Israel Gaza thread

[Fnord 2,293]

4 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah well...   Your tax dollars fund a whole lot of stuff that you have no say in as far as how it's used or what it's used for.  How it works with taxes

How awesome would it be if we could assign how our tax dollars were spent?

I think a few things would change...

[supermike80 1,928]

2 hours ago, Fnord said:

How awesome would it be if we could assign how our tax dollars were spent?

I think a few things would change...

Sh!tty streets

[Maximum Overkill 2,015]

12 hours ago, Fnord said:

How awesome would it be if we could assign how our tax dollars were spent?

You mean like redirecting funds for sex reassignment surgeries for children?  

Ahh, gotta love the twisted liberals 

[jerryskids 6,829]

Thoughts from the Hamas apologists here?

[The Real timschochet 6,843]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Thoughts from the Hamas apologists here?

There aren’t any Hamas apologists here. But I will respond anyhow: three  things can be true at the same time. Hamas is making it very difficult to get aid to the hungry AND Hamas is involved in corruption AND Israel has systematically helped to starve the Palestinians. All are true. This isn’t either or. 

[jerryskids 6,829]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

There aren’t any Hamas apologists here. But I will respond anyhow: three  things can be true at the same time. Hamas is making it very difficult to get aid to the hungry AND Hamas is involved in corruption AND Israel has systematically helped to starve the Palestinians. All are true. This isn’t either or. 

I appreciate the response.  Before I accept your first sentence... what percent of the culpability would you place on Hamas vs. Israel for the starvation of innocent (presumably) Palestinians?

I would argue that Hamas is between 90 and 95%.  As I've stated numerous times, Hamas does not want aid to go away from UNRWA, since UNRWA is their shill.  I posted a link on this recently to you BTW and don't recall a response. 

But I stop short of making it 100% Hamas because Israel, realizing what I posted, is more interested in providing alternative aid (through the US-driven GHF) to cripple Hamas, than they are through truly altruistic means.  So if the aid drops on a tent, or somebody needs to walk 1/2 mile for the aid, they don't really care.

[The Real timschochet 6,843]

13 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I appreciate the response.  Before I accept your first sentence... what percent of the culpability would you place on Hamas vs. Israel for the starvation of innocent (presumably) Palestinians?

I would argue that Hamas is between 90 and 95%.  As I've stated numerous times, Hamas does not want aid to go away from UNRWA, since UNRWA is their shill.  I posted a link on this recently to you BTW and don't recall a response. 

But I stop short of making it 100% Hamas because Israel, realizing what I posted, is more interested in providing alternative aid (through the US-driven GHF) to cripple Hamas, than they are through truly altruistic means.  So if the aid drops on a tent, or somebody needs to walk 1/2 mile for the aid, they don't really care.

I don’t know what the percentage would be. I’m pretty sure it’s at least 51% on Hamas- probably higher. Not 95% though. I believe Israel has done enough wrong here to be complicit in genocide. 

[jerryskids 6,829]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t know what the percentage would be. I’m pretty sure it’s at least 51% on Hamas- probably higher. Not 95% though. I believe Israel has done enough wrong here to be complicit in genocide. 

Genocide?  Genocide would have been turning Gaza into glass on 10/8, which they could have done.  

Your sources are getting their "news" from Hamas Harry.  You like to say that criticizing Israel does not mean that you hate Israel or Jews, but I gotta say, you seem quite invested in finding Israel to be (almost, maybe 49%) complicit in this.   

[The Real timschochet 6,843]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Genocide?  Genocide would have been turning Gaza into glass on 10/8, which they could have done.  

Your sources are getting their "news" from Hamas Harry.  You like to say that criticizing Israel does not mean that you hate Israel or Jews, but I gotta say, you seem quite invested in finding Israel to be (almost, maybe 49%) complicit in this.   

