Dem immigration talking points fizzle as dark picture of Abrego Garcia emerges

[Strike 5,257]

15 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

They affirmed the findings that he be denied bond, and that he couldn’t prove he was NOT in MS-13.  They said the allegations came from a “trustworthy source,” but they did not “rule that he was in MS-13.”

I’d be curious if they still consider the police officer that filed the initial report and his informants a trustworthy source considering his criminal guilt…

This is a lie.  I would just say that you're incorrect but this has to be a blatant LIE.  From the link I provided you:

Quote

The respondent argues that the Immigration Judge clearly erred in determining that he is a
verified member of MS-13 because there is no reliable evidence in the record to support such a
finding (Respondent's Br. at 6-9).

The illegal literally argued to the appeals court that the first court erred in determining that he was a VERIFIED MEMBER OF MS-13.  And LOST that argument.

I'm not doing this again today.  You and SID can go suck each other off but I'm not doing this again.  FFS.

[SaintsInDome2006 417]

49 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

A judge is the Trump administration? Doesn’t the judiciary act independent?...

1. The judge - not in the Trump administration - made the ruling.

Then - No. 2 - the Trump administration could have appealed or sought to hold him on a different basis.

My point to Strike was that the judge's ruling left no room for the Trump administration to do either of those things. They had no basis to hold Garcia.

[SaintsInDome2006 417]

48 minutes ago, Strike said:

Your point WAS that he was ORDERED released, which he was not.  If you've EVOLVED your thinking based on my excellent responses then say so.  Say something like "you are correct that he wasn't ordered released.  Can we discuss x, y, or z based upon what WAS ordered."  If you want to do that we can move on but you don't get to just pretend like your original point was valid even though it's now a DIFFERENT point.

Why, Strike, I must say, you are correct that he wasn't ordered released. Perhaps we should discuss what the Trump administration could have done based upon what was ordered:

• Presumably the Trump DHS had no basis to find he was a danger to the community, because they did not appeal.
• They could have found some new basis, which again they did not have since they did not file new request for removal/deportation.

[TimHauck 2,633]

16 minutes ago, Strike said:

This is a lie.  I would just say that you're incorrect but this has to be a blatant LIE.  From the link I provided you:

The illegal literally argued to the appeals court that the first court erred in determining that he was a VERIFIED MEMBER OF MS-13.  And LOST that argument.

I'm not doing this again today.  You and SID can go suck each other off but I'm not doing this again.  FFS.

The argument wasn’t “whether or not he was in MS-13.”  It was whether they thought there was enough evidence that he was in order to be denied bond.   The first judge thought there was, but it was based on what she called a “trustworthy source” which any normal person except @jerryskids should now have doubts about.  The second judge just said he didn’t do enough to disprove it.

[Strike 5,257]

1 minute ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Why, Strike, I must say, you are correct that he wasn't ordered released. Perhaps we should discuss what the Trump administration could have done based upon what was ordered:

• Presumably the Trump DHS had no basis to find he was a danger to the community, because they did not appeal.
• They could have found some new basis, which again they did not have since they did not file new request for removal/deportation.

Sorry man.  I'm done with you and Tim today.  I literally posted and/or called out specific quotes from government documents proving both of you wrong and yet you both keep arguing about it.  I can't deal with that on a steady basis.  FACTS are FACTS.  I have a finite amount of energy and when that runs out on a topic I'm done.  You both wasted it all arguing about FACTS.   There' s none left to discuss our opinions on the issue.  Next time get your facts straight BEFORE starting a discussion so it can be more fruitful.  Or just argue with the usual suspects. 

[Strike 5,257]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

The argument wasn’t “whether or not he was in MS-13.”  It was whether they thought there was enough evidence that he was in order to be denied bond.   The first judge thought there was, but it was based on what she called a “trustworthy source” which any normal person except @jerryskids should now have doubts about.  The second judge just said he didn’t do enough to disprove it.

Holy fock.  Now moving the goalposts.  I'm done with you and SID today.  I literally posted and/or called out specific quotes from government documents proving both of you wrong and yet you both keep arguing about it.  I can't deal with that on a steady basis.  FACTS are FACTS.  I have a finite amount of energy and when that runs out on a topic I'm done.  You both wasted it all arguing about FACTS.   There' s none left to discuss our opinions on the issue.  Next time get your facts straight BEFORE starting a discussion so it can be more fruitful.  Or just argue with the usual suspects. 

