Lamar to flop today

[Fumbleweed 426]

6 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Lamar is a good football player.  One of the more dangerous guys in the league.  Hes an okay passer.  

When a good defense has a good gameplan and executes or he has to come from behind.....he tends to look bad.  

 A guy like Mahomes or Allen can't really be gameplanned for.  I mean they can, they all have tendencies.  But it is seemingly much more difficult to take things away from those guys.  

This all said, yes the playcalling and the way they maneuvered in game was a bit bizarre and didn't help. 

This. People love to throw labels like choke and flop on players and occasionally, they're deserved. 

Lamar did start pressing in this game as I think his desire to win was off the charts. Hard lesson to learn. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

29 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Funny you never bring up bad coaching when you’re ragging on Rodgers. 

Meh. I only rag on Rodgers cause GB fans made him their hero. 1 conference championship in his 16 or so years in GB. I don't boast about the '85 Bears. Hell, if he's healthy, and I can get him at a good auction price later this year, I'll roster him. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

Lamar = Dominique Wilkins. Lots of highlights, stats and awards. No titles. 

[Raven Fan 362]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Lamar = Dominique Wilkins. Lots of highlights, stats and awards. No titles. 

That's a fantastic comparison boyo. 

[cmh6476 755]

55 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

Lamar Jackson is one of the top five QBs in the league. He doesn't suddenly suck. But, his game has limitations and the Chiefs found a way to mute many of his strengths as good teams do. Who would you rather have at QB than Lamar? Mahomes, Allen....and then maybe Burrow if he could stay healthy. That's about it. Lamar is not the best QB in the league. Fine. But, he's better than 27-28 other starters. 

I think you're giving him too much credit.   He probably is the most athletic qb in the league.   But I'd take some more prominent passers than I would Lamar. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

I guess Marino sucked, Tarkenton sucked, Fouts, Cunningham, Rivers, Moon, McNair, Ryan, Kelly, Newton, all sucked too.

But OH BOY, Nick Foles and Brad Johnson were amazing. 

[The Real timschochet 2,939]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

I guess Marino sucked, Tarkenton sucked, Fouts, Cunningham, Rivers, Moon, McNair, Ryan, Kelly, Newton, all sucked too.

But OH BOY, Nick Foles and Brad Johnson were amazing. 

This is the best argument I’ve read yet. 
 

The problem with these discussions, always, is that the sample size is too small, and that as important as the QB is, the team around him needs to play well.

You could have added that until Peyton Manning got his first ring, he was also largely considered a choker in the big games, especially when Tom Brady was on the other side. 

[IGotWorms 3,315]

32 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Lamar is a good football player.  One of the more dangerous guys in the league.  Hes an okay passer.  

When a good defense has a good gameplan and executes or he has to come from behind.....he tends to look bad.  

 A guy like Mahomes or Allen can't really be gameplanned for.  I mean they can, they all have tendencies.  But it is seemingly much more difficult to take things away from those guys.  

This all said, yes the playcalling and the way they maneuvered in game was a bit bizarre and didn't help. 

I think Harbaugh should shoulder a lot of the blame though. KC clearly had the much better game plan and it seemed like Baltimore was mostly caught flat footed. This was true on both sides of the ball. Now after the first quarter they made adjustments on defense but coming in they were caught with their pants down. And they never really did adjust on offense 

[Bert 1,091]

7 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

I guess Marino sucked, Tarkenton sucked, Fouts, Cunningham, Rivers, Moon, McNair, Ryan, Kelly, Newton, all sucked too.

But OH BOY, Nick Foles and Brad Johnson were amazing. 

You forgot world champion Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler. 

  

[Bert 1,091]

5 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

I think Harbaugh should shoulder a lot of the blame though. KC clearly had the much better game plan and it seemed like Baltimore was mostly caught flat footed. This was true on both sides of the ball. Now after the first quarter they made adjustments on defense but coming in they were caught with their pants down. And they never really did adjust on offense 

[seafoam1 1,879]

1 minute ago, Bert said:

You forgot world champion Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler. 

  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

19 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

I guess Marino sucked, Tarkenton sucked, Fouts, Cunningham, Rivers, Moon, McNair, Ryan, Kelly, Newton, all sucked too.

But OH BOY, Nick Foles and Brad Johnson were amazing. 

Most of those guys made it to a SB. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

9 minutes ago, Bert said:

You forgot world champion Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler. 