I’m actually not. I wish it wasn’t so. But again- I have read in several places that the IDF is firing at civilians who try to get to the aid centers where the food is. That is the specific charge that was first made (to my knowledge) by a spokeswoman from Doctors Without Borders who was reporting as an eyewitness. That is the specific charge which has caused me to accept the word “genocide.” 

[jerryskids 6,829]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I’m actually not. I wish it wasn’t so. But again- I have read in several places that the IDF is firing at civilians who try to get to the aid centers where the food is. That is the specific charge that was first made (to my knowledge) by a spokeswoman from Doctors Without Borders who was reporting as an eyewitness. That is the specific charge which has caused me to accept the word “genocide.” 

Sorry, but there is no credible evidence that they are.  TimHauck tried to post a Hamas Harry video of IDF shooting into sand dunes as evidence that they are systemically shooting at people; that stopped once it was pointed out to him.  And the doctor you referenced was not speaking as an eyewitness, but was relaying what a 12 yr old Palestinian told her.

You "wish" nothing of the sort.  You desperately wish to find Netanyahu a criminal, so you leap to believe anything to support that.  For instance, why is UNRWA sitting on truckloads of aid?  Because Israel insists on escorting it in.  Why is that?  The obvious answer is that UNRWA is complicit with Hamas, which I've posted and you haven't responded.  But your answer is... because UNRWA thinks IDF is going to mow down Palestinians at such drops?  Do you even think through these scenarios?

I know the answer.  

[TimHauck 2,908]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Thoughts from the Hamas apologists here?

Like RealTim said, there are no Hamas apologists here.

But if we were to play by your rules, how do we know the people driving the trucks are Hamas?  I’m sure there are still regular old criminals in Gaza too.

[jerryskids 6,829]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Like RealTim said, there are no Hamas apologists here.

But if we were to play by your rules, how do we know the people driving the trucks are Hamas?  I’m sure there are still regular old criminals in Gaza too.

Makes sense.  Regular old criminals, some 50-ish of them, in masks, fatigues, and automatic weapons, stole 4-5 large aid trucks and paraded through a downtown.  They probably aren't affiliated with Hamas at all.  That's the same as equating shooting sand dunes with shooting people.  Thanks for the correction.   

[TimHauck 2,908]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

Makes sense.  Regular old criminals, some 50-ish of them, in masks, fatigues, and automatic weapons, stole 4-5 large aid trucks and paraded through a downtown.  They probably aren't affiliated with Hamas at all.  That's the same as equating shooting sand dunes with shooting people.  Thanks for the correction.   

C’mon Jerry, the “sand dune” video included clear audio of people saying “woohoo! I think you got one!”   There have also been multiple whistleblowers from within the IDF and the US contractors that have acknowledged civilians at aid sites being shot.

For the record, I think it probably was Hamas in the trucks.  But there is more evidence that the IDF/GHF contractors are shooting civilians at aid sites, than that Hamas was driving those trucks.

[jerryskids 6,829]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

C’mon Jerry, the “sand dune” video included clear audio of people saying “woohoo! I think you got one!”   There have also been multiple whistleblowers from within the IDF and the US contractors that have acknowledged civilians at aid sites being shot.

For the record, I think it probably was Hamas in the trucks.  But there is more evidence that the IDF/GHF contractors are shooting civilians at aid sites, than that Hamas was driving those trucks.

The sand dune video was different than the video with the audio you referenced, which seemed to be a single rogue American.  I notice that you intentionally conflated that to "IDF/GHF contractors."

So, what is your percentage of responsibility for Hamas vs. IDF?  51%, 52% Hamas?  Lol.

[TimHauck 2,908]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The sand dune video was different than the video with the audio you referenced, which seemed to be a single rogue American.  I notice that you intentionally conflated that to "IDF/GHF contractors."

So, what is your percentage of responsibility for Hamas vs. IDF?  51%, 52% Hamas?  Lol.

Step 1. It’s not widespread

I don’t recall posting a different sand dune video, maybe someone else did.  And that was 2 guys talking to each other, maybe only 1 did the shooting but the other was celebrating it.  I used the slash because the other whistleblowers have said it was not just the GHF contractors.

