And ... here we go again with a Colo. Baker not accomodating all patrons

[Cdub100 3,842]

45 minutes ago, MDC said:

Is this really where we want to go? Turning down customer business because we don’t approve of their lifestyle or politics? Sad state of affairs where people are so hooked on politics that they’re willing to turn down customers to prove a shallow point. 

100% I wish we could do it across the board. It would save business owners a lot of grief when dealing with certain demographics.

[The Real timschochet 6,446]

1 minute ago, Cdub100 said:

I think it's stupid to discriminate against Christians by forcing them to do things against their belief. Forcing someone to do something you know they don't want to do is stupid and rotten.

 

I agree. And it doesn’t have to be a Christian. It could be anyone. 
 

For example, I think it’s sad and pathetic that you are an anti-Semite, a Holocaust denier, and a white supremacist. I wish you weren’t these things, I wish people with your mindset didn’t exist in this country. But it’s a free country, and I have no right to force you to be sane or good. You’re free to be awful and stupid so long as you don’t harm other people. 

[Cdub100 3,842]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

I agree. And it doesn’t have to be a Christian. It could be anyone. 
 

For example, I think it’s sad and pathetic that you are an anti-Semite, a Holocaust denier, and a white supremacist. I wish you weren’t these things, I wish people with your mindset didn’t exist in this country. But it’s a free country, and I have no right to force you to be sane or good. You’re free to be awful and stupid so long as you don’t harm other people. 

I wish Jew Alex Mashinsky didn't steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from me and billions in total. I wish Jew Sam Bankman Fried didn't steal billions as well. I wish they weren't overrepresented in all aspects of government, media, education and C-suite managers. I wish Jews didn't pretend to be white and give white people a bad name. I wish Jews didn't slaughter millions in Russia or try and take over Germany in the same way leading to Hitler taking power.

But it's a free country so keep pushing your terrible ideas.

[DonS 3,292]

The swastika hypothetical is a clear cut example of hate speech so of course nobody would be forced to bake a cake or make a sign with one on it.

Who is the ultimate authority on what else is considered hate speech though? 

Would a Jewish baker or sign maker be forced to produce something that says "From the river to the sea"?   According to many on the Left this is just a happy go lucky slogan envisioning unicorns and rainbows and that it does not condone the elimination of Israel and Jews.   Others feel otherwise.

So what's the ruling on whether a Jewish person should face a lawsuit for not bowing down to the pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas crowd? 

[The Real timschochet 6,446]

8 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

I wish Jew Alex Mashinsky didn't steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from me and billions in total. I wish Jew Sam Bankman Fried didn't steal billions as well. I wish they weren't overrepresented in all aspects of government, media, education and C-suite managers. I wish Jews didn't pretend to be white and give white people a bad name. I wish Jews didn't slaughter millions in Russia or try and take over Germany in the same way leading to Hitler taking power.

But it's a free country so keep pushing your terrible ideas.

I’m sorry you got suckered into buying crypto. Blaming  “the Jews” for it, like the rest of your post, is garbage. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

54 minutes ago, MDC said:

The question was whether the baker or sign maker should have to make a cake/sign with the swastika on it. 

Sure, but that analogy doesn't fly because religious beliefs are protected under the constitution and while political views are not.  Hence, why I focused on the aspect of privacy.  The two only jive in the sense that they're private events and not public.

[MDC 7,147]

8 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Sure, but that analogy doesn't fly because religious beliefs are protected under the constitution and while political views are not.  Hence, why I focused on the aspect of privacy.  The two only jive in the sense that they're private events and not public.

I don’t see what the private vs public ceremony has to do with whether the baker would have to make the cake.  

My totally uninformed opinion is that people who run a public business should accommodate their customers regardless of their own political or religious beliefs. It’s just business. I feel the same way about the gay cake that I’d feel about a Trump sign. Just do your focking job and protest on your own time. 

[squistion 1,958]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

The question was whether the baker or sign maker should have to make a cake/sign with the swastika on it. 