  

No one thinks they’re better than LJ. The problem is people think LJ is better than a lot of guys that have won more than him. Not a few outliers. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

No one thinks they’re better than LJ. The problem is people think LJ is better than a lot of guys that have won more. 

Who thinks that? 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

11 minutes ago, Bert said:

You forgot world champion Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler. 

  

You know what a big reason they won was? They didn’t turn the ball over in the playoffs. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

Who thinks that? 

You. You’re bringing up guys that at least got to the SB and comparing them to LJ. Let him do that first once and then you can bring up Jim Kelly. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

11 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You. You’re bringing up guys that at least got to the SB and comparing them to LJ. Let him do that first once and then you can bring up Jim Kelly. 

You're just going against your own argument.

You aren't better because you won a SB. See Marino v. Brad Johnson. Marino was better. 

But you are better if you went to a SB and lost over those who lost in their conference championships. 

It's a losing battle. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

You're just going against your own argument.

You aren't better because you won a SB. See Marino v. Brad Johnson. Marino was better. 

But you are better if you went to a SB and lost over those who lost in their conference championships. 

It's a losing battle. 

Yes. Sometimes. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yes. 

Ok. So Rex Grossman is way up in your overall rankings. 

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

41 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Ok. So Rex Grossman is way up in your overall rankings. 

 

 

I said sometimes. If you’re going to make the point , then use Rex Grossman, not Dan Marino. Because using Marino is really stupid. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

19 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I said sometimes. If you’re going to make the point , then use Rex Grossman, not Dan Marino. Because using Marino is really stupid. 

I did use Rex Grossman. 

[Reality 2,710]

1 hour ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

You know what a big reason they won was? They didn’t turn the ball over in the playoffs. 

Great point, the throw to Lively, into triple coverage, at that point in the game, is one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen a QB make in the playoffs.

[Fumbleweed 426]

3 hours ago, cmh6476 said:

I think you're giving him too much credit.   He probably is the most athletic qb in the league.   But I'd take some more prominent passers than I would Lamar. 

OK. Which ones? I guess an argument could be made for Stafford when healthy, but who else? Purdy has done great this year, but if Lamar had those weapons, the Ravens would have won yesterday. So...who else? Prescott? Hurts? Herbert?

[IGotWorms 3,315]

1 hour ago, Reality said:

Great point, the throw to Lively, into triple coverage, at that point in the game, is one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen a QB make in the playoffs.

Stupid decision AND a terrible throw. He way under threw it in addition to the fact that it never should’ve been attempted in the first place 

[cmh6476 755]

19 minutes ago, Fumbleweed said:

OK. Which ones? I guess an argument could be made for Stafford when healthy, but who else? Purdy has done great this year, but if Lamar had those weapons, the Ravens would have won yesterday. So...who else? Prescott? Hurts? Herbert?

I'd probably rather have Herbert, Lawrence, Stroud, Levis, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers, Cousins, Love, Goff, Purdy, Stafford, Dak, or Hurts over Lamar if I'm building a team from scratch

[nobody 2,043]

3 hours ago, cmh6476 said:

I think you're giving him too much credit.   He probably is the most athletic qb in the league.   But I'd take some more prominent passers than I would Lamar. 

I think it's about right.  If you factor in contracts, I'd want Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, and then I'd add Stroud since he has four years left on his rookie deal.

You might be able to make a case for Hurts, but I'd rather have Lamar even at the bigger cap hit. Stafford has just as bad of a cap hit as Lamar, so I'd rather have Lamar.

 

If it's just talent and not salary, I'd go mahomes, Allen, burrow, and that's it.

[cmh6476 755]

Just now, nobody said:

I think it's about right.  If you factor in contracts, I'd want Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, and then I'd add Stroud since he has four years left on his rookie deal.

You might be able to make a case for Hurts, but I'd rather have Lamar even at the bigger cap hit. Stafford has just as bad of a cap hit as Lamar, so I'd rather have Lamar.

 

If it's just talent and not salary, I'd go mahomes, Allen, burrow, and that's it.

2-4 in the postseason.   Doesn't seem to be able to put the team on his back and win the big game.   Poor decision making.   Somewhat one dimensional and if you can stop him in the run game it severely limits what his team can do. 

I think a lot of those other qbs I am mentioning give the Chiefs a lot tougher challenge yesterday if they are qb for the Ravens. 

[nobody 2,043]

3 minutes ago, cmh6476 said:

I'd probably rather have Herbert, Lawrence, Stroud, Levis, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers, Cousins, Love, Goff, Purdy, Stafford, Dak, or Hurts over Lamar if I'm building a team from scratch

LOL...