I’d agree with RealTim.  Hamas is more than 51% responsible, but not 95%.  Maybe  about 66% if we’re talking about the aid specifically and don’t get into semantics of “it’s 100% Hamas’s fault there is a war at all!”  There’s additional nuance in the sense that I think there was more aid ultimately getting to Gazans previously, but some of it may have been first stolen by Hamas then sold at an upcharge to the people.  

Did you see Netanyahu specifically admit Israel was only providing “minimal” aid?

I suppose you’ll go back to “the UN can still deliver trucks but they don’t want to because the IDF wants to escort them but the UN wants to give it to Hamas.”  I wouldn’t say that’s the only potential reason they might not want to be escorted by the IDF.  If the reports are true of the IDF shooting aid seekers, they might think the IDF being there could cause confrontation which then puts them in additional danger.  That’s described in this article, which also points out that “criminal gangs” (not necessarily Hamas), have also stolen the aid.

https://apnews.com/article/aid-gaza-hunger-united-nations-e703faaaba945e838aabfb3c7fa32d70

[TimHauck 2,908]

One thing that might help get more accurate information of what’s actually happening out to the people is allowing journalists into Gaza.  But Israel won’t allow that.  Weird.

[jerryskids 6,829]

14 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Step 1. It’s not widespread

I don’t recall posting a different sand dune video, maybe someone else did.  And that was 2 guys talking to each other, maybe only 1 did the shooting but the other was celebrating it.  I used the slash because the other whistleblowers have said it was not just the GHF contractors.

I’d agree with RealTim.  Hamas is more than 51% responsible, but not 95%.  Maybe  about 66% if we’re talking about the aid specifically and don’t get into semantics of “it’s 100% Hamas’s fault there is a war at all!”  There’s additional nuance in the sense that I think there was more aid ultimately getting to Gazans previously, but some of it may have been first stolen by Hamas then sold at an upcharge to the people.  

Did you see Netanyahu specifically admit Israel was only providing “minimal” aid?

I suppose you’ll go back to “the UN can still deliver trucks but they don’t want to because the IDF wants to escort them but the UN wants to give it to Hamas.”  I wouldn’t say that’s the only potential reason they might not want to be escorted by the IDF.  If the reports are true of the IDF shooting aid seekers, they might think the IDF being there could cause confrontation which then puts them in additional danger.  That’s described in this article, which also points out that “criminal gangs” (not necessarily Hamas), have also stolen the aid.

https://apnews.com/article/aid-gaza-hunger-united-nations-e703faaaba945e838aabfb3c7fa32d70

From your link:

Quote

Large crowds of desperate people, as well as criminal gangs, overwhelm trucks as they enter and strip off the supplies. Witnesses say Israeli troops regularly open fire on the crowds, causing deaths and injuries.

LOL.  Shooting warning shots at sand dunes.  Or at criminal gangs.  

Why would this be different if IDF weren't escorting them?  Would criminal gangs and large crowds of desperate people stop overwhelming trucks?

Quote

At least 79 Palestinians were killed while trying to get aid entering Gaza this week, according to Gaza’s health ministry. 

Gaza's health minustry.  Lol to the Lol power.  I've got no words.

Of course Israel is interested in providing minimal aid.  They are at war with them.  That's why I didn't put 100% on Hamas; they could provide truckloads of fattened calves.  But oh noes, they dropped aid on the tents!

It's hard to have an adult conversation who puts only 2/3 of the responsibility on Hamas.  Carry on.

[jerryskids 6,829]

Also from the link:

Quote

An Israeli security official who was not allowed to be named in line with military procedures told reporters this week that the U.N. wanted to use roads that were not approved.

He said the army offered to escort the aid groups but they refused.

Hmm... UNRWA wanted to use unapproved roads, and when IDF offered to escort them, they refused.  Why do you think that is, either Tim?