[TimHauck 2,633]

Just now, Strike said:

Holy fock.  Now moving the goalposts.  I'm done with you and SID today.  I literally posted and/or called out specific quotes from government documents proving both of you wrong and yet you both keep arguing about it.  I can't deal with that on a steady basis.  FACTS are FACTS.  I have a finite amount of energy and when that runs out on a topic I'm done.  You both wasted it all arguing about FACTS.   There' s none left to discuss our opinions on the issue.  Next time get your facts straight BEFORE starting a discussion so it can be more fruitful.  Or just argue with the usual suspects. 

I stated facts.

[SaintsInDome2006 417]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

Sorry man.  I'm done with you and Tim today.  I literally posted and/or called out specific quotes from government documents proving both of you wrong and yet you both keep arguing about it.  I can't deal with that on a steady basis.  FACTS are FACTS.  I have a finite amount of energy and when that runs out on a topic I'm done.  You both wasted it all arguing about FACTS.   There' s none left to discuss our opinions on the issue.  Next time get your facts straight BEFORE starting a discussion so it can be more fruitful.  Or just argue with the usual suspects. 

Hey it's cool, LOL I actually said the thing you requested I say. But anyway. I enjoyed the discussion, thank you for the responses.

[Strike 5,257]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I stated facts.

The following is demonstrably false:

Quote

You’re incorrect that a court “ruled he was a member of MS-13.”

And I demonstrated it with an actual court document.  And yet you're still arguing it. 

 

[TimHauck 2,633]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

The following is demonstrably false:

And I demonstrated it with an actual court document.  And yet you're still arguing it. 

 

The ruling was not “whether or not he was in MS-13.”  The ruling was whether or not to deny him bond.

[jerryskids 6,589]

30 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

The argument wasn’t “whether or not he was in MS-13.”  It was whether they thought there was enough evidence that he was in order to be denied bond.   The first judge thought there was, but it was based on what she called a “trustworthy source” which any normal person except @jerryskids should now have doubts about.  The second judge just said he didn’t do enough to disprove it.

Man, I live in your head RMFF 24/7, don't I?  When those autism pills kick in, how about you explain to us how the officer's other issues, from which he personally benefitted, means that he just randomly made up shiot about every gang banger on the street?  I've already proposed that if he had shady stuff going on, it would make more sense for him to NOT draw attention to himself by doing so for no reason.  

Also, you seem to think you have some gotcha with the bond thing, but multiple people have explained to you that due process to deport an illegal alien gang banger is different than the criminal process.

Smart people like @The Real timschochetare taking the position I have from the beginning, which is that the smart (and correct) play here is to say it doesn't matter if he's Hannibal Lecter, he had a legal order to not be deported to El Salvador.  And yet, folks like yourself just can't help dying on the hill of calling a multiple-time wife beater, who fled El Sal because of (alleged) threats from a rival gang (and abandoned his mother to do so, allegedly), has suspicious tattoos, trafficked other illegals errrr... picked up 8 hitchhikers with no luggage, a "Maryland man" like the MSDNC pablum you gorge on daily. 

You do you, center-right guy.   

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,247]

5 hours ago, Ron_Artest said:

If an immigration judge wants to make that order then OK.  But a judge hasn't.  You can't just make up facts and ignore the law.

Too bad so sad. You want us to take a citizen from another country. That’s a terrible idea. Especially one that works so well with taking back their gangbangers 

a judge could look at it without having the dude in the country 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,875]

17 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Too bad so sad. You want us to take a citizen from another country. That’s a terrible idea. Especially one that works so well with taking back their gangbangers 

a judge could look at it without having the dude in the country 

How about we trade Alfeguo or whatever his name is for Ghey_Artest?  Seems like a solid deal.

[TimHauck 2,633]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Man, I live in your head RMFF 24/7, don't I?  When those autism pills kick in, how about you explain to us how the officer's other issues, from which he personally benefitted, means that he just randomly made up shiot about every gang banger on the street?  I've already proposed that if he had shady stuff going on, it would make more sense for him to NOT draw attention to himself by doing so for no reason.  

Also, you seem to think you have some gotcha with the bond thing, but multiple people have explained to you that due process to deport an illegal alien gang banger is different than the criminal process.

Smart people like @The Real timschochetare taking the position I have from the beginning, which is that the smart (and correct) play here is to say it doesn't matter if he's Hannibal Lecter, he had a legal order to not be deported to El Salvador.  And yet, folks like yourself just can't help dying on the hill of calling a multiple-time wife beater, who fled El Sal because of (alleged) threats from a rival gang (and abandoned his mother to do so, allegedly), has suspicious tattoos, trafficked other illegals errrr... picked up 8 hitchhikers with no luggage, a "Maryland man" like the MSDNC pablum you gorge on daily. 

You do you, center-right guy.   

Lol you’re just making stuff up now.