There was case like this some years ago with a father who named his kid Adolf Hitler Campbell wanting his named spelled out on the cake and a New Jersey Market rejected it and I don't think they faced any legal consequences IIRC.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28269290

3-year-old Hitler can't get name on cake

The father of 3-year-old Adolf Hitler Campbell, denied a birthday cake with the child's full name on it by one New Jersey supermarket, is asking for a little tolerance. Heath Campbell and his wife, Deborah, are upset not only with the decision made by the Greenwich ShopRite, but with an outpouring of angry Internet postings in response to a local newspaper article over the weekend on their flare-up over frosting.

"I think people need to take their heads out of the cloud they've been in and start focusing on the future and not on the past," Heath Campbell said Tuesday in an interview conducted in Easton, on the other side of the Delaware River from where the family lives in Hunterdon County, N.J.

"There's a new president and he says it's time for a change; well, then it's time for a change," the 35-year-old continued. "They need to accept a name. A name's a name. The kid isn't going to grow up and do what (Hitler) did."

Deborah Campbell, 25, said she phoned in her order last week to the ShopRite. When she told the bakery department she wanted her son's name spelled out, she was told to talk to a supervisor, who denied the request.

Karen Meleta, a spokeswoman for ShopRite, defended the supermarket. She said the Campbells had similar requests denied at the same store the last two years and said Heath Campbell previously had asked for a swastika to be included in the decoration.

"We reserve the right not to print anything on the cake that we deem to be inappropriate," Meleta said. "We considered this inappropriate."

The Campbells ultimately got their cake decorated at a Wal-Mart in Pennsylvania, Deborah Campbell said.

A Wal-Mart spokesman told The Associated Press on Wednesday that in light of the incident, the company would review its guidelines regarding cake decorations and other requests.

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Could he argue that, being targeted by the plaintiff, she was responding to his beliefs and not actually asking for a generic routine innocuous task.

It would not surprise me if he did.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

4 minutes ago, MDC said:

I don’t see what the private vs public ceremony has to do with whether the baker would have to make the cake.  

My totally uninformed opinion is that people who run a public business should accommodate their customers regardless of their own political or religious beliefs. It’s just business. I feel the same way about the gay cake that I’d feel about a Trump sign. Just do your focking job and protest on your own time. 

You said the swastika "would violate community standards for decency".  If it's a private party, there's no violation of community standards for decency... if such a thing even exists.  The only people there would be people who share similar interests.

I don't disagree with your opinion, I just don't think that customers should have a right to undermine someone else's rights by force (i.e., take them to court).  Again, religion is a protected right, politics is not.  Hence, the scenarios doesn't jive.

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

It would not surprise me if he did.  

Would that fly in court?  She did admit already in public that was the reason for going to his bakery and placing the order.  I guess she could say "Well, I was only kidding when I said that", but I'd think that would tarnish her credibility.  Not in Colorado, but it could as it moved up the ladder in appeals.

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You said the swastika "would violate community standards for decency".  If it's a private party, there's no violation of community standards for decency... if such a thing even exists.  The only people there would be people who share similar interests.

I don't disagree with your opinion, I just don't think that customers should have a right to undermine someone else's rights by force (i.e., take them to court).  Again, religion is a protected right, politics is not.  Hence, the scenarios doesn't jive.

Which is why i asked him earlier if his dislike of Trump was a religiously held belief/

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Which is why i asked him earlier if his dislike of Trump was a religiously held belief/

I believe you asked that of Tim, not MDC, right?

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Would that fly in court?

I suspect he will have an uphill battle.  The Court does not like wholly personally subjective standards.  If I had to bet I would bet no, but it is a fairly close call and an interesting test case.  If the defendant does prevail he can expect more forced cahllenges.  The alphabet crowd will not let the one man be, not ever, not until he is driven from business. 

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

I believe you asked that of Tim, not MDC, right?

Exactly.  My mistake in not making that clear.  Multi-tasking, and I am not really capable of doing so effetively anymore.

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

I suspect he will have an uphill battle.  The Court does not like wholly personally subjective standards.  If I had to bet I would bet no, but it is a fairly close call and an interesting test case.  If the defendant does prevail he can expect more forced cahllenges.  The alphabet crowd will not let the one man be, not ever, not until he is driven from business. 