[TimHauck 2,908]

9 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

From your link:

LOL.  Shooting warning shots at sand dunes.  Or at criminal gangs.  

Why would this be different if IDF weren't escorting them?  Would criminal gangs and large crowds of desperate people stop overwhelming trucks?

Gaza's health minustry.  Lol to the Lol power.  I've got no words.

Of course Israel is interested in providing minimal aid.  They are at war with them.  That's why I didn't put 100% on Hamas; they could provide truckloads of fattened calves.  But oh noes, they dropped aid on the tents!

It's hard to have an adult conversation who puts only 2/3 of the responsibility on Hamas.  Carry on.

I didn’t say I believed all their numbers.

Thanks for confirming Israel is at war with civilians though.

[jerryskids 6,829]

29 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I didn’t say I believed all their numbers.

Thanks for confirming Israel is at war with civilians though.

I didn't say they are at war with civilians.  They are at war with Hamas, the duly elected government of the Palestinians.  Tell me if you disagree with this.

Thanks for confirming you aren't a serious poster.

[TimHauck 2,908]

9 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I didn't say they are at war with civilians.  They are at war with Hamas, the duly elected government of the Palestinians.  Tell me if you disagree with this.

Thanks for confirming you aren't a serious poster.

No, they are not “duly elected” at this point, considering a majority of the people there probably weren’t even born the last time they won an election.

Lol at calling me not serious after you compared Netanyahu admitting they’re only providing “minimal aid,” to “fattened calves.” You said “of course Israel is interested in providing minimal aid. They are at war with them.”  No, they are not at war with probably 98% of the civilians trying to get the aid.   HTH

[TimHauck 2,908]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

One thing that might help get more accurate information of what’s actually happening out to the people is allowing journalists into Gaza.  But Israel won’t allow that.  Weird.

@jerryskids, why do you think this is?

[SUXBNME 1,516]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

@jerryskids, why do you think this is?

Because your mom is fat.

[jonnyutah 293]

Guys that isnt hamas it is other criminal gangs. Lol. 

[jerryskids 6,829]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

@jerryskids, why do you think this is?

Are you saying there are no journalists in Gaza?  How is Israel preventing this?  Is this why there are no videos of the systemic murder of civilians at aid sites?  I feel like we are circling around on this, since we've discussed it before.   

[jerryskids 6,829]

Interesting take on this situation from the Free Press.  The author's name looks Jewish, so I imagine the Tims will tell me he's biased, while also telling me that many Israelis hate what is going on.

I won't quote the whole thing, click here for the article.

https://www.thefp.com/p/haviv-rettig-gur-israels-winning?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Here is an interesting part though:

Quote

There’s a lot to say about this situation. Enough people have raised the alarm on moral and civilian-suffering grounds, including in The Free Press, that we don’t have to address it here. But it also represents a dramatic strategic mistake on the part of Israel. The whole concept of the strategy to use aid as pressure on Hamas was flawed at its very core. Why would Hamas blink first? Has the Israeli government met Hamas? Why did they think this was going to work with a group whose foundational strategy is Gaza’s destruction?

Tim, your take?  How does this fit into your 2/3 assessment?

[jerryskids 6,829]

9 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

No, they are not “duly elected” at this point, considering a majority of the people there probably weren’t even born the last time they won an election.

Lol at calling me not serious after you compared Netanyahu admitting they’re only providing “minimal aid,” to “fattened calves.” You said “of course Israel is interested in providing minimal aid. They are at war with them.”  No, they are not at war with probably 98% of the civilians trying to get the aid.   HTH

They are welcome to overthrow their duly elected government by their forefathers, whose foundational strategy is the destruction of the Palestinian people in fulfillment of their charter to eliminate Israel and kill all Jews worldwide.

Or do you think this is Israel's responsibility?

[The Real timschochet 6,843]

18 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Interesting take on this situation from the Free Press.  The author's name looks Jewish, so I imagine the Tims will tell me he's biased, while also telling me that many Israelis hate what is going on.