If you don’t think it’s more likely for a cop that’s dirty in one regard to also be dirty in another regard, then I can’t help you.

I’ve never said he should have gotten bond, I’m just saying the ruling was about whether or not he should get bond, not if he was in MS-13.  The judge believing he was (but not “ruling” it) was one of multiple factors in ruling that he did not get bond.

And I’ve agreed that he should have been deported, just not to El Salvador.

But what I feel the strongest about is that even though he should have been deported, he shouldn’t be imprisoned.  That’s where the lack of evidence of his alleged crimes comes in.

Good job repeating the lie about a “rival gang” though.  It wasn’t a rival gang, it was a gang that was threatening his family’s business.  I thought you were better than that, guess not.

 

[The Real timschochet 6,494]

Americans want Abrego Garcia returned 53-21%: 

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/52094-what-do-americans-believe-about-kilmar-abrego-garcia

makes me hopeful. We seem to be emerging from our nativist idiocy. We’ll see, 

[The Real timschochet 6,494]

3 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Man, I live in your head RMFF 24/7, don't I?  When those autism pills kick in, how about you explain to us how the officer's other issues, from which he personally benefitted, means that he just randomly made up shiot about every gang banger on the street?  I've already proposed that if he had shady stuff going on, it would make more sense for him to NOT draw attention to himself by doing so for no reason.  

Also, you seem to think you have some gotcha with the bond thing, but multiple people have explained to you that due process to deport an illegal alien gang banger is different than the criminal process.

Smart people like @The Real timschochetare taking the position I have from the beginning, which is that the smart (and correct) play here is to say it doesn't matter if he's Hannibal Lecter, he had a legal order to not be deported to El Salvador.  And yet, folks like yourself just can't help dying on the hill of calling a multiple-time wife beater, who fled El Sal because of (alleged) threats from a rival gang (and abandoned his mother to do so, allegedly), has suspicious tattoos, trafficked other illegals errrr... picked up 8 hitchhikers with no luggage, a "Maryland man" like the MSDNC pablum you gorge on daily. 

You do you, center-right guy.   

Since you quoted me I should clarify that while you correctly stated my position, I don’t see it as a “play”, or part of any game. It’s based on a core belief of mine: everybody gets due process, no matter how inconvenient. 
Whether or not one is American is irrelevant to me since I regard due process as an inalienable human right. Any country that regularly deprives anyone of due process is by its very nature a criminal state. 

[Engorgeous George 2,163]

4 hours ago, jerryskids said:

Man, I live in your head RMFF 24/7, don't I?  When those autism pills kick in, how about you explain to us how the officer's other issues, from which he personally benefitted, means that he just randomly made up shiot about every gang banger on the street?  I've already proposed that if he had shady stuff going on, it would make more sense for him to NOT draw attention to himself by doing so for no reason.  

Also, you seem to think you have some gotcha with the bond thing, but multiple people have explained to you that due process to deport an illegal alien gang banger is different than the criminal process.

Smart people like @The Real timschochetare taking the position I have from the beginning, which is that the smart (and correct) play here is to say it doesn't matter if he's Hannibal Lecter, he had a legal order to not be deported to El Salvador.  And yet, folks like yourself just can't help dying on the hill of calling a multiple-time wife beater, who fled El Sal because of (alleged) threats from a rival gang (and abandoned his mother to do so, allegedly), has suspicious tattoos, trafficked other illegals errrr... picked up 8 hitchhikers with no luggage, a "Maryland man" like the MSDNC pablum you gorge on daily. 

You do you, center-right guy.   

That made me laugh.

[Tebok 334]

Deportations down under Trump.

https://tracreports.org/reports/756/

[Hardcore troubadour 14,976]

The country voted for mass deportations and the democrats are stopping them. Should help out in the mid terms. 

[The Real timschochet 6,494]

1 hour ago, Engorgeous George said:

That made me laugh.

Hey me too. 

[seafoam1 2,817]

9 hours ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

How about we trade Alfeguo or whatever his name is for Ghey_Artest?  Seems like a solid deal.

We can throw in both timmies as well. Get rid of those three, and the collective IQ of this country goes way up. 

[jerryskids 6,589]

11 hours ago, Engorgeous George said:

That made me laugh.

 

10 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Hey me too. 

Hey, it's all relative.   

[jerryskids 6,589]

14 hours ago, TimHauck said:

Lol you’re just making stuff up now.

If you don’t think it’s more likely for a cop that’s dirty in one regard to also be dirty in another regard, then I can’t help you.

I’ve never said he should have gotten bond, I’m just saying the ruling was about whether or not he should get bond, not if he was in MS-13.  The judge believing he was (but not “ruling” it) was one of multiple factors in ruling that he did not get bond.

