and you can perhaps join me in opposing laws that try to tell families and their doctors how to handle medical decisions

Getting your Dik cut off is a medical decision now? 

[SUXBNME 1,499]

3 hours ago, TheNewGirl said:

My class reunion is at Jan's this year.  Being 100% serious. 

That's pretty cool. You going?

I've only been there 1 time since they re-opened. 

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

16 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

Getting your Dik cut off is a medical decision now? 

For some people sure. Why should you care? 

[jerryskids 6,792]

26 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

So I will join you in opposing hate speech legislation, always, and you can perhaps join me in opposing laws that try to tell families and their doctors how to handle medical decisions that deal with this? Let people be free to do what they want, say what they want. 

Sorry, I can't do that until the American trans health community learns from Europe that they went too far, that medical interventions for children should be extremely rare and only in the most severe and thoroughly analyzed cases.

[Fireballer 2,642]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Sorry, I can't do that until the American trans health community learns from Europe that they went too far, that medical interventions for children should be extremely rare and only in the most severe and thoroughly analyzed cases.

Absolutely.  The problem with Tim’s thinking as that he has to have faith in his institutions.  He bases his opinion on those opinions of “medical experts”. These are the same people who will rubber stamp procedures for kids, recommend schools hiding things from parents, provide chest binders illegally for teen girls, and will tell you that your kid will kill themselves if you don’t let them transition.  All of these “ medical experts” root their ideology on WPATH, which is a complete train wreck.  None of this shat is close to being settled science, but these “experts” are more than happy to experiment on kids. At least now, I *hope*, the false narrative about puberty blockers being completely safe and reversible has died.  

[SUXBNME 1,499]

4 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Absolutely.  The problem with Tim’s thinking

I stopped reading there

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

2 hours ago, MLCKAA said:

I haven’t read this whole thread, so I’m apologizing in advance if I’ve misunderstood something.  Having said that, are you saying that you hope one day for people to regard use of the words “man” or “woman” the same way we perceive use of the word n***er?

No, he's saying that he hopes that one day we all refer to people as they want to be referred to, as well as allowed to live as such, regardless if it's true or not.  Meaning, he hopes that if a man says he's a woman, the world will acknowledge that he is a woman, and that he'll have all the special rights and privilege's afforded to women... even though he's a man (and vice versa).

He hopes that black people will be treated like every other race, even though it's him and his party who are preventing that.

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

1. Listen to the medical experts. In the case where some disagree, listen to the majority from this country and those from reputable organizations.

Why didn't you just blanketly come out and say "Listen to radical leftists"?

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

20 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Absolutely.  The problem with Tim’s thinking as that he has to have faith in his institutions.  He bases his opinion on those opinions of “medical experts”. These are the same people who will rubber stamp procedures for kids, recommend schools hiding things from parents, provide chest binders illegally for teen girls, and will tell you that your kid will kill themselves if you don’t let them transition.  All of these “ medical experts” root their ideology on WPATH, which is a complete train wreck.  None of this shat is close to being settled science, but these “experts” are more than happy to experiment on kids. At least now, I *hope*, the false narrative about puberty blockers being completely safe and reversible has died.  

OK let’s say that I accepted your logic. What is the alternative? That judges with no medical knowledge rule whether or not a doctor can perform a medical procedure? Thats not acceptable to me. Thats why I say leave it up to the family. The whole thing might disgust you, or me but it’s none of our business. At least that’s the way I see it. 
Im frankly surprised, since this forum is mostly conservative, that I haven’t encountered more libertarian types here. 

[Strike 5,538]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I am no expert. In these situations I have three  rules: 

1. Listen to the medical experts. In the case where some disagree, listen to the majority from this country and those from reputable organizations. 