Gotchya.  If he does win, it probably would be in his best interest to take the route that you suggested on the consignment route.

[MDC 7,147]

8 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

You said the swastika "would violate community standards for decency".  If it's a private party, there's no violation of community standards for decency... if such a thing even exists.  The only people there would be people who share similar interests.

My point was that the baker shouldn’t have to make a cake that violates community standards for decency.  

[MDC 7,147]

18 minutes ago, squistion said:

There was case like this some years ago with a father who named his kid Adolf Hitler Campbell wanting his named spelled out on the cake and a New Jersey Market rejected it and I don't think they faced any legal consequences IIRC.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28269290

3-year-old Hitler can't get name on cake

The father of 3-year-old Adolf Hitler Campbell, denied a birthday cake with the child's full name on it by one New Jersey supermarket, is asking for a little tolerance. Heath Campbell and his wife, Deborah, are upset not only with the decision made by the Greenwich ShopRite, but with an outpouring of angry Internet postings in response to a local newspaper article over the weekend on their flare-up over frosting.

"I think people need to take their heads out of the cloud they've been in and start focusing on the future and not on the past," Heath Campbell said Tuesday in an interview conducted in Easton, on the other side of the Delaware River from where the family lives in Hunterdon County, N.J.

"There's a new president and he says it's time for a change; well, then it's time for a change," the 35-year-old continued. "They need to accept a name. A name's a name. The kid isn't going to grow up and do what (Hitler) did."

Deborah Campbell, 25, said she phoned in her order last week to the ShopRite. When she told the bakery department she wanted her son's name spelled out, she was told to talk to a supervisor, who denied the request.

Karen Meleta, a spokeswoman for ShopRite, defended the supermarket. She said the Campbells had similar requests denied at the same store the last two years and said Heath Campbell previously had asked for a swastika to be included in the decoration.

"We reserve the right not to print anything on the cake that we deem to be inappropriate," Meleta said. "We considered this inappropriate."

The Campbells ultimately got their cake decorated at a Wal-Mart in Pennsylvania, Deborah Campbell said.

A Wal-Mart spokesman told The Associated Press on Wednesday that in light of the incident, the company would review its guidelines regarding cake decorations and other requests.

The guy is a Trumper. Never saw that coming. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,956]

56 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I agree. And it doesn’t have to be a Christian. It could be anyone. 
 

For example, I think it’s sad and pathetic that you are an anti-Semite, a Holocaust denier, and a white supremacist. I wish you weren’t these things, I wish people with your mindset didn’t exist in this country. But it’s a free country, and I have no right to force you to be sane or good. You’re free to be awful and stupid so long as you don’t harm other people. 

When you say harm other people die to your beliefs, does that also include mutilating children? 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,956]

Would a Jewish baker be forced to make a cake that said From The River To The Sea? The community standards apply on that one? 

[DonS 3,292]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Would a Jewish baker be forced to make a cake that said From The River To The Sea? The community standards apply on that one? 

I already asked that and nobody responded.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,956]

9 minutes ago, DonS said:

I already asked that and nobody responded.

Sorry. It’s hot as Fock here and I’ve been in the pool and listening to radio margaritaville. But yeah, the community standards folks got nothin. 

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

5 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Would a Jewish baker be forced to make a cake that said From The River To The Sea? The community standards apply on that one? 

If he or she did would you take a bite of that cake?

[Hardcore troubadour 14,956]

8 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

If he or she did would you take a bite of that cake?

No. What’s your point? 

[MDC 7,147]

From the River to the Sea … Reeeeeeee!!!  

[cyclone24 1,912]

2 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

Who gives a fock about alienating a fraction of a percent of your customer base.  It's their business they can do whatever the hell they want with it. It isn't a publicity traded company.  They invested their money and took the risk to start a business and they should be able to run it however they see fit without some alphabet mafia telling them wtf to do.

Yep, and when it fails because people find them to be homophobic and bigoted, just don’t cry about it like they usually do. 
 

Most small businesses as you know, fail all the time with great conditions. Good luck trying to stay afloat when you drive off portions of your business because you don’t agree with them.

[iam90sbaby 2,493]

6 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

Yep, and when it fails because people find them to be homophobic and bigoted, just don’t cry about it like they usually do. 
 