I won't quote the whole thing, click here for the article.

https://www.thefp.com/p/haviv-rettig-gur-israels-winning?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Here is an interesting part though:

Tim, your take?  How does this fit into your 2/3 assessment?

I think it’s both interesting and fits into my assessment. 
 

I want to move past this. We’re not getting anywhere. What, in your opinion, should Israel do now? 

[Horseman 2,478]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think it’s both interesting and fits into my assessment. 
 

I want to move past this. We’re not getting anywhere. What, in your opinion, should Israel do now? 

Carpet bombs.  

[The Real timschochet 6,843]

Actually I need to correct what I just wrote. The assertion that Hamas’ foundational strategy is Gaza’s destruction is not correct. Their foundational strategy is Israel’s destruction. Perhaps the writer made a typo? (Even if Hamas now believed that there is a gain achieved by Gaza’s destruction, it wouldn’t be “foundational”.) 

 

Actually I believe that Hamas has changed their strategy anyhow. Their new strategy is to stay alive and in power in Gaza. All other goals are subordinate to that. 

[jerryskids 6,829]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Actually I need to correct what I just wrote. The assertion that Hamas’ foundational strategy is Gaza’s destruction is not correct. Their foundational strategy is Israel’s destruction. Perhaps the writer made a typo? (Even if Hamas now believed that there is a gain achieved by Gaza’s destruction, it wouldn’t be “foundational”.) 

 

Actually I believe that Hamas has changed their strategy anyhow. Their new strategy is to stay alive and in power in Gaza. All other goals are subordinate to that. 

Well, if we are going to do a squissy-like pedantic argument, I'd argue that strategies fall below charter and objectives in the planning hierarchy:

Quote

In planning, charters, objectives, strategies, and tactics represent different levels of detail and scope. A charter outlines the purpose and scope of a project or initiative. Objectives are specific, measurable goals to be achieved. Strategies are broad plans of action to achieve those objectives. Tactics are the specific actions and steps taken to implement the strategies. 

"Foundational" might be a bit much, but it certainly fits into the "strategy" category.  But as I type this, I guess I've convinced myself that "foundational" does not fit with strategies in an organization, generally speaking.  So congrats I guess.   

[Strike 5,590]

23 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Actually I need to correct what I just wrote. The assertion that Hamas’ foundational strategy is Gaza’s destruction is not correct. Their foundational strategy is Israel’s destruction. Perhaps the writer made a typo? (Even if Hamas now believed that there is a gain achieved by Gaza’s destruction, it wouldn’t be “foundational”.) 

 

Actually I believe that Hamas has changed their strategy anyhow. Their new strategy is to stay alive and in power in Gaza. All other goals are subordinate to that. 

Let me ask you two simple questions, and the 2nd is premised on your answer to the first.  Do you think Hamas has ANY, even a .1 % chance of achieving your stated objective of theirs of destroying Israel?  My answer to that is no, they do not have the slightest chance of that happening.  If you concur, do you think they're retarded?  Because if they have zero chance of achieving their objective all they're accomplishing is the destruction of their own people.  if they're not retarded, they're doing it on purpose.

[TimHauck 2,908]

58 minutes ago, jonnyutah said:

Guys that isnt hamas it is other criminal gangs. Lol. 

Never said that, liar.

[TimHauck 2,908]

59 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Are you saying there are no journalists in Gaza?  How is Israel preventing this?  Is this why there are no videos of the systemic murder of civilians at aid sites?  I feel like we are circling around on this, since we've discussed it before.   

Wait you think outside journalists are free to move around Gaza?  They’re not, they can only be escorted by the IDF and are not allowed to interact with Palestinian civilians. It’s really only Palestinian journalists there, which gives people like you a convenient excuse to say all those people are Hamas.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/foreign-journalists-step-up-push-for-access-to-gaza-express-fear-for-hungry-colleagues/
 

[jerryskids 6,829]

39 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think it’s both interesting and fits into my assessment. 
 