And I’ve agreed that he should have been deported, just not to El Salvador.

But what I feel the strongest about is that even though he should have been deported, he shouldn’t be imprisoned.  That’s where the lack of evidence of his alleged crimes comes in.

Good job repeating the lie about a “rival gang” though.  It wasn’t a rival gang, it was a gang that was threatening his family’s business.  I thought you were better than that, guess not.

 

I also agree with your 4th and 5th paragraphs, as I've stated multiple times.

Your last paragraph is hilarious, Mr. Immaculate Sources.  Who told you that, the multiple-time wife beating, human trafficking, hand-tattoo adjacent gang banger?  So walk me through this smart guy:  a gang, not a rival gang, just a gang different than the gang he allegedly is in, threatened his family business, and the solution to the problem is for him to flee the country?

The only people idiotic enough to buy that are a whackjob activist judge, and a center-right poster who vets his sources.   

[TimHauck 2,633]

20 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I also agree with your 4th and 5th paragraphs, as I've stated multiple times.

Your last paragraph is hilarious, Mr. Immaculate Sources.  Who told you that, the multiple-time wife beating, human trafficking, hand-tattoo adjacent gang banger?  So walk me through this smart guy:  a gang, not a rival gang, just a gang different than the gang he allegedly is in, threatened his family business, and the solution to the problem is for him to flee the country?

The only people idiotic enough to buy that are a whackjob activist judge, and a center-right poster who vets his sources.   

Who told you it was a rival gang?  “Occam’s Razor”?  You do realize that it is a thing for gangs to extort businesses right? (I believe @avoiding injuries seemed shocked by that possibility as well).

You can argue if he was “abandoning his family” if you want, but we know Garcia’s brother fled to the US before Kilmar for the same reason and became a legal resident, so it’s not like Kilmar was just making it up so he wouldn’t be deported.  The family also moved twice to try to avoid the gang, which I’m sure could be easily verified.

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

27 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I also agree with your 4th and 5th paragraphs, as I've stated multiple times.

Your last paragraph is hilarious, Mr. Immaculate Sources.  Who told you that, the multiple-time wife beating, human trafficking, hand-tattoo adjacent gang banger?  So walk me through this smart guy:  a gang, not a rival gang, just a gang different than the gang he allegedly is in, threatened his family business, and the solution to the problem is for him to flee the country?

The only people idiotic enough to buy that are a whackjob activist judge, and a center-right poster who vets his sources.   

I thought you agreed that he deserves due process?  Did you flip already?

[jerryskids 6,589]

8 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

I thought you agreed that he deserves due process?  Did you flip already?

Reading is fundamental, gutter.

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

Just now, jerryskids said:

Reading is fundamental, gutter.

 

On 3/21/2025 at 3:13 PM, jerryskids said:

I said earlier that I disagree with sending people to a 3rd world prison without due process.   

 

39 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The only people idiotic enough to buy that are a whackjob activist judge

 

[jerryskids 6,589]

Just now, Ron_Artest said:

 

 

 

The "whackjob activist judge" I referred to, was the one who bought the story in the past that he was in danger if he went back to El Salvador.  In context, we were discussing Kilmar making up a story to avoid deportation back home.

Also in the very post you quoted, I referenced his 4th and 5th paragraphs.  Go back and read them, since you didn't the first time.

Nice try trying to dig up months-old comments of mine as a gotcha, though.  

 

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The "whackjob activist judge" I referred to, was the one who bought the story in the past that he was in danger if he went back to El Salvador.  In context, we were discussing Kilmar making up a story to avoid deportation back home.

Also in the very post you quoted, I referenced his 4th and 5th paragraphs.  Go back and read them, since you didn't the first time.

Nice try trying to dig up months-old comments of mine as a gotcha, though.  

 

Not a gotcha, just interested in what flipped your opinion from disagreeing with Garcia's imprisonment to now calling him a wife beating, human trafficking gang banger.

If you don't want to address it I understand because I'm fairly sure I know why.

[jerryskids 6,589]

Just now, Ron_Artest said:

Not a gotcha, just interested in what flipped your opinion from disagreeing with Garcia's imprisonment to now calling him a wife beating, human trafficking gang banger.

If you don't want to address it I understand because I'm fairly sure I know why.

I've always called him a wife beating, human trafficking gang banger.  I've also said we should bring him back because of the existing stay. Those two things are not inconsistent.

And I've said it in this very thread, along with other threads on this topic.

I just explained to you how you are wrong about flipping my opinion.  It's too early to be drinking, even for you.  Trouble in your personal life?  Are you a little touched?  None of us is getting any younger after all.   