Most small businesses as you know, fail all the time with great conditions. Good luck trying to stay afloat when you drive off portions of your business because you don’t agree with them.

Would you stop shopping somewhere or using a service if they didn't serve trans people?

[seafoam1 2,804]

1 minute ago, iam90sbaby said:

Would you stop shopping somewhere or using a service if they didn't serve trans people?

I would endorse them for free. 

[Strike 5,219]

9 minutes ago, cyclone24 said:

Yep, and when it fails because people find them to be homophobic and bigoted, just don’t cry about it like they usually do. 
 

Most small businesses as you know, fail all the time with great conditions. Good luck trying to stay afloat when you drive off portions of your business because you don’t agree with them.

Then this guy should be going broke, right?  Why do you care if he goes broke and goes out of business? 

[iam90sbaby 2,493]

2 hours ago, MDC said:

I legit feel bad for you. 

[iam90sbaby 2,493]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

I would endorse them for free. 

Same

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

My point was that the baker shouldn’t have to make a cake that violates community standards for decency.  

LOL, why do I bother.  I literally quoted your replies.  

[MDC 7,147]

6 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

LOL, why do I bother.  I literally quoted your replies.  

I was just thinking the same thing. Sometimes I forget what a dummy you are and remember 4-5 posts in.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,485]

10 minutes ago, MDC said:

I was just thinking the same thing. Sometimes I forget what a dummy you are and remember 4-5 posts in.  

Weird, I was thinking the same thing.

[MDC 7,147]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

Weird, I was thinking the same thing.

Feel free to not quote me anymore. I’m never sitting around thinking, “I wonder where that TB guy stands on this issue?”  

[seafoam1 2,804]

42 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

Same

A lot of people don't realize that local businesses are frequented by people with similar values. And also, those businesses are not all so needy and starving for business.

I know a guy who owns an auto repair shop a mile from where I live. The shop is constantly busy. Has been for the past 10 years. One day a while back I asked him if he had any plans on opening a second place. He said no way would he want to take that on. The guy makes all the money he needs to support his lifestyle, to put his daughter through college, and to not work past 6pm on weekdays and he's closed up on weekends. 

I also asked the guy if he ever worked on electric vehicles and he kind of laughed that off. A hard "no". 

I've known multiple small business owners who are the same. Maybe more, maybe less aggressive in their work lifestyles.

Not every small business is starving for customers and they definitely steer away the people who are annoying customers or those they don't like.  

 

[Engorgeous George 2,150]

19 hours ago, Strike said:

Then this guy should be going broke, right?  Why do you care if he goes broke and goes out of business? 

My understanding is that he had quite a christian following after his first lawsuit was won, in large part, and is doing very well.  Like-minded folks flocked to him.

[seafoam1 2,804]

What many people don't realize is that many customers are not worth having. 

[DonS 3,292]

6 hours ago, DonS said:

The swastika hypothetical is a clear cut example of hate speech so of course nobody would be forced to bake a cake or make a sign with one on it.

Who is the ultimate authority on what else is considered hate speech though? 

Would a Jewish baker or sign maker be forced to produce something that says "From the river to the sea"?   According to many on the Left this is just a happy go lucky slogan envisioning unicorns and rainbows and that it does not condone the elimination of Israel and Jews.   Others feel otherwise.

So what's the ruling on whether a Jewish person should face a lawsuit for not bowing down to the pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas crowd? 

 

4 hours ago, MDC said:

From the River to the Sea … Reeeeeeee!!!  

Anyone else care to weigh in? 

[Gepetto 1,291]

The Baker should be able to deny a request to bake a cake that the details of the cake requested by the customer the Baker deems inappropriate, offensive, or they simply don't like it and they consider themselves an artist of sorts. However, they should not be allowed to deny a type of cake they would bake for most any customer, but won't bake that cake or any cake because the customer is a certain race, creed, sexual orientation, sexual beliefs, or religious beliefs. 

What I'm saying is the product, cake in this instance, can be denied by the baker or store owner. But, they should not deny because of the type of customer. No discrimination against people, but they should have the right to deny the cake itself.