I want to move past this. We’re not getting anywhere. What, in your opinion, should Israel do now? 

I think Israel should continue doing what it is doing.  Prevent UNRWA from helping Hamas to control the aid and its distribution, while continuing to offer aid to the Palestinian people.  Hopefully, rational, intelligent heads will prevail over the Hamas Harry/TikTok/disinformation going around about Israel killing hundreds nay thousands at aid sites$#@!

That being said, IMO the answer to the end of this is Qatar.  Trump needs to go to them and say I appreciate the plane and all, but you need to tell Hamas that their reign in Gaza is over.  Let them exile in your country if you want, or not, I don't give a shiot.  But if you don't, we're moving our primary ME base out of your country, and our future relationship will be... more strained.

I mean fock, we don't need Qatari money.  

[jerryskids 6,829]

8 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Wait you think outside journalists are free to move around Gaza?  They’re not, they can only be escorted by the IDF and are not allowed to interact with Palestinian civilians. It’s really only Palestinian journalists there, which gives people like you a convenient excuse to say all those people are Hamas.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/foreign-journalists-step-up-push-for-access-to-gaza-express-fear-for-hungry-colleagues/
 

Where are the videos from the Palestinian journalists?  Well, those who weren't part of the hundreds of journalists systematically killed by Israel. 

 

[TimHauck 2,908]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Interesting take on this situation from the Free Press.  The author's name looks Jewish, so I imagine the Tims will tell me he's biased, while also telling me that many Israelis hate what is going on.

I won't quote the whole thing, click here for the article.

https://www.thefp.com/p/haviv-rettig-gur-israels-winning?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Here is an interesting part though:

Tim, your take?  How does this fit into your 2/3 assessment?

My take is that it reads to me like the author admitted Israel is intentionally restricting aid.

I found a few other quotes interesting.  For example, this isn’t ideal: I’ve heard from journalists, pundits, even members of Congress—who all support Israel and believe in its fundamental decency—that they have been unable to get any meaningful answers from Israeli officials.

 

I also thought it was noteworthy that she at least acknowledges that “too many Gazans have died.”

 

One part I disagree with is this:

“Consider: If Hamas holds out and refuses a ceasefire, it will get a Palestinian state recognition from the United Kingdom. If it agrees to a ceasefire, it won’t get that recognition.  In other words, the British prime minister just incentivized Hamas to continue the war.“

You and I both know that the west isn’t going to allow Hamas to be involved in a Palestinian state.  So to say Hamas is incentivized by that potential is silly IMO.

[seafoam1 3,080]

Just now, TimHauck said:

My take is that it reads to me like the author admitted Israel is intentionally restricting aid.

I found a few other quotes interesting.  For example, this isn’t ideal: I’ve heard from journalists, pundits, even members of Congress—who all support Israel and believe in its fundamental decency—that they have been unable to get any meaningful answers from Israeli officials.

 

I also thought it was noteworthy that she at least acknowledges that “too many Gazans have died.”

 

One part I disagree with is this:

“Consider: If Hamas holds out and refuses a ceasefire, it will get a Palestinian state recognition from the United Kingdom. If it agrees to a ceasefire, it won’t get that recognition.  In other words, the British prime minister just incentivized Hamas to continue the war.“

You and I both know that the west isn’t going to allow Hamas to be involved in a Palestinian state.  So to say Hamas is incentivized by that potential is silly IMO.

what? 

[TimHauck 2,908]

6 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Where are the videos from the Palestinian journalists?  Well, those who weren't part of the hundreds of journalists systematically killed by Israel. 

 

There are tons of videos of the aftermath of killings, and of course videos where you can’t see who’s doing the shooting.  But I know you think that means it’s Hamas doing it.  But maybe people don’t like to stick around when there’s shooting going on?

[jonnyutah 293]

25 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Never said that, liar.

I opened the door and you walked right through it.