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I've always called him a wife beating, human trafficking gang banger.  I've also said we should bring him back because of the existing stay. Those two things are not inconsistent.

And I've said it in this very thread, along with other threads on this topic.

I just explained to you how you are wrong about flipping my opinion.  It's too early to be drinking, even for you.  Trouble in your personal life?  Are you a little touched?  None of us is getting any younger after all.   

It is odd that a person who values due process and the principles of innocent until proven guilty and the ability to present your case before a judge is willing to declare someone a wife beating human trafficking gang banger based on hearsay.

I do appreciate your feigned concern when faced with incongruent beliefs.  Didn't see that coming

[Hardcore troubadour 14,976]

This guy have a w-2? 

[jerryskids 6,589]

18 minutes ago, Ron_Artest said:

It is odd that a person who values due process and the principles of innocent until proven guilty and the ability to present your case before a judge is willing to declare someone a wife beating human trafficking gang banger based on hearsay.

I do appreciate your feigned concern when faced with incongruent beliefs.  Didn't see that coming

What's not odd is you misreading some posts and not reading others, but trying to get a gotcha anyway, then when proven wrong, trying to move the goalposts to some irrelevant red herring.   

I guess this is the closest you'll come to admitting the L, so I'll take it I guess.  

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

What's not odd is you misreading some posts and not reading others, but trying to get a gotcha anyway, then when proven wrong, trying to move the goalposts to some irrelevant red herring.   

I guess this is the closest you'll come to admitting the L, so I'll take it I guess.  

Just like your hero you frame everything as a W or L.  I read all your posts which is why I asked you to explain your hypocrisy.  You chose not to and went with the personal attack.  Tells me all I need to know.  Enjoy your day.  I'll even let you get the last word in, probably going to point out how I threw the gun

[TimHauck 2,633]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

Who told you it was a rival gang?  “Occam’s Razor”?  You do realize that it is a thing for gangs to extort businesses right? (I believe @avoiding injuries seemed shocked by that possibility as well).

You can argue if he was “abandoning his family” if you want, but we know Garcia’s brother fled to the US before Kilmar for the same reason and became a legal resident, so it’s not like Kilmar was just making it up so he wouldn’t be deported.  The family also moved twice to try to avoid the gang, which I’m sure could be easily verified.

Bump for @jerryskids.  Two questions really:

1.  Who told you Garcia was “afraid of a rival gang”?

2.  Do you know businesses can be extorted by gangs without being a member of a different gang?

 

[jerryskids 6,589]

1 hour ago, Ron_Artest said:

Just like your hero you frame everything as a W or L.  I read all your posts which is why I asked you to explain your hypocrisy.  You chose not to and went with the personal attack.  Tells me all I need to know.  Enjoy your day.  I'll even let you get the last word in, probably going to point out how I threw the gun

Because there is no hypocrisy, as I've explained and pointed to.  Unfortunately, I don't speak stupid, so I don't know how else to say it.

Good strategy on your part to toss the gun, then make that last comment.  

Enjoy your Tuesday.

[jerryskids 6,589]

45 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Bump for @jerryskids.  Two questions really:

1.  Who told you Garcia was “afraid of a rival gang”?

2.  Do you know businesses can be extorted by gangs without being a member of a different gang?

 

1. I don't recall.  If you prefer, we can call it "gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang" for now.

2. Gee, no, I've never heard that.

Your turn:

1. Walk me through this logic from your impeccable source, Garcia, since you are an expert on source impeccability:  Gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang threatens the family business, and Garcia's response is to flee the country.  Your argument is that gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang was just doing bizness, and it was nothing personal about him.  Explain to me why his life would be in danger from gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang if he went back to El Salvador.

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

13 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

1. I don't recall.  If you prefer, we can call it "gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang" for now.

2. Gee, no, I've never heard that.

Your turn:

1. Walk me through this logic from your impeccable source, Garcia, since you are an expert on source impeccability:  Gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang threatens the family business, and Garcia's response is to flee the country.  Your argument is that gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang was just doing bizness, and it was nothing personal about him.  Explain to me why his life would be in danger from gang-that-isn't-a-rival-gang if he went back to El Salvador.

The gang threatened the mother and said that they would take her son and make him a gang member if she didn't give them money.

[jerryskids 6,589]

1 minute ago, Ron_Artest said:

The gang threatened the mother and said that they would take her son and make him a gang member if she didn't give them money.

Then he left.  What happened next?

[Ron_Artest 1,105]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

Then he left.  What happened next?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Kilmar_Abrego_Garcia