 

Why don't you practice what you preach?  I posted about the Cass report when it was announced but you didn't respond.  For people interested, and that means you Jerry, please read the following.  If really interested download the full report:

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

[TBayXXXVII 2,545]

46 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

OK let’s say that I accepted your logic. What is the alternative? That judges with no medical knowledge rule whether or not a doctor can perform a medical procedure? Thats not acceptable to me. Thats why I say leave it up to the family. The whole thing might disgust you, or me but it’s none of our business. At least that’s the way I see it. 
Im frankly surprised, since this forum is mostly conservative, that I haven’t encountered more libertarian types here. 

The conservative approach is quite libertarian.  That's why you don't encounter what you want to hear from libertarians.

• Prior to 18, cosmetic changes only.  Still need to use a gender appropriate bathroom (not your chosen gender), or uni-sex bathroom.  Boys can NOT participate in female specific activities.  PERIOD!  Bullying and ostracizing will ensue if you allow it based on participants acceptance.  Meaning, if you have a girls basketball team and there are 6 girls who are ok with a boy, but 3 not... the 6 will bully the 3 until they acquiesce.  Once you make an allowance for one, you have to do it globally... no picking and choosing.
• Post 18, do what you want... who cares, it's your body.  You still can't go out into society and get the rights and privilege's to the gender you chose.  You don't have the right to force others to accept your choices.

In both circumstances, go see any doctor you want.  Because we know there are activist doctors, lawyers, and judges, all people need to do is to continue to search until you find the right one for you... confirmation bias, right?  Well, you solve that problem by not allowing anyone to take pharmacological options until their adults.

Libertarians believe that women should have their rights protected.  If a man says he's a woman, he's still not a woman, hence he is NOT afforded the protected rights women have.  They also believe that your rights don't trump someone else's rights.  That's why you won't hear anything to your liking from Libertarians.

[Voltaire 5,316]

I haven't read the thread and am jumping in late. 

In regards to the OP's question, if you get tricked - like in a rap song - and leave when more information comes to light, you are not gay. If you Gutterboy the situation, you are gay.

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

35 minutes ago, Strike said:

Why don't you practice what you preach?  I posted about the Cass report when it was announced but you didn't respond.  For people interested, and that means you Jerry, please read the following.  If really interested download the full report:

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

In cases where some (medical experts) disagree, listen to the majority and those from this country. 

[The Real timschochet 6,761]

35 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

The conservative approach is quite libertarian.  That's why you don't encounter what you want to hear from libertarians.

• Prior to 18, cosmetic changes only.  Still need to use a gender appropriate bathroom (not your chosen gender), or uni-sex bathroom.  Boys can NOT participate in female specific activities.  PERIOD!  Bullying and ostracizing will ensue if you allow it based on participants acceptance.  Meaning, if you have a girls basketball team and there are 6 girls who are ok with a boy, but 3 not... the 6 will bully the 3 until they acquiesce.  Once you make an allowance for one, you have to do it globally... no picking and choosing.
• Post 18, do what you want... who cares, it's your body.  You still can't go out into society and get the rights and privilege's to the gender you chose.  You don't have the right to force others to accept your choices.

In both circumstances, go see any doctor you want.  Because we know there are activist doctors, lawyers, and judges, all people need to do is to continue to search until you find the right one for you... confirmation bias, right?  Well, you solve that problem by not allowing anyone to take pharmacological options until their adults.

Libertarians believe that women should have their rights protected.  If a man says he's a woman, he's still not a woman, hence he is NOT afforded the protected rights women have.  They also believe that your rights don't trump someone else's rights.  That's why you won't hear anything to your liking from Libertarians.

We’re actually not that far apart. I agree with you on the sports issue. On the under 18 stuff, I would allow it with parental permission, while you would make it completely illegal under 18. That’s not the same thing but it’s not that big a difference. We both agree that a minor should not be allowed to have gender surgery of his or her own accord.

Should a minor be allowed to have hormone treatments (not surgery) of his or her own accord? I’m not sure of this but I lean towards yes.  

[Strike 5,538]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

In cases where some (medical experts) disagree, listen to the majority and those from this country. 

What?  This is the dumbest response ever.  Did you read the report?