Levis?  Come on, dude.

Rodgers is 50 on a bum Achilles.

Stafford is what? 35? 36?

Dak is just as bad in the post season.

Cousins has never won anything

Lawrence is overrated.

You must really think Lamar sucks if you'd take these guys over him.

[cmh6476 755]

4 minutes ago, nobody said:

LOL...

Levis?  Come on, dude.

Rodgers is 50 on a bum Achilles.

Stafford is what? 35? 36?

Dak is just as bad in the post season.

Cousins has never won anything

Lawrence is overrated.

You must really think Lamar sucks if you'd take these guys over him.

I'm saying in one game yesterday, if those other qbs are healthy who would I feel better with my chances.   Not looking beyond anything other than having to play 1 game right now. 

[nobody 2,043]

The chiefs did have a good defensive game plan.  They kind of did that mush rush thing to try to contain his scrambling.  Then they knew he's less effective throwing outside the numbers so they clogged the middle of the field and dared him to go outside.

That's the default game plan, but the Ravens had an answer.  They just kept trying to take the underneath stuff, but they weren't disciplined enough to not shoot themselves in the foot with a turnover or penalty.  Part of that is on Lamar for sure.  Part of being great is not getting board taking what the defense gives you.  That's where Josh Allen struggles too.  They love to say they're happy just handing off or taking the checkdowns, but they always get bored and want to start chucking it.

[nobody 2,043]

1 minute ago, cmh6476 said:

I'm saying in one game yesterday, if those other qbs are healthy who would I feel better with my chances.   Not looking beyond anything other than having to play 1 game right now. 

you said building a team from scratch

[cmh6476 755]

 

Just now, nobody said:

you said building a team from scratch

Then yeah I don't want cousins or rodgers but maybe levis in that situation, as I don't know what he will end up being, but I have a sense for what Lamar is and isn't. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,653]

Of course Trent Dilfer won because of his defense. Lamar didn’t have a top defense ? Yeah he did. So what’s the excuse again? 

[Gepetto 988]

Lamar just turned 27 (he was 26 during the season).

He's started 5 years.

He has one MVP and going to be 2 MVPs when the announce this year's MVP. 

Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until his last two seasons. Marino, Kelly, Fouts never won.

I agree his interception in the end zone late was a poor decision and bad throw.

Josh Allen was also drafted in 2018 and he has less accolades than L Jackson. Both are top 5 current NFL QBs.

 

[seafoam1 1,879]

8 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

Lamar just turned 27 (he was 26 during the season).

He's started 5 years.

He has one MVP and going to be 2 MVPs when the announce this year's MVP. 

Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until his last two seasons. Marino, Kelly, Fouts never won.

I agree his interception in the end zone late was a poor decision and bad throw.

Josh Allen was also drafted in 2018 and he has less accolades than L Jackson. Both are top 5 current NFL QBs.

 

The voice of reason. 

[seafoam1 1,879]

Stupid fans don't want to give players time to develop anymore. 

[Strike 3,979]

12 minutes ago, Gepetto said:

Lamar just turned 27 (he was 26 during the season).

He's started 5 years.

He has one MVP and going to be 2 MVPs when the announce this year's MVP. 

Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until his last two seasons. Marino, Kelly, Fouts never won.

I agree his interception in the end zone late was a poor decision and bad throw.

Josh Allen was also drafted in 2018 and he has less accolades than L Jackson. Both are top 5 current NFL QBs.

 

Elway went to three well before the two he won, and within the time frame Lamar has been in the league.  Lamar hasn't even sniffed one.

[The Real timschochet 2,939]

8 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Of course Trent Dilfer won because of his defense. Lamar didn’t have a top defense ? Yeah he did. So what’s the excuse again? 

The current Ravens defense is very good but it’s not the 2000 Ravens defense or close to that level. That was probably the greatest defense in NFL history. 

[The Real timschochet 2,939]

58 minutes ago, Strike said:

Elway went to three well before the two he won, and within the time frame Lamar has been in the league.  Lamar hasn't even sniffed one.

The AFC is far more competitive with better teams than in the 80s when Elway went to his first 3 Superbowls. Lamar has had a much tougher road to travel. 

[Mike Hunt 154]

7 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

The AFC is far more competitive with better teams than in the 80s when Elway went to his first 3 Superbowls. Lamar has had a much tougher road to travel. 

Not better teams, better QBs.   John was the Mahomes of his day but still did not win until he was past